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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
If anyone said that Morrow beat Jinro today not because he played a better game, but that zerg is just too easy and powerful, wouldn't you find that laughable? + Show Spoiler + Let's be fair, both the games Jinro lost he went CC first and got baneling busted. Hardly a matter of playing a better game so much as trying a stupid build and having it thrown back in your face imo  | ||
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Sajuuk7
134 Posts
Don't say JulyZerg had good scouting. These two statements do not conflict with each other. What does it mean when you combine these two statements? He scouted as best as he could. This is the way the game is built. Zerg can't scout building-blocked-cliff-ramped main bases with ground units. Overlords are slow and take a large amount of time to scout someone's entire main base. Overlord Speed and Overseer both require Lair, which will not be complete before the 8 min mark. Going 3 warpgates vs 6 warpgates requires wildly different responses from the Zerg player. If the Zerg doesn't scout them all, he is at huge risk for losing the game. Zerg is reactionary, which isn't a bad thing. It is a bad thing when Zerg's scouting is easily denied. This is not balance discussion. This is game design. | ||
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Clog
United States950 Posts
On March 21 2011 11:42 Darclite wrote: I like the OP, and I also can understand the logic of some of the counterarguments (i.e. the vulnerability of the hydra, the fact that early-midgame scouting is more important for zerg than protoss). But I think the problem everyone is having here is that a single series between only two players is the basis for the argument. For it to be a controlled experiment, we would need some perfect maps, a large sample size, two players of exactly equal skill, the players to feel the same way under pressure, and the matchup to be fully developed (which it isn't at this point). If we watched 1000 games between the top 1000 Protoss and the top 1000 Zergs in the world, then a better argument can be made. But I think MC just played better, to put it simply. Imbalance can account for winning a battle, perhaps, but not winning 4 of 5 games. + Show Spoiler + If anyone said that Morrow beat Jinro today not because he played a better game, but that zerg is just too easy and powerful, wouldn't you find that laughable? Well he won his games in very similar manners, heavy early warp gate pushes, almost always with numerous sentries and hence FF abuse. Not necessarily saying that is absolutely imbalanced, but if a given player was to use overpowered strategy X over and over and win, that doesn't make him good. I will say MC is probably the better player, but it was really disappointing to see him win in almost the same way every game. I'm not very comfortable with zerg's ability to deal with early sentry abuse at the moment. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On March 21 2011 11:26 iNfeRnaL wrote: While I do not disagree that Zerg DOES need a lot of scouting and July just barely missed some things (but come on, if you dont check whats behind the mineral lines - the most common place to hide things - that is kinda stupid as well isn't it?) I think it is kind of biased thinking of you there that you do not need any scouting before the observer (actually hallu is the faster option, IMO) - do you know what happens if you get baneling + massling busted if you do not have enough cannons and only 1 sentry out or so cause you went forge FE? Not to even speak of 1 base roach - yes I know that one is hard NOT to realize but July always went for pool first so it was definitely a possibility. What I was trying to emphasize is that scouting in GENERAL is a lot worse than in broodwar, for example. I do not think it is really a "Zerg-only" problem... Look at TvP for example, Terran has countless of good openings and Protoss cannot really tell which one until he got his observer. You see a barracks and maybe if you're lucky you'll be able to tell if he made a techlab or a reactor first. Great, isn't it? I am aware of the fact that in Broodwar I wasn't really able to scout the Terran either (but atleast kept it alive until he had 2-3 rines) before I had an observer, but it wasn't really dead-neccesary either. It was not like you could've died to a wraith rush if your obs was slightly late. I just think its a general mistake that Blizzard did, if you compare to how long early game lasted in broodwar it was not neccesary to have scouting info quite as early as in SC2, simply because the openings did not hard counter each other as blatantly as they sometimes do in SC2. I do agree with your point on TvP, but not for ZvP. In ZvP, the only early things you have to fear are roach allins, baneling busts, and lol 6 pools. Forge FE is a risky build, comparable to 14 hatch. There is a reason most zergs do speedling expands now, simply because most all ins are easier to hold off, and 14 hatch loses mathetmatically to 2 gate on a lot of maps. Roach all ins are almost always a given if the roach warren goes down before the hatchery (easily scoutable with a probe). Any later on roach all in comes down to micro, and a good 3 gate expand can hold it off, or be stopped with immortals or voidrays. A baneling bust is slightly harder to scout, but the timings still usually work out in that a probe can get in there. Even if you don't scout a baneling bust, it is still stopabble with good forcefield placement//good micro. I don't see any reason to comment on 6 pools. Now on the flipside, zerg has to watch for 4 gate (multiple variations) 4 gate blink stalker (slightly different then 4 gate) DT rush VR openers Phoenix openers 1 stargate+3gate all ins All of these require different responses. Where as for the few things protoss has to be worried about, a good 3 gate sentry expand+slight variation depending on what is scouted can hold them off. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10347 Posts
Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory. Only the first match, because that's the only time his army was actually denied being able to attack when the ramp was blocked off. In the other games, it wasn't the FFs but rather just the sheer advantage MC had. MC would hit way before July was ready. Even if his Roaches were able to micro away from Zealots and group up, MC still would have more Stalkers (if you replace Sentries with Stalkers) than Roaches, and Stalkers > Roaches (1 to 1 comparison). | ||
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ntrz
United States57 Posts
I'm betting that the first game with the nexus cancel really got in his head, and he just never quite recovered. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 12:33 1Eris1 wrote: All of these require different responses. Where as for the few things protoss has to be worried about, a good 3 gate sentry expand+slight variation depending on what is scouted can hold them off. As I already said, I agree on you with Protoss having a bit more possible openings there. But atleast you CAN scout and react to them, I cannot scout what I listed unless the Zerg is also known as captain obvious. (if a Zerg uses pool first as July did, he will always get 4 or more zerglings to get mapcontrol and/or deny a pylon -> fake hatchery, cancel, control watch towers, snipe new probes, roach allin [not hard to do, really]) As for the banelings, you said I can stop them with some really good FF's etc - you're aware of the fact that a baneling bust usually does occur if you only have like one sentry? That's the point of it. And the only thing I could possibly do against it is put even more buildings behind or get a shit ton of cannons, simply because I do not even have the possibility of "getting out a handful of sentrys" after a forge FE, keep in mind you'll be on one Gate for quite a long time in that kind of situation. And that exactly is the big risk everyone still takes by going forge fe. I also do not really like the fact that you kind of dismissed my whole argument about it being a problem of SC2 itself more than being a race problem. I don't like all this "oh my race is so much worse than yours at x" behaviour, even tho my posts kinda seem to "defend" Protoss, but that's not really the case I'm just trying to point out some things that might not be too obvious from a Zerg's perspective. And yet again, I do not disagree with you on the fact that Zerg's scouting should be slightly improved (maybe make overlords a liiiiiil faster for example), I'm just trying to say Protoss could need an improvement in this regard as well. Even Terrans, despite having the most options to scout have trouble doing so before a certain amount of time IMO. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
[b]Protoss does not need to know what is going on until they have an observer out. Now on the flipside, zerg has to watch for 4 gate (multiple variations) 4 gate blink stalker (slightly different then 4 gate) DT rush VR openers Phoenix openers 1 stargate+3gate all ins All of these require different responses. Where as for the few things protoss has to be worried about, a good 3 gate sentry expand+slight variation depending on what is scouted can hold them off. 4 gate is easily scouted with mass energy on nexus. (Variations are a bit harder) 4 gate blink stalker is easily scouted since he will have 2-3 stalker and no sentry or very few (1-2) which is already strange. If you arent happy enough, put a ling up the ramp and scout 5-6 stalker. DT rush is laughable... its like 6 pool. Even if not scouted, you should have lair up or at least a bit of gamesense to see he hasnt expended + he isnt 4 gating... VR and Phoenix openers can be dealt with 2-3 queen. Voidray are easier, phoenix hit later (since you need minimum 3-4 to do damage), the combinations of both is a all-in. Scout or not... if you hold it you win. 1 stargate + 3 gate ? Who does that. You'll see less sentry than usual again and less gas unit overall. Dont say scouting is soooo hard when a lot of these build can be scouted or at least you can eliminate to 1-2 that have the same response. Every race has a hard time scouting but dont say zerg is harder.[/QUOTE] | ||
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ROFLnub
12 Posts
[b] Now on the flipside, zerg has to watch for 4 gate (multiple variations) 4 gate blink stalker (slightly different then 4 gate) DT rush VR openers Phoenix openers 1 stargate+3gate all ins All of these require different responses. Where as for the few things protoss has to be worried about, a good 3 gate sentry expand+slight variation depending on what is scouted can hold them off. well honestly you have to scout a few variables. your initial drone scout should be looking at the chrono boosting. if its going heavy on probes id say thats leaning towards a 3 gate expand. then you want to see his 2nd unit that will be chasing out your drone. if its a stalker this leads heavily towards a 4 gate or maybe stargate. third priority of scouting is poking up the ramp with a single zergling very quickly. this will show you if his cyber core is being chronoboosted. now almost every build uses at least ONE boost on warpgate tech so its not an automatic, but by observing his energy usage earlier on this should be painting a better picture. 4th thing i would be scouting with is an overlord around 5:30 or so. you want to see if you can get a gateway count. sometimes you might not see anything, but you will at least see the units that are killing your overlord which can be a form of a tell as explained before. lastly you if you are not being 4 gated at the 5:50 6 minute mark you want to be looking for an expand. if you see it and sentries you know what is up (minus some oGsMC trickery) and if you do not see an expo going up after 6:30 you are gonna be watching for voidray or dark templar rushing. both of which can be helped with some spore crawlers. thats 5 major points that will help you A LOT. as a protoss player i know i do an equal ammount of scouting when im playing and i dont think its too much to ask for. but as far as reacting to this information you are asking the wrong person. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
*read a few pages, didn't read all* OP is trying to say forcefields were not the reason MC won, it was his build vs July's build that won. They helped him win, yes, but they did not turn the tide from a huge disadvantage into MC's favour. Yes, they are effective, yes they are good, no they are not imbalanced. That is what he's trying to say. Zerg is supposed to be reactionary. If you have a problem, play a different game because this will never ever, ever change. | ||
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
On March 20 2011 22:18 avilo wrote: I didn't see the finals, but from reading the OP, it seems he's totally unqualified to be analyzing the finals. Not to mention entirely downplaying just how strong forcefields are, and in the one analysis of why july won he says july "deserved the win by making hydras." Also, just like 50 other people are gonna post, the OP doesn't know what he's talking about when he says getting zealot/stalkers instead of sentries would have the same result. That's obviously not the case. yeah... QFT I did watch the finals though. FF's were great. MC's decision making was great. The current state of Zerg is atrocious. Zerg is definitely not broken; but it is definitely at a disadvantage with two players of equal skill > Diamond. All hail patch 1.3 when Zerg finally has a spell that can turn battles to their favor! It's just far too easy to Protoss and Terran to be abusive. How can a race be the worst defensively AND the worst offensively? WTF?! In chess we see that the initiative is often worth more than a pawn to grandmasters... that's in a game with full knowledge available... so let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Zerg being 'reactionary' in a game with limited knowledge is somehow a 'strength.' | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 14:51 ChoboCop wrote: QFT I did watch the finals though. FF's were great. MC's decision making was great. The current state of Zerg is atrocious. It really, really baffles me how many people are unable to read proper, yet again. I'm not even trying to insult you here, but you definitely missunderstood what the op was trying to say. He never said that MC's FF's weren't great at all, he said that MC's buildorders were so good and so well timed (or that July was off so much, put it however you want to!) that even if you put the equal amount of resources which had been used for Sentrys into Stalker or Zealot, he would have still won the battles and I do agree with him on it. (Even tho that's a LOT of theorycrafting there!) That is atleast the case for games 2, 4 and 5. For game 1, yes the FF's on the choke made it possible for MC to kill that hatchery which would not have been possible without FF's - but come on, the whole 4 gate wouldn't have been possible if July hadn't only realized it is a 4gate when MC had already completed half of the distance he needed to reach July's natural. edit: minor typo's ioi | ||
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
Also, July ovie scouted in the dt game but just missed seeing it? Was he supposed to send multiple ovies from all directions to MAKE SURE he didn't miss anything? Protoss doesn't really need to scout zerg... they just take the initiative with a timing attack and have a tier 1 unit that can cut your entire army in half and a choice of 3 tier 2 units that super-hard-counter. Terran and Protoss have the ability to pressure and attack without being allin. I challenge you to describe some zerg strategies that people cry OP/imba about... if you do, please compare the difficulty in execution versus say bancheese or 4gate or any of the 10+ attacks zerg just insta-loses to if they miss an injection or scouting is unlucky... | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
On March 20 2011 17:48 babysimba wrote: Right now the state of PvZ is like a game of luck with zerg on the losing end. For zerg to compete in a macro game with protoss, zerg needs to cut corners and have way more drones than protoss. Unlike in ZvT, when u can actually compete with equal amt. of drones. Larger army in ZvT means you can actually crush any smaller army moving out and proceed to drone up or even attack straight into their natural. Whereas in ZvP, the defensive capabilities of toss is just too strong. The only choice zerg has is to fend off any attacks protoss throw at them at the last minute. If toss knows you have a larger army than expected, he will just fall back and turtle knowing hes ahead of economy. And it's not really possible to kill any army moving out because they can just forcefield and retreat. Walking on an even more thin line than in ZvT for the decision between droning and army, this is reason why weird protoss timing attacks are so strong. Zerg not only has to guess when their attacks are coming, he has to guess what tech choice protoss is going. If you zerg users use hydras often, you will know that July is actually hoping is to aim for a very vulnerable period when toss tech up. This timing window is very small, but it is also the only period hydras are very strong in. Unfortunately, MC just didn't want to tech up that quickly and went for an aggressive approach instead. Many of you have asked why doesn't July goes for burrow roaches to be safe against 6gates all-in. And what happen if MC decides to goes for stargate tech too, building just a void ray for map control, delaying zerg's 3rd, while he himself goes expand to 3rd and turtle on 3 bases (with cannons for detection). RO32 MC vs July. This is the result of what will happen. Many of you think that July got crushed by macro in that game, but there's a deeper reason lying behind it. All these are due to imperfect information due to the scouting capabilities of zerg. Right now PvZ can be summarised into the following few points: 1. Scout 2. Believe in the info of what you have scouted, pray that toss doesn't mindf**k you. Macro approach Drone up as much as possible Pray toss doesn't attack you sooner than you expected. Examples: You think toss is going for an attack right after his +1 is completed, but he decides to cut probes and neglect all upgrades for a faster attack with more units. Also MC vs July Finals game 1 Aggressive approach Drone up, build an army with all resources and attack when you think toss is at a vulnerable phase. Pray that toss doesn't go army based and kills you before you can go aggressive.Pray that toss doesn't tech slower than expected (more defensive). Examples: The rest of MC vs July Finals games I agree with this a lot. MC is a better player then July, especially compared to the way that July played in the finals, but what was listed here is the reasons zerg has a lot of trouble in the zvp matchup.I find, in many of my games, even if I don't over react to protential timing attacks, and make it to the late game against a protoss with equal or better economy and upgrades, I can still do lose to a max push at least as often as not. There are really no bad timings in the game for protoss, but it is quite a minefield for zerg. Its an incrediably fragile matchup for a lot of reasons. July played poorly in the finals, but he reacted very similarily to the way most zergs react when playing defensively against protoss. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 15:17 ChoboCop wrote: Uhhh, how can he spend on the expo to fake July out and still just roll over him? -_- It was like 30 minerals lost. I think you overestimate how much money you lose for cancelling. He remade the nexus as 4 Stalkers basically. If you fail to understand this, I am sorry for you. I challenge you to describe some zerg strategies that people cry OP/imba about... if you do, please compare the difficulty in execution versus say bancheese or 4gate or any of the 10+ attacks zerg just insta-loses to if they miss an injection or scouting is unlucky... And no, I will not take the challenge because any kind of Imba discussion is simply not worth my time, because in my book you have no fucking right to cry imba until you are at the very top. If MVP would say that Protoss is so imba, that would maybe be an opinion that I would remotely care about. If your average TL.netter (read: you in this case.) does that, it is most likely (read: in 99,999999% of all cases) just because a better player outclassed you. There you got what you call "imba". | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On March 21 2011 15:53 Ribbon wrote: Question: July went speedling expand every single game, but he never used it. Why didn't he try to kill MC's expo in game 1? Because MC had 7 sentries, which makes him immune to all melee units. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 21 2011 17:15 morimacil wrote: Because MC had 7 sentries, which makes him immune to all melee units. 1. Did July know that? 2. The expo is wide open on Metal. Defending it with Sentries would have used up too many FFs and severely weakened his push. Not defending his "expo" would've tipped his hand. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Of course july knew MC had sentries. MC even did his very best to show the sentries to july. Id doesnt really matter if the push ends up being weaker, if the reason for that is that the zerg overproduced speedlings, and you killed all of them. | ||
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