|
July never sacked an overlord in to see what protoss' production was
Well, if I remember correctly, MC was at the bottom left position. And his 4 gates were around and between his minerals and his ramp (but left enough from the ramp not to be scouted by a ramp-ling). A sacrificial overlord would not have been able to scout the 4 gate build : it would have been killed before reaching the hidden position. Great building placement by MC, but I have no idea how July could have scouted it.
Sentries were not the main factor in winning this game, the sentries were just there to convince the 3 gate expand. Had July seen what MC was doing he could have easily won.
True (maybe not easily but possibly). Unfortunately I'm not sure if July could have seen what MC was doing. Given the sentry (and ofcourse the nexus) presence, it was obvious from July's POV that MC was going to expand. My opinion and current trend is that the zerg is forced *not* to drone like July did, for safety's sake. More queens and crawlers if defensive, otherwise more lings if offensive (or both if defensive as well). If you are playing semi-blind, you have to choose between taking risks or playing safe, and I suppose that July took the risk of making many drones (and payed for it).
For Zerg: The importance of scouting and tech timings based upon that scouting.
July tried to scout alot, but MC prevented the scouting by using intelligent building placement and scout interceptions. Maybe not scoutable at all in the "game 1 case". I clearly remember that July scouted more than once with a little pack of lings (and lost a few of them) to be certain that the nexus was not going to be cancelled (he tested the area 3 times in a row iirc). But it should now probably be scouted beyond construction to be 100% sure (which IMO costs alot of scouting lings and blind safety requirement until the nexus pops, if you play on maps where it is possible to make a perfect hidden building placement + watching for the incoming overlords)..
In my opinion, if you are a protoss player and want to improve your PvZ, you must study the positioning of your 3 or 4 gates (or stargate or whatever) for each map and start-position to know a "blind spot" like in G1. By doing so, you force the Z player to either play risky ( = the toss wins if he 4-gates) or to play safely ( = less drones). The key for this is to find a place where it is impossible for an overlord to float without being killed by a stalker or sentry - and to use patrols to see the incoming sac-overlord at all costs (which is not costly).
That place can then be used to put 3 gates or 4 gates or 3 gates+stargate or 3 gates+council or 3 gates+robo, all of which can be mixed in with a fake or real nexus expand. The key fact that it is possible on many maps to prevent the Z from scouting your early tech-tree entirely (which requires patrolling) is very important.
I think that it is technically possible to hide it on every single tournament-pooled map, but I'm not sure if it's humanly possible to make the correct patrolling perfectly and every game. Hmm unless maybe if you are a Korean with enough experience 
Note that my input to this discussion does not include the (rarer) cases of the proxies. Ofcourse a proxied stargate will not have the same effect as a stargate hidden in your base, just for the particular dynamics it creates by its exotic location and rush distance. Hm I'm tired.
|
On March 22 2011 06:01 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 05:50 randplaty wrote:On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses Uhh it's not that easy. If Protoss goes VRs and Zerg responds with Hydras, Protoss cannot simply go into defensive mode. Look at the game that July won, he simply dropped the main and won easily. the real complaint is that Zerg can't just spam mutabaneling and have to resort to units that move at a normal speed. The real complaint is thatyhey can't harrass with hydras and they can't aoe with roaches. The real complaint is that they have to use brute force vs Protoss and hence they don't feel all gosu with their micro and their banelng spreads. The complaint is that they have to fight straight up.
So the complaint is that zerg isn't protoss or terran? What are you trying to say here?
|
To OP author,
I'm not sure that it's possible to state with high certainty that something is balanced or unbalanced from watching a small subset of games. It takes a lot of analysis to determine balance using a large sample of games instead of five. The rather glib criticisms of July's play seem like a pretty flimsy justification. For instance, you said that July should have scouted better in game 1, but how was July supposed to scout the placement of those 3 extra WGs? They were located in an extremely difficult location to scout: to the south of the nexus next to the wall in the corner. July's overlord would have either had to fly from the right over the natural or move over a large portion of main base before getting vision of that small corner area. The only way he could have done better would have been to see the nexus cancel, but that would have bought him and extra 10 seconds before the vision tower spotted the push. Would 10 seconds have improved July's chances? I have no answer to that.
I think oGsMC played phenomenally well and fully deserves the win having come up with fantastic builds that were executed perfectly.
|
On March 22 2011 07:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 06:01 lorkac wrote:On March 22 2011 05:50 randplaty wrote:On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses Uhh it's not that easy. If Protoss goes VRs and Zerg responds with Hydras, Protoss cannot simply go into defensive mode. Look at the game that July won, he simply dropped the main and won easily. the real complaint is that Zerg can't just spam mutabaneling and have to resort to units that move at a normal speed. The real complaint is thatyhey can't harrass with hydras and they can't aoe with roaches. The real complaint is that they have to use brute force vs Protoss and hence they don't feel all gosu with their micro and their banelng spreads. The complaint is that they have to fight straight up. So the complaint is that zerg isn't protoss or terran? What are you trying to say here?
Zerg loves using banelings and mutas and zerglings.
Vs toss, they have to use roaches and hydras--so they QQ.
They see July use banelings vs toss (anypro) and get excited.
He then dies to MC, so they QQ because their hope died with him.
Nothing in what I said is about protoss or Terran strats. Zerg have the cheapest aoe unit and the most manueverable/fast harass unit. Zerg gets map control the fastest and Zerg gets the best late game production.
Now they see toss being aggressive so they have to 2base, so they QQ.
Do I need to spell it out for you more?
|
After watching iNControl's stream + GSTL games today, I wonder why more Zergs aren't utilizing 2 early spine crawlers to cut down on the number of units they need to produce + hardcounter sentries (if they scout what appears to be a 3 gate expand).
After watching IMLosira play in GSTL today, his PvZ looks way more solid than JulyZerg. I think we just saw JulyZerg get outplayed more than we saw any evidence of balance issues with sentries.
|
On March 22 2011 08:07 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 07:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On March 22 2011 06:01 lorkac wrote:On March 22 2011 05:50 randplaty wrote:On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses Uhh it's not that easy. If Protoss goes VRs and Zerg responds with Hydras, Protoss cannot simply go into defensive mode. Look at the game that July won, he simply dropped the main and won easily. the real complaint is that Zerg can't just spam mutabaneling and have to resort to units that move at a normal speed. The real complaint is thatyhey can't harrass with hydras and they can't aoe with roaches. The real complaint is that they have to use brute force vs Protoss and hence they don't feel all gosu with their micro and their banelng spreads. The complaint is that they have to fight straight up. So the complaint is that zerg isn't protoss or terran? What are you trying to say here? Zerg loves using banelings and mutas and zerglings. Vs toss, they have to use roaches and hydras--so they QQ. They see July use banelings vs toss (anypro) and get excited. He then dies to MC, so they QQ because their hope died with him. Nothing in what I said is about protoss or Terran strats. Zerg have the cheapest aoe unit and the most manueverable/fast harass unit. Zerg gets map control the fastest and Zerg gets the best late game production. Now they see toss being aggressive so they have to 2base, so they QQ. Do I need to spell it out for you more?
So your point is that zergs are crying... because a valid style of play... which saw no use in the finals... was somehow proved invalid because the player who used it previously lost in the finals... and that zergs are upset at protoss earlygame for the sole reason of they have to 2base, instead of having half their army nullified or having no viable way of scouting earlygame?
Did you even watch the finals? Have you ever played zerg against protoss or even protoss against zerg?
|
On March 22 2011 08:11 Snaphoo wrote:
After watching iNControl's stream + GSTL games today, I wonder why more Zergs aren't utilizing 2 early spine crawlers to cut down on the number of units they need to produce + hardcounter sentries (if they scout what appears to be a 3 gate expand).
After watching IMLosira play in GSTL today, his PvZ looks way more solid than JulyZerg. I think we just saw JulyZerg get outplayed more than we saw any evidence of balance issues with sentries.
Because if you place down spines and they don't attack, you're behind all those minerals for nothing?
Zerg's don't make that many units early unless they're under pressure - they can't, or they're behind.
|
Because if you place down spines and they don't attack, you're behind all those minerals for nothing?
Perhaps it's not as clear because I didn't include replays, but with regard to 2 spinecrawlers:
- If Protoss DOESN'T pressure/attack at all after your second base is up, you should be able to get far ahead by droning up and feeling very safe.
- If Protoss DOES pressure (as every competent 3 gate expand will do) then you can cheat by making many fewer lings/roaches in the early game, more than making up for the 200 minerals/2 drones that would have had to go into lings/roaches after Toss ("shark mode") brought a ball of sentries/stalkers near your creep and then walked off.
- If Protoss DOES ATTACK with 3gates or a surprise 4 gate, then you can create units, and a sentry-heavy composition will have far more difficult attacking near your ramp because of the spine crawlers. They tank damage, they have great range, and they can't be force-fielded. 2 spinecrawlers are far more fearsome than even 2 dozen lings in my experience as Toss, and for far fewer drones.
Finally: iNControl has lost games to this style, and IMLosira has used it to great success in PvZ-- this isn't gold-level theorycrafting, this is a strategy used in the GSL by a Code S Zerg to great effect.
|
On March 22 2011 08:28 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +Because if you place down spines and they don't attack, you're behind all those minerals for nothing? Perhaps it's not as clear because I didn't include replays, but with regard to 2 spinecrawlers: - If Protoss DOESN'T pressure/attack at all after your second base is up, you should be able to get far ahead by droning up and feeling very safe. - If Protoss DOES pressure (as every 3 gate expand will do) then you can cheat by making many fewer lings/roaches in the early game, more than making up for the 200 minerals/2 drones that would have had to go into lings/roaches after Toss ("shark mode") brought a ball of sentries/stalkers near your creep and then walks off. - If Protoss DOES ATTACK with 3gates or a surprise 4 gate, then you can create units, and a sentry-heavy composition will have far more difficult attacking near your ramp because of the spine crawlers. They tank damage, they have great range, and they can't be force-fielded. 2 spinecrawlers are far more fearsome than even 2 dozen lings in my experience as Toss, and for far fewer drones.
Maybe we're thinking about different 3 gate expands :S most of the ones I see are almost all sentries, and they almost never pressure unless zerg tries to fast third.
|
Maybe we're thinking about different 3 gate expands :S most of the ones I see are almost all sentries, and they almost never pressure unless zerg tries to fast third.
Whoa, yes, then we're definitely thinking of different expansion styles; most 3 gates I see at least poke around with watchtowers and stuff with their mini-deathballs of sentry/stalker in the early game to feign pressure and force Z to create units.
But even assuming you're playing against a 3 gate sentry build that doesn't expand: you're so very safe! Don't you normally build a few extra lings during early game "just in case" P attacks? Instead of those 8 zerglings, get 2 spinecrawlers.
EDIT: Also, to be fair to JulyZerg, I think that Losira may have favored this style after seeing MC's heavy use of early sentries against Z and strategizing how to stop it with NesTea, so this may be a reaction to MC's play rather than simply a better way of dealing with it.
|
On March 22 2011 08:34 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe we're thinking about different 3 gate expands :S most of the ones I see are almost all sentries, and they almost never pressure unless zerg tries to fast third. Whoa, yes, then we're definitely thinking of different expansion styles; most 3 gates I see at least poke around with watchtowers and stuff with their mini-deathballs of sentry/stalker in the early game to feign pressure and force Z to create units. But even assuming you're playing against a 3 gate sentry build that doesn't expand: you're so very safe! Don't you normally build a few extra lings during early game "just in case" P attacks? Instead of those 8 zerglings, get 2 spinecrawlers. EDIT: Also, to be fair to JulyZerg, I think that Losira may have favored this style after seeing MC's heavy use of early sentries against Z and strategizing how to stop it with NesTea, so this may be a reaction to MC's play rather than simply a better way of dealing with it.
Nah, I usually don't worry about toss pressure at all until I'm at least at lair and looking to get roaches with speed and burrow into thirds D: the reasoning is that if I mass a lot of roaches and zerglings, and he has sentry/stalker instead of almost all sentries, I think I can kill him, especially if he's halfway across the map (I could be wrong though..)
|
@MonsieurGrimm
yes, I have played Zerg against diamond level Protoss. Yes, I know it's hard. Yes, I wish Zerg could fast expand without needing static defenses just like either Protoss or Terran.
It's silly that when Protoss fast expands that they don't need to build cannons or make units to defend. It's silly that Protoss doesn't have to stop worker production when they 4gate or 6gate. Oh wait a minute, they do don't they?
When Protoss plays aggressive (4-6 gate) they stop worker production just like a Zerg player being aggressive.
When Protoss fast expands they have to build cannons and sentries just to not die. Just like Zerg.
It's silly that Zerg is the only race who complains that their opponent had units of any tier at any point in the game and are willing to call out imbalance!
Did you read the live report thread?
MC was called a cheeser for playing mind games, for expanding, for taking risks, for using teir 1 units, for using tier 2 units, for using tier 3 units, for attacking, for defending, etc...
It was not fair, supposedly, that a Zerg who teched hard and droned hard had no units. It wasn't fair that a player who is famous for making timing pushes did timing pushes. It's not fair that a player in the finals didn't prepare to face off against a playstyle his opponent is famous for.
What could julyzerg have done? He could have been more aggressive, less long term. Baneling busts and 2base play just as he had been doing the whole time before the finals. Would mc have gotten ahead Eco wise? Yes. And mc would also have not been able to make the timing pushes he did. When July gets map control and momentum, *then* he macros up. Just like he did every other time that he won.
The QQ was seeing July play standard and losing without admitting that standard doesn't work against Protoss timing pushes. The QQ was thinking that the reason MC won was purely Forcefields when it was apparent that MC more times than not had the bigger army. Why did MC have the bigger army? Becase when you spend your time droning
and teching at the same time the guy who builds shit just, as Day 9 said, goes and fucking kills him.
July got outplayed because he was out macroed and out microed. The games he won were the ones where he stayed 1-2 bases for a log time, where he focuse on aggression instead of passive droning, where he stayed low tech for a long time as he depended on map control and micro and aggression.
He did not lose because zerg's ability to scout is bad. Nor did July lose because gateway units are imba. July lost because he played bad, period.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On March 22 2011 09:59 lorkac wrote:
@MonsieurGrimm
yes, I have played Zerg against diamond level Protoss. Yes, I know it's hard. Yes, I wish Zerg could fast expand without needing static defenses just like either Protoss or Terran.
It's silly that when Protoss fast expands that they don't need to build cannons or make units to defend. It's silly that Protoss doesn't have to stop worker production when they 4gate or 6gate. Oh wait a minute, they do don't they?
When Protoss plays aggressive (4-6 gate) they stop worker production just like a Zerg player being aggressive.
When Protoss fast expands they have to build cannons and sentries just to not die. Just like Zerg.
It's silly that Zerg is the only race who complains that their opponent had units of any tier at any point in the game and are willing to call out imbalance!
Did you read the live report thread?
MC was called a cheeser for playing mind games, for expanding, for taking risks, for using teir 1 units, for using tier 2 units, for using tier 3 units, for attacking, for defending, etc...
It was not fair, supposedly, that a Zerg who teched hard and droned hard had no units. It wasn't fair that a player who is famous for making timing pushes did timing pushes. It's not fair that a player in the finals didn't prepare to face off against a playstyle his opponent is famous for.
What could julyzerg have done? He could have been more aggressive, less long term. Baneling busts and 2base play just as he had been doing the whole time before the finals. Would mc have gotten ahead Eco wise? Yes. And mc would also have not been able to make the timing pushes he did. When July gets map control and momentum, *then* he macros up. Just like he did every other time that he won.
The QQ was seeing July play standard and losing without admitting that standard doesn't work against Protoss timing pushes. The QQ was thinking that the reason MC won was purely Forcefields when it was apparent that MC more times than not had the bigger army. Why did MC have the bigger army? Becase when you spend your time droning
and teching at the same time the guy who builds shit just, as Day 9 said, goes and fucking kills him.
July got outplayed because he was out macroed and out microed. The games he won were the ones where he stayed 1-2 bases for a log time, where he focuse on aggression instead of passive droning, where he stayed low tech for a long time as he depended on map control and micro and aggression.
He did not lose because zerg's ability to scout is bad. Nor did July lose because gateway units are imba. July lost because he played bad, period.
I agree with everything you just said, except the part where you said july was teching and droning too hard - at least in the first game I don't think that was the case, and I do think that the forcefield on the ramp is broken but that's it.
|
On March 22 2011 06:49 niilzon wrote:Well, if I remember correctly, MC was at the bottom left position. And his 4 gates were around and between his minerals and his ramp (but left enough from the ramp not to be scouted by a ramp-ling). A sacrificial overlord would not have been able to scout the 4 gate build : it would have been killed before reaching the hidden position. Great building placement by MC, but I have no idea how July could have scouted it. Show nested quote +Sentries were not the main factor in winning this game, the sentries were just there to convince the 3 gate expand. Had July seen what MC was doing he could have easily won. True (maybe not easily but possibly). Unfortunately I'm not sure if July could have seen what MC was doing. Given the sentry (and ofcourse the nexus) presence, it was obvious from July's POV that MC was going to expand. My opinion and current trend is that the zerg is forced *not* to drone like July did, for safety's sake. More queens and crawlers if defensive, otherwise more lings if offensive (or both if defensive as well). If you are playing semi-blind, you have to choose between taking risks or playing safe, and I suppose that July took the risk of making many drones (and payed for it). Show nested quote +For Zerg: The importance of scouting and tech timings based upon that scouting. July tried to scout alot, but MC prevented the scouting by using intelligent building placement and scout interceptions. Maybe not scoutable at all in the "game 1 case". I clearly remember that July scouted more than once with a little pack of lings (and lost a few of them) to be certain that the nexus was not going to be cancelled (he tested the area 3 times in a row iirc). But it should now probably be scouted beyond construction to be 100% sure (which IMO costs alot of scouting lings and blind safety requirement until the nexus pops, if you play on maps where it is possible to make a perfect hidden building placement + watching for the incoming overlords).. In my opinion, if you are a protoss player and want to improve your PvZ, you must study the positioning of your 3 or 4 gates (or stargate or whatever) for each map and start-position to know a "blind spot" like in G1. By doing so, you force the Z player to either play risky ( = the toss wins if he 4-gates) or to play safely ( = less drones). The key for this is to find a place where it is impossible for an overlord to float without being killed by a stalker or sentry - and to use patrols to see the incoming sac-overlord at all costs (which is not costly). That place can then be used to put 3 gates or 4 gates or 3 gates+stargate or 3 gates+council or 3 gates+robo, all of which can be mixed in with a fake or real nexus expand. The key fact that it is possible on many maps to prevent the Z from scouting your early tech-tree entirely (which requires patrolling) is very important. I think that it is technically possible to hide it on every single tournament-pooled map, but I'm not sure if it's humanly possible to make the correct patrolling perfectly and every game. Hmm unless maybe if you are a Korean with enough experience Note that my input to this discussion does not include the (rarer) cases of the proxies. Ofcourse a proxied stargate will not have the same effect as a stargate hidden in your base, just for the particular dynamics it creates by its exotic location and rush distance. Hm I'm tired.
This is a very good post. I'm very happy to see that the balance complaints have moved away from sentry imba and ore towards how zerg should be scouting, as this was the primary goal of my post  thank you all for your feedback. Hopefully I'll have an analysis of gstl spoiler + Show Spoiler + up tomorrow, and balance talk will not be an issue
|
On March 22 2011 11:56 MonsieurGrimm wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 22 2011 09:59 lorkac wrote:
@MonsieurGrimm
yes, I have played Zerg against diamond level Protoss. Yes, I know it's hard. Yes, I wish Zerg could fast expand without needing static defenses just like either Protoss or Terran.
It's silly that when Protoss fast expands that they don't need to build cannons or make units to defend. It's silly that Protoss doesn't have to stop worker production when they 4gate or 6gate. Oh wait a minute, they do don't they?
When Protoss plays aggressive (4-6 gate) they stop worker production just like a Zerg player being aggressive.
When Protoss fast expands they have to build cannons and sentries just to not die. Just like Zerg.
It's silly that Zerg is the only race who complains that their opponent had units of any tier at any point in the game and are willing to call out imbalance!
Did you read the live report thread?
MC was called a cheeser for playing mind games, for expanding, for taking risks, for using teir 1 units, for using tier 2 units, for using tier 3 units, for attacking, for defending, etc...
It was not fair, supposedly, that a Zerg who teched hard and droned hard had no units. It wasn't fair that a player who is famous for making timing pushes did timing pushes. It's not fair that a player in the finals didn't prepare to face off against a playstyle his opponent is famous for.
What could julyzerg have done? He could have been more aggressive, less long term. Baneling busts and 2base play just as he had been doing the whole time before the finals. Would mc have gotten ahead Eco wise? Yes. And mc would also have not been able to make the timing pushes he did. When July gets map control and momentum, *then* he macros up. Just like he did every other time that he won.
The QQ was seeing July play standard and losing without admitting that standard doesn't work against Protoss timing pushes. The QQ was thinking that the reason MC won was purely Forcefields when it was apparent that MC more times than not had the bigger army. Why did MC have the bigger army? Becase when you spend your time droning
and teching at the same time the guy who builds shit just, as Day 9 said, goes and fucking kills him.
July got outplayed because he was out macroed and out microed. The games he won were the ones where he stayed 1-2 bases for a log time, where he focuse on aggression instead of passive droning, where he stayed low tech for a long time as he depended on map control and micro and aggression.
He did not lose because zerg's ability to scout is bad. Nor did July lose because gateway units are imba. July lost because he played bad, period. I agree with everything you just said, except the part where you said july was teching and droning too hard - at least in the first game I don't think that was the case, and I do think that the forcefield on the ramp is broken but that's it.
I agree with your last two comments as well.
|
thanks for the analysis and opening up of the issue for discussion. in my opinion the sentries were a bigger part to mc's win than what you potray them as here. without that many ffs july would had a bigger and better army that can properly engage, and so i felt that the fight would have definitely looked more even. its also sad to read how july mainly lost due to scouting. a 'd' button pressed at the wrong time on july's keyboard easily costed him the game against the very well planned timing pushes from mc. that is actually pretty sad fact for all the zerg players out there ]:
anyhow, i feel that a 4gate isn't that easily defended against even if it is scouted. im probably bad but i lose alot to 4gates even though i scout his front, cut drones at around 22 and start preparing for it
|
What could julyzerg have done? He could have been more aggressive, less long term. Baneling busts and 2base play just as he had been doing the whole time before the finals. Would mc have gotten ahead Eco wise? Yes. And mc would also have not been able to make the timing pushes he did.
baneling busts and so on work very well against someone that is making too little defenses.
Baneling busts against someone with 7 sentries will simply not work.
The QQ was seeing July play standard and losing without admitting that standard doesn't work against Protoss timing pushes.
So there is no standard way to survive as zerg, but thats fine? -_-
Why did MC have the bigger army? Becase when you spend your time droning
and teching at the same time the guy who builds shit just, as Day 9 said, goes and fucking kills him.
Aye, if you drone, and he is 4gating and pushes, you die.
And if you make units, and he is 3gating and expands, you are super far behind, and you die.
The problem isnt that if you drone, you risk dying to a 4gate.
The problem is that against a well executed 4gate such as the one displayed by MC in game 1, you have absolutely no way of telling if you should be droning or teching or making units, appart from just guessing. And if you guess wrong, you lose.
|
What's needed is some analysis of opening gas/pool vs 14 hatch. With the economic opening, you should always have more stuff unless you get messed with early, such as proxy gate, cannon rush, and four warp gate (1 gas). I'm sure MC would respond brilliantly in most cases, having other builds or timings prepared, but overall I think July's chances would have been better. To those bashing the wastefulness of spine crawlers, that is one of the things you can afford opening 14 hatch more than opening gas/pool.
Additionally, July got the best possible positions on every map he lost. That long distance makes 14 hatch that much more safe.
|
14hatch doesnmt make it any easier to survive a 4gate that you dont know is coming.
either you know its coming, or you dont. if you do, its due to a mistake on the toss side.
If you dont, you can either take a guess, and hope you are correct, or you can try to prepare for everything, and die no matter what he does, because no matter what he does, if you tried to prepare for everything, you end up not having the perfect response needed to survive a well designed blind toss push/all-in.
|
Show nested quote +What could julyzerg have done? He could have been more aggressive, less long term. Baneling busts and 2base play just as he had been doing the whole time before the finals. Would mc have gotten ahead Eco wise? Yes. And mc would also have not been able to make the timing pushes he did. baneling busts and so on work very well against someone that is making too little defenses. Baneling busts against someone with 7 sentries will simply not work.
Yeah, busting Protoss never works. Make sure you tell Huk and Anypro that. Also, tell Nestea and TheWind that their macro games are what's needed to beat Macro-centered Protoss. Please do.
Also, tell Julyzerg that his constant baneling/roach aggression doesn't ever work and that he should stick to Hydra/Muta tech. You know, "standard" play.
Show nested quote +The QQ was seeing July play standard and losing without admitting that standard doesn't work against Protoss timing pushes. So there is no standard way to survive as zerg, but thats fine? -_-
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Show nested quote +
Why did MC have the bigger army? Becase when you spend your time droning
and teching at the same time the guy who builds shit just, as Day 9 said, goes and fucking kills him.
Aye, if you drone, and he is 4gating and pushes, you die. And if you make units, and he is 3gating and expands, you are super far behind, and you die. The problem isnt that if you drone, you risk dying to a 4gate. The problem is that against a well executed 4gate such as the one displayed by MC in game 1, you have absolutely no way of telling if you should be droning or teching or making units, appart from just guessing. And if you guess wrong, you lose.
So you had a player who exploited the metagame and won the GSL championship?
A player who knew that if zerg scouted Sentries that that must mean a FE build so the zerg player purposefully didn't build a lot of guys?
It's like that protoss player prepared for a finals match or something. Making sure to try new builds that *look* normal, but really isn't. It's like, the losing player lost because he kept wanting his opponent to simply follow the structure of the metagame.
"He has sentries! I have to macro or I die! I don't care that he's famous for timing pushes! I don't even care that he's timing pushed me 3 out of the last 3 games! I will macro! rawr!"
If you get stuck playing out the metagame you will always lose to the people who is looking ahead of the metagame. This goes for all games, period.
Here's the truth. Losira is winning thanks to aggression into heavy droning. July has been winning due to aggression into heavy droning. Why? Because that's what the metagame is allowing to happen because everyone else got too comfortable with passive zerg play.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
