On February 21 2011 23:04 opisska wrote: I am very sorry if I am missing something obvious, but every time 6pooling is discussed here, everyone is so concerned with the wall. Why so? I'm just a pathetic gold player, but rarely loose to 6pools. I just kill the zerglings with the drones, as simple as that. Sure, he killes some of them, but i still usually feel like having an advantage. Why is this so not viable in higher level play?
Because he can micro his lings. They are faster than probes, so he can come in, try to attack, run away, and basically make you lose all of your mining time, while either droning up or reinforcing with additional lings. So unless you have some units coming up, fighting with the probes alone usually does not work. Sure, if he just goes into your mineral line, and lets himself get surrounded, you can kill the lings easily, but most competent cheeser know that, too.
On February 21 2011 23:04 opisska wrote: I am very sorry if I am missing something obvious, but every time 6pooling is discussed here, everyone is so concerned with the wall. Why so? I'm just a pathetic gold player, but rarely loose to 6pools. I just kill the zerglings with the drones, as simple as that. Sure, he killes some of them, but i still usually feel like having an advantage. Why is this so not viable in higher level play?
Because a well executed early pool will not suicide the lings into your probes. he can attack your buildings instead, so you will be forced to pull probes, and he can dance around preventing you from mining.
That's why I like to build the buildings directly on the sides of the Nexus, when i don't wall in (i sometimes do, depending on ramp size, distance, somteimes do not of sheer laziness), making pylons unreachable for zerglings and other building quite close for the probes to defend... But maybe it really works only thanks to bad execution on the 6poolers side.
It amazes me that people want masters league so bad that they would just cheese their way to it... It doesn't really matter that much guys, once you get to masters are you really going to feel that accomplished? I'm in masters and the best part of getting there was being a solid player and knowing the strategy to get there.
terran 2raxes, protoss 4gates, why should zerg never cheese? if they have to be concerned about early zerg aggresion, they will be less greedy -> good for zerg overall
On February 21 2011 23:36 Zeon0 wrote: terran 2raxes, protoss 4gates, why should zerg never cheese? if they have to be concerned about early zerg aggresion, they will be less greedy -> good for zerg overall
I didn't mean zerg in particular. No matter what race it is, I get cheesed by all races so I'm not biased against any one race more than the others.
On February 21 2011 20:31 zazzn wrote: there is a better zerg build for the fast rush that allows more.
8 drones, pool, 2 drones, ov.
Pool finishes 3 lings send 1 drone before lings are done to scout, and make a spine on his creep. He will have to pull 3 drones to address the spine. When he does almost kill it cancel it and if it's surrounded click a mineral patch to float by the drones.
When the lings pop send another drone along and make 2 spines the first spine will constantly be making and cancel when low costing him lots of minerals and when your lings get there alot of times it will be half done and you can protect it.
Easily countered by 10 then 2x extractor trick to 12 drones, lord pool. and 2 drones. by the time the pool pops he'll be on the way to your base. pop 3x lings, an make a spine in front of your hatch.
But spine is not necessary and you will be so far ahead it's stupid.
Sounds interesting, can you please post a replay so I can update the main thread with it?
On February 21 2011 23:30 GreEny K wrote: It amazes me that people want masters league so bad that they would just cheese their way to it... It doesn't really matter that much guys, once you get to masters are you really going to feel that accomplished? I'm in masters and the best part of getting there was being a solid player and knowing the strategy to get there.
You can't really blame someone for using a strat that apparently works very well against good players. I know longer macro games are considered 'better' by the community but if this works... why not? The ceiling will be hit quite quickly anyway, as people higher up know how to completely shut it down. To advance from that point he still has to start playing more "solidly".
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
7 pool, 2 drones, 8 overlord, of course.
How many zerglings to you typically get before you start droning?
On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote: i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
7 pool, 2 drones, 8 overlord, of course.
How many zerglings to you typically get before you start droning?
Both 6 pool and 7 pool are "all ins". If you don't defeat your opponent in the first 5-6 minutes you are so far behind that it's almost impossible to catch up with your opponent. The only time you drone up when 6 or 7 pooling is when you realise you can't finish the game and pull back.
On February 21 2011 22:34 leBIGcrab wrote: Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster.
I actually play in Silver League, and i always use the same cheese Vs. Terran, that gets me about 90% wlr. This is the infamous Dimaga's baneling bust. When i miss it, that's because i did something wrong, like delaying my Baneling Nest. The build i use is up on Liquipedia, and i can't see when T will be able to stop it... My 2 cts for people trying to cheese Terrans, as this is my best cheese match-up wlr. I do play "regularly" my PvZ and my ZvZ.
Baneling bust is a very good strategy, I gave it up because I found that a lot of Terran players knew how to counter it. If you have any replays feel free to upload them.
On February 21 2011 21:59 Dhalphir wrote: So you cheese into Masters. Then what? you don't belong there, obviously, or you wouldn't have had to cheese your way in there to begin with.
This sounds like the kind of thing a bunch of kiddies would be likely to do so they can tell their friends they're in Masters league.
I'd sooner not play this game than advance my ladder rank through cheese. Cheesing one or two games every now and then to keep yourself knowing how to do it if necessary, sure. Cheesing every game specifically to advance is stupidity of the highest order.
tl;dr - this is a bad thread and you are a bad person
Christ, you kid's bitching about cheese is seriously sad.
This is an extremely well made, intelligent thread that shows both how to execute the strategies, and defend against them.
Come down off your high horse and realize that "cheese" is a part of SC, and is pretty important for match play. If you do the same shit every game against the same opponent.. guess what.. you will get beaten (aka, out of the tourney) if he is just straight up better than you. If you're playing for money, or a qualification spot,then you do what need to do to win.
Good players don't lose to cheese because they either scout it, have a superior build, or just have great reaction/micro. Learning to do it, and defend against it can ONLY make you better. Doing it all the way to Master's is lame.. but so what? It's his life, and game career. IF he legitimately has cheesed to masters, and sucks otherwise, then why the hell do you care? You will roflstomp him when you play.
TL;DR - Stop bitching about a well made thread on a relevant topic to the SC community. Take your bad attitude elsewhere.
As a nub toss, I have a question about the best response to a held-off sixpool. After I wall in totally, what's the quickest way to capitalize on my advantage? The OP mentions stalkers; would 3-gate blink play (so you can get out of your base without breaking your wall down for zergling fun times) be correct?
On February 22 2011 06:53 Bonham wrote: As a nub toss, I have a question about the best response to a held-off sixpool. After I wall in totally, what's the quickest way to capitalize on my advantage? The OP mentions stalkers; would 3-gate blink play (so you can get out of your base without breaking your wall down for zergling fun times) be correct?
That's what I would do. Or you could go for fast phoenix and force the Zerg player to make at least 2 queens (to prepare for void rays), 1 evo chamber and at least 1 spore crawlers to deal with the phoenix. The Zerg player won't be able to get a spire up or a hydralisk den to respond, so by launching a quick phoenix harassment you'll set back the failed 6 pool zerg even more, plus you'll be able to deny him/her map control since all overlords outside his/her base will get destroyed/pulled back.
Follow that up with a stalker blink attack and it's gg for sure.
On further reflection, I think 2 chrono'd voidrays would also be a good move. Unless he just blindly makes 2 queens, he shouldn't be able to build enough AA in time, and if he tries to base-trade in response you can rally your next void to your choke and maybe build a few more cannons if you need to.
that was a pretty bad T player. yeah he built 2rax, but exposed .. and was bunker rushing you with marines. His first marauder was built after you already had 5 roaches and were building more.
He appeared to be playing a different game: where T expects to face lings, and wants to cap Z at one base right at the start, and doesn't think Z will build an army beyond zerglings ..
edit: I watched the 6pool v P rage replays. I didn't see any where the zealot spawns into a gap where it can attack 1 ling at a time. Got any like that? for example, have you not faced this defense?
and ... Isn't it a bit BM to GG them before they GG (or ragequit, or rage).
Defending a 7pool is not as simple as you are all making it out to be.
There is no real way to know whether he is making those 6 lings and following them up with more, or whether it was an economic 7pool opening, making the pool, droning up to 9 drones then using the double extractor cancel trick to make the initial 6 lings. If he does that, he only has to do 400 minerals of economic damage to you for it to have been a successful opening. If you throw down a forge and even only one cannon, thats 300 minerals right there, and if you throw down even one more cannon or he manages to sneak in and kill one or two probes or a pylon, he's ahead and will take his expansion while you're cannoned in.
it is much better to practise trying to beat off a 7pool using only zealots and probes, because if you overreact to what you think is an all-in, and it turns out to be an economic 7pool, you're going to be in trouble.
Remember, a 7pool not only gets very early zerglings, but it also gets a very early queen and if you cannon yourself in or hard-wall yourself in expecting an all-in 7pool, and he sends his first 6 lings and then makes a queen to drone hard, he will be ahead of you economically in no time at all.
This is a awful thread in my opinion, we should be promoted how to get into master through strategies and good mechanics, not flipping a coin on a win or loss
On February 21 2011 08:44 michaelhasanalias wrote: Thanks for sharing this. I've been cheesing my way along SEA Ladder to burn my bonus pool and collect some data, but I haven't found a zvt strat I liked until now.
edit:
Okay, I'm watching these zvt replays and I'm a bit sad:
Game 1: Your opponent opens 1rax OC into 2rax expand with no hint of aggression and plays at 20 apm.
Game 2: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 on steppes of war and loses to early aggression at 20 apm.
Game 3: Your opponent opens 1-1-1 and loses to early aggression.
Game 4: Your opponent opens 1-1-expand and loses to early aggression while significantly supply blocking himself. You also break his rocks (shak) instead of his ramp, although you could easily have broken his ramp as well.
Game 5: Your opponent finanlly opens 2-rax FE. While your opponent opted to 2-rax into your base after manner blocking you (a poor decision), I do think this is a great example of the strategy you mention.
My biggest question after watching this is: do terrans not 2-rax in tvz on NA server now? 90% of the games I've played on SEA, the terran opens 2-rax aggression blindly every game, usually into 2-rax FE.
Games 1-4 show stupid openers vs. zerg with poor scouting (given the information they had). Here, when they know you haven't expanded, they open 1-1-1 or some silly tech/expand without any defense to hold off 1-base aggression that is obviously coming.
Game 5 shows a below average 2-rax expand that gets owned, although it does look like you'd have won anyway.
My second question is: Do you typically lose to "2-rax --> turtle" with this build, or did you just not post the replays?
I've usually been doing 7RR which is admittedly much easier to scout and prepare for, and I like where this is going, as it hits a couple overlapping timing windows on terran's side (before banshee/siege, before expo from 2-rax, before drop shenanigans).
Would you care to share a few more replays, even losses? I would much appreciate it.
A lot of players do 2-rax (marine + bunker) and when they do, I end the game quite often. However players who set for an early (5-6min) M&M rush will destroy this built.
I don't have many replays where I lose and the ones I have, is all mid/late game losses, but I'll save and upload vidoes of when my cheese is countered in the future.
Usually when I do lose to 2-rax, 1-1-1, 2 gateway walls or 14 pool on 2 player maps, it's because I make minor micro mistakes or mess up my build order. When I'm not 100 percent focused all of these strategies tend to be less effective for obvious reasons
While half-watching this game, it looked like solid terran play. Then when I paused at 6:48 and saw he had 14 scvs, i cringed a little. 6:48 is the 30-worker saturation time for a one-basing terran player. He lost 2 scvs (maybe 3?) in the game, and obviously had to cut a little bit, but this guy cut 16 workers, and with a lot of money in the bank.
Still, in spite of how horrid this guy's play was, I think I'm sold enough on your strategy to try it myself for a while and see how it works. I'll post some replays if/when I have time to play some games today.
On February 22 2011 11:04 Dhalphir wrote: Defending a 7pool is not as simple as you are all making it out to be.
There is no real way to know whether he is making those 6 lings and following them up with more, or whether it was an economic 7pool opening, making the pool, droning up to 9 drones then using the double extractor cancel trick to make the initial 6 lings. If he does that, he only has to do 400 minerals of economic damage to you for it to have been a successful opening. If you throw down a forge and even only one cannon, thats 300 minerals right there, and if you throw down even one more cannon or he manages to sneak in and kill one or two probes or a pylon, he's ahead and will take his expansion while you're cannoned in.
it is much better to practise trying to beat off a 7pool using only zealots and probes, because if you overreact to what you think is an all-in, and it turns out to be an economic 7pool, you're going to be in trouble.
Remember, a 7pool not only gets very early zerglings, but it also gets a very early queen and if you cannon yourself in or hard-wall yourself in expecting an all-in 7pool, and he sends his first 6 lings and then makes a queen to drone hard, he will be ahead of you economically in no time at all.
You have no idea what you're talking about. It's impossible to stop a 6 pool on SoW w/o forge + cannon if you pylon scout (which is what you should do, contrary to OP saying to scout even earlier than that). Also the scouting probe will see your extra 3 drones which clues him in, as well as even if you do 400 minerals of damage you will still be behind because he would still have more workers who have been mining longer.
The video posted above you also made some subtle mistakes. He should've moved one of his probes to prepare to make a gateway/forge WHILE his probe scout made it over to their base, since whatever you scout you will be throwing down some building regardless. If he did this his cannon would not have went down. Also 2 cannons are not needed, again contrary to the video. 1 cannon will buy you enough time to get the necessary zealots. Once this holds I usually go blink stalkers, which it pretty much impossible to stop as zerg at that point.
Any decent player can scout and kill a 6 pool. Just because you cheesed your way to the master league does not make you a good player at all. Learn to play starcraft the way it was meant to be played and please don't ever call yourself a good player
EPT
