EPT[Z] How to cheese your way to Master League - Page 9
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Felix_mk
85 Posts
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 28 2011 10:46 Ratel wrote: lol 6pool against toss? you better try 7rr or 3r zerglings instead 6pool is the easiest thing to stop I have no doubt that 3r zerglings is very powerful, but just like 6 pool and any other strategy that I know of, it can be held back easily if you're expecting it to come and know what to do. | ||
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vdek
United States267 Posts
On February 22 2011 18:13 kedinik wrote: I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush. Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes? Chrono boost your sentries out instead of warpgates. Gets you enough FF for 2 blocks with one sentry and when it's about to run out, your 2nd sentry should come out. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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vdek
United States267 Posts
On March 02 2011 02:10 Playguuu wrote: Too bad the other races have sweet 1 base builds and more than 2 cheese strats. We'll just have to wait until the next expansion so that everyone can q_q about Zerg being OP and Terran UP. | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
It's most depressing in team games watching your teammates fail horribly at defending against a poorly microd 6 pool. You can 14 pool and hold off a double 8 pool if the clowns just a-move or have average 8 pooler control. Micro is everything in early cheese situations. For both players. -Don't stack your workers on a mineral patch at the far end of your minerals and then a-move. You are just giving the lings equal coverage to your superior worker count. The idea when fighting with any early game melee unit is to have as many as possible hitting one of the opposing melee dudes and to have their guys hitting as many of your guys as possible. Basically, you want to kill one of theirs as fast as possible while keeping your guys alive. It's why 9 lings can beat 12 lings based on positioning alone with no micro. This applies even more so to workers, where you have a lot of workers who have the advantage as long as they remain alive. You don't want to specifically focus a unit, but you want to position in such a way where you have guys surrounding the edge to some degree. -If you are going to kite something around, ask yourself why. Is your pool almost done? Getting 4 lings out will turn the tide guaranteed so kiting might be worth it. Do you have a few more workers in production? An extra worker will certainly help. Otherwise, why are you kiting? You are setting yourself up to be in a worse position 9/10 times. -Move small portions of the fight backward a bit if they get wounded. This is especially true for any worker that is being hit by multiple zerglings. Kite if it turns out they focus clicked (unlikely in sc2), otherwise just let them go back in to the fight wounded while your fresh guys take the hits. -Mineral stacking is generally not worth it, even if you stack toward their units. You often end up in a worse position. Mineral walking can be worth it to get good coverage, but it's also risky. It's better to just engage in a better position to begin with unless you can force a surround. If you are fighting a 6 pool with excellent control he is just going to poke at the edges. You shouldn't be pulling all your workers in this case, because he is going to be bringing more lings or waiting for you to lose workers/mess up before he strikes. You will end up behind on resources if you over react. I'm not even going to try and explain how to play against this, but follow the golden rule of starcraft: Nothing he does can mess you up. You're the boss, and he's playing your game. Just stay calm and do your thing. | ||
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Adrenalin
46 Posts
3.2k diamond from Europe here. Tried for 15 games to "cheese" and results was like 50/50. 6pool is so poor against protoss, they always scout it and wall + canon with probes backup if one of the building falls. 7pool+spine against Z is a joke even pool14 can take care of. The only build which remains viable to my eyes is the 7RR. Unless the terran scouts it and does 1/1/1 for one banshee + 2 bunkers, it works great. So, even if I would like my master league asap, I will play regular games until it. :D | ||
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rAInMo9
United States4 Posts
I'm in bronze and I tried using these 3 cheeses (over 10-20 games?). My thoughts: ZvZ: 7pool. Works maybe 50/50 or less: even if the opponent 14pools, they can just a-move their workers and kill your lings+unfinished crawlers (or maybe my micro just sucks?). And there are a lot of people that 9pool, which destroys 7pool. I've found that 7rr with 2-3 sets of lings right after pool and maybe a crawler works better than 7pool. ZvT: 7rr. Works maybe 50/50: there are too many people that do 2/3/4rax w/ early tech labs. And once they even have 1 or 2 marauders out w/ marines, it's gg. ZvP: 6pool. Works 100% XP: the only time I lost was when he sent 1worker to attack my mineral line and after I killed his probe I forgot to keep mining, which meant I couldn't reinforce. Like OP said, the key is to not lose lings to probes; if they pull all the probes from their mineral line to attack the lings, just run your lings around while producing more and rallying to their base. When the probes return to mining, kill zealots->gateway/pylons. | ||
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
Lose game. | ||
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in. The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201178 Basically: 15pool 15gas (3 on gas) 16hatch (transfer 2 drones to close mineral patches, optional 3rd/4th) (optional lings 0-6 lings) 15 warren OL x2 Roach x 8-11 (depending on how many lings you made, I usually make 2-4) This build is amazing at baiting a hellion harass, and the blue flame timing is perfectly countered by an army of roaches. This is far superior to a 7RR expand because that is EASILY scoutable and counterable. This instills much misinformation. Lastly, it is pretty idiot-proof to execute well. There aren't a lot of hard timings to hit, and you don't need to inject because you don't get queens initially, freeing up more APM for micro. | ||
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chester22
1 Post
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dehdar
170 Posts
On March 13 2011 12:44 proxY_ wrote: I'll just say that the 3rr into mass speedling cheese is much better than a 6 pool against p. Most Ps at lower levels are actively afraid of a 6 pool and will scout on like 9 against it. If they see it and know to throw up a forge you're screwed. Read Travis's thread on the 3rr into mass speedlings, stopping it requires some really precise micro. Much harder than stopping a 6 pool. The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in. The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop. Solid advice. Thanks for your input, I'll update the main thread with it. I'm not familiar with July-esque's 2 base mass speedling/baneling attack, but as long as you can engage terrans with mass zergling/baneling before tanks are up in a fortified position, it's a guaranteed win, so I'll look into it  | ||
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Winterfrozz
Sweden357 Posts
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ChineseWife
United States373 Posts
if ur cross positions hoahaha u win automatically. just make 3 rax and 2 starports. 1 raven, hella banshees and a shitton of marines. bring ur scvs to fight in the front lines because they have as much health as mariens and can repair ur shit. gg, this is how u can get to masters TvP, since a lot of terrans were complaining. OOOooo also. if u go 3 rax and get medivacs, then protoss is dead if they tried to play all new agey with mass gateways and thought haha i can make templar, SYKE templar suck | ||
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Shadyf0o
63 Posts
Heres a replay of me effectively faking this cheese if anyone is interested. I'm not that great, but the basics are there. I meant to fake this cheese into a banshee rush. He comments that he recognizes what I am doing early, so I need to alter the build and throw down a second rax to prepare for his retaliation. It worked pretty well. | ||
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Fierco
United States31 Posts
I watched a kiwikaki replay where he held off a 6 pool by walling off with 2 gates, then finishing the wall with a pylon and chronoing out zealots, and canceling the pylon right before it finishes. I also found you can have a stronger 6 pool if you make an OL instead of the 2nd drone while your pool builds, then you can have constant lings reinforcing. | ||
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GMonster
686 Posts
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DaemonX
545 Posts
You won't get past platinum. (I have done all three extensively in my younger days). And sorry, but 7 pool Spines is terrible against competent zergs. Baneling busts are more consistently successful cheeses. | ||
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dehdar
170 Posts
On May 21 2011 13:07 GoKu` wrote: you can cheese your way into GM league like the 80 people who are doing it. Hmmm I haven't played 1on1 for a very long time since I lost 100 games in a row to get demoted to Bronnze leauge to have some serious fun Like overload invading my enemy... I drop drones, spread creep and make like 12-20 spine crawlers while watching my Bronze enemy trying to hold it off :D It works in Bronze But I'll try to make it to masters with cheese only and make a new thread if it works | ||
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