I advanced to Master League yesterday following 3 build orders against Z/P/T, which not only proved successful, but I won 15 out of my last 21 games using these build orders against high diamond and mostly master players.
The build orders are cheesy and requires no skill pulling off, but you must know when/how/what to engage/harass. It requires some training and some micro, and after you've perfected this cheesy way of playing, you can pretty much dominate everything in diamond and many players in masters, simply because they don't expect such lousy strategies to be pulled off.
As all other cheese strategies, people in Diamond and Master league rarely expect to see it, so they don't prepare/scout for it. Am I joking? No! The truth is, it's very hard to counter 6 pool unless you scout for it and get a forge up as soon as possible. Youtube commentators such as Force are giving people wrong counters against this, so here is what you want to do.
Scout at 6-10 supply (depending on the map size). If you see a low amount of drones do this:
1. Build a forge as soon as possible. 2. Build a gateway next to the forge to wall off completely. 3. Get a cannon up as soon as possible. 4. Watch the zerg players lose all his zerglings to your cannons or watch him/her pull their zerglings back.
At this point you'll be so far ahead that you can just go mass stalkers and end the game with ease. This is the only way I've lost to protos players when I was 6 pooling. People who try to counter by walling off with two Gateways lose 9 out of 10 times.
How to execute this strategy:
1. Make a spawning pool as soon as possible. 2. Make 2 drones (if you're playing a 4 player map, use the first drone to scout for his location). 3. When your spawning pool is finished you should have 7/10 supply, 150 minerals and 3xlarva. At this point you want to set your rally to your opponents base and pump out 3x2 zerglings. 4. As soon as you have your first 75 minerals you'll have 1 larva. Take 1 gas and make 1x2 zergling. 5. When you hit 75 minerals again do the same. 6. Cancel both extractors. You should be at 10/12 supply now. 7. As soon as you can make an overlord, so you can continue making zerglings.
When 6 pooling it's alpha omega that you engage his zealots as soon as you can get a surrounding. It's also very important you don't lose your zerglings to his probes, unless you can kill 2-3 probes for every zergling you lose. If he has blocked off with 2 gateways, time your attacks so both will get destroyed at the same time. What you want to attack first when entering his base, is always any spawning cannons, the Gateways and finally the Forge. Don't attack the pylons unless 1 pylon is powering 2 or more buildings.
Remember these are just guidelines, you must determine what the best thing to target is yourself depending on the situation.
The typical Terran will go marines and tanks against zerg players. Some will try to reaper rush and others will go early banshee harassment. All these builds will lose to roach attack. However the counter is pretty easy and requires almost no effort.
The Terran players who were able to counter my attacks (forcing me to pull back and go into mid/late game) did the following.
1. Continous scouting for Roach Warden, meaning even when I killed or forced them to back off their first SCV they either sent more or scanned my base, which most don't since mules have such a huge impact on the terran economy. 2. Made marauders instantly (as soon as they saw my roach warden). Mix a few marauders with marines and roaches become worthless in an early push.
How to execute this strategy::
1. At 10 supply send a drone to scout/harass and make an overlord. Usually when you scout early, your opponent will feel more comfortable about preparing for mid game + harassing your opponents SCVs might mess up his/her timing and sometimes even build order. 2. At 13 or 14 supply make a spawning pool followed by an extractor. 3. At 15 supply make an overlord. 4. At 16 supply make a queen. 5. At 18-20 supply make 1x2 or 2x2 zerglings, to deny scouting and for map control. 6. At 20-22 supply, drop a Roach Warden and make an overlord. 7. Stop all drone/zergling production and pump out roaches as soon as you can in a continous stream. Remember to make overlords in order not to get supply blocked.
Here are 4 critical factors that are decisive and will make this strategy work most of the time:
1. Hide your Roach Warden for as long as possible! Don't allow the terran player to scout it. 2. Get an overlord near your opponents ramp, so you can target his/her units/structures without having to enter the ramp to get vision. Otherwise the marines will outnumber your roaches since only 3-4 of your roaches will be able to deal damage when engaged by the marines. 3. Attack as soon as you have 6-7 roaches. Otherwise tanks will come into play, which means you'll need to pull back and pray. 4. Keep pumping larva. The first wave of Roaches won't be able to end the game. It's important you don't get supply blocked so you can keep them coming!
I hate losing to this and so does a lot of Zerg players and it's so easy to counter if you scout early, but in ZvsZ most zerg players either try to finish the game by early banelings, early roaches or 14-15 hatch. This is why 7 pooling is so effective followed by 2 spine crawlers.
To counter this on 4 player maps, you can get away with 14 pooling. On 2 player maps I would recommend to scout at 8 supply and use the extractor trick to go 12 pool. However here is the most simple and safe way to deal with this.
1. Scout at 8 supply. 2. At 10 supply make a spawning pool. 3. At 10 supply make an overlord. 4. Get 3 zerglings and a queen as soon as possible. 5. Make 2 spine crawlers behind your base. 6. When your spine crawlers are done, move them to the front of your base, so they'll be in range of your opponents spine crawlers. You should have enough zerglings to match your opponents zerglings, plus you have a queen and at least 10 drones. Pull them all into the attack, and it's GG.
You could use your queen to get extra zerglings or to heal your spine crawlers. I would recommend extra zerglings. After you've destroyed his 2 spine crawlers, you'll have two spine crawlers in your own base, plus more drones, plus a queen, plus a few zerglings. Your opponent on the other hand will have nothing and it's GG.
How to execute this strategy::
1. At 7 supply you make a spawning pool. 2. At 7 supply make an overlord. 3. Once your spawning pool is done you should be at 7/18 supply, have 3 larva and 150 minerals. You then proceed to make 3 zerglings and continue to make more. You set your rally point to the edge of your opponents base and as soon as your first 3 zerglings spawn, you move two drones to your opponents base and make spine crawlers while harassing with your zerglings.
Here are 4 critical factors that are decisive and will make this strategy work most of the time:
1. Do not lose your zerglings unless you can take out pretty much all of your opponents drones. 2. Don't let your spine crawlers die! 3. Harass his drones all the time. 4. When your opponent moves all of his units to defend against your attack, for the sake of god, micro and get a good surrounding on his zerglings. If you can do that, it's pretty much autowin for you 99 percent of the time.
The reason for this thread is not to encourage zerg players to cheese, quite the contrary. However if you do choose to cheese, by all means be my guest. I only did it because I figured it was the easiest and fastest way to get into Masters. Now that I'm here, I want to play my passive expanding style.
And for everyone who is about to whine or flame, please keep in mind that early scouting will prevent you from losing to cheese, so there is really nothing to whine/flame/complain about
If you have any replays where you counter cheese in an effective way or execute something similar, upload it here and I'll update/insert them in my main thread.
On February 21 2011 00:13 morimacil wrote: Its worth noting that if you early pool against toss, you really want to take 2 drones with you along with the 6 lings. A lot of protoss players dont realize that a full wallin is needed, and will try to hold off your lings with a hold position chronoboosted zealot. Having 2 drones allows you to phase through the zealot by clicking on the mineral line, and then attack him from behind with the drones, while the lings attack from the front. Thus you easily get a surround, get much more dps on the zealot, and it falls much faster. Having an early drone scout hanging out at his choke blocking buildings from being placed there can also help a ton.
On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote: You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
On March 13 2011 12:44 proxY_ wrote: I'll just say that the 3rr into mass speedling cheese is much better than a 6 pool against p. Most Ps at lower levels are actively afraid of a 6 pool and will scout on like 9 against it. If they see it and know to throw up a forge you're screwed. Read Travis's thread on the 3rr into mass speedlings, stopping it requires some really precise micro. Much harder than stopping a 6 pool.
The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in.
The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop.
Edit: New Terran video added Edit: New ZvsZ strategy added (see User uploaded replays) Edit: New Protoss Counter vs 6 pool added (see User input) Edit: New ZvsT strategy added (see User uploaded replays) Edit: Constructive critique and alternative strategies added (see User input)
I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it?
6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
I'm all in all a bit confused on exactly why you posted this. You say show how to cheese to masters..but then discourage people from cheesing to masters. O_o
Against 6 pool as P, walling of with gateways work just fine even if you are walling in with a single gateway and a cybercore. You just need the rally outside for zealots. When backed by a gateway two zealots are more than enough to kill all the zerglings you can send.
On February 20 2011 23:58 Flyingpants wrote: All the terren has to do is make a bunker or two and be able to repair it, to hold off any agression like this.
In ZvZ, sure 7 pool will get you far, in zvp, i don't think 6 pool is that strong, maybe in diamond or below.
If you want to cheese all the way to masters, you would be better off doing it as terren and just making proxy rax and bunkers.
Yes but keep in mind with an overlord giving you vision, you don't have to engage 2 bunkers at the same time. 7 Roaches on 1 bunker and it goes down fast. If you have SCVs repairing it, target the SCVs and you will hurt his/her economy. If however the bunkers are placed perfectly, yes... you might be able to pull off such a defense.
Of all the strategies I posted, I feel like 6 pool vs protos is the strongest. If pulled off correctly it will give you a victory in at least 3 out of 4 games.
If you have any replays of proxy rax and bunkers, please post them I find it that pushing with marine marauder (3rax) , marines only (4rax) or marauder only (3x) is also very powerful. But I haven't played terran for a long time, so I have no replays
On February 21 2011 00:02 Gfox wrote: I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it?
I don't think it will be a problem winning standard games, since I have some strong training partners and a lot of experience in passive/expanding style of playing. Plus I have 1 free name change, but thanks for your concern
i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
Its worth noting that if you early pool against toss, you really want to take 2 drones with you along with the 6 lings. A lot of protoss players dont realize that a full wallin is needed, and will try to hold off your lings with a hold position chronoboosted zealot. Having 2 drones allows you to phase through the zealot by clicking on the mineral line, and then attack him from behind with the drones, while the lings attack from the front. Thus you easily get a surround, get much more dps on the zealot, and it falls much faster. Having an early drone scout hanging out at his choke blocking buildings from being placed there can also help a ton.
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
6 pool is all in. You can't rely on it as containment (maybe in bronze/silver). If you don't end the game with 6 pool within the first 5-6 minutes against a protos player, you have lost.
On February 21 2011 00:07 NacRuno wrote: Against 6 pool as P, walling of with gateways work just fine even if you are walling in with a single gateway and a cybercore. You just need the rally outside for zealots. When backed by a gateway two zealots are more than enough to kill all the zerglings you can send.
Hmmm might work. But the zerglings can damage your structures and kill your probes that are used for blocking before you get your first zealot out and after it is out, you can pull your zergs back and only attack the buildings forcing you to move your zealot ahead to engage, giving the zerg player the possibility to get a surrounding and kill it. However if you get 2 zealots out in time before the gateway is destroyed, you'll be succesful, but I haven't seen it happen before.
On February 21 2011 00:13 morimacil wrote: Its worth noting that if you early pool against toss, you really want to take 2 drones with you along with the 6 lings. A lot of protoss players dont realize that a full wallin is needed, and will try to hold off your lings with a hold position chronoboosted zealot. Having 2 drones allows you to phase through the zealot by clicking on the mineral line, and then attack him from behind with the drones, while the lings attack from the front. Thus you easily get a surround, get much more dps on the zealot, and it falls much faster. Having an early drone scout hanging out at his choke blocking buildings from being placed there can also help a ton.
And how many is that? The only time I have seen some one not fully wall off vs a 6pool is HuK vs TLO at MLG when he couldn't scout it fast enough and when people in bronze try to play...
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
6 pool is all in. You can't rely on it as containment (maybe in bronze/silver). If you don't end the game with 6 pool within the first 5-6 minutes against a protos player, you have lost.
Well then I must have been doing something terribly wrong...because he had a crapton of muta's flying around the map not too long after I got my natural up.
On February 21 2011 00:13 morimacil wrote: Its worth noting that if you early pool against toss, you really want to take 2 drones with you along with the 6 lings. A lot of protoss players dont realize that a full wallin is needed, and will try to hold off your lings with a hold position chronoboosted zealot. Having 2 drones allows you to phase through the zealot by clicking on the mineral line, and then attack him from behind with the drones, while the lings attack from the front. Thus you easily get a surround, get much more dps on the zealot, and it falls much faster. Having an early drone scout hanging out at his choke blocking buildings from being placed there can also help a ton.
Very good point. I'll quote you in the main thread.
Love it when z tries to 6-pool me.. Such a freewin in this game, forges go up so fast. :D
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: 6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
I'm all in all a bit confused on exactly why you posted this. You say show how to cheese to masters..but then discourage people from cheesing to masters. O_o
Wait.. You think spending the first 200 minerals and a drone on spawning pool transitions well into macro?
I hate all these builds when they r done against me because they do work. Its a coin toss when doing these allin cheese builds but if done right and the other person dont scout it in time no matter the skill level then its most likely a win for sure. Getting to masters like this to some might sound like cheating but cheese is part of the game no matter how mad it makes you. Fighting off builds like these makes u a better player and makes for some fun and and fast games.
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: 6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
I'm all in all a bit confused on exactly why you posted this. You say show how to cheese to masters..but then discourage people from cheesing to masters. O_o
Wait.. You think spending the first 200 minerals and a drone on spawning pool transitions well into macro?
Unless that game I played was vs a 7pool or something...it seemed to work fairly well.
On February 21 2011 00:21 letsroll wrote: I hate all these builds when they r done against me because they do work. Its a coin toss when doing these allin cheese builds but if done right and the other person dont scout it in time no matter the skill level then its most likely a win for sure. Getting to masters like this to some might sound like cheating but cheese is part of the game no matter how mad it makes you. Fighting off builds like these makes u a better player and makes for some fun and and fast games.
How is this a coin toss?
Whomever has better scouting and micro wins, just like almost every other strategy that exists. Except these come much earlier.
And how many is that? The only time I have seen some one not fully wall off vs a 6pool is HuK vs TLO at MLG when he couldn't scout it fast enough and when people in bronze try to play...
A surprisingly high amount to be honest. Some people are decent, but just dont know the proper response to some cheeses, because it hasnt been done against them since they got out of the lower leagues, and so has never benn actually done properly against them.
Well then I must have been doing something terribly wrong...because he had a crapton of muta's flying around the map not too long after I got my natural up.
Case in point, you dont seem to know how to respond to a 6pool, even after it does 0 damage to you. On top of not knowing how to take advantage of a failed 6pool (like you), a lot of players also dont know how to actually stop it from doing damage, or killing you.
And how many is that? The only time I have seen some one not fully wall off vs a 6pool is HuK vs TLO at MLG when he couldn't scout it fast enough and when people in bronze try to play...
A surprisingly high amount to be honest. Some people are decent, but just dont know the proper response to some cheeses, because it hasnt been done against them since they got out of the lower leagues, and so has never benn actually done properly against them.
Well then I must have been doing something terribly wrong...because he had a crapton of muta's flying around the map not too long after I got my natural up.
Case in point, you dont seem to know how to respond to a 6pool, even after it does 0 damage to you. On top of not knowing how to take advantage of a failed 6pool (like you), a lot of players also dont know how to actually stop it from doing damage, or killing you.
Actually, I'm not surprised that the cheese works. I know someone who 6-pools against Z and P all the time and it has taken down masters and diamond players. This is because many don't know the proper responses to it as they haven't faced it enough.
Nobody should 6 pool against any race. 7 pool is so far ahead economically that even if you want to bring drones and go all-in, you have 3 more drones to do it with.
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
i played 4 toss in a row in the go4sc2 cup today (3-3.6k masters) i 7 pooled on Meta Scrap Xel'naga and Testbug and it worked every single time i won all games with a hydra push at the 15 minute mark.
Everybody scouted the 7 pool everyone threw down a forge + gateway or two gateways eitherway i killed atleast the forge and the gateway or even a few probes which pulls me greatly ahead in both tech and eco
On February 21 2011 01:06 iamke55 wrote: Nobody should 6 pool against any race. 7 pool is so far ahead economically that even if you want to bring drones and go all-in, you have 3 more drones to do it with.
I used to say/think the same, but fact is when 6 pooling against a Protos player timing is everything. Every second counts because once that first Cannon is up, you need to have destroyed his wall and have the Cannon on at least half health or it's an autowin for the Protos player.
On February 21 2011 00:17 dehdar wrote: Hmmm might work. But the zerglings can damage your structures and kill your probes that are used for blocking before you get your first zealot out and after it is out, you can pull your zergs back and only attack the buildings forcing you to move your zealot ahead to engage, giving the zerg player the possibility to get a surrounding and kill it. However if you get 2 zealots out in time before the gateway is destroyed, you'll be succesful, but I haven't seen it happen before.
There should be a complete wall off as soon as the coming zerglings are scouted, P just needs to put down to the space where Z should hold position and the first zealot comes out before any structure is killed. Then the first zealot is enough to delay the rush untill the second zealot comes.
Also you hold position your zealot just in front of the gateway so that it only attacks zerglings trying to attack the structures.
I am a zerg player btw but i showed this strat to a P friend of mine who used to struggle against early rushes. He no longer has any problems.
This is an awful awful thread, why are you trying to teach players to cheese their way up the ladder without developing any actual skill at all. It's 100% retarded IMO, as your cheese is completely relying on your opponents poorly scouting/responding, and when you reach a certain level not many players are going to make these kinds of mistakes, and when the game is forced into standard play you will be infinitely behind, and lacking the skill to make any kind of comeback, or maintain any kind of advantage assuming you didn't flat out kill your opponent.
So really, all the noobs reading this thread and thinking "omg im on my way to masters now", don't bother, learn to macro and multi task efficiently instead as it will serve you much better, than a handful of worthless cheeses.
On February 21 2011 01:36 BigBossX wrote: This is an awful awful thread, why are you trying to teach players to cheese their way up the ladder without developing any actual skill at all. It's 100% retarded IMO, as your cheese is completely relying on your opponents poorly scouting/responding, and when you reach a certain level not many players are going to make these kinds of mistakes, and when the game is forced into standard play you will be infinitely behind, and lacking the skill to make any kind of comeback, or maintain any kind of advantage assuming you didn't flat out kill your opponent.
I hope people will learn how to cheese, because how else will they know how to defend against it? They won't. And again scouting very early is rarely seen in Master league and at high Diamond because you'll put yourself behind economically (every drone/scv/probe counts in the start). Scouting 1 second earlier can make all the difference.
If you're a Bronze player reading this, watch some replays, try and implement my strategies and learn how to defend yourself against it. Once you're comfortable cheesing and defending yourself against cheese, then you have a solid foundation of skills that you can build more on top of, such as how to early expand, etc. etc.
On February 21 2011 01:36 BigBossX wrote: This is an awful awful thread, why are you trying to teach players to cheese their way up the ladder without developing any actual skill at all. It's 100% retarded IMO, as your cheese is completely relying on your opponents poorly scouting/responding, and when you reach a certain level not many players are going to make these kinds of mistakes, and when the game is forced into standard play you will be infinitely behind, and lacking the skill to make any kind of comeback, or maintain any kind of advantage assuming you didn't flat out kill your opponent.
I hope people will learn how to cheese, because how else will they know how to defend against it? They won't. And again scouting very early is rarely seen in Master league and at high Diamond because you'll put yourself behind economically (every drone/scv/probe counts in the start). Scouting 1 second earlier can make all the difference.
If you're a Bronze player reading this, watch some replays, try and implement my strategies and learn how to defend yourself against it. Once you're comfortable cheesing and defending yourself against cheese, then you have a solid foundation of skills that you can build more on top of, such as how to early expand, etc. etc.
That's good explain from you, but I want to give a little Sample: An new player(bronze) is reading this, and playing this. He will success with this into Diamand. So now he see that it wont work anymore. And now he is diamand without knowledge, the only thing he know to defend is cheese. But lategame macro/micro will be a fail.
You cheesed your way into Master league, but how do you win matches in Master league playing a standard game? Or do you still just cheese players? What's sad is the only one of those cheeses that's hard to counter is the ZvZ, at least when you try playing a standard 14 pool build and find he 6 pooled. The concept of not scouting very early is that people -hope- that it is not going to be a 6 pool/cheese. I basically consider any time I lose to a cheese as a win, since I did not -try- to counter it. I know I can send my scout at 8 supply and easily fend off the early attacks, but I get no enjoyment out of beating someone who 6 pools. Winning isn't my ultimate objective, having fun is.
Overpool (11 OL -> 11 pool) Gas immediately as pool goes down Drone up a bit Queen + 2-4 lings immediately after pool finishes ling speed asap, pull dudes off gas
You start researching speed at 3:08 if you did it right and you out produce an 8 pool on lings, but there is a slight delay before your first few lings come out. If you do it properly, with constant ling production you have enough spare minerals to throw up a second hatchery at around standard speedling opener's 21 hatch timing.
Well knowing how to defend cheese and all-ins is pretty important. Contrary to popular belief, cheese isnt really any less common at higher levels, its just a little more refined. In bronze, players might try to bunkerrush your main, or cannonrush your main, and so on. But in high diamond/low master, as a zerg for example, being faced with bunker rushes on your natural, cannon rushes on your nat, double bunker ramp blocks, 4gates, thor drops on lost temple, cloak banshee rush, DT rush, blue flamed hellion drops, and so on, its about 80% of the game I play. An incredibly low number of players try to beat me straight up, though superior macro, micro, strategy, good transitions, or timings. The rest, around 80% of them, try to rely on some kind of trick or surprise, and hoping I wont scout/notice/be prepared. And when their one-step plan doesnt work, they lose.
So yeah, even in diamond/low master, knowing how to detect and defend cheese/all ins, is still the number 1 skill to have.
I met a Zerg called NanoVapor on ladder the other day - 3050 masters at the time and he only 6 pools. Even in our game on scrap station he tried to 6 pool me. So it is definetely possible without having any knowledge of the game whatsoever.
I'm in masters and I lose to 6/7 pools not too infrequently, especially on 4 player maps. I may just be bad but I don't think it is as trivial to scout in time and stop as people are making it out to be. I'm not at all surprised you can get into masters with it.
Action Jesus proved at dreamhack that you can do okay at the pro level 6 pooling half your games. Idra was litterally 1 single zergling hit away from killing Jinro with it in GSL on a 2 player map. People acting like its trivial to stop 6 pools and saying it could never win at a high level are being completely ridiculous.
you can because it depends when he scouts you on a 4 player map or how long the rush distance is. which makes it silly because you're depending on that rather than you being better than the other guy.
As a terran player playing against Z who often do that roach build I only have a few comments to make. First of all if the Terran is going two barracks, your build is a strong build, but it's used as a containment and you can expand while putting on pressure, hoping that you should have enough potential damage to take down a bunker, chances are you won't, but your opponent may make a mistake. I'd like to add to the build by saying that you should try and sneak and overlord to your opponents front. If you do this you can exploit his building positioning (assuming he blocked). This way you can maximize damage while expanding. I suppose that is all :p I'm hungry.
On February 20 2011 23:58 Flyingpants wrote: All the terren has to do is make a bunker or two and be able to repair it, to hold off any agression like this.
In ZvZ, sure 7 pool will get you far, in zvp, i don't think 6 pool is that strong, maybe in diamond or below.
If you want to cheese all the way to masters, you would be better off doing it as terren and just making proxy rax and bunkers.
Actually cheese works much better in diamond than in gold and below. Cause they are all cheesing themselves.
On February 21 2011 02:54 Blargh wrote: You cheesed your way into Master league, but how do you win matches in Master league playing a standard game? Or do you still just cheese players? What's sad is the only one of those cheeses that's hard to counter is the ZvZ, at least when you try playing a standard 14 pool build and find he 6 pooled. The concept of not scouting very early is that people -hope- that it is not going to be a 6 pool/cheese. I basically consider any time I lose to a cheese as a win, since I did not -try- to counter it. I know I can send my scout at 8 supply and easily fend off the early attacks, but I get no enjoyment out of beating someone who 6 pools. Winning isn't my ultimate objective, having fun is.
tl;dr you should play a macro game.
Excuse me, but are you claiming that it's more fun to lose to 6 pool than scout for it and counter in order to win? If so, please feel free to play me anytime you like. I promise you'll have a lot of fun.
On February 21 2011 02:58 JustPlay wrote: My favorite ZvP or ZvZ cheese:
Overpool (11 OL -> 11 pool) Gas immediately as pool goes down Drone up a bit Queen + 2-4 lings immediately after pool finishes ling speed asap, pull dudes off gas
You start researching speed at 3:08 if you did it right and you out produce an 8 pool on lings, but there is a slight delay before your first few lings come out. If you do it properly, with constant ling production you have enough spare minerals to throw up a second hatchery at around standard speedling opener's 21 hatch timing.
Second favorite (especially vs p):
8 pool with drone drill
It will work against Zerg players, but unless you follow it with a baneling bust it won't be much good against Terran or Protos players since they will have walled up by the time you initiate your first attack.
If you have any replays please feel free to post them and I'll add them to the main thread.
Sometimes when I see 14 hatch, I drone up till I have 16 drones, drop a hatch (in the corner of my base so it won't be spotted) followed by a pool and an extractor. I drone up till I have about 22 drones, make 2 queens at the same time (1 at each base), research speedling and attack with an overwhelming amount of speedlings.
Don't think I can agree here. I'm a high diamond almost to masters (won 9 in a row) and I am VERY susceptible to this build. I usually scout after my 9 pylon and often times by the time I reach him his pool is finished and zerglings being morphed. It's made me scout at 7 or 8 vs. zerg on a 4 player map. Once scouted it's easy to beat. It's also forced me to stop building my structures near my nexus vs. zerg as I prefer to do. I hate choking my base as it screws up the effectiveness of my ff play.
He's posting this as information. I'm glad he did. Just shows you how many different strategies can be employed while still having great results. Even being in Diamond just using cheese is kind of an accomplishment. He must execute it flawlessly.
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: 6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
I'm all in all a bit confused on exactly why you posted this. You say show how to cheese to masters..but then discourage people from cheesing to masters. O_o
To be honest, I am disappointed. How can a master player lose to a 6 pool, roach rush or a spine crawler rush? I thought diamond/master players would be able to defend it :/
The build orders are cheesy and requires no skill pulling off, but you must know when/how/what to engage/harass.
Lol I hope you don't really think this, or are exaggerating but are just saying this humbly and as an understatement in advance of anyone who will bash you for making this thread.
Thanks for sharing anyway, some of your counters are strange and I don't quite agree but I will consider it next time.
I agree with a lot of posters that say go 7 pool > 6 pool. Anyways, I am protoss and I never lose to 7 pool shenanigans. I LOVE it when people go 7 pool. Basically, just cheese. Eventaully people will cry imbalanced or they will learn and then we get infinite amount of joy from defending against cheese.
You are completely right though. The strategy forum is ALWAYS littered with. Chronoboost zealot and stupid shenanigans that is never correct lol.
On February 21 2011 04:44 ReketSomething wrote: I agree with a lot of posters that say go 7 pool > 6 pool. Anyways, I am protoss and I never lose to 7 pool shenanigans. I LOVE it when people go 7 pool. Basically, just cheese. Eventaully people will cry imbalanced or they will learn and then we get infinite amount of joy from defending against cheese.
You are completely right though. The strategy forum is ALWAYS littered with. Chronoboost zealot and stupid shenanigans that is never correct lol.
+1
Chronoboosted zealot gets owned here. Especially if he brings drones along and hits you from behind as well. Even without drones, if he micros well he won't lose a single ling.
ha nice post. thx for sharing. I'm pretty sure these strats work, the roach build vs terran is imo the one thing that can go wrong somewhat easily. But that may just be because I execute it badly
Can you post replays of where your opponent counters correctly? On your toss replay vs. Keepdreaming (I think) it looks to me like he counters correctly but still loses. Maybe he should have rallied his zealot into your ball of lings?
Excellent information to have. I'm not much of using Cheese, but understanding how you played the games to win gave me some good knowledge to have. Much appreciation for sharing, also well formatted.
On February 21 2011 05:44 hocash wrote: Can you post replays of where your opponent counters correctly? On your toss replay vs. Keepdreaming (I think) it looks to me like he counters correctly but still loses. Maybe he should have rallied his zealot into your ball of lings?
Sure thing. Next time I lose while cheesing to a good counter attack, I will save it and upload it.
On February 21 2011 05:58 _Aurus_ wrote: Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
EDIT: It should be better to make a Roach All-In vs Protoss? or I'm wrong.
Roach all in vs. Toss is easy to beat with good FF play. You'll get split in half on his ramp and take the full brunt of zealots up front with sentries/stalkers in back. If he scouts the roach warren he may have immortals as well which is obviously terrible for roaches.
6 pool done well (like OP) is impossible to stop if it isn't scouted super early. Check his replays. What could his opponents have done better AFTER they scouted?
On February 21 2011 05:58 _Aurus_ wrote: Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
EDIT: It should be better to make a Roach All-In vs Protoss? or I'm wrong.
I thought I know how to stop 6 pool, but for example in the PvZ blistering sands replay your opponent (keepdreaming) seems to respond the best way I know how and still loses pretty hard.
What did he do wrong? Does he need to rally the zealot out to die to the zerglings in an effort to buy the cannon time to finish? Or did the cannon need to be further back?
I'm not sure there was ever a point where pulling probes would help.
He seemed to follow the OPs counter exactly and still lost.
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
From now on when I'm laddering, I'm going to scout at 9. I hate cheese and when i see it i go soo overboard so i know that i will win :D. See overboard as bringing lots of probes to help defend but maybe you do need to bring them off mining after all... 2 gate proxys on the other hand are just lol.
Scouting is sooo key in sc, information is power! :D
scouted early pool is easy to stop, if scouted early enough. what makes 6 pool or 7 pool good is when it is done on a 4 player map and you scout it too late so you used may be already a chronoboost on probes, binding ressources. most times you can wall of, but the zerglings can still tear down the buildings.
on short distances any early pool is doomed to fail.
On February 21 2011 05:58 _Aurus_ wrote: Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
Shall I remind you of ActionJesus' performance?
I have hardly seen any cheese since I entered Diamond, and that was a while ago. I can understand how players loose against cheesy builds, having a rusty defensive tactic never helps. I know I never take the time to analyze and learn every possible cheese, so I must be quite vulnerable to cheese in general.
Also, cheese isn't any sort of inferior or illegal play. If there is no counter, then there's an imbalance, but if there is a counter then there is no reason to despise cheese nor cheesers.
Good luck, now, when he stops your cheese, and you get into a 2/3+ base macro game, you're going to lose every time. I look forward to beating you now.
On February 21 2011 06:30 chuigo wrote: Good luck, now, when he stops your cheese, and you get into a 2/3+ base macro game, you're going to lose every time. I look forward to beating you now.
Please read the OP before raging at him, he is merely making a guide of strong cheesy builds with the respective counters. I don't recall him advocating cheese nor boasting about his performance.
On February 21 2011 06:11 tarath wrote: I thought I know how to stop 6 pool, but for example in the PvZ blistering sands replay your opponent (keepdreaming) seems to respond the best way I know how and still loses pretty hard.
What did he do wrong? Does he need to rally the zealot out to die to the zerglings in an effort to buy the cannon time to finish? Or did the cannon need to be further back?
I'm not sure there was ever a point where pulling probes would help.
If you do everything right, you don't need to pull probes. I just watched the match and analyzed what he did wrong. He almost did everything right, but he made two minor mistakes which cost him the game.
Mistake 1: He placed his cannon behind his Forge allowing me to attack it as soon as I destroyed his Forge. If instead he had swapped it with the Pylon, he would have won the game.
Mistake 2: His Zealot is useless and waiting to get killed. If instead he had created a small gap next to his cannon, it could help kill my zerglings while filling the gap denying my zerglings to enter his base.
Mistake 3: His APM was low. When you scout you want to see that Spawning pool as fast as possible. Instead his probe was standing still a few seconds and he didn't notice I was 6 pooling before I pulled 6 zerglings to his base. To make it short, he reacted slowly. If he had reacted a little faster, he would have had a better chance to win despite the first two critical mistakes.
On February 21 2011 06:11 tarath wrote: I thought I know how to stop 6 pool, but for example in the PvZ blistering sands replay your opponent (keepdreaming) seems to respond the best way I know how and still loses pretty hard.
What did he do wrong? Does he need to rally the zealot out to die to the zerglings in an effort to buy the cannon time to finish? Or did the cannon need to be further back?
I'm not sure there was ever a point where pulling probes would help.
If you do everything right, you don't need to pull probes. I just watched the match and analyzed what he did wrong. He almost did everything right, but he made two minor mistakes which cost him the game.
Mistake 1: He placed his cannon behind his Forge allowing me to attack it as soon as I destroyed his Forge. If instead he had swapped it with the Pylon, he would have won the game.
Mistake 2: His Zealot is useless and waiting to get killed. If instead he had created a small gap next to his cannon, it could help kill my zerglings while filling the gap denying my zerglings to enter his base.
Mistake 3: His APM was low. When you scout you want to see that Spawning pool as fast as possible. Instead his probe was standing still a few seconds and he didn't notice I was 6 pooling before I pulled 6 zerglings to his base. To make it short, he reacted slowly. If he had reacted a little faster, he would have had a better chance to win despite the first two critical mistakes.
Indeed, I guess in general your forge will fall first so putting the cannon next to the gateway is a good rule of thumb to remember.
Mistake 2 is much more subtle but very interesting and not something I had considered.
On February 21 2011 06:49 GhetoGeek wrote: Hey I'm a noob, what do you mean when you say 1x2, 2x2, etc when talking about making zerglings?
I'm the noob for not being able to express myself correctly. When you transform larva to zerglings, you get 2 zerglings for every larva. So when I say make 1x2 zerglings, I mean transform 1 larva to 2 zerglings. When I say 2x2 zerglings, I mean transform 2 larva to (x2 = ) 4 zerglings...
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
On February 21 2011 04:40 Brutus wrote: To be honest, I am disappointed. How can a master player lose to a 6 pool, roach rush or a spine crawler rush? I thought diamond/master players would be able to defend it :/
You know, Jinro only survived IdrA's 6pool in GSL because he accidentally cancelled his marine, and even so he was one zergling attack away from losing. ActionJesus took down a lot of top players with 6pool in a single tourny.
It's the type of build that basically removes all skill inequalities, and it outright kills a lot of builds that are otherwise viable at the top level. All you need are a few conditions to be right.
When I was obsessed with 15nexus, I lost a fair number of games to 6/7pool -.-' got greedy trying to wall off the natural right away with the first pylon, making it impossible to completely wall off in time against a 6/7pool. I seriously wonder how pro player feel completely comfortable walling off their natural with their first pylon before scouting.
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: 6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
I'm all in all a bit confused on exactly why you posted this. You say show how to cheese to masters..but then discourage people from cheesing to masters. O_o
Wait.. You think spending the first 200 minerals and a drone on spawning pool transitions well into macro?
7 pool can be used this way, ever watch rootCatz on steps vs P? he loves that move :-D usually gets the gold up after into hydra tech while p is still on 1 base
Thanks for sharing this. I've been cheesing my way along SEA Ladder to burn my bonus pool and collect some data, but I haven't found a zvt strat I liked until now.
edit:
Okay, I'm watching these zvt replays and I'm a bit sad:
Game 1: Your opponent opens 1rax OC into 2rax expand with no hint of aggression and plays at 20 apm.
Game 2: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 on steppes of war and loses to early aggression at 20 apm.
Game 3: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 and loses to early aggression.
Game 4: Your opponent opens 1-1-expand and loses to early aggression while significantly supply blocking himself. You also break his rocks (shak) instead of his ramp, although you could easily have broken his ramp as well.
Game 5: Your opponent finanlly opens 2-rax FE. While your opponent opted to 2-rax into your base after manner blocking you (a poor decision), I do think this is a great example of the strategy you mention.
My biggest question after watching this is: do terrans not 2-rax in tvz on NA server now? 90% of the games I've played on SEA, the terran opens 2-rax aggression blindly every game, usually into 2-rax FE.
Games 1-4 show stupid openers vs. zerg with poor scouting (given the information they had). Here, when they know you haven't expanded, they open 1-1-1 or some silly tech/expand without any defense to hold off 1-base aggression that is obviously coming.
Game 5 shows a below average 2-rax expand that gets owned, although it does look like you'd have won anyway.
My second question is: Do you typically lose to "2-rax --> turtle" with this build, or did you just not post the replays?
I've usually been doing 7RR which is admittedly much easier to scout and prepare for, and I like where this is going, as it hits a couple overlapping timing windows on terran's side (before banshee/siege, before expo from 2-rax, before drop shenanigans).
Would you care to share a few more replays, even losses? I would much appreciate it.
I don't understand why you'd want to cheese into Masters, once you get there if you don't know how to play then your pretty much a sitting duck needing to lose to get back to your current skill set.
On February 21 2011 08:51 aka_star wrote: I don't understand why you'd want to cheese into Masters, once you get there if you don't know how to play then your pretty much a sitting duck needing to lose to get back to your current skill set.
At least for me, there are two reasons:
Most of my 1v1 practice is in custom games with mid-high master level players. I feel I am near or slightly below them in approximate skill, and I don't have the desire to engage in a 40 minute macro game with a player I can beat with a simple rush. So in my case, I feel (rightfully or wrongfully) that I already have the macro skill set to compete in better games.
The second reason is that SEA is so inactive, according to my top 200 analysis, I can actually rank in the top 200 by spending my bonus pool and being only a slightly above average master league player. (There are only 5 master divisions at the moment, and still almost a dozen inactive diamond players from 1.1 in the top 200.) Because I am very curious/excited for the grand master league, SEA presents an opportunity to join the ranks with far less effort than would be required on either NA or KOR, both far more competitive servers. Obviously cheesing won't get me there, but it does speed up the process for someone like me who had played very few 1v1 ladder games until recently.
On February 21 2011 04:40 Brutus wrote: To be honest, I am disappointed. How can a master player lose to a 6 pool, roach rush or a spine crawler rush? I thought diamond/master players would be able to defend it :/
You know, Jinro only survived IdrA's 6pool in GSL because he accidentally cancelled his marine, and even so he was one zergling attack away from losing. ActionJesus took down a lot of top players with 6pool in a single tourny.
It's the type of build that basically removes all skill inequalities, and it outright kills a lot of builds that are otherwise viable at the top level. All you need are a few conditions to be right.
Sir, don't break the pathetic cheeser's deluded belief that they're not inept players breaking the game to get an arbitrary rating that gives them nothing. Remember, doing one thing is "strategy" not "just a thing you're going"
Now, excuse me, I have to strategy me up some coffee.
On February 21 2011 08:44 michaelhasanalias wrote: Thanks for sharing this. I've been cheesing my way along SEA Ladder to burn my bonus pool and collect some data, but I haven't found a zvt strat I liked until now.
edit:
Okay, I'm watching these zvt replays and I'm a bit sad:
Game 1: Your opponent opens 1rax OC into 2rax expand with no hint of aggression and plays at 20 apm.
Game 2: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 on steppes of war and loses to early aggression at 20 apm.
Game 3: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 and loses to early aggression.
Game 4: Your opponent opens 1-1-expand and loses to early aggression while significantly supply blocking himself. You also break his rocks (shak) instead of his ramp, although you could easily have broken his ramp as well.
Game 5: Your opponent finanlly opens 2-rax FE. While your opponent opted to 2-rax into your base after manner blocking you (a poor decision), I do think this is a great example of the strategy you mention.
My biggest question after watching this is: do terrans not 2-rax in tvz on NA server now? 90% of the games I've played on SEA, the terran opens 2-rax aggression blindly every game, usually into 2-rax FE.
Games 1-4 show stupid openers vs. zerg with poor scouting (given the information they had). Here, when they know you haven't expanded, they open 1-1-1 or some silly tech/expand without any defense to hold off 1-base aggression that is obviously coming.
Game 5 shows a below average 2-rax expand that gets owned, although it does look like you'd have won anyway.
My second question is: Do you typically lose to "2-rax --> turtle" with this build, or did you just not post the replays?
I've usually been doing 7RR which is admittedly much easier to scout and prepare for, and I like where this is going, as it hits a couple overlapping timing windows on terran's side (before banshee/siege, before expo from 2-rax, before drop shenanigans).
Would you care to share a few more replays, even losses? I would much appreciate it.
A lot of players do 2-rax (marine + bunker) and when they do, I end the game quite often. However players who set for an early (5-6min) M&M rush will destroy this built.
I don't have many replays where I lose and the ones I have, is all mid/late game losses, but I'll save and upload vidoes of when my cheese is countered in the future.
Usually when I do lose to 2-rax, 1-1-1, 2 gateway walls or 14 pool on 2 player maps, it's because I make minor micro mistakes or mess up my build order. When I'm not 100 percent focused all of these strategies tend to be less effective for obvious reasons
On February 21 2011 08:51 aka_star wrote: I don't understand why you'd want to cheese into Masters, once you get there if you don't know how to play then your pretty much a sitting duck needing to lose to get back to your current skill set.
I think once you are in masters it is easier to detect your mistakes and you learn certain timings better. The mistakes people make at least until they are in diamond weight far too heavy to learn the game in a proper way.
On February 21 2011 08:51 aka_star wrote: I don't understand why you'd want to cheese into Masters, once you get there if you don't know how to play then your pretty much a sitting duck needing to lose to get back to your current skill set.
I think once you are in masters it is easier to detect your mistakes and you learn certain timings better. The mistakes people make at least until they are in diamond weight far too heavy to learn the game in a proper way.
I think its obvious that a low skill player getting into masters this way would have less mechanics to fall back on than someone grinding their way through the lower leagues, Once in masters they arn't going to last long if they are still playing 1 base zerg, and you can't expect them to begin experimenting with fast expanding at that level if they couldn't win games before....
I think its a backwards way of learning and potentially more frustrating to inflate a silver/gold player against a true master player...
there is a better zerg build for the fast rush that allows more.
8 drones, pool, 2 drones, ov.
Pool finishes 3 lings send 1 drone before lings are done to scout, and make a spine on his creep. He will have to pull 3 drones to address the spine. When he does almost kill it cancel it and if it's surrounded click a mineral patch to float by the drones.
When the lings pop send another drone along and make 2 spines the first spine will constantly be making and cancel when low costing him lots of minerals and when your lings get there alot of times it will be half done and you can protect it.
Easily countered by 10 then 2x extractor trick to 12 drones, lord pool. and 2 drones. by the time the pool pops he'll be on the way to your base. pop 3x lings, an make a spine in front of your hatch.
But spine is not necessary and you will be so far ahead it's stupid.
So you cheese into Masters. Then what? you don't belong there, obviously, or you wouldn't have had to cheese your way in there to begin with.
This sounds like the kind of thing a bunch of kiddies would be likely to do so they can tell their friends they're in Masters league.
I'd sooner not play this game than advance my ladder rank through cheese. Cheesing one or two games every now and then to keep yourself knowing how to do it if necessary, sure. Cheesing every game specifically to advance is stupidity of the highest order.
tl;dr - this is a bad thread and you are a bad person
I actually play in Silver League, and i always use the same cheese Vs. Terran, that gets me about 90% wlr. This is the infamous Dimaga's baneling bust. When i miss it, that's because i did something wrong, like delaying my Baneling Nest. The build i use is up on Liquipedia, and i can't see when T will be able to stop it... My 2 cts for people trying to cheese Terrans, as this is my best cheese match-up wlr. I do play "regularly" my PvZ and my ZvZ.
I am very sorry if I am missing something obvious, but every time 6pooling is discussed here, everyone is so concerned with the wall. Why so? I'm just a pathetic gold player, but rarely loose to 6pools. I just kill the zerglings with the drones, as simple as that. Sure, he killes some of them, but i still usually feel like having an advantage. Why is this so not viable in higher level play?
Why are people saying 6 pool vs toss isn't good? None of these builds are any good, sure you might win a game if someone is greedy or doesn't know what is going on, but you're not learning anything you're just winning for the sake of winning, if you could get to like top 200 with this it would be worth talking about, but otherwise it's pointless.
On February 21 2011 23:04 opisska wrote: I am very sorry if I am missing something obvious, but every time 6pooling is discussed here, everyone is so concerned with the wall. Why so? I'm just a pathetic gold player, but rarely loose to 6pools. I just kill the zerglings with the drones, as simple as that. Sure, he killes some of them, but i still usually feel like having an advantage. Why is this so not viable in higher level play?
Because a well executed early pool will not suicide the lings into your probes. he can attack your buildings instead, so you will be forced to pull probes, and he can dance around preventing you from mining.
On February 21 2011 23:04 opisska wrote: I am very sorry if I am missing something obvious, but every time 6pooling is discussed here, everyone is so concerned with the wall. Why so? I'm just a pathetic gold player, but rarely loose to 6pools. I just kill the zerglings with the drones, as simple as that. Sure, he killes some of them, but i still usually feel like having an advantage. Why is this so not viable in higher level play?
Because he can micro his lings. They are faster than probes, so he can come in, try to attack, run away, and basically make you lose all of your mining time, while either droning up or reinforcing with additional lings. So unless you have some units coming up, fighting with the probes alone usually does not work. Sure, if he just goes into your mineral line, and lets himself get surrounded, you can kill the lings easily, but most competent cheeser know that, too.
On February 21 2011 23:04 opisska wrote: I am very sorry if I am missing something obvious, but every time 6pooling is discussed here, everyone is so concerned with the wall. Why so? I'm just a pathetic gold player, but rarely loose to 6pools. I just kill the zerglings with the drones, as simple as that. Sure, he killes some of them, but i still usually feel like having an advantage. Why is this so not viable in higher level play?
Because a well executed early pool will not suicide the lings into your probes. he can attack your buildings instead, so you will be forced to pull probes, and he can dance around preventing you from mining.
That's why I like to build the buildings directly on the sides of the Nexus, when i don't wall in (i sometimes do, depending on ramp size, distance, somteimes do not of sheer laziness), making pylons unreachable for zerglings and other building quite close for the probes to defend... But maybe it really works only thanks to bad execution on the 6poolers side.
It amazes me that people want masters league so bad that they would just cheese their way to it... It doesn't really matter that much guys, once you get to masters are you really going to feel that accomplished? I'm in masters and the best part of getting there was being a solid player and knowing the strategy to get there.
terran 2raxes, protoss 4gates, why should zerg never cheese? if they have to be concerned about early zerg aggresion, they will be less greedy -> good for zerg overall
On February 21 2011 23:36 Zeon0 wrote: terran 2raxes, protoss 4gates, why should zerg never cheese? if they have to be concerned about early zerg aggresion, they will be less greedy -> good for zerg overall
I didn't mean zerg in particular. No matter what race it is, I get cheesed by all races so I'm not biased against any one race more than the others.
On February 21 2011 20:31 zazzn wrote: there is a better zerg build for the fast rush that allows more.
8 drones, pool, 2 drones, ov.
Pool finishes 3 lings send 1 drone before lings are done to scout, and make a spine on his creep. He will have to pull 3 drones to address the spine. When he does almost kill it cancel it and if it's surrounded click a mineral patch to float by the drones.
When the lings pop send another drone along and make 2 spines the first spine will constantly be making and cancel when low costing him lots of minerals and when your lings get there alot of times it will be half done and you can protect it.
Easily countered by 10 then 2x extractor trick to 12 drones, lord pool. and 2 drones. by the time the pool pops he'll be on the way to your base. pop 3x lings, an make a spine in front of your hatch.
But spine is not necessary and you will be so far ahead it's stupid.
Sounds interesting, can you please post a replay so I can update the main thread with it?
On February 21 2011 23:30 GreEny K wrote: It amazes me that people want masters league so bad that they would just cheese their way to it... It doesn't really matter that much guys, once you get to masters are you really going to feel that accomplished? I'm in masters and the best part of getting there was being a solid player and knowing the strategy to get there.
You can't really blame someone for using a strat that apparently works very well against good players. I know longer macro games are considered 'better' by the community but if this works... why not? The ceiling will be hit quite quickly anyway, as people higher up know how to completely shut it down. To advance from that point he still has to start playing more "solidly".
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
7 pool, 2 drones, 8 overlord, of course.
How many zerglings to you typically get before you start droning?
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
7 pool, 2 drones, 8 overlord, of course.
How many zerglings to you typically get before you start droning?
Both 6 pool and 7 pool are "all ins". If you don't defeat your opponent in the first 5-6 minutes you are so far behind that it's almost impossible to catch up with your opponent. The only time you drone up when 6 or 7 pooling is when you realise you can't finish the game and pull back.
On February 21 2011 22:34 leBIGcrab wrote: Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster.
I actually play in Silver League, and i always use the same cheese Vs. Terran, that gets me about 90% wlr. This is the infamous Dimaga's baneling bust. When i miss it, that's because i did something wrong, like delaying my Baneling Nest. The build i use is up on Liquipedia, and i can't see when T will be able to stop it... My 2 cts for people trying to cheese Terrans, as this is my best cheese match-up wlr. I do play "regularly" my PvZ and my ZvZ.
Baneling bust is a very good strategy, I gave it up because I found that a lot of Terran players knew how to counter it. If you have any replays feel free to upload them.
On February 21 2011 21:59 Dhalphir wrote: So you cheese into Masters. Then what? you don't belong there, obviously, or you wouldn't have had to cheese your way in there to begin with.
This sounds like the kind of thing a bunch of kiddies would be likely to do so they can tell their friends they're in Masters league.
I'd sooner not play this game than advance my ladder rank through cheese. Cheesing one or two games every now and then to keep yourself knowing how to do it if necessary, sure. Cheesing every game specifically to advance is stupidity of the highest order.
tl;dr - this is a bad thread and you are a bad person
Christ, you kid's bitching about cheese is seriously sad.
This is an extremely well made, intelligent thread that shows both how to execute the strategies, and defend against them.
Come down off your high horse and realize that "cheese" is a part of SC, and is pretty important for match play. If you do the same shit every game against the same opponent.. guess what.. you will get beaten (aka, out of the tourney) if he is just straight up better than you. If you're playing for money, or a qualification spot,then you do what need to do to win.
Good players don't lose to cheese because they either scout it, have a superior build, or just have great reaction/micro. Learning to do it, and defend against it can ONLY make you better. Doing it all the way to Master's is lame.. but so what? It's his life, and game career. IF he legitimately has cheesed to masters, and sucks otherwise, then why the hell do you care? You will roflstomp him when you play.
TL;DR - Stop bitching about a well made thread on a relevant topic to the SC community. Take your bad attitude elsewhere.
As a nub toss, I have a question about the best response to a held-off sixpool. After I wall in totally, what's the quickest way to capitalize on my advantage? The OP mentions stalkers; would 3-gate blink play (so you can get out of your base without breaking your wall down for zergling fun times) be correct?
On February 22 2011 06:53 Bonham wrote: As a nub toss, I have a question about the best response to a held-off sixpool. After I wall in totally, what's the quickest way to capitalize on my advantage? The OP mentions stalkers; would 3-gate blink play (so you can get out of your base without breaking your wall down for zergling fun times) be correct?
That's what I would do. Or you could go for fast phoenix and force the Zerg player to make at least 2 queens (to prepare for void rays), 1 evo chamber and at least 1 spore crawlers to deal with the phoenix. The Zerg player won't be able to get a spire up or a hydralisk den to respond, so by launching a quick phoenix harassment you'll set back the failed 6 pool zerg even more, plus you'll be able to deny him/her map control since all overlords outside his/her base will get destroyed/pulled back.
Follow that up with a stalker blink attack and it's gg for sure.
On further reflection, I think 2 chrono'd voidrays would also be a good move. Unless he just blindly makes 2 queens, he shouldn't be able to build enough AA in time, and if he tries to base-trade in response you can rally your next void to your choke and maybe build a few more cannons if you need to.
that was a pretty bad T player. yeah he built 2rax, but exposed .. and was bunker rushing you with marines. His first marauder was built after you already had 5 roaches and were building more.
He appeared to be playing a different game: where T expects to face lings, and wants to cap Z at one base right at the start, and doesn't think Z will build an army beyond zerglings ..
edit: I watched the 6pool v P rage replays. I didn't see any where the zealot spawns into a gap where it can attack 1 ling at a time. Got any like that? for example, have you not faced this defense?
and ... Isn't it a bit BM to GG them before they GG (or ragequit, or rage).
Defending a 7pool is not as simple as you are all making it out to be.
There is no real way to know whether he is making those 6 lings and following them up with more, or whether it was an economic 7pool opening, making the pool, droning up to 9 drones then using the double extractor cancel trick to make the initial 6 lings. If he does that, he only has to do 400 minerals of economic damage to you for it to have been a successful opening. If you throw down a forge and even only one cannon, thats 300 minerals right there, and if you throw down even one more cannon or he manages to sneak in and kill one or two probes or a pylon, he's ahead and will take his expansion while you're cannoned in.
it is much better to practise trying to beat off a 7pool using only zealots and probes, because if you overreact to what you think is an all-in, and it turns out to be an economic 7pool, you're going to be in trouble.
Remember, a 7pool not only gets very early zerglings, but it also gets a very early queen and if you cannon yourself in or hard-wall yourself in expecting an all-in 7pool, and he sends his first 6 lings and then makes a queen to drone hard, he will be ahead of you economically in no time at all.
This is a awful thread in my opinion, we should be promoted how to get into master through strategies and good mechanics, not flipping a coin on a win or loss
On February 21 2011 08:44 michaelhasanalias wrote: Thanks for sharing this. I've been cheesing my way along SEA Ladder to burn my bonus pool and collect some data, but I haven't found a zvt strat I liked until now.
edit:
Okay, I'm watching these zvt replays and I'm a bit sad:
Game 1: Your opponent opens 1rax OC into 2rax expand with no hint of aggression and plays at 20 apm.
Game 2: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 on steppes of war and loses to early aggression at 20 apm.
Game 3: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 and loses to early aggression.
Game 4: Your opponent opens 1-1-expand and loses to early aggression while significantly supply blocking himself. You also break his rocks (shak) instead of his ramp, although you could easily have broken his ramp as well.
Game 5: Your opponent finanlly opens 2-rax FE. While your opponent opted to 2-rax into your base after manner blocking you (a poor decision), I do think this is a great example of the strategy you mention.
My biggest question after watching this is: do terrans not 2-rax in tvz on NA server now? 90% of the games I've played on SEA, the terran opens 2-rax aggression blindly every game, usually into 2-rax FE.
Games 1-4 show stupid openers vs. zerg with poor scouting (given the information they had). Here, when they know you haven't expanded, they open 1-1-1 or some silly tech/expand without any defense to hold off 1-base aggression that is obviously coming.
Game 5 shows a below average 2-rax expand that gets owned, although it does look like you'd have won anyway.
My second question is: Do you typically lose to "2-rax --> turtle" with this build, or did you just not post the replays?
I've usually been doing 7RR which is admittedly much easier to scout and prepare for, and I like where this is going, as it hits a couple overlapping timing windows on terran's side (before banshee/siege, before expo from 2-rax, before drop shenanigans).
Would you care to share a few more replays, even losses? I would much appreciate it.
A lot of players do 2-rax (marine + bunker) and when they do, I end the game quite often. However players who set for an early (5-6min) M&M rush will destroy this built.
I don't have many replays where I lose and the ones I have, is all mid/late game losses, but I'll save and upload vidoes of when my cheese is countered in the future.
Usually when I do lose to 2-rax, 1-1-1, 2 gateway walls or 14 pool on 2 player maps, it's because I make minor micro mistakes or mess up my build order. When I'm not 100 percent focused all of these strategies tend to be less effective for obvious reasons
While half-watching this game, it looked like solid terran play. Then when I paused at 6:48 and saw he had 14 scvs, i cringed a little. 6:48 is the 30-worker saturation time for a one-basing terran player. He lost 2 scvs (maybe 3?) in the game, and obviously had to cut a little bit, but this guy cut 16 workers, and with a lot of money in the bank.
Still, in spite of how horrid this guy's play was, I think I'm sold enough on your strategy to try it myself for a while and see how it works. I'll post some replays if/when I have time to play some games today.
On February 22 2011 11:04 Dhalphir wrote: Defending a 7pool is not as simple as you are all making it out to be.
There is no real way to know whether he is making those 6 lings and following them up with more, or whether it was an economic 7pool opening, making the pool, droning up to 9 drones then using the double extractor cancel trick to make the initial 6 lings. If he does that, he only has to do 400 minerals of economic damage to you for it to have been a successful opening. If you throw down a forge and even only one cannon, thats 300 minerals right there, and if you throw down even one more cannon or he manages to sneak in and kill one or two probes or a pylon, he's ahead and will take his expansion while you're cannoned in.
it is much better to practise trying to beat off a 7pool using only zealots and probes, because if you overreact to what you think is an all-in, and it turns out to be an economic 7pool, you're going to be in trouble.
Remember, a 7pool not only gets very early zerglings, but it also gets a very early queen and if you cannon yourself in or hard-wall yourself in expecting an all-in 7pool, and he sends his first 6 lings and then makes a queen to drone hard, he will be ahead of you economically in no time at all.
You have no idea what you're talking about. It's impossible to stop a 6 pool on SoW w/o forge + cannon if you pylon scout (which is what you should do, contrary to OP saying to scout even earlier than that). Also the scouting probe will see your extra 3 drones which clues him in, as well as even if you do 400 minerals of damage you will still be behind because he would still have more workers who have been mining longer.
The video posted above you also made some subtle mistakes. He should've moved one of his probes to prepare to make a gateway/forge WHILE his probe scout made it over to their base, since whatever you scout you will be throwing down some building regardless. If he did this his cannon would not have went down. Also 2 cannons are not needed, again contrary to the video. 1 cannon will buy you enough time to get the necessary zealots. Once this holds I usually go blink stalkers, which it pretty much impossible to stop as zerg at that point.
Any decent player can scout and kill a 6 pool. Just because you cheesed your way to the master league does not make you a good player at all. Learn to play starcraft the way it was meant to be played and please don't ever call yourself a good player
Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.
Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.
Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
this is off topic, but for maximum unit production, it's better to constantly chrono gateway units instead of chronoing your warpgate.
Gateway chronos will net you more units in YOUR base than is possible than chrono'ing warpgate.
Warpgate chronos will net you more units in YOUR OPPONENT's base than is possible by chrono'ing gateways.
If you want to crush the 3RR, just don't chrono your wg at all, and instead make units and chrono the gateways.
Or, you can use your 3rd chrono (after scouting) on your WG so that you have 4 chrono's on WG instead of 3 (for 3-gate expand).
On February 21 2011 00:02 Gfox wrote: I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it?
My thoughts exactly on topics like this. Well you can always cheese in Master League 24/7 as well I guess haha. Definitely not worth it.
On February 21 2011 00:02 Gfox wrote: I see how what your doing here might be tasty for some lesser players however the implications for your account after doing this will leave you in a situation where you will never be able to win a standard game in your new masters league. This being said, unless you want to ladder 1v1 again you may as well buy a new account and start over. Is it worth it?
My thoughts exactly on topics like this. Well you can always cheese in Master League 24/7 as well I guess haha. Definitely not worth it.
I disagree. Definitively worth it.
Just cheese your way to masters, start playing normal games, and study the replays.
In masters, you can actually learn from what your opponent is doing.
That's just not worth it in low diamond and below.
On February 21 2011 01:06 iamke55 wrote: Nobody should 6 pool against any race. 7 pool is so far ahead economically that even if you want to bring drones and go all-in, you have 3 more drones to do it with.
You don't 6 pool for the economy, you 6 pool for the speed. Some people do 7 pool, but I find it too slow for my liking. Also, this only works in higher levels because they are less likely to predict a cheese is coming. In Silver and perhaps Gold these would have really low win counts.
i think cheesing as zerg is perfectly fine, especially if you are at top of diamond and just need a bunch of fast wins to get you into masters when you are already better than a portion of the players already in masters.
imo i dont want to deal with 40 minute macro games and then have a bunch random losses to something stupid and get my mmr raped and never get promoted. however, i dont really have a good cheese against terran. i do 3roach ling all-in versus toss if the distance is not too far, and go for 7pool ling drone all-in vs. zerg.
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.
Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
I've tried the build vs 4-5 3500+ rated players, first time it worked but when I faced the same guy twice the second time he held it off.
On February 22 2011 19:17 KimJongChill wrote: i think cheesing as zerg is perfectly fine, especially if you are at top of diamond and just need a bunch of fast wins to get you into masters when you are already better than a portion of the players already in masters.
imo i dont want to deal with 40 minute macro games and then have a bunch random losses to something stupid and get my mmr raped and never get promoted. however, i dont really have a good cheese against terran. i do 3roach ling all-in versus toss if the distance is not too far, and go for 7pool ling drone all-in vs. zerg.
Against Terran: - 14 gas 14 pool baneling instead of hatchery at expansion (hatchery then cancel, then build baneling nest on creep).
It works because people don't expect it, I regularly scout after 13gate while spending all my chrono on probes, hard to defend it after that... Forge FE is another build that gets raped by this.
Actually, 6 pool CANNOT be countered by a protoss that does not go a fast forge. I assue you, it cannot be countered by two gateways wall off (at 12 ofcourse the first one because you cant scout your opponent to make your gate at 10)
after watching some recent huk games i started going forge first on a lot of maps. even if you plan to fast expand, don't make the forge a part of your natural's simcity - place it like the cyber in a standard gate/cyber wall. see a quick pool or some form of rr? complete wall off, drop one or two cannons, get +1 attack and you have many options from there.
that was a pretty bad T player. yeah he built 2rax, but exposed .. and was bunker rushing you with marines. His first marauder was built after you already had 5 roaches and were building more.
He appeared to be playing a different game: where T expects to face lings, and wants to cap Z at one base right at the start, and doesn't think Z will build an army beyond zerglings ..
edit: I watched the 6pool v P rage replays. I didn't see any where the zealot spawns into a gap where it can attack 1 ling at a time. Got any like that? for example, have you not faced this defense?
and ... Isn't it a bit BM to GG them before they GG (or ragequit, or rage).
1. I've faced the defense that is displayed on your youtube link many times (and lost). In fact in my main thread I posted it as the only viable counter to 6 pool.
If I was the protos player in the youtube video, I would have built a gateway right beneath the forge. If the protos player had done that he would have saved 1 cannon and 3 probes. Not that it would make a difference, since the Zerg player was already so far behind plus he committed to the attack, which is throwing the game.
2. Pretty much all Terran players I meet go marines in the first 5-6 minutes (unless they scout my roach warden), especially when they're 2-rax bunker rushing me. However as I mentioned, when I meet 2-3 marauders at my opponents base, I have to pull back (most of the time). The only reason the Roach rush strategy works is due to most Terran players assuming early zergling aggression.
3. About saying GG before the games end. I tend to meet a lot of players who postpone their defeats, which is really a waste of time. So I guess I've developed a bad habbit of saying GG early because it makes some players respond in kind and leave early. And then there is the fact that I have a little troll in me who has to see daylight every now and then
On February 22 2011 20:52 Zaphid wrote: It works because people don't expect it, I regularly scout after 13gate while spending all my chrono on probes, hard to defend it after that... Forge FE is another build that gets raped by this.
+1
On February 22 2011 11:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:
On February 21 2011 08:44 michaelhasanalias wrote: Thanks for sharing this. I've been cheesing my way along SEA Ladder to burn my bonus pool and collect some data, but I haven't found a zvt strat I liked until now.
edit:
Okay, I'm watching these zvt replays and I'm a bit sad:
Game 1: Your opponent opens 1rax OC into 2rax expand with no hint of aggression and plays at 20 apm.
Game 2: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 on steppes of war and loses to early aggression at 20 apm.
Game 3: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 and loses to early aggression.
Game 4: Your opponent opens 1-1-expand and loses to early aggression while significantly supply blocking himself. You also break his rocks (shak) instead of his ramp, although you could easily have broken his ramp as well.
Game 5: Your opponent finanlly opens 2-rax FE. While your opponent opted to 2-rax into your base after manner blocking you (a poor decision), I do think this is a great example of the strategy you mention.
My biggest question after watching this is: do terrans not 2-rax in tvz on NA server now? 90% of the games I've played on SEA, the terran opens 2-rax aggression blindly every game, usually into 2-rax FE.
Games 1-4 show stupid openers vs. zerg with poor scouting (given the information they had). Here, when they know you haven't expanded, they open 1-1-1 or some silly tech/expand without any defense to hold off 1-base aggression that is obviously coming.
Game 5 shows a below average 2-rax expand that gets owned, although it does look like you'd have won anyway.
My second question is: Do you typically lose to "2-rax --> turtle" with this build, or did you just not post the replays?
I've usually been doing 7RR which is admittedly much easier to scout and prepare for, and I like where this is going, as it hits a couple overlapping timing windows on terran's side (before banshee/siege, before expo from 2-rax, before drop shenanigans).
Would you care to share a few more replays, even losses? I would much appreciate it.
A lot of players do 2-rax (marine + bunker) and when they do, I end the game quite often. However players who set for an early (5-6min) M&M rush will destroy this built.
I don't have many replays where I lose and the ones I have, is all mid/late game losses, but I'll save and upload vidoes of when my cheese is countered in the future.
Usually when I do lose to 2-rax, 1-1-1, 2 gateway walls or 14 pool on 2 player maps, it's because I make minor micro mistakes or mess up my build order. When I'm not 100 percent focused all of these strategies tend to be less effective for obvious reasons
While half-watching this game, it looked like solid terran play. Then when I paused at 6:48 and saw he had 14 scvs, i cringed a little. 6:48 is the 30-worker saturation time for a one-basing terran player. He lost 2 scvs (maybe 3?) in the game, and obviously had to cut a little bit, but this guy cut 16 workers, and with a lot of money in the bank.
Still, in spite of how horrid this guy's play was, I think I'm sold enough on your strategy to try it myself for a while and see how it works. I'll post some replays if/when I have time to play some games today.
And for zvp I've been using a mix between the wzp 3rr+speedling and just a standard 7RR with OL spotting.
Don't know if that's relevant for your OP.
Thanks again for sharing.
Thanks, I'll post the link on the main thread. The ZvsZ build looks like a solid way to end the game early or at least set your opponent back. The only counter I see on first glimpse is a 10-14 pool player who is prepared (has scouted, like with all other cheese) and has superior micro
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.
Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
Scout low probe count/high larve and/or roach warren going down (warren goes down before lings pop out). The warren goes down around the same time you would throw down your core in a standard opener. Once scouted do a complete wall-off by adding a 2nd gate and chrono out stalkers. Rebuild your wall as necessary.
Alternatively you can also wall-in w/ a forge + cannon as soon as you see it which is not optimal but easier to perform as the timing isn't as tight.
You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote: You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
This is very true indeed. Now that you mentioned it, I remember having two players defend themselves using this exact same strategy. The only downfall is the zerg will be able to scout you at all time, knowing what to expect and when to expect it... on the contrary we (the cheesers) are so far behind at this point, we can't react to it.
I'll quote you in the main thread, thanks for your input.
Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote: You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
You're right but it is silly to change your build order (late 2nd gas) just "in case" they 6-pool when you can defend it fine with a normal wall-in.
The drone block should be easily spotted and chased away with 2 probes.
zvz 6pool 7pool don't really work on large map or far spwn distance. Decent micro worker around the hatchery waiting for zergling to spawn is pretty much it.
On February 23 2011 03:58 hocash wrote: Ever since you posted this I have been owned at least 5 times by Zerg 6 pooling me despite my belief I knew how to hold it off. Damn.
lol I'm sorry. I hope they weren't motivated to cheese by my thread :D
On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
Yaicks, if the cannons are almost spawned when you reach their base, it's already over. Then you can only pull back, drop an expansion and hope your opponent will remain passive the next 4-5min for you to catch up (not likely on the level you play) ^^
On February 21 2011 02:54 Blargh wrote: You cheesed your way into Master league, but how do you win matches in Master league playing a standard game? Or do you still just cheese players? What's sad is the only one of those cheeses that's hard to counter is the ZvZ, at least when you try playing a standard 14 pool build and find he 6 pooled. The concept of not scouting very early is that people -hope- that it is not going to be a 6 pool/cheese. I basically consider any time I lose to a cheese as a win, since I did not -try- to counter it. I know I can send my scout at 8 supply and easily fend off the early attacks, but I get no enjoyment out of beating someone who 6 pools. Winning isn't my ultimate objective, having fun is.
tl;dr you should play a macro game.
First, how do you consider it a "win?" I might understand if you basically considered it "nothing," like you don't win OR lose, but you can't just arbitrarily award yourself a win because the other guy built units earlier than you like. I mean that's ridiculous.
Second, you are giving yourself an advantage over opponents who haven't decided to just arbitrarily reject real strategies (real as in not glitching or anything). You can drone hard as hell at the beginning, since if someone attacks too early you can just call it "cheese" and say "you won." In a similar vein, you can save a little money early on by scouting later. If you don't consider losing to "cheese" a loss, then you can be giving yourself an advantage against those who are trying to avoid losing to it.
On February 21 2011 21:59 Dhalphir wrote: So you cheese into Masters. Then what? you don't belong there, obviously, or you wouldn't have had to cheese your way in there to begin with.
This sounds like the kind of thing a bunch of kiddies would be likely to do so they can tell their friends they're in Masters league.
I'd sooner not play this game than advance my ladder rank through cheese. Cheesing one or two games every now and then to keep yourself knowing how to do it if necessary, sure. Cheesing every game specifically to advance is stupidity of the highest order.
tl;dr - this is a bad thread and you are a bad person
Christ, you kid's bitching about cheese is seriously sad.
This is an extremely well made, intelligent thread that shows both how to execute the strategies, and defend against them.
Come down off your high horse and realize that "cheese" is a part of SC, and is pretty important for match play. If you do the same shit every game against the same opponent.. guess what.. you will get beaten (aka, out of the tourney) if he is just straight up better than you. If you're playing for money, or a qualification spot,then you do what need to do to win.
Good players don't lose to cheese because they either scout it, have a superior build, or just have great reaction/micro. Learning to do it, and defend against it can ONLY make you better. Doing it all the way to Master's is lame.. but so what? It's his life, and game career. IF he legitimately has cheesed to masters, and sucks otherwise, then why the hell do you care? You will roflstomp him when you play.
TL;DR - Stop bitching about a well made thread on a relevant topic to the SC community. Take your bad attitude elsewhere.
On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
same here dude. i tried to be a cheesy asshole at 3000diamond/agaisnt low masters = 1-6 record. cheese only works til mid diamond, then most people know how to stop a 6pool by then.
On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
same here dude. i tried to be a cheesy asshole at 3000diamond/agaisnt low masters = 1-6 record. cheese only works til mid diamond, then most people know how to stop a 6pool by then.
I'm very curious as to why both of you failed 6 out of 7 times. Most of my opponents in my 15 out of 21 win streak were high diamond & master protos players who lost to 6 pool. If you could post a few replays I would be happy to analyze the matches.
i'm currently Diamond 2800 Terran but to do this Build I need to play Zerg. Because this Build doesn't require skill I tried this like 4 times. I lost all 4 Games and now I can't continue because I'll fail and fail again. So I'm asking you. Can you analyse my Replays for me? If yes , I'll send them with PM.
And one question dehdar, Isn't a one Base Baneling bust Zergling runby against Terran better than a Roach Rush?
My Goal is only to get #1 in my Division , not Masters^^ So can you help me , dear dehdar?
Thing with 6 pool is, it depends when you scout it.
I had the worst case scenario the other night when I was facing a random player on DQ who spawned as Zerg, and I scouted him last. I lost.
A day later I had a best case scenario on close positions Meta where I scouted it before I'd even put my gateway down, so a forge went down fast. The cannon was virtually complete as the lings came up my ramp.
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote: 6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
So if you completely wall off against a 6pool as protoss with a gateway, a forge and a cannon, all supported by the pylon behind it, what's the best thing to destroy when you have to move out? (assuming you don't go air or blink) I am a platinum player that recently lost to a 6pool where I walled with 2gateways and a pylon and lost and so I guess I am also asking, is gateway/forge/cannon the correct way to wall against a 6pool?
On February 24 2011 01:27 SeLpHy wrote: Hello dear dehdar,
i'm currently Diamond 2800 Terran but to do this Build I need to play Zerg. Because this Build doesn't require skill I tried this like 4 times. I lost all 4 Games and now I can't continue because I'll fail and fail again. So I'm asking you. Can you analyse my Replays for me? If yes , I'll send them with PM.
And one question dehdar, Isn't a one Base Baneling bust Zergling runby against Terran better than a Roach Rush?
My Goal is only to get #1 in my Division , not Masters^^ So can you help me , dear dehdar?
Sure thing. I'll be happy to.
Regarding Baneling bust, I have mixed feelings. I used to baneling bust protos players a lot. But it's without a doubt just as good of an "early win" strategy as roach rush is. I just happen to use roach rush because I have had more success with it.
On February 24 2011 02:03 Mr.Brightside wrote: So if you completely wall off against a 6pool as protoss with a gateway, a forge and a cannon, all supported by the pylon behind it, what's the best thing to destroy when you have to move out? (assuming you don't go air or blink) I am a platinum player that recently lost to a 6pool where I walled with 2gateways and a pylon and lost and so I guess I am also asking, is gateway/forge/cannon the correct way to wall against a 6pool?
The easiest way in 2 player maps is to scout once you've put down your first pylon. As soon as you see the 6 pool spawn the following buildings in the following order:
1. Forge. 2. Gateway (now the ramp should be completely blocked). 3. Cannon.
From here you can proceed to mass up on stalkers and research blink. If you attack in the time frame 6-8min your zerg opponent will be completely crippled. Attacking at 6-8min doesn't mean sit in your base till it's 6min in the game... it means harass while mustering up your army to deny your opponent from droning up.
I am assuming you organise the buildings in a way so that it blocks it off completely? I just remember the one game where I tried to wall off with 2 gates and the zerg just ran through the middle. Then the next time I got 6 pooled I tried to wall off with 2 gateways and a pylon and it just got busted down by lings. If you scout after pylon though unless it is steppes your probe won't get there before 13 supply (especially on blistering sands where this happened to me) so do you cancel the gateway as soon as you see a 6pool and build a forge instead?
On February 24 2011 01:27 SeLpHy wrote: Hello dear dehdar,
i'm currently Diamond 2800 Terran but to do this Build I need to play Zerg. Because this Build doesn't require skill I tried this like 4 times. I lost all 4 Games and now I can't continue because I'll fail and fail again. So I'm asking you. Can you analyse my Replays for me? If yes , I'll send them with PM.
And one question dehdar, Isn't a one Base Baneling bust Zergling runby against Terran better than a Roach Rush?
My Goal is only to get #1 in my Division , not Masters^^ So can you help me , dear dehdar?
Sure thing. I'll be happy to.
Regarding Baneling bust, I have mixed feelings. I used to baneling bust protos players a lot. But it's without a doubt just as good of an "early win" strategy as roach rush is. I just happen to use roach rush because I have had more success with it.
On February 24 2011 02:03 Mr.Brightside wrote: So if you completely wall off against a 6pool as protoss with a gateway, a forge and a cannon, all supported by the pylon behind it, what's the best thing to destroy when you have to move out? (assuming you don't go air or blink) I am a platinum player that recently lost to a 6pool where I walled with 2gateways and a pylon and lost and so I guess I am also asking, is gateway/forge/cannon the correct way to wall against a 6pool?
The easiest way in 2 player maps is to scout once you've put down your first pylon. As soon as you see the 6 pool spawn the following buildings in the following order:
1. Forge. 2. Gateway (now the ramp should be completely blocked). 3. Cannon.
From here you can proceed to mass up on stalkers and research blink. If you attack in the time frame 6-8min your zerg opponent will be completely crippled. Attacking at 6-8min doesn't mean sit in your base till it's 6min in the game... it means harass while mustering up your army to deny your opponent from droning up.
If your opponent is going ling, wouldn't a mass lot strategy be more effective and quicker? Basically K4gate? I don't see any way a 6/7 pooling zerg could even hope to stop that.
people like you ruin the game for others, for the ones that really deserve their place in the masters league. Im a master myself and 3/4 of the tvp's i play the protoss player does a 1 base all in strategy.
I got zerg vs. random on steps so I decided to just 6 pool because I can't really win on that map unless I do something weird which is made more difficult because he is random. Well he spawned as terran and was probably worried about cheese too considering the map and all. He scouted early and got a two supply depot one rax wall up at his ramp before my lings got there. Tried to break it down but really had no chance, I don't think there's anything you can do about that.
On February 25 2011 01:44 Chrumchrum wrote: people like you ruin the game for others, for the ones that really deserve their place in the masters league. Im a master myself and 3/4 of the tvp's i play the protoss player does a 1 base all in strategy.
Seriously I don't understand why you even posted in this thread if you feel this way. He deserves to be in master's league just as much as you do. Cheesing is and will always be a part of Starcraft. Even at PROFESSIONAL levels, levels much higher than your own, cheesing is used as a viable tactic. If you prefer to never cheese that's completely your prerogative. This guy choose to ONLY cheese to get into Master's league. He, along with many GSL games, are living proof that cheesing works at the higher levels and even at the highest level of playing.
Ultimately, the goal of any Starcraft 2 player who isn't making money for playing (aka, an amateur), is to have fun. If he or anyone else has fun by doing these cheesy tactics, their accomplishing the primary goal.
Tbh ur a pretty sad person if ur definition of having fun is cheesing every single game, i dont mind cheesing to spice things up sometimes but doing it every game is just sad.
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.
Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
I've tried the build vs 4-5 3500+ rated players, first time it worked but when I faced the same guy twice the second time he held it off.
Probe saw my gas, wen i had 3 roaches, his cannon was 80% done. GG 4 me
On February 23 2011 04:11 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Just my 2 cents that these cheeses are not all that and a bag of chips, at least at high diamond/low masters level.
I've been stuck at #1 Diamond (3000 pts) for about 3 weeks now, so I thought I'd try some of these cheeses, what the heck. Well... it was a disaster, I lost 5 straight. I think I went 1-10. Every protoss spotted the rush and had a cannon waiting for me. For some reason's Blizz's match maker put me on Steppes 40% of the games. I had removed my downvote for that map thinking 3RR, etc.. would be better on it, but I think it made it too easy for my opponent to scout my early pool and prepare defenses.
I'm usually pretty solid when I've rushed/cheesed in the past, maybe zergs have been reading this thread and there is a ton of cheesing going on right now on ladder, making my opponents on guard, haha.
Anyway, I threw in the towel, and am back to my old macro style and doing much better.
same here dude. i tried to be a cheesy asshole at 3000diamond/agaisnt low masters = 1-6 record. cheese only works til mid diamond, then most people know how to stop a 6pool by then.
I'm very curious as to why both of you failed 6 out of 7 times. Most of my opponents in my 15 out of 21 win streak were high diamond & master protos players who lost to 6 pool. If you could post a few replays I would be happy to analyze the matches.
Maybe that was my mistake, I usually did the 3RR against protoss. I think my one win was win I 7 pooled. To be honest I think part of the problem was map related, on Steppes of War (the map I played most), cheese is 100% expected.
Protoss need pylon before gate, now terrans need depot before rax. Just make zerg need OL before pool and end with this mess. I'm not sure i follow the reason for zerg to be an exception to this.
Thanks to this thread, I held off a 7-pool on Xel'Naga yesterday. It felt great when I scouted, saw what was coming, and knew exactly what to do. After I held it off, he spined and Queen'd up like crazy. Anxious not to throw away my win, I just expo'd and added gates while chronoboosting upgrades and charge to deal with the modest amount of hydras I scouted him making.
After I won, I sent him "gg" in chat. Him: bg Me: Why? Him: Failed 7-pool is never gg. Me: Then why 7-pool? Him: It usually works. This user is now ignoring you.
Indeed I have been beaten many times by Roaches early. I like to open Marine/Hellion Expand into Marine/Tank. If I don't scout the roaches until my Marine/Hellion push gets there, well its pretty much gg.
I'm glad to hear that some of you have had success defending against cheese To the people who have sent me pms, I'll watch all of your replays tonight and send you feedback.
On February 25 2011 07:24 Apolo wrote: Protoss need pylon before gate, now terrans need depot before rax. Just make zerg need OL before pool and end with this mess. I'm not sure i follow the reason for zerg to be an exception to this.
I have the reason : pool = 200 + 50(drone) minerals, and Z will need an OL anyway later barrack + supply = 150 + 100 gate + pylon = 150 + 100
Seems fair, and probably don't need to be changed. What's wrong with early pool? It's not broken as it can reasonably be countered.
Seems a little sketchy to advise other players to cheese their way into masters. Sure it can be done. I have a friend that did it. But are you really helping anyone?
This surprisingly works and has helped me jump 25 places in my division. It also gives me a change to perfect Zerg openers and, if failed, allows the awesomeness of the Zerg macro machine to take over. Thanks!
Sorry guys, but just don't do this! Dehdar, u got completely lucky to reach master league with this. The only thing which might work is the 6-pool vs Protoss. All other stuff is soooo easy to hold for a normal player it's almost ridiculous. Terran: a simple bunker and you are more or less screwed and t can even get the money back. Zerg: Any pool before 14 or maybe 13 and you are done with.... And even a 14 pool can do the trick if proper microed. So, PLS don't follow the OP's advice. Thx.
It was inspired by your build but does attempt to basically end the game with the initial roach attack, and in the event it holds, I try to have a muta transition already working such that if I can bait a transition, I'll be able to clean up with mutas.
While it has been working well for me, I'm torn at whether it's better to blindly transition to muta before engaging with the roaches, as I did lose to a master player who I broke with roaches simply because he stayed on marine tech while he expanded.
Do you think committing to roaches is more likely to net a win than tech-switching to 2-base muta for a quick follow-up if the 11RR fails?
I tried some of these and man, zerg allins feel so so much weaker then toss and terran allins. Just a whole lot easier to hard counter em when scouted compared to the other two races cheesy shit
On February 25 2011 10:22 Bonham wrote: After I won, I sent him "gg" in chat.
On February 26 2011 09:45 SeLpHy wrote: dehdar , I sent you some replays but you didnt answer. Check your PM box again. I read this thread again , printed it and i tried it.
I Only won because i had really luck. In Masters they would have own me instantly!
Can you analyze it for me? What do i do wrong?
Sorry for the late response. I watched your replays and the mistakes you made were very trivial. If you correct them, you'll have a lot more success for sure.
In your first match, you should have destroyed both gateways. You were only attacking one of the gateways, while half of your zerglings were idle. If that's not bad enough you were attacking the gateway that was already completed... The aim of your zerglings attacking his wall is to get through as fast as possible. You could and should have won that game. It took a long time for your opponents first cannon to spawn. If you had attacked both gateways, you would easily have been able to destroy his wall, reached and destroyed his cannon while it was spawning and killed his 1 zealot before ending the game.
In your second match... you were so far ahead. And you quit because you couldn't end the game... After your first assault you had more "workers" than your opponent, you had higher army value and you had way more minerals. Your opponent was even building more static defence than necessary... you had that game won and you quit it. Watch the replay.
In your last match you attacked way too late and your baneling build order wasn't the best. This is the baneling build order that I usually use.
9. overlord 14. gas 14. pool 16. overlord 16. queen. 18. speedling upgrade 20. baneling nest.
Make sure to attack at 5:00-5:30 and no later than 6:00. The sooner the better. Make 6 banelings and hit your opponents supply depo. Once you're inside kill all the combat units. After that you're free to engage his/her SCVS. If the timing is perfect and your opponent isn't a top player it's almost a certain GG for you
On February 27 2011 21:03 michaelhasanalias wrote: thought I'd add I'm also using a zvt cheese that's working pretty well into mid-high diamond:
It was inspired by your build but does attempt to basically end the game with the initial roach attack, and in the event it holds, I try to have a muta transition already working such that if I can bait a transition, I'll be able to clean up with mutas.
While it has been working well for me, I'm torn at whether it's better to blindly transition to muta before engaging with the roaches, as I did lose to a master player who I broke with roaches simply because he stayed on marine tech while he expanded.
Do you think committing to roaches is more likely to net a win than tech-switching to 2-base muta for a quick follow-up if the 11RR fails?
It's really a nice tactic because taking 2 gas and still pushing early, gives you the flexibility of adapting quickly if your initial push doesn't end the game.
Roaches are imo very underestimated. Lately I've been using them as the core of my army and anything else I built is only there to support my roaches (blings, infestors, corrupters).
About your question, going roach first... I would think the average Terran would transition to tank/marauder after your initial push to counter the roaches. And let's face it the average Terran doesn't scout continously so when those mutas arrive, it's GG
Thanks a lot for the replay, I'll put it on the main thread.
I have never won a zvz with a 7pool 2 spines rush, they just pull all their drones and a move in my building crawlers. If i pull my lings and 2 drones(i bring 4 total) back so they attack the crawlers they go down really fast and if I attack while they attack the spines they just a move again and everything dies.
On February 28 2011 10:46 Ratel wrote: lol 6pool against toss? you better try 7rr or 3r zerglings instead 6pool is the easiest thing to stop
I have no doubt that 3r zerglings is very powerful, but just like 6 pool and any other strategy that I know of, it can be held back easily if you're expecting it to come and know what to do.
On February 22 2011 15:24 Skyro wrote: Oh and for zerg cheese I would definitely go with the 3 fast roach rush that got popularized by these forums. I've been seeing it here and there it is very easy to catch a protoss off guard, especially if they lose their initial scouting probe.
I'm curious how good protoss players handle the 3-roach + speedling rush.
Actively scout, grab a forge and a few cannons if they plant a really fast roach warren? Or maybe there's enough time to get a few zealots and a few stalkers out if you cut probes?
Chrono boost your sentries out instead of warpgates. Gets you enough FF for 2 blocks with one sentry and when it's about to run out, your 2nd sentry should come out.
The counter to most very early cheese is solid worker positioning and micro. It also applies to controlling lings early game, microing marines without stutter step, and microing zealots. People actively make their units less effective or don't control them anywhere near optimally and will lose to the dumbest stuff.
It's most depressing in team games watching your teammates fail horribly at defending against a poorly microd 6 pool. You can 14 pool and hold off a double 8 pool if the clowns just a-move or have average 8 pooler control. Micro is everything in early cheese situations. For both players.
-Don't stack your workers on a mineral patch at the far end of your minerals and then a-move. You are just giving the lings equal coverage to your superior worker count. The idea when fighting with any early game melee unit is to have as many as possible hitting one of the opposing melee dudes and to have their guys hitting as many of your guys as possible.
Basically, you want to kill one of theirs as fast as possible while keeping your guys alive. It's why 9 lings can beat 12 lings based on positioning alone with no micro. This applies even more so to workers, where you have a lot of workers who have the advantage as long as they remain alive. You don't want to specifically focus a unit, but you want to position in such a way where you have guys surrounding the edge to some degree.
-If you are going to kite something around, ask yourself why. Is your pool almost done? Getting 4 lings out will turn the tide guaranteed so kiting might be worth it. Do you have a few more workers in production? An extra worker will certainly help. Otherwise, why are you kiting? You are setting yourself up to be in a worse position 9/10 times.
-Move small portions of the fight backward a bit if they get wounded. This is especially true for any worker that is being hit by multiple zerglings. Kite if it turns out they focus clicked (unlikely in sc2), otherwise just let them go back in to the fight wounded while your fresh guys take the hits.
-Mineral stacking is generally not worth it, even if you stack toward their units. You often end up in a worse position. Mineral walking can be worth it to get good coverage, but it's also risky. It's better to just engage in a better position to begin with unless you can force a surround.
If you are fighting a 6 pool with excellent control he is just going to poke at the edges. You shouldn't be pulling all your workers in this case, because he is going to be bringing more lings or waiting for you to lose workers/mess up before he strikes. You will end up behind on resources if you over react. I'm not even going to try and explain how to play against this, but follow the golden rule of starcraft:
Nothing he does can mess you up. You're the boss, and he's playing your game. Just stay calm and do your thing.
3.2k diamond from Europe here. Tried for 15 games to "cheese" and results was like 50/50.
6pool is so poor against protoss, they always scout it and wall + canon with probes backup if one of the building falls. 7pool+spine against Z is a joke even pool14 can take care of. The only build which remains viable to my eyes is the 7RR. Unless the terran scouts it and does 1/1/1 for one banshee + 2 bunkers, it works great.
So, even if I would like my master league asap, I will play regular games until it. :D
I'm in bronze and I tried using these 3 cheeses (over 10-20 games?). My thoughts:
ZvZ: 7pool. Works maybe 50/50 or less: even if the opponent 14pools, they can just a-move their workers and kill your lings+unfinished crawlers (or maybe my micro just sucks?). And there are a lot of people that 9pool, which destroys 7pool. I've found that 7rr with 2-3 sets of lings right after pool and maybe a crawler works better than 7pool. ZvT: 7rr. Works maybe 50/50: there are too many people that do 2/3/4rax w/ early tech labs. And once they even have 1 or 2 marauders out w/ marines, it's gg. ZvP: 6pool. Works 100% XP: the only time I lost was when he sent 1worker to attack my mineral line and after I killed his probe I forgot to keep mining, which meant I couldn't reinforce. Like OP said, the key is to not lose lings to probes; if they pull all the probes from their mineral line to attack the lings, just run your lings around while producing more and rallying to their base. When the probes return to mining, kill zealots->gateway/pylons.
I'll just say that the 3rr into mass speedling cheese is much better than a 6 pool against p. Most Ps at lower levels are actively afraid of a 6 pool and will scout on like 9 against it. If they see it and know to throw up a forge you're screwed. Read Travis's thread on the 3rr into mass speedlings, stopping it requires some really precise micro. Much harder than stopping a 6 pool.
The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in.
The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop.
I thought I would share a new and better ZvT roach cheese I've been working on the past week on korean server. It hits faster and more effectively AND is less all-in than most standard roach agression builds (and my delayed 11RR build). Refer to the FE Roach build in this new discussion thread:
15pool 15gas (3 on gas) 16hatch (transfer 2 drones to close mineral patches, optional 3rd/4th) (optional lings 0-6 lings) 15 warren OL x2
Roach x 8-11 (depending on how many lings you made, I usually make 2-4)
This build is amazing at baiting a hellion harass, and the blue flame timing is perfectly countered by an army of roaches.
This is far superior to a 7RR expand because that is EASILY scoutable and counterable. This instills much misinformation.
Lastly, it is pretty idiot-proof to execute well. There aren't a lot of hard timings to hit, and you don't need to inject because you don't get queens initially, freeing up more APM for micro.
On March 13 2011 12:44 proxY_ wrote: I'll just say that the 3rr into mass speedling cheese is much better than a 6 pool against p. Most Ps at lower levels are actively afraid of a 6 pool and will scout on like 9 against it. If they see it and know to throw up a forge you're screwed. Read Travis's thread on the 3rr into mass speedlings, stopping it requires some really precise micro. Much harder than stopping a 6 pool.
The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in.
The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop.
Solid advice. Thanks for your input, I'll update the main thread with it.
I'm not familiar with July-esque's 2 base mass speedling/baneling attack, but as long as you can engage terrans with mass zergling/baneling before tanks are up in a fortified position, it's a guaranteed win, so I'll look into it
heres a better one: play terran, if you're close positions make ur rax, gas normally, dont make a marine u wont need one, tech lab, marauer conc, rallied to protosses base, 2nd rax, tech lab, now just pump marauders and make sure u build no more than 13 scvs or else u lose gg
if ur cross positions hoahaha u win automatically. just make 3 rax and 2 starports. 1 raven, hella banshees and a shitton of marines. bring ur scvs to fight in the front lines because they have as much health as mariens and can repair ur shit. gg, this is how u can get to masters TvP, since a lot of terrans were complaining. OOOooo also. if u go 3 rax and get medivacs, then protoss is dead if they tried to play all new agey with mass gateways and thought haha i can make templar, SYKE templar suck
Heres a replay of me effectively faking this cheese if anyone is interested. I'm not that great, but the basics are there. I meant to fake this cheese into a banshee rush. He comments that he recognizes what I am doing early, so I need to alter the build and throw down a second rax to prepare for his retaliation. It worked pretty well.
I found that as playing protoss, building a forge is not the best way to stop a 6 pool, and that the 6 pool often times will hit before I can get a cannon up.
I watched a kiwikaki replay where he held off a 6 pool by walling off with 2 gates, then finishing the wall with a pylon and chronoing out zealots, and canceling the pylon right before it finishes.
I also found you can have a stronger 6 pool if you make an OL instead of the 2nd drone while your pool builds, then you can have constant lings reinforcing.
On May 21 2011 13:07 GoKu` wrote: you can cheese your way into GM league like the 80 people who are doing it.
Hmmm I haven't played 1on1 for a very long time since I lost 100 games in a row to get demoted to Bronnze leauge to have some serious fun Like overload invading my enemy... I drop drones, spread creep and make like 12-20 spine crawlers while watching my Bronze enemy trying to hold it off :D It works in Bronze
But I'll try to make it to masters with cheese only and make a new thread if it works
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7594/36559157.png)
