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I added my responses within the post
On March 21 2011 04:17 Big J wrote:
Game 1:
confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion:
sac an overlord, start making roaches earlier
sentries weren't a main factor to win the game for MC
BUT MCs Gateway placement was really good, if MC intercepts the overlord that doesnt know where to look for the gateways it would be the same situation
and sentries where THE main factor in this 4gate push, the amount of sentries MC had garantied that July couldnt join forces when his Hatch was under attack.
July would have hold without the sentries
Me: I have said in my follow up posts zerg early game scouting is an issue, and I really do think it needs to be changed, but really July would have had to sac two overlords to spot it, not really realistic. There is no way to tell if he would have held without sentries but I don't really think your analysis contradicts that pumping roaches earlier would have meant July would have been fine which was the main point of my post.
Game 2:
confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion:
scout earlier, get earlier roach upgrades
BUT: after MCs fast expansion he was way behind and though his scout seemed late, it was a pretty fast one considering how much gas overseers cost and how much gas a zerg needs after hitting lair tech, with Hydra Den, Hydra Upgrade, Burrow, Roach Movement, Roach Burrow Movement all being necessary to have a stable army composition as Zerg against Protoss
Still even with the right upgrades and more units I think July could have only won with a double expand after Protoss 1gate expand. MC was just way ahead and could have done 3-4 different pushes all with a similar outcame.
me: your analysis doesn't contradict mine, either roaches with ups or hydras with ups would have been fine but July didn't commit to either.
Game 3:
confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion:
MC should have gone colossus or Templar against the Hydras
BUT: MC showed times and times again that you dont need colossus to beat Hydras of creep, if you have good Forcefield micro. He just didnt expect the drop, was out of position and July could take the game by surprise.
me: He hasn't shown that time and time again unless you can link me to another game besides game 5 where this happens, and in this game it was only because july was far out upgraded and did not have range. Until there is colossus or storm hydra's are supreme, hydra drop was just a pure build counter to what MC was doing, he was taking a risk and knew it
Game 4:
confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion:
July shouldnt have gone spire and go for a lot of Hydras or roaches with upgrades.
BUT: again MC was already way ahead with his DTs killing lots of units, forcing an early evo chamber + a spinecrawler and early overseers and even killing queen!
A 6gate is hard to hold without being behind, MC being able to counter Hydras with Gateway Units only makes it even harder. July loses.
Me: again your analysis doesn't contradict mine. The DTs were a brilliant way to get 6 gate up and July needed either roach or hydra with ups but had not committed to either. Keep in mind I lean towards roaches with burrow to stop 6 gate because hydra timings are later.
Game 5:
confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion:
Upgraded Roach Hydra would have crushed MCs 6gate push easily
BUT: again MC was way ahead after the Forge expand, his Sentry/Stalker Combo killed the "GatewayKillerUnit" Hydralisk without any trouble
Staying on creep wasn't possible as it would have meant that MC could have attacked Julys expansion through the rocks and would have had an even smaller terrain to fight on, making forcefields even more devastating
Me:I honestly wonder if you read my post, the hydras were at a huge upgrade disadvantage
My Conclusion:
-) always all in against a Protoss Forge expand, as a good Protoss wont give u another chance to attack
I think a double expand would also work, you don't necessarily need to all in but that is a legitimate response.
-) Blink and Forcefields in the hands of a potent Player make Gateway Units equal to Hydra/roach play, Warpgates give Protoss the same production capacity that a Zerg has (as even 10 Larvae can only produce 8 Units+2overlords. as Roaches are inferior to stalkers and cant shot air I consider this pretty even to 6gateway units)
Roach hydra is much stronger than pure gateway
-) Still I dont think MC has shown us the full potential Blink and FF have, there will be better players with better micro, while Zerg has only Burrow to use for the Roach Hydra Combo, which is inferior to Blink as blinked stalkers are out of range but still shoot, while burrowed roaches cant attack
burrowed roaches are better as long as no robo is out, i.e. a 6 warp gate
-) Zerg has to scout exactly what protoss does, while protoss doesnt need any scouting at all when they want to play a pressure build (the only game MC re scouted he lost!!!)
Zerg needs better early game scouting I agree
-) Zerg has no tech choices as spire gets denied by Stargate and Gateway play, against a well played 6gate you need all 3roach upgrades, and against Stargate play you need Hydras.
This is why they need to scout, to choose the right order of your composition.
-) Protoss are developing into Zerg 2.0 being able to expand at nearly same speed, having more choices early (5+ different 1base attacks) and midgame(4+ different 2base attacks) and close to the same production capazity if wanted/needed.
Me: Too early to make metagame claims like that
I dont want to whine about the MU being imbalanced, BUT imo Protoss just has way too many options in the MU and Protoss mistakes are way more forgiving than Zergs.
PS: I dont want to bash on you confusedcrib, but I think you are way to easy on saying: "July should have done that and he would have won easily" and not taking in consideration that even if July scouts more/earlier he might miss some/many things MC does + MC might just go for "fake buildings" if July keeps on sending overlords in
And I think July didnt play so bad, but MC was just better + luckier (July did never prepare blindly for the gateway attacks, missed the Dark Shrine with his scout, blindly 6gating and July going for burrow late, being at Julys base with his 4gate right before the roaches could get down the ramp)[/QUOTE]
thank you for your legitimate response, but I don't necessarily think we are disagreeing about as many things as your "BUT"s imply
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Yeah, we get your point confusedcrib
July should have commited earlier to the correct response, before he had any chance to see what MC was actually doing, and then he would have been fine.
I dont disagree.
The fact of the matter is, as soon as he had some actual scouting information, july fully commited to the correct response, and it wasnt enough. He would have needed to start fully commiting to the correct response, before he had any chance to see what the actual threat was.
Which is exactly as hard and as much of a gamble as it sounds.
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The reason people hate FF--
It puts the game in ONE players hand... Examples..
Two equal armies meet Toss is good with FF and theres nothing you can really do
Two equal armies meet toss is bad with FF and you roll him
those are the two outcomes :/
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On March 21 2011 05:05 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 16:17 MrBitter wrote:On March 20 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote:
So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense? He's saying its not imba, and while they secured MC's victory they wouldnt've been necessary for him to win because of july's mistakes Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory. hrmmm why did I expect the 12 weeks with the pros guy to have an understanding of how RTS works... Really disappointing to see that you missed like 90% of the take away points from the games. Your analysis is a good exampple as to why alot of players are plateauing in SC2 right now
Go rewatch the first game of the Finals, skip to the 50:45 mark. If July's units could have gotten down the ramp, he could have saved his expansion and beaten the 4gate - although all his natural's drones died, it was still a winnable position.
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On March 21 2011 05:21 morimacil wrote:
Yeah, we get your point confusedcrib
July should have commited earlier to the correct response, before he had any chance to see what MC was actually doing, and then he would have been fine.
I dont disagree.
The fact of the matter is, as soon as he had some actual scouting information, july fully commited to the correct response, and it wasnt enough. He would have needed to start fully commiting to the correct response, before he had any chance to see what the actual threat was.
Which is exactly as hard and as much of a gamble as it sounds.
Haha I actually agree with you, people should complain about Zerg scouting abilities, not Forcefield.
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On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote:
So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense?
why start being bm ? its his oppinion.
i say in 1-2 games the FF was deciding, the others it was 100% not.
in the games where FF was deciding, july made HUUUGE mistakes on position offcreep etc etc so ff just did so well cause of julys mistakes
sometimes it feels like p makes storms, dropps, tech to tech3 fokus with immortel on roaches, blink, position rewarp while fight forcefields
and often z just do MASS UNITS and go A MOVE and then z is wonder why they cant win with tech1 tech2 units when making a move ... i really feel alot of zergs have to improve the way they fight
i am not a zerg but i think about double nydus, or drop in p main while p go out to attack and THEN make nydus JUST to go back (so u cant kill it to not get "dropped") and be back in time to defend while kicked half main
etc etc even 1 nydus with 10 zerglings in a fight would not make a big difference but in the p main they would ...
also attacks from more sides (only when super big space cause of forcefields ?) and when p play so sentry heavy a FEW ultras (even if u just use them for forcefield break) perhaps even ultra drop on forcefield 
i just trolling some ideas but rly all i see is god damn zerg a move
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Well I think we dont disagree on so many points as my capital BUTs might suggest.
But I think that July did a pretty good job reacting as soon as he saw MCs 6gates, still he got crushed.
Where I disagree with you is, when I read that "he should have made more/earlier..." as he simply had no clue what was coming at him, and when you dont go hydralisks after lair and instead go for roaches+fast upgrades you might get a 4gate+SG attack with 3-4 VoidRays or simply 5-6phoenix in your face and straight up lose because you wanted burrow a little earlier at the cost of not getting any variation.
And I dont think that Hydras with Range are superior to a good Warpgate player, as through Forcefields only half of the hydras will fight against the stalkers which lose in a 1v1 situation without micro only barely!
The reason for Hydras beeing considered GatewayKillers is, that the Hydras are smaller than Stalkers which means there are more actual fighting units for the zerg, but good Forcefields do even that out.
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On March 21 2011 05:38 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 05:21 morimacil wrote:
Yeah, we get your point confusedcrib
July should have commited earlier to the correct response, before he had any chance to see what MC was actually doing, and then he would have been fine.
I dont disagree.
The fact of the matter is, as soon as he had some actual scouting information, july fully commited to the correct response, and it wasnt enough. He would have needed to start fully commiting to the correct response, before he had any chance to see what the actual threat was.
Which is exactly as hard and as much of a gamble as it sounds. Haha I actually agree with you, people should complain about Zerg scouting abilities, not Forcefield.
Well the problem can be seen either way really.
I mean, if forcefields were strong defensively, but not offensively for example, then making a bunch of sentries to fake a 3gate expand, but instead attacking with them would be a lot weaker.
And you wouldnt need burrow to deal with a 6gate push, so you wouldnt have to scout it in advance to be able to react to it.
So really, both options are viable. Better scouting to be able to actually see the incoming sentry push, and react in time, or less powerful sentries, so that the current scouting is enough to react in time.
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and often z just do MASS UNITS and go A MOVE and then z is wonder why they cant win with tech1 tech2 units when making a move ... i really feel alot of zergs have to improve the way they fight i am not a zerg but i think about double nydus, or drop in p main while p go out to attack and THEN make nydus JUST to go back (so u cant kill it to not get "dropped") and be back in time to defend while kicked half main etc etc even 1 nydus with 10 zerglings in a fight would not make a big difference but in the p main they would ... also attacks from more sides (only when super big space cause of forcefields ?) and when p play so sentry heavy a FEW ultras (even if u just use them for forcefield break) perhaps even ultra drop on forcefield i just trolling some ideas but rly all i see is god damn zerg a move
Yeah those are nice ideas, but at least I were never able to pull them off:
Nydus Worms are expensive and if you ever where in the position when you went back to defend and those units just couldn come out fast enough as it doesnt matter if you unload a Zergling or a Ultra you get really pissed with that very gas heavy style of countering.
And Ultras against Forcefields: going Infestation Pit+ Hive+ Ultra Cavern takes around 4min. Then you need another 70sec for an Ultra to spawn. Its impossible to rush them against Gateway attacks and low ultra numbers get outmicroed by stalkers, so your kind of back to Zergling/baneling, roach, hydra with FF being strong against all of them (except for Roaches with Burrow and without detection)
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I was actually disappointed that July didn't just go for a baneling bust/roach rush in each of the games, I felt like MC's openings were kind of greedy in a couple of the games...anyone who actually knows what they are talking about (eg. not some plat n00b like me) want to comment on this?
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Are you kidding me? Am I the only one who watched MC repeated FF the ramp and trap more than 50 roaches in the entire series with FFs? FFs are a non-factor? Really?
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The FFs were a giant factor in games 1, 2, and 5. Replace the army with a more stalker centered army instead of the sentries and we would have seen a 4-1 July over MC.
Protoss army is too weak with FFs and too powerful with FFs. It's kinda like there is no happy medium.
tbh I'd be quite surprised if the OP was above platinum level.
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On March 21 2011 06:34 lkjewq wrote:
The FFs were a giant factor in games 1, 2, and 5. Replace the army with a more stalker centered army instead of the sentries and we would have seen a 4-1 July over MC.
Protoss army is too weak with FFs and too powerful with FFs. It's kinda like there is no happy medium.
tbh I'd be quite surprised if the OP was above platinum level.
You can't just replace sentries with stalkers... Sentries are a critical unit to Protoss armies, and removing Force Fields is not the answer.
July simply was not ready for MC's sentry heavy style, and didn't react properly. Like ConfusedCrib said, there are ways July could have reacted to counter MC more effectively.
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i am not a zerg but i think about double nydus, or drop in p main while p go out to attack and THEN make nydus JUST to go back (so u cant kill it to not get "dropped") and be back in time to defend while kicked half main
etc etc even 1 nydus with 10 zerglings in a fight would not make a big difference but in the p main they would ...
also attacks from more sides (only when super big space cause of forcefields ?) and when p play so sentry heavy a FEW ultras (even if u just use them for forcefield break) perhaps even ultra drop on forcefield
Great! What a stroke of GENIUS....I mean...how dumb we all are, poor mortals who DO play zerg and havent thought about using NYDUS, cmon! July and Nestea and all the rest really owe you one man!
Now on a more serious note: Im fed up of hearing non-zerg players cry "NYDUS!" whenever a zerg reports serious problems. I mean...yeah, nydus isnt used much and its a flashy and cool thing...but that doesnt make it the be all end all.
Moreover, nydus is really expensive in gas thats early on, takes FOREVER to pop, can be killed by workers before it does pop AAND screeches loudly before starting to pump out units one zergling at a time. I wont even talk abput double nyduses at that stage of the game: it equals zero roaches for your defense.
A MESSAGE TO ALL THE ZERG PLAYERS WHO ARE FED UP OF HEARING THE WORD NYDUS FROM NON-ZERG PLAYERS: in the future, each time a toss complains about how difficult it is to win against zerg or terran...tell him to use HALLUCINATION more!! Or WARP PRISM!! Yeah...who doesnt think a good warp prism in the back o´the base will seal the deal??
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On March 21 2011 06:41 Venomous Drone wrote:Show nested quote +i am not a zerg but i think about double nydus, or drop in p main while p go out to attack and THEN make nydus JUST to go back (so u cant kill it to not get "dropped") and be back in time to defend while kicked half main
etc etc even 1 nydus with 10 zerglings in a fight would not make a big difference but in the p main they would ...
also attacks from more sides (only when super big space cause of forcefields ?) and when p play so sentry heavy a FEW ultras (even if u just use them for forcefield break) perhaps even ultra drop on forcefield Great! What a stroke of GENIUS....I mean...how dumb we all are, poor mortals who DO play zerg and havent thought about using NYDUS, cmon! July and Nestea and all the rest really owe you one man! Now on a more serious note: Im fed up of hearing non-zerg players cry "NYDUS!" whenever a zerg reports serious problems. I mean...yeah, nydus isnt used much and its a flashy and cool thing...but that doesnt make it the be all end all. Moreover, nydus is really expensive in gas thats early on, takes FOREVER to pop, can be killed by workers before it does pop AAND screeches loudly before starting to pump out units one zergling at a time. I wont even talk abput double nyduses at that stage of the game: it equals zero roaches for your defense. A MESSAGE TO ALL THE ZERG PLAYERS WHO ARE FED UP OF HEARING THE WORD NYDUS FROM NON-ZERG PLAYERS: in the future, each time a toss complains about how difficult it is to win against zerg or terran...tell him to use HALLUCINATION more!! Or WARP PRISM!! Yeah...who doesnt think a good warp prism in the back o´the base will seal the deal??
But just blindly labeling a unit as OP is no way to play a strategy game. It's through trying out the lesser used strategies that the game evolves.
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On March 21 2011 03:12 setmeal wrote:Too busy watching TSL3 now to type out a full reply but I've got another example. Check out 7:30min. Idra vs Minigun
Like your other example, Zerg got absolutely stomped. And at the end, Idra's demise was hugely helped along by a bunch of baneling-eliminating FFs.
I honestly don't know enough to declare anything imbalanced, but there's a ridiculously huge edge in flexibility and forgiving strategies in this matchup. As a zerg player, this is what frustrates me (I lose to a lot of protoss who one-base), but it's a fact that is pervasive through all levels of play.
The feel I got from these matches was that July and MC like to play very similar styles. I'd agree that July didn't look like himself - probably and reasonably scared of the power of MC aggression (their history doesn't help July any) - but MC out-July'd July. He was excessively, endlessly aggressive with low-tech units and gateway is way stronger than hatch tech. July didn't have time to tech or upgrade, he was in constant crisis mode because of MC's aggression.
Basically, the exact same persistent aggression that allowed July to roll all those great Terrans this season was utilized against him to great effect.
While it took MC's typical perfect execution to make July look that bad (which is the main reason I am not convinced this matchup is imbalanced), you really have to wonder if there was anything that could have happened differently to give July a win. OPs suggestions certainly ring hollow, as even if July had the maphack he would have needed to read the BossToss's play, a successful defense isn't going to give you a win over MC, and these builds really weren't all-in.
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Thanks for the well-thought OP. I think you pinpointed the ways in which July fell apart, and give proper credit to MC. Would be nice to hear a bunch of pros elaborate further on what happened with the builds, and why some of the choices were made. I think more than anything the games were mental warfare, and MCs initiative, planning and confidence crushed July.
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Lesser used strats are lesser used because there is no actuall gain.
Metagame currently doesnt shift because of lesser used strategies getting more dominant but rather dominant strategies getting pretty much blindly countered.
PvZ is a prime example for such a shifting metagame.
A some months ago there was no dreaded deathball. Muta ling was actually a fine strategy.
Protoss learned to defend muta ling
Protoss learned how to FE safely
Protoss learned how to build an "invincible" army
What did zerg learn in all that time?
Most people like to state that the game is still young and zerg still have to learn, to evolve and come up with great new strategies.
But that doesnt happen. Zerg still sticks with the same strategies which they had start on. "Get more income, get a shitload of units and keep throwing them at your opponent untill he chokes on it"
Protoss learned how to cut the unit cake in smaller more mouthfriedly pieces.
Nearly every single change in the zerg metagame was not credited to a innovative player, but to actual buffs/nerf in the game.
Zerg just doesnt feel "complete".
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On March 21 2011 07:27 Charon1979 wrote:
Zerg just doesnt feel "complete".
That's an interesting way to state the issue. I tend to agree. MrBitter got specific with what the missing piece was: an army your opponent can't attack into.
Roaches are flexible, but Zerg doesn't have anything like a siege tank or colossus.
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i have to agree with all the zergs here. A large factor why zerg couldnt react properly is that they are playing blind. Sacing an overlord wont cut it most of the times especially with a very good protoss denying scouting and building placements. poking up the ramp to check unit composition is only good when toss is playing shitty showing you his cards.
In the finals, it does look like FF is so strong but what really makes it strong/glaring is that zerg isnt prepared.
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EPT
