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[Z] How to cheese your way to Master League - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 06:24:31
February 22 2011 06:24 GMT
#101
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
kedinik
Profile Joined September 2010
United States352 Posts
February 22 2011 09:13 GMT
#102
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote:
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.


I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.

Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
goldemerald
Profile Joined January 2011
United States39 Posts
February 22 2011 09:18 GMT
#103
My favorite part of this cheese fun time is when I met another cheeser and we had to turn it into a macro game.

Also, I'm like 17 wins and 7 loses so far.
Trying is the first step towards failure.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 09:22:53
February 22 2011 09:22 GMT
#104
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote:
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.


I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.

Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?


this is off topic, but for maximum unit production, it's better to constantly chrono gateway units instead of chronoing your warpgate.

Gateway chronos will net you more units in YOUR base than is possible than chrono'ing warpgate.

Warpgate chronos will net you more units in YOUR OPPONENT's base than is possible by chrono'ing gateways.


If you want to crush the 3RR, just don't chrono your wg at all, and instead make units and chrono the gateways.

Or, you can use your 3rd chrono (after scouting) on your WG so that you have 4 chrono's on WG instead of 3 (for 3-gate expand).
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
CooDu
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia899 Posts
February 22 2011 09:23 GMT
#105
On February 21 2011 00:02 Gfox wrote:
I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it?


My thoughts exactly on topics like this. Well you can always cheese in Master League 24/7 as well I guess haha. Definitely not worth it.
Just a simple guy, going wherever this journey takes me.
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
February 22 2011 09:27 GMT
#106
On February 22 2011 18:23 CooDu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2011 00:02 Gfox wrote:
I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it?


My thoughts exactly on topics like this. Well you can always cheese in Master League 24/7 as well I guess haha. Definitely not worth it.

I disagree. Definitively worth it.

Just cheese your way to masters, start playing normal games, and study the replays.

In masters, you can actually learn from what your opponent is doing.

That's just not worth it in low diamond and below.
AnxiousHippo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia1451 Posts
February 22 2011 09:59 GMT
#107
On February 21 2011 01:06 iamke55 wrote:
Nobody should 6 pool against any race. 7 pool is so far ahead economically that even if you want to bring drones and go all-in, you have 3 more drones to do it with.

You don't 6 pool for the economy, you 6 pool for the speed. Some people do 7 pool, but I find it too slow for my liking. Also, this only works in higher levels because they are less likely to predict a cheese is coming. In Silver and perhaps Gold these would have really low win counts.
An apple a day keeps the Protoss away | TLHF
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
February 22 2011 10:17 GMT
#108
i think cheesing as zerg is perfectly fine, especially if you are at top of diamond and just need a bunch of fast wins to get you into masters when you are already better than a portion of the players already in masters.

imo i dont want to deal with 40 minute macro games and then have a bunch random losses to something stupid and get my mmr raped and never get promoted. however, i dont really have a good cheese against terran. i do 3roach ling all-in versus toss if the distance is not too far, and go for 7pool ling drone all-in vs. zerg.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
Magulina
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden152 Posts
February 22 2011 10:28 GMT
#109
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote:
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.


I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.

Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?


I've tried the build vs 4-5 3500+ rated players, first time it worked but when I faced the same guy twice the second time he held it off.
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
February 22 2011 11:33 GMT
#110
On February 22 2011 19:17 KimJongChill wrote:
i think cheesing as zerg is perfectly fine, especially if you are at top of diamond and just need a bunch of fast wins to get you into masters when you are already better than a portion of the players already in masters.

imo i dont want to deal with 40 minute macro games and then have a bunch random losses to something stupid and get my mmr raped and never get promoted. however, i dont really have a good cheese against terran. i do 3roach ling all-in versus toss if the distance is not too far, and go for 7pool ling drone all-in vs. zerg.

Against Terran:
- 14 gas 14 pool baneling instead of hatchery at expansion (hatchery then cancel, then build baneling nest on creep).

Then all in at 28 supply or so.
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
February 22 2011 11:52 GMT
#111
It works because people don't expect it, I regularly scout after 13gate while spending all my chrono on probes, hard to defend it after that... Forge FE is another build that gets raped by this.
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
Holdinga
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Bulgaria300 Posts
February 22 2011 12:10 GMT
#112
Actually, 6 pool CANNOT be countered by a protoss that does not go a fast forge. I assue you, it cannot be countered by two gateways wall off (at 12 ofcourse the first one because you cant scout your opponent to make your gate at 10)
dar0za
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada74 Posts
February 22 2011 12:19 GMT
#113
after watching some recent huk games i started going forge first on a lot of maps. even if you plan to fast expand, don't make the forge a part of your natural's simcity - place it like the cyber in a standard gate/cyber wall. see a quick pool or some form of rr? complete wall off, drop one or two cannons, get +1 attack and you have many options from there.
open your mind a little too much and your brain will fall out. | sansfromage #302
dehdar
Profile Joined January 2011
170 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 12:34:55
February 22 2011 12:31 GMT
#114
On February 22 2011 10:10 nyc863 wrote:
Show nested quote +

I uploaded a game vs a decent 2-rax terran player. The link is also posted in the main thread.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142404-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war


that was a pretty bad T player. yeah he built 2rax, but exposed .. and was bunker rushing you with marines. His first marauder was built after you already had 5 roaches and were building more.

He appeared to be playing a different game: where T expects to face lings, and wants to cap Z at one base right at the start, and doesn't think Z will build an army beyond zerglings ..

edit: I watched the 6pool v P rage replays. I didn't see any where the zealot spawns into a gap where it can attack 1 ling at a time. Got any like that? for example, have you not faced this defense?



and ... Isn't it a bit BM to GG them before they GG (or ragequit, or rage).


1. I've faced the defense that is displayed on your youtube link many times (and lost). In fact in my main thread I posted it as the only viable counter to 6 pool.

If I was the protos player in the youtube video, I would have built a gateway right beneath the forge. If the protos player had done that he would have saved 1 cannon and 3 probes. Not that it would make a difference, since the Zerg player was already so far behind plus he committed to the attack, which is throwing the game.

2. Pretty much all Terran players I meet go marines in the first 5-6 minutes (unless they scout my roach warden), especially when they're 2-rax bunker rushing me. However as I mentioned, when I meet 2-3 marauders at my opponents base, I have to pull back (most of the time). The only reason the Roach rush strategy works is due to most Terran players assuming early zergling aggression.

3. About saying GG before the games end. I tend to meet a lot of players who postpone their defeats, which is really a waste of time. So I guess I've developed a bad habbit of saying GG early because it makes some players respond in kind and leave early. And then there is the fact that I have a little troll in me who has to see daylight every now and then

On February 22 2011 20:52 Zaphid wrote:
It works because people don't expect it, I regularly scout after 13gate while spending all my chrono on probes, hard to defend it after that... Forge FE is another build that gets raped by this.

+1

On February 22 2011 11:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2011 19:06 dehdar wrote:
On February 21 2011 08:44 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Thanks for sharing this. I've been cheesing my way along SEA Ladder to burn my bonus pool and collect some data, but I haven't found a zvt strat I liked until now.


edit:

Okay, I'm watching these zvt replays and I'm a bit sad:


Game 1: Your opponent opens 1rax OC into 2rax expand with no hint of aggression and plays at 20 apm.

Game 2: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 on steppes of war and loses to early aggression at 20 apm.

Game 3: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 and loses to early aggression.

Game 4: Your opponent opens 1-1-expand and loses to early aggression while significantly supply blocking himself. You also break his rocks (shak) instead of his ramp, although you could easily have broken his ramp as well.

Game 5: Your opponent finanlly opens 2-rax FE. While your opponent opted to 2-rax into your base after manner blocking you (a poor decision), I do think this is a great example of the strategy you mention.



My biggest question after watching this is: do terrans not 2-rax in tvz on NA server now? 90% of the games I've played on SEA, the terran opens 2-rax aggression blindly every game, usually into 2-rax FE.

Games 1-4 show stupid openers vs. zerg with poor scouting (given the information they had). Here, when they know you haven't expanded, they open 1-1-1 or some silly tech/expand without any defense to hold off 1-base aggression that is obviously coming.

Game 5 shows a below average 2-rax expand that gets owned, although it does look like you'd have won anyway.


My second question is: Do you typically lose to "2-rax --> turtle" with this build, or did you just not post the replays?

I've usually been doing 7RR which is admittedly much easier to scout and prepare for, and I like where this is going, as it hits a couple overlapping timing windows on terran's side (before banshee/siege, before expo from 2-rax, before drop shenanigans).

Would you care to share a few more replays, even losses? I would much appreciate it.


A lot of players do 2-rax (marine + bunker) and when they do, I end the game quite often. However players who set for an early (5-6min) M&M rush will destroy this built.

I don't have many replays where I lose and the ones I have, is all mid/late game losses, but I'll save and upload vidoes of when my cheese is countered in the future.

Usually when I do lose to 2-rax, 1-1-1, 2 gateway walls or 14 pool on 2 player maps, it's because I make minor micro mistakes or mess up my build order. When I'm not 100 percent focused all of these strategies tend to be less effective for obvious reasons

I uploaded a game vs a decent 2-rax terran player. The link is also posted in the main thread.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142404-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war



While half-watching this game, it looked like solid terran play. Then when I paused at 6:48 and saw he had 14 scvs, i cringed a little. 6:48 is the 30-worker saturation time for a one-basing terran player. He lost 2 scvs (maybe 3?) in the game, and obviously had to cut a little bit, but this guy cut 16 workers, and with a lot of money in the bank.

Still, in spite of how horrid this guy's play was, I think I'm sold enough on your strategy to try it myself for a while and see how it works. I'll post some replays if/when I have time to play some games today.


If you're interested at all, this is the build I've been using for 'quick-win' in zvz:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260

And for zvp I've been using a mix between the wzp 3rr+speedling and just a standard 7RR with OL spotting.

Don't know if that's relevant for your OP.

Thanks again for sharing.


Thanks, I'll post the link on the main thread. The ZvsZ build looks like a solid way to end the game early or at least set your opponent back. The only counter I see on first glimpse is a 10-14 pool player who is prepared (has scouted, like with all other cheese) and has superior micro
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
February 22 2011 16:37 GMT
#115
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote:
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.


I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.

Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?


Scout low probe count/high larve and/or roach warren going down (warren goes down before lings pop out). The warren goes down around the same time you would throw down your core in a standard opener. Once scouted do a complete wall-off by adding a 2nd gate and chrono out stalkers. Rebuild your wall as necessary.

Alternatively you can also wall-in w/ a forge + cannon as soon as you see it which is not optimal but easier to perform as the timing isn't as tight.
CryMore
Profile Joined March 2010
United States497 Posts
February 22 2011 18:15 GMT
#116
You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.

Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.

Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
"What wins? 3-base Protoss or 2-base Zerg?" "1-base Terran"
dehdar
Profile Joined January 2011
170 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 18:25:15
February 22 2011 18:23 GMT
#117
double post >.<
dehdar
Profile Joined January 2011
170 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-22 18:24:26
February 22 2011 18:24 GMT
#118
On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote:
You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.

Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.

Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.


This is very true indeed. Now that you mentioned it, I remember having two players defend themselves using this exact same strategy. The only downfall is the zerg will be able to scout you at all time, knowing what to expect and when to expect it... on the contrary we (the cheesers) are so far behind at this point, we can't react to it.

I'll quote you in the main thread, thanks for your input.
hocash
Profile Joined December 2010
United States82 Posts
February 22 2011 18:58 GMT
#119
Ever since you posted this I have been owned at least 5 times by Zerg 6 pooling me despite my belief I knew how to hold it off. Damn.
Johnny_Vegas
Profile Joined December 2007
United States239 Posts
February 22 2011 19:11 GMT
#120
Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.

I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.

I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.

Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.

battlereports.com (co-founder/developer), Nohunters Discussion Forum operator
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