EPT[Z] How to cheese your way to Master League - Page 6
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe. I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush. Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes? | ||
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goldemerald
United States39 Posts
Also, I'm like 17 wins and 7 loses so far. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote: I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush. Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes? this is off topic, but for maximum unit production, it's better to constantly chrono gateway units instead of chronoing your warpgate. Gateway chronos will net you more units in YOUR base than is possible than chrono'ing warpgate. Warpgate chronos will net you more units in YOUR OPPONENT's base than is possible by chrono'ing gateways. If you want to crush the 3RR, just don't chrono your wg at all, and instead make units and chrono the gateways. Or, you can use your 3rd chrono (after scouting) on your WG so that you have 4 chrono's on WG instead of 3 (for 3-gate expand). | ||
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CooDu
Australia899 Posts
On February 21 2011 00:02 Gfox wrote: I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it? My thoughts exactly on topics like this. Well you can always cheese in Master League 24/7 as well I guess haha. Definitely not worth it. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On February 22 2011 18:23 CooDu wrote: My thoughts exactly on topics like this. Well you can always cheese in Master League 24/7 as well I guess haha. Definitely not worth it. I disagree. Definitively worth it. Just cheese your way to masters, start playing normal games, and study the replays. In masters, you can actually learn from what your opponent is doing. That's just not worth it in low diamond and below. | ||
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AnxiousHippo
Australia1451 Posts
On February 21 2011 01:06 iamke55 wrote: Nobody should 6 pool against any race. 7 pool is so far ahead economically that even if you want to bring drones and go all-in, you have 3 more drones to do it with. You don't 6 pool for the economy, you 6 pool for the speed. Some people do 7 pool, but I find it too slow for my liking. Also, this only works in higher levels because they are less likely to predict a cheese is coming. In Silver and perhaps Gold these would have really low win counts. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
imo i dont want to deal with 40 minute macro games and then have a bunch random losses to something stupid and get my mmr raped and never get promoted. however, i dont really have a good cheese against terran. i do 3roach ling all-in versus toss if the distance is not too far, and go for 7pool ling drone all-in vs. zerg. | ||
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Magulina
Sweden152 Posts
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote: I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush. Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes? I've tried the build vs 4-5 3500+ rated players, first time it worked but when I faced the same guy twice the second time he held it off. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On February 22 2011 19:17 KimJongChill wrote: i think cheesing as zerg is perfectly fine, especially if you are at top of diamond and just need a bunch of fast wins to get you into masters when you are already better than a portion of the players already in masters. imo i dont want to deal with 40 minute macro games and then have a bunch random losses to something stupid and get my mmr raped and never get promoted. however, i dont really have a good cheese against terran. i do 3roach ling all-in versus toss if the distance is not too far, and go for 7pool ling drone all-in vs. zerg. Against Terran: - 14 gas 14 pool baneling instead of hatchery at expansion (hatchery then cancel, then build baneling nest on creep). Then all in at 28 supply or so. | ||
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
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Holdinga
Bulgaria300 Posts
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dar0za
Canada74 Posts
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 22 2011 10:10 nyc863 wrote: that was a pretty bad T player. yeah he built 2rax, but exposed .. and was bunker rushing you with marines. His first marauder was built after you already had 5 roaches and were building more. He appeared to be playing a different game: where T expects to face lings, and wants to cap Z at one base right at the start, and doesn't think Z will build an army beyond zerglings .. edit: I watched the 6pool v P rage replays. I didn't see any where the zealot spawns into a gap where it can attack 1 ling at a time. Got any like that? for example, have you not faced this defense? and ... Isn't it a bit BM to GG them before they GG (or ragequit, or rage). 1. I've faced the defense that is displayed on your youtube link many times (and lost). In fact in my main thread I posted it as the only viable counter to 6 pool. If I was the protos player in the youtube video, I would have built a gateway right beneath the forge. If the protos player had done that he would have saved 1 cannon and 3 probes. Not that it would make a difference, since the Zerg player was already so far behind plus he committed to the attack, which is throwing the game. 2. Pretty much all Terran players I meet go marines in the first 5-6 minutes (unless they scout my roach warden), especially when they're 2-rax bunker rushing me. However as I mentioned, when I meet 2-3 marauders at my opponents base, I have to pull back (most of the time). The only reason the Roach rush strategy works is due to most Terran players assuming early zergling aggression. 3. About saying GG before the games end. I tend to meet a lot of players who postpone their defeats, which is really a waste of time. So I guess I've developed a bad habbit of saying GG early because it makes some players respond in kind and leave early. And then there is the fact that I have a little troll in me who has to see daylight every now and then  On February 22 2011 20:52 Zaphid wrote: It works because people don't expect it, I regularly scout after 13gate while spending all my chrono on probes, hard to defend it after that... Forge FE is another build that gets raped by this. +1 On February 22 2011 11:32 michaelhasanalias wrote: While half-watching this game, it looked like solid terran play. Then when I paused at 6:48 and saw he had 14 scvs, i cringed a little. 6:48 is the 30-worker saturation time for a one-basing terran player. He lost 2 scvs (maybe 3?) in the game, and obviously had to cut a little bit, but this guy cut 16 workers, and with a lot of money in the bank. Still, in spite of how horrid this guy's play was, I think I'm sold enough on your strategy to try it myself for a while and see how it works. I'll post some replays if/when I have time to play some games today. If you're interested at all, this is the build I've been using for 'quick-win' in zvz: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260 And for zvp I've been using a mix between the wzp 3rr+speedling and just a standard 7RR with OL spotting. Don't know if that's relevant for your OP. Thanks again for sharing. Thanks, I'll post the link on the main thread. The ZvsZ build looks like a solid way to end the game early or at least set your opponent back. The only counter I see on first glimpse is a 10-14 pool player who is prepared (has scouted, like with all other cheese) and has superior micro  | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote: I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush. Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes? Scout low probe count/high larve and/or roach warren going down (warren goes down before lings pop out). The warren goes down around the same time you would throw down your core in a standard opener. Once scouted do a complete wall-off by adding a 2nd gate and chrono out stalkers. Rebuild your wall as necessary. Alternatively you can also wall-in w/ a forge + cannon as soon as you see it which is not optimal but easier to perform as the timing isn't as tight. | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8. Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner. | ||
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dehdar
170 Posts
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote: You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit. Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8. Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner. This is very true indeed. Now that you mentioned it, I remember having two players defend themselves using this exact same strategy. The only downfall is the zerg will be able to scout you at all time, knowing what to expect and when to expect it... on the contrary we (the cheesers) are so far behind at this point, we can't react to it. I'll quote you in the main thread, thanks for your input. | ||
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hocash
United States82 Posts
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses. I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha. Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better. | ||
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