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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 17:29 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 17:15 morimacil wrote:On March 21 2011 15:53 Ribbon wrote:
Question: July went speedling expand every single game, but he never used it. Why didn't he try to kill MC's expo in game 1? Because MC had 7 sentries, which makes him immune to all melee units. 1. Did July know that? 2. The expo is wide open on Metal. Defending it with Sentries would have used up too many FFs and severely weakened his push. Not defending his "expo" would've tipped his hand.
1. Did you see the actual games?
2. He could've defended an actual speedling rush with those 7 sentrys, still cancel the nexus after and have an even more critical push because you've pumped out a lot of Zerglings and potentially even lost those instead of droning up to get enough sunkens and roaches in time.
Regarding your very first question, please try to Speedling rush ANY Master league protoss that goes 3 gate sentry expo. Now keep in mind that MC has the best micro of all Protoss in the world right now.
What does this tell you?
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I am zerg player and I mostly agree with the OP. July made some big mistakes and MC almost made none. So, MC deserved to win this series. I don't understand e.g. why july was always making lingspeed that early even when MC was going nexus first (or very early nexus).
+ Burrow does help.
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
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Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes.
Just some examples:
Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode
Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead
Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold
Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses
I just think that 1-2minor changes like putting overlordspeed or/and burrow to hatch-tech would just make it so much easier for Zerg to react and you would have more units than speedling on hatch tech.
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What I loved was that it took so many rounds of FF to kill july's units because sentries do such crap damage. MC's macro so good he was able to outproduce July even while building units at 100gas a pop. It was like watching root.destiny kill bronzies with queens.
Thank god MC didn't play a macro game so as to not humiliate July. MC macro so good.
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In chess we see that the initiative is often worth more than a pawn to grandmasters... that's in a game with full knowledge available... so let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Zerg being 'reactionary' in a game with limited knowledge is somehow a 'strength.'
The only chance for July to win in these games was for MC to make a large mistake. (see: hydra drop)
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On March 22 2011 01:29 ChoboCop wrote:
In chess we see that the initiative is often worth more than a pawn to grandmasters... that's in a game with full knowledge available... so let's not kid ourselves into thinking t
Yeah, it's a fucking imbalance. Plain and simple.
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yeah so in game one keeping units from his main away for more then a minute TOTALLY wasnt a factor
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The only chance for July to win in these games was for MC to make a large mistake. (see: hydra drop)
Thats not true. It was a guessing game since MC denied scouting.
If MC had made a mistake, then sure, july could have capitalized on it. But if hed guessed right, then it would have worked too.
For example, after his lair finished, he got a fast hydraden, and as soon as he got scouting info, he canceled hydra range, and got burrow and roaches, and died, because it was too late.
Apparently, his guess was starport, and he got a fast hydraden. If he had blindly gotten burrow and a bunch of roaches instead, well he would have had a good chance of winning the game.
In game 1 for example, he got an evochamber and a pretty fast lair. So his money was probably on phoenixes, or DTs. If instead, hed gotten more roaches and/or spines, by blindly guessing it was going to be a 4gate, hed have been fine.
Either the toss makes a mistake, and lets zerg get the needed information, or zerg has to make a blind guess. But if zerg guessed correctly, then zerg does have a chance at winning.
And as long as in 50% of the games, either toss makes a mistake, or zergs guess correctly, then the game will be "balanced", at least according to the blizzard standard for balance.
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The fact every 'why its not imba' basically revolves around stating force field did not do much that game inadvertently proves the exact opposite.
Why was it not 'roaches are not imba because x, stalkers not imba because y'
No, every one was 'ff did little this game, except stopping a few x'
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Saying FF is imba is like saying zergling speed is imba.
The mere presence of zergling speed defines build orders, building placement and early game map control.
There is a reason that the first question you ask yourself about a FE build is "but what about speedlings?"
but people accept it because that's how the game was designed.
FF allows the race with the fewest units to create tactically favored positions as to allow their small number of units to go toe to toe with the enemy. Most of the time July was outnumbered even without forcefields. In game 1 the ramp block prevented only 2 roaches from joining the fight. By the time the nat was finished, that's when a substantial number of roaches hatched. July simply built too little too late. That's what it was for most of the game. Not enough dudes even without forcefields. The forcefields just made him look bronze.
Zerg needed better macro that game is all.
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On March 21 2011 13:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 12:33 1Eris1 wrote:
All of these require different responses. Where as for the few things protoss has to be worried about, a good 3 gate sentry expand+slight variation depending on what is scouted can hold them off.
As I already said, I agree on you with Protoss having a bit more possible openings there. But atleast you CAN scout and react to them, I cannot scout what I listed unless the Zerg is also known as captain obvious. (if a Zerg uses pool first as July did, he will always get 4 or more zerglings to get mapcontrol and/or deny a pylon -> fake hatchery, cancel, control watch towers, snipe new probes, roach allin [not hard to do, really]) As for the banelings, you said I can stop them with some really good FF's etc - you're aware of the fact that a baneling bust usually does occur if you only have like one sentry? That's the point of it. And the only thing I could possibly do against it is put even more buildings behind or get a shit ton of cannons, simply because I do not even have the possibility of "getting out a handful of sentrys" after a forge FE, keep in mind you'll be on one Gate for quite a long time in that kind of situation. And that exactly is the big risk everyone still takes by going forge fe. I also do not really like the fact that you kind of dismissed my whole argument about it being a problem of SC2 itself more than being a race problem. I don't like all this "oh my race is so much worse than yours at x" behaviour, even tho my posts kinda seem to "defend" Protoss, but that's not really the case I'm just trying to point out some things that might not be too obvious from a Zerg's perspective. And yet again, I do not disagree with you on the fact that Zerg's scouting should be slightly improved (maybe make overlords a liiiiiil faster for example), I'm just trying to say Protoss could need an improvement in this regard as well. Even Terrans, despite having the most options to scout have trouble doing so before a certain amount of time IMO.
Sorry, you come off as saying that my scout is guranteed to work and thus I can react. That is not the case, it is almost never the case. A scouting probe has a far greater chance of seeing if I am roach rushing/etc then my sacced overlord does of seeing your stargate.
No I agree, SC2 scouting sucks, but considering Zerg has the most options it needs to scout for in any of the matchups, and requires more responses, when the other two races can do relatively safe builds and pump a couple extra units faster, where as zerg will often have to throw down a new an entire new tech and hope they can get it in time.
My main point is, there is no relatively safe build for zerg. Where as for protoss, a 3 gate expand is extremely safe, and can be adapted depeding upon what is scouted.
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On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses
Uhh it's not that easy.
If Protoss goes VRs and Zerg responds with Hydras, Protoss cannot simply go into defensive mode. Look at the game that July won, he simply dropped the main and won easily.
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On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses I just think that 1-2minor changes like putting overlordspeed or/and burrow to hatch-tech would just make it so much easier for Zerg to react and you would have more units than speedling on hatch tech.
Yeahhhh right... You dont know...
If the protoss goes fast collosus and zerg ling-roach or ling bane or mass roach all in, if the zerg play right he can easily win. A hydra push will destroy any protoss player going stargate and if zerg goes roach and the protoss goes voidray he can defend with 3 queen until the protoss as more than 3 void.
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On March 22 2011 05:50 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses Uhh it's not that easy. If Protoss goes VRs and Zerg responds with Hydras, Protoss cannot simply go into defensive mode. Look at the game that July won, he simply dropped the main and won easily.
the real complaint is that Zerg can't just spam mutabaneling and have to resort to units that move at a normal speed. The real complaint is thatyhey can't harrass with hydras and they can't aoe with roaches. The real complaint is that they have to use brute force vs Protoss and hence they don't feel all gosu with their micro and their banelng spreads.
The complaint is that they have to fight straight up.
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On March 21 2011 15:53 Ribbon wrote:
Question: July went speedling expand every single game, but he never used it. Why didn't he try to kill MC's expo in game 1?
Because there's no alternative. Hatch first is wrecked by cannons unless Protoss scouts waaaay late; speedless expand is wrecked by early stalker pressure. It's the same reason Protoss almost always get a robo against Terran, even if they use it for observers and little else.
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I like the OP's analysis of each game.
MC's strategies and mechanics were so flawless, and the wins were due to his perfect execution and a few crucial errors on July's part. The flashy FFs were just icing on the cake; they didn't auto-win any of his games.
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I don't think the OP's goal was to disprove that forcefields are OP, just make a solid argument that July vs. MC doesn't give us any real evidence in the matter. July had some big mistakes in scouting/reactions, and I don't think anyone sane would try to claim that July played on MC's level during those games. Games where the clearly better player wins shouldn't be used in the debate of whether or not a certain unit/race is OP.
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I have a real hard time with the critique that July made mistakes. He didn't have information he needed to do better, no doubt, but it's not possible to have perfect scouting information, especially as early-game zerg.
The biggest point is that MC used July's lack of knowledge to beat him like he stole something. The balance question really is: could July have stopped MC even with complete knowledge?
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Just look at MC's games against Ciara. He won game 1 with a 3-gate and no sentries, even when Ciara scouted it and saw the pylon. The attack worked because Ciara did a terrible job of reacting to it by not microing his zerglings and not building a single spine crawler. If you do something solid and your opponent completely messes up, you're going to win regardless of your army composition. MC is just so good that he doesn't make any mistakes, meaning that even the tinniest mistake by an opponent can cost them the game.
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On March 20 2011 18:17 ZeeMan wrote:
To me, it looks like you are starting with the conclusion, and then trying to justify it (In this case, the conclusion is, "There is no imbalance"). This is a poor way to conduct any analysis.
This. OP brings up some good points, but it's obvious that he decided it was not OP first, then started to find reasons for it.
In game 1, he states that Zergs have never seen a 4-gate followed by expo + cancel before, when in fact this has build has been used several times in the GSL already (probably 4-5+ times) and to great success.
He also overemphasizes the scouting mistakes by July when really it's nearly impossible to scout the Protoss's tech path before lair tech finishes. Sure you could sacrifice an overlord, but if the P spreads out his gates around his base there's no way to find all four before it goes down, so how is he supposed to know it's a 4-gate rather than a 3-gate sentry expand?
The rushing to hydras from July is probably also a response to the meta-game, where a phoenix/void ray opening is quite common in the matchup. We've seen plenty of times when the Protoss simply flies in with a few phoenix and pick off 3 queens + a bunch of overlords and ends up with a massive lead in the mid game simply because of how the BO's played out. Getting a hydra den AFTER the phoenix are in your base is too late.
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EPT
