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On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote:
You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
You're right but it is silly to change your build order (late 2nd gas) just "in case" they 6-pool when you can defend it fine with a normal wall-in.
The drone block should be easily spotted and chased away with 2 probes.
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zvz 6pool 7pool don't really work on large map or far spwn distance. Decent micro worker around the hatchery waiting for zergling to spawn is pretty much it.
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On February 23 2011 03:58 hocash wrote:
Ever since you posted this I have been owned at least 5 times by Zerg 6 pooling me despite my belief I knew how to hold it off. Damn.
lol I'm sorry. I hope they weren't motivated to cheese by my thread :D
On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
Yaicks, if the cannons are almost spawned when you reach their base, it's already over. Then you can only pull back, drop an expansion and hope your opponent will remain passive the next 4-5min for you to catch up (not likely on the level you play) ^^
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On February 21 2011 02:54 Blargh wrote:
You cheesed your way into Master league, but how do you win matches in Master league playing a standard game? Or do you still just cheese players? What's sad is the only one of those cheeses that's hard to counter is the ZvZ, at least when you try playing a standard 14 pool build and find he 6 pooled. The concept of not scouting very early is that people -hope- that it is not going to be a 6 pool/cheese. I basically consider any time I lose to a cheese as a win, since I did not -try- to counter it. I know I can send my scout at 8 supply and easily fend off the early attacks, but I get no enjoyment out of beating someone who 6 pools. Winning isn't my ultimate objective, having fun is.
tl;dr
you should play a macro game.
First, how do you consider it a "win?" I might understand if you basically considered it "nothing," like you don't win OR lose, but you can't just arbitrarily award yourself a win because the other guy built units earlier than you like. I mean that's ridiculous.
Second, you are giving yourself an advantage over opponents who haven't decided to just arbitrarily reject real strategies (real as in not glitching or anything). You can drone hard as hell at the beginning, since if someone attacks too early you can just call it "cheese" and say "you won." In a similar vein, you can save a little money early on by scouting later. If you don't consider losing to "cheese" a loss, then you can be giving yourself an advantage against those who are trying to avoid losing to it.
On February 22 2011 03:47 Flexx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 21:59 Dhalphir wrote:
So you cheese into Masters. Then what? you don't belong there, obviously, or you wouldn't have had to cheese your way in there to begin with.
This sounds like the kind of thing a bunch of kiddies would be likely to do so they can tell their friends they're in Masters league.
I'd sooner not play this game than advance my ladder rank through cheese. Cheesing one or two games every now and then to keep yourself knowing how to do it if necessary, sure. Cheesing every game specifically to advance is stupidity of the highest order.
tl;dr - this is a bad thread and you are a bad person Christ, you kid's bitching about cheese is seriously sad. This is an extremely well made, intelligent thread that shows both how to execute the strategies, and defend against them. Come down off your high horse and realize that "cheese" is a part of SC, and is pretty important for match play. If you do the same shit every game against the same opponent.. guess what.. you will get beaten (aka, out of the tourney) if he is just straight up better than you. If you're playing for money, or a qualification spot,then you do what need to do to win. Good players don't lose to cheese because they either scout it, have a superior build, or just have great reaction/micro. Learning to do it, and defend against it can ONLY make you better. Doing it all the way to Master's is lame.. but so what? It's his life, and game career. IF he legitimately has cheesed to masters, and sucks otherwise, then why the hell do you care? You will roflstomp him when you play. TL;DR - Stop bitching about a well made thread on a relevant topic to the SC community. Take your bad attitude elsewhere.
I agree.
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Lol I beat 2 cheeses today. One was an SCV+rine rusher and the other was a ZvZ spine crawler pool.
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On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
same here dude. i tried to be a cheesy asshole at 3000diamond/agaisnt low masters = 1-6 record. cheese only works til mid diamond, then most people know how to stop a 6pool by then.
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On February 23 2011 11:03 apalemorning wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
same here dude. i tried to be a cheesy asshole at 3000diamond/agaisnt low masters = 1-6 record. cheese only works til mid diamond, then most people know how to stop a 6pool by then.
I'm very curious as to why both of you failed 6 out of 7 times. Most of my opponents in my 15 out of 21 win streak were high diamond & master protos players who lost to 6 pool. If you could post a few replays I would be happy to analyze the matches.
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Hello dear dehdar,
i'm currently Diamond 2800 Terran but to do this Build I need to play Zerg.
Because this Build doesn't require skill I tried this like 4 times.
I lost all 4 Games and now I can't continue because I'll fail and fail again.
So I'm asking you. Can you analyse my Replays for me?
If yes , I'll send them with PM.
And one question dehdar, Isn't a one Base Baneling bust Zergling runby against Terran better than a Roach Rush?
My Goal is only to get #1 in my Division , not Masters^^ So can you help me , dear dehdar?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Thing with 6 pool is, it depends when you scout it.
I had the worst case scenario the other night when I was facing a random player on DQ who spawned as Zerg, and I scouted him last. I lost.
A day later I had a best case scenario on close positions Meta where I scouted it before I'd even put my gateway down, so a forge went down fast. The cannon was virtually complete as the lings came up my ramp.
One was a horrible loss, one was a trivial win.
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On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote:
6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
Tell this to LiquidTyler
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So if you completely wall off against a 6pool as protoss with a gateway, a forge and a cannon, all supported by the pylon behind it, what's the best thing to destroy when you have to move out? (assuming you don't go air or blink) I am a platinum player that recently lost to a 6pool where I walled with 2gateways and a pylon and lost and so I guess I am also asking, is gateway/forge/cannon the correct way to wall against a 6pool?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I wall with gateway+forge+pylon in the small gap with a cannon behind the gateway. Then you just destroy the pylon when you're ready to leave.
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On February 24 2011 01:27 SeLpHy wrote:
Hello dear dehdar,
i'm currently Diamond 2800 Terran but to do this Build I need to play Zerg.
Because this Build doesn't require skill I tried this like 4 times.
I lost all 4 Games and now I can't continue because I'll fail and fail again.
So I'm asking you. Can you analyse my Replays for me?
If yes , I'll send them with PM.
And one question dehdar, Isn't a one Base Baneling bust Zergling runby against Terran better than a Roach Rush?
My Goal is only to get #1 in my Division , not Masters^^ So can you help me , dear dehdar?
Sure thing. I'll be happy to.
Regarding Baneling bust, I have mixed feelings. I used to baneling bust protos players a lot. But it's without a doubt just as good of an "early win" strategy as roach rush is. I just happen to use roach rush because I have had more success with it.
On February 24 2011 02:03 Mr.Brightside wrote:
So if you completely wall off against a 6pool as protoss with a gateway, a forge and a cannon, all supported by the pylon behind it, what's the best thing to destroy when you have to move out? (assuming you don't go air or blink) I am a platinum player that recently lost to a 6pool where I walled with 2gateways and a pylon and lost and so I guess I am also asking, is gateway/forge/cannon the correct way to wall against a 6pool?
The easiest way in 2 player maps is to scout once you've put down your first pylon. As soon as you see the 6 pool spawn the following buildings in the following order:
1. Forge.
2. Gateway (now the ramp should be completely blocked).
3. Cannon.
From here you can proceed to mass up on stalkers and research blink. If you attack in the time frame 6-8min your zerg opponent will be completely crippled. Attacking at 6-8min doesn't mean sit in your base till it's 6min in the game... it means harass while mustering up your army to deny your opponent from droning up.
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I am assuming you organise the buildings in a way so that it blocks it off completely? I just remember the one game where I tried to wall off with 2 gates and the zerg just ran through the middle. Then the next time I got 6 pooled I tried to wall off with 2 gateways and a pylon and it just got busted down by lings. If you scout after pylon though unless it is steppes your probe won't get there before 13 supply (especially on blistering sands where this happened to me) so do you cancel the gateway as soon as you see a 6pool and build a forge instead?
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On February 24 2011 02:15 dehdar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 01:27 SeLpHy wrote:
Hello dear dehdar,
i'm currently Diamond 2800 Terran but to do this Build I need to play Zerg.
Because this Build doesn't require skill I tried this like 4 times.
I lost all 4 Games and now I can't continue because I'll fail and fail again.
So I'm asking you. Can you analyse my Replays for me?
If yes , I'll send them with PM.
And one question dehdar, Isn't a one Base Baneling bust Zergling runby against Terran better than a Roach Rush?
My Goal is only to get #1 in my Division , not Masters^^ So can you help me , dear dehdar? Sure thing. I'll be happy to. Regarding Baneling bust, I have mixed feelings. I used to baneling bust protos players a lot. But it's without a doubt just as good of an "early win" strategy as roach rush is. I just happen to use roach rush because I have had more success with it. Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:03 Mr.Brightside wrote:
So if you completely wall off against a 6pool as protoss with a gateway, a forge and a cannon, all supported by the pylon behind it, what's the best thing to destroy when you have to move out? (assuming you don't go air or blink) I am a platinum player that recently lost to a 6pool where I walled with 2gateways and a pylon and lost and so I guess I am also asking, is gateway/forge/cannon the correct way to wall against a 6pool? The easiest way in 2 player maps is to scout once you've put down your first pylon. As soon as you see the 6 pool spawn the following buildings in the following order: 1. Forge. 2. Gateway (now the ramp should be completely blocked). 3. Cannon. From here you can proceed to mass up on stalkers and research blink. If you attack in the time frame 6-8min your zerg opponent will be completely crippled. Attacking at 6-8min doesn't mean sit in your base till it's 6min in the game... it means harass while mustering up your army to deny your opponent from droning up.
If your opponent is going ling, wouldn't a mass lot strategy be more effective and quicker? Basically K4gate? I don't see any way a 6/7 pooling zerg could even hope to stop that.
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people like you ruin the game for others, for the ones that really deserve their place in the masters league. Im a master myself and 3/4 of the tvp's i play the protoss player does a 1 base all in strategy.
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I got zerg vs. random on steps so I decided to just 6 pool because I can't really win on that map unless I do something weird which is made more difficult because he is random. Well he spawned as terran and was probably worried about cheese too considering the map and all. He scouted early and got a two supply depot one rax wall up at his ramp before my lings got there. Tried to break it down but really had no chance, I don't think there's anything you can do about that.
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On February 25 2011 01:44 Chrumchrum wrote:
people like you ruin the game for others, for the ones that really deserve their place in the masters league. Im a master myself and 3/4 of the tvp's i play the protoss player does a 1 base all in strategy.
Seriously I don't understand why you even posted in this thread if you feel this way. He deserves to be in master's league just as much as you do. Cheesing is and will always be a part of Starcraft. Even at PROFESSIONAL levels, levels much higher than your own, cheesing is used as a viable tactic. If you prefer to never cheese that's completely your prerogative. This guy choose to ONLY cheese to get into Master's league. He, along with many GSL games, are living proof that cheesing works at the higher levels and even at the highest level of playing.
Ultimately, the goal of any Starcraft 2 player who isn't making money for playing (aka, an amateur), is to have fun. If he or anyone else has fun by doing these cheesy tactics, their accomplishing the primary goal.
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Tbh ur a pretty sad person if ur definition of having fun is cheesing every single game, i dont mind cheesing to spice things up sometimes but doing it every game is just sad.
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On February 22 2011 19:28 Magulina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote:On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote:
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush. Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes? I've tried the build vs 4-5 3500+ rated players, first time it worked but when I faced the same guy twice the second time he held it off.
Probe saw my gas, wen i had 3 roaches, his cannon was 80% done. GG 4 me
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EPT
