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On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
i played 4 toss in a row in the go4sc2 cup today (3-3.6k masters) i 7 pooled on Meta Scrap Xel'naga and Testbug and it worked every single time i won all games with a hydra push at the 15 minute mark.
Everybody scouted the 7 pool everyone threw down a forge + gateway or two gateways eitherway i killed atleast the forge and the gateway or even a few probes which pulls me greatly ahead in both tech and eco
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On February 21 2011 01:06 iamke55 wrote:
Nobody should 6 pool against any race. 7 pool is so far ahead economically that even if you want to bring drones and go all-in, you have 3 more drones to do it with.
I used to say/think the same, but fact is when 6 pooling against a Protos player timing is everything. Every second counts because once that first Cannon is up, you need to have destroyed his wall and have the Cannon on at least half health or it's an autowin for the Protos player.
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On February 21 2011 00:17 dehdar wrote:
Hmmm might work. But the zerglings can damage your structures and kill your probes that are used for blocking before you get your first zealot out and after it is out, you can pull your zergs back and only attack the buildings forcing you to move your zealot ahead to engage, giving the zerg player the possibility to get a surrounding and kill it. However if you get 2 zealots out in time before the gateway is destroyed, you'll be succesful, but I haven't seen it happen before.
There should be a complete wall off as soon as the coming zerglings are scouted, P just needs to put down to the space where Z should hold position and the first zealot comes out before any structure is killed. Then the first zealot is enough to delay the rush untill the second zealot comes.
Also you hold position your zealot just in front of the gateway so that it only attacks zerglings trying to attack the structures.
I am a zerg player btw but i showed this strat to a P friend of mine who used to struggle against early rushes. He no longer has any problems.
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This is an awful awful thread, why are you trying to teach players to cheese their way up the ladder without developing any actual skill at all. It's 100% retarded IMO, as your cheese is completely relying on your opponents poorly scouting/responding, and when you reach a certain level not many players are going to make these kinds of mistakes, and when the game is forced into standard play you will be infinitely behind, and lacking the skill to make any kind of comeback, or maintain any kind of advantage assuming you didn't flat out kill your opponent.
So really, all the noobs reading this thread and thinking "omg im on my way to masters now", don't bother, learn to macro and multi task efficiently instead as it will serve you much better, than a handful of worthless cheeses.
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nice, personally cheese is really fun to stop. but only simple cheese! I legit got tight at this guy who cannon rush + proxy gated me.
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On February 21 2011 01:36 BigBossX wrote:
This is an awful awful thread, why are you trying to teach players to cheese their way up the ladder without developing any actual skill at all. It's 100% retarded IMO, as your cheese is completely relying on your opponents poorly scouting/responding, and when you reach a certain level not many players are going to make these kinds of mistakes, and when the game is forced into standard play you will be infinitely behind, and lacking the skill to make any kind of comeback, or maintain any kind of advantage assuming you didn't flat out kill your opponent.
I hope people will learn how to cheese, because how else will they know how to defend against it? They won't. And again scouting very early is rarely seen in Master league and at high Diamond because you'll put yourself behind economically (every drone/scv/probe counts in the start). Scouting 1 second earlier can make all the difference.
If you're a Bronze player reading this, watch some replays, try and implement my strategies and learn how to defend yourself against it. Once you're comfortable cheesing and defending yourself against cheese, then you have a solid foundation of skills that you can build more on top of, such as how to early expand, etc. etc.
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On February 21 2011 02:22 dehdar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:36 BigBossX wrote:
This is an awful awful thread, why are you trying to teach players to cheese their way up the ladder without developing any actual skill at all. It's 100% retarded IMO, as your cheese is completely relying on your opponents poorly scouting/responding, and when you reach a certain level not many players are going to make these kinds of mistakes, and when the game is forced into standard play you will be infinitely behind, and lacking the skill to make any kind of comeback, or maintain any kind of advantage assuming you didn't flat out kill your opponent. I hope people will learn how to cheese, because how else will they know how to defend against it? They won't. And again scouting very early is rarely seen in Master league and at high Diamond because you'll put yourself behind economically (every drone/scv/probe counts in the start). Scouting 1 second earlier can make all the difference. If you're a Bronze player reading this, watch some replays, try and implement my strategies and learn how to defend yourself against it. Once you're comfortable cheesing and defending yourself against cheese, then you have a solid foundation of skills that you can build more on top of, such as how to early expand, etc. etc.
That's good explain from you, but I want to give a little Sample:
An new player(bronze) is reading this, and playing this. He will success with this into Diamand. So now he see that it wont work anymore. And now he is diamand without knowledge, the only thing he know to defend is cheese. But lategame macro/micro will be a fail.
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You cheesed your way into Master league, but how do you win matches in Master league playing a standard game? Or do you still just cheese players? What's sad is the only one of those cheeses that's hard to counter is the ZvZ, at least when you try playing a standard 14 pool build and find he 6 pooled. The concept of not scouting very early is that people -hope- that it is not going to be a 6 pool/cheese. I basically consider any time I lose to a cheese as a win, since I did not -try- to counter it. I know I can send my scout at 8 supply and easily fend off the early attacks, but I get no enjoyment out of beating someone who 6 pools. Winning isn't my ultimate objective, having fun is.
tl;dr
you should play a macro game.
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My favorite ZvP or ZvZ cheese:
Overpool (11 OL -> 11 pool)
Gas immediately as pool goes down
Drone up a bit
Queen + 2-4 lings immediately after pool finishes
ling speed asap, pull dudes off gas
You start researching speed at 3:08 if you did it right and you out produce an 8 pool on lings, but there is a slight delay before your first few lings come out. If you do it properly, with constant ling production you have enough spare minerals to throw up a second hatchery at around standard speedling opener's 21 hatch timing.
Second favorite (especially vs p):
8 pool with drone drill
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Well knowing how to defend cheese and all-ins is pretty important.
Contrary to popular belief, cheese isnt really any less common at higher levels, its just a little more refined.
In bronze, players might try to bunkerrush your main, or cannonrush your main, and so on.
But in high diamond/low master, as a zerg for example, being faced with bunker rushes on your natural, cannon rushes on your nat, double bunker ramp blocks, 4gates, thor drops on lost temple, cloak banshee rush, DT rush, blue flamed hellion drops, and so on, its about 80% of the game I play.
An incredibly low number of players try to beat me straight up, though superior macro, micro, strategy, good transitions, or timings. The rest, around 80% of them, try to rely on some kind of trick or surprise, and hoping I wont scout/notice/be prepared. And when their one-step plan doesnt work, they lose.
So yeah, even in diamond/low master, knowing how to detect and defend cheese/all ins, is still the number 1 skill to have.
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I met a Zerg called NanoVapor on ladder the other day - 3050 masters at the time and he only 6 pools.
Even in our game on scrap station he tried to 6 pool me. So it is definetely possible without having any knowledge of the game whatsoever.
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I'm in masters and I lose to 6/7 pools not too infrequently, especially on 4 player maps. I may just be bad but I don't think it is as trivial to scout in time and stop as people are making it out to be. I'm not at all surprised you can get into masters with it.
Action Jesus proved at dreamhack that you can do okay at the pro level 6 pooling half your games. Idra was litterally 1 single zergling hit away from killing Jinro with it in GSL on a 2 player map. People acting like its trivial to stop 6 pools and saying it could never win at a high level are being completely ridiculous.
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you can because it depends when he scouts you on a 4 player map or how long the rush distance is. which makes it silly because you're depending on that rather than you being better than the other guy.
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As a terran player playing against Z who often do that roach build I only have a few comments to make.
First of all if the Terran is going two barracks, your build is a strong build, but it's used as a containment and you can expand while putting on pressure, hoping that you should have enough potential damage to take down a bunker, chances are you won't, but your opponent may make a mistake.
I'd like to add to the build by saying that you should try and sneak and overlord to your opponents front. If you do this you can exploit his building positioning (assuming he blocked). This way you can maximize damage while expanding.
I suppose that is all :p I'm hungry.
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On February 20 2011 23:58 Flyingpants wrote:
All the terren has to do is make a bunker or two and be able to repair it, to hold off any agression like this.
In ZvZ, sure 7 pool will get you far, in zvp, i don't think 6 pool is that strong, maybe in diamond or below.
If you want to cheese all the way to masters, you would be better off doing it as terren and just making proxy rax and bunkers.
Actually cheese works much better in diamond than in gold and below. Cause they are all cheesing themselves.
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On February 21 2011 02:54 Blargh wrote:
You cheesed your way into Master league, but how do you win matches in Master league playing a standard game? Or do you still just cheese players? What's sad is the only one of those cheeses that's hard to counter is the ZvZ, at least when you try playing a standard 14 pool build and find he 6 pooled. The concept of not scouting very early is that people -hope- that it is not going to be a 6 pool/cheese. I basically consider any time I lose to a cheese as a win, since I did not -try- to counter it. I know I can send my scout at 8 supply and easily fend off the early attacks, but I get no enjoyment out of beating someone who 6 pools. Winning isn't my ultimate objective, having fun is.
tl;dr
you should play a macro game.
Excuse me, but are you claiming that it's more fun to lose to 6 pool than scout for it and counter in order to win? If so, please feel free to play me anytime you like. I promise you'll have a lot of fun. 
On February 21 2011 02:58 JustPlay wrote:
My favorite ZvP or ZvZ cheese:
Overpool (11 OL -> 11 pool)
Gas immediately as pool goes down
Drone up a bit
Queen + 2-4 lings immediately after pool finishes
ling speed asap, pull dudes off gas
You start researching speed at 3:08 if you did it right and you out produce an 8 pool on lings, but there is a slight delay before your first few lings come out. If you do it properly, with constant ling production you have enough spare minerals to throw up a second hatchery at around standard speedling opener's 21 hatch timing.
Second favorite (especially vs p):
8 pool with drone drill
It will work against Zerg players, but unless you follow it with a baneling bust it won't be much good against Terran or Protos players since they will have walled up by the time you initiate your first attack.
If you have any replays please feel free to post them and I'll add them to the main thread.
Sometimes when I see 14 hatch, I drone up till I have 16 drones, drop a hatch (in the corner of my base so it won't be spotted) followed by a pool and an extractor. I drone up till I have about 22 drones, make 2 queens at the same time (1 at each base), research speedling and attack with an overwhelming amount of speedlings.
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Don't think I can agree here. I'm a high diamond almost to masters (won 9 in a row) and I am VERY susceptible to this build. I usually scout after my 9 pylon and often times by the time I reach him his pool is finished and zerglings being morphed. It's made me scout at 7 or 8 vs. zerg on a 4 player map. Once scouted it's easy to beat. It's also forced me to stop building my structures near my nexus vs. zerg as I prefer to do. I hate choking my base as it screws up the effectiveness of my ff play.
He's posting this as information. I'm glad he did. Just shows you how many different strategies can be employed while still having great results. Even being in Diamond just using cheese is kind of an accomplishment. He must execute it flawlessly.
On February 21 2011 00:06 Gemini_19 wrote:
6 pooling vs protoss isn't very good at all. Anyone that knows what their doing can easily stop it as long as they can scout it.
The only benefit I see of doing a 6pool is if you don't rely on the 6 pool as aggression but as containment, allowing you to easily expand and get mutas after you know he's gonna be forced inside his base.
I'm all in all a bit confused on exactly why you posted this. You say show how to cheese to masters..but then discourage people from cheesing to masters. O_o
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To be honest, I am disappointed. How can a master player lose to a 6 pool, roach rush or a spine crawler rush? I thought diamond/master players would be able to defend it :/
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The build orders are cheesy and requires no skill pulling off, but you must know when/how/what to engage/harass.
Lol I hope you don't really think this, or are exaggerating but are just saying this humbly and as an understatement in advance of anyone who will bash you for making this thread.
Thanks for sharing anyway, some of your counters are strange and I don't quite agree but I will consider it next time.
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I agree with a lot of posters that say go 7 pool > 6 pool. Anyways, I am protoss and I never lose to 7 pool shenanigans. I LOVE it when people go 7 pool. Basically, just cheese. Eventaully people will cry imbalanced or they will learn and then we get infinite amount of joy from defending against cheese.
You are completely right though. The strategy forum is ALWAYS littered with. Chronoboost zealot and stupid shenanigans that is never correct lol.
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EPT
