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On February 21 2011 04:44 ReketSomething wrote:
I agree with a lot of posters that say go 7 pool > 6 pool. Anyways, I am protoss and I never lose to 7 pool shenanigans. I LOVE it when people go 7 pool. Basically, just cheese. Eventaully people will cry imbalanced or they will learn and then we get infinite amount of joy from defending against cheese.
You are completely right though. The strategy forum is ALWAYS littered with. Chronoboost zealot and stupid shenanigans that is never correct lol.
+1
Chronoboosted zealot gets owned here. Especially if he brings drones along and hits you from behind as well. Even without drones, if he micros well he won't lose a single ling.
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ha nice post. thx for sharing. I'm pretty sure these strats work, the roach build vs terran is imo the one thing that can go wrong somewhat easily. But that may just be because I execute it badly 
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Can you post replays of where your opponent counters correctly? On your toss replay vs. Keepdreaming (I think) it looks to me like he counters correctly but still loses. Maybe he should have rallied his zealot into your ball of lings?
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Excellent information to have. I'm not much of using Cheese, but understanding how you played the games to win gave me some good knowledge to have. Much appreciation for sharing, also well formatted.
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On February 21 2011 05:44 hocash wrote:
Can you post replays of where your opponent counters correctly? On your toss replay vs. Keepdreaming (I think) it looks to me like he counters correctly but still loses. Maybe he should have rallied his zealot into your ball of lings?
Sure thing. Next time I lose while cheesing to a good counter attack, I will save it and upload it.
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Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
EDIT:
It should be better to make a Roach All-In vs Protoss? or I'm wrong.
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On February 21 2011 05:58 _Aurus_ wrote:
Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
EDIT:
It should be better to make a Roach All-In vs Protoss? or I'm wrong.
Roach all in vs. Toss is easy to beat with good FF play. You'll get split in half on his ramp and take the full brunt of zealots up front with sentries/stalkers in back. If he scouts the roach warren he may have immortals as well which is obviously terrible for roaches.
6 pool done well (like OP) is impossible to stop if it isn't scouted super early. Check his replays. What could his opponents have done better AFTER they scouted?
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On February 21 2011 05:58 _Aurus_ wrote:
Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
EDIT:
It should be better to make a Roach All-In vs Protoss? or I'm wrong.
Shit happens, even pro players lose to 6/7pools.
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I thought I know how to stop 6 pool, but for example in the PvZ blistering sands replay your opponent (keepdreaming) seems to respond the best way I know how and still loses pretty hard.
What did he do wrong? Does he need to rally the zealot out to die to the zerglings in an effort to buy the cannon time to finish? Or did the cannon need to be further back?
I'm not sure there was ever a point where pulling probes would help.
He seemed to follow the OPs counter exactly and still lost.
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On February 21 2011 00:13 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i would personally recommend to go 7 pool against protoss, but other than that im pretty sure that these builds can get you to a masters if it is well executed. actually even i had a time where i 7 pooled alot in ZvP in ladder to practise it a bit and to see in what situation/spawns etc. it works against what builds and i actually won over 50% of my games and my micro is not even particularly good.
You mean the Build Order 7pool 7overlord or something special, because If I would play protoss, and i see a 7pool i would build cannons too.
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From now on when I'm laddering, I'm going to scout at 9. I hate cheese and when i see it i go soo overboard so i know that i will win :D. See overboard as bringing lots of probes to help defend but maybe you do need to bring them off mining after all... 2 gate proxys on the other hand are just lol.
Scouting is sooo key in sc, information is power! :D
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TLO vs. Huk he 7 pooled with no rush to force a forge, cannons, and complete wall off. It actually gave him a nice advantage
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scouted early pool is easy to stop, if scouted early enough.
what makes 6 pool or 7 pool good is when it is done on a 4 player map
and you scout it too late so you used may be already a chronoboost on probes, binding ressources.
most times you can wall of, but the zerglings can still tear down the buildings.
on short distances any early pool is doomed to fail.
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On February 21 2011 05:58 _Aurus_ wrote:
Every Silver+ Protoss defend a 6pool. A Protoss who fail vs 6pool and he is higher then silver. then he is in the wrong league.
Shall I remind you of ActionJesus' performance?
I have hardly seen any cheese since I entered Diamond, and that was a while ago. I can understand how players loose against cheesy builds, having a rusty defensive tactic never helps. I know I never take the time to analyze and learn every possible cheese, so I must be quite vulnerable to cheese in general.
Also, cheese isn't any sort of inferior or illegal play. If there is no counter, then there's an imbalance, but if there is a counter then there is no reason to despise cheese nor cheesers.
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Cheeses are great fun, and if unscouted, very powerful. And a lot of people scout late.
Reminds me of the Jinro vs Idra game in GSL for example, where no / late scout, had a large impact on the response, if not the outcome of the game.
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Good luck, now, when he stops your cheese, and you get into a 2/3+ base macro game, you're going to lose every time. I look forward to beating you now.
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On February 21 2011 06:30 chuigo wrote:
Good luck, now, when he stops your cheese, and you get into a 2/3+ base macro game, you're going to lose every time. I look forward to beating you now.
Please read the OP before raging at him, he is merely making a guide of strong cheesy builds with the respective counters. I don't recall him advocating cheese nor boasting about his performance.
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It's completely unnecessary to go 10 pool in ZvZ. A 14 pool does just fine as long as you're not doing anything foolish.
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On February 21 2011 06:11 tarath wrote:
I thought I know how to stop 6 pool, but for example in the PvZ blistering sands replay your opponent (keepdreaming) seems to respond the best way I know how and still loses pretty hard.
What did he do wrong? Does he need to rally the zealot out to die to the zerglings in an effort to buy the cannon time to finish? Or did the cannon need to be further back?
I'm not sure there was ever a point where pulling probes would help.
If you do everything right, you don't need to pull probes. I just watched the match and analyzed what he did wrong. He almost did everything right, but he made two minor mistakes which cost him the game.
![[image loading]](http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7594/36559157.png)
Mistake 1: He placed his cannon behind his Forge allowing me to attack it as soon as I destroyed his Forge. If instead he had swapped it with the Pylon, he would have won the game.
Mistake 2: His Zealot is useless and waiting to get killed. If instead he had created a small gap next to his cannon, it could help kill my zerglings while filling the gap denying my zerglings to enter his base.
Mistake 3: His APM was low. When you scout you want to see that Spawning pool as fast as possible. Instead his probe was standing still a few seconds and he didn't notice I was 6 pooling before I pulled 6 zerglings to his base. To make it short, he reacted slowly. If he had reacted a little faster, he would have had a better chance to win despite the first two critical mistakes.
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On February 21 2011 06:42 dehdar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 06:11 tarath wrote:
I thought I know how to stop 6 pool, but for example in the PvZ blistering sands replay your opponent (keepdreaming) seems to respond the best way I know how and still loses pretty hard.
What did he do wrong? Does he need to rally the zealot out to die to the zerglings in an effort to buy the cannon time to finish? Or did the cannon need to be further back?
I'm not sure there was ever a point where pulling probes would help. If you do everything right, you don't need to pull probes. I just watched the match and analyzed what he did wrong. He almost did everything right, but he made two minor mistakes which cost him the game. Mistake 1: He placed his cannon behind his Forge allowing me to attack it as soon as I destroyed his Forge. If instead he had swapped it with the Pylon, he would have won the game. Mistake 2: His Zealot is useless and waiting to get killed. If instead he had created a small gap next to his cannon, it could help kill my zerglings while filling the gap denying my zerglings to enter his base. Mistake 3: His APM was low. When you scout you want to see that Spawning pool as fast as possible. Instead his probe was standing still a few seconds and he didn't notice I was 6 pooling before I pulled 6 zerglings to his base. To make it short, he reacted slowly. If he had reacted a little faster, he would have had a better chance to win despite the first two critical mistakes.
Indeed, I guess in general your forge will fall first so putting the cannon next to the gateway is a good rule of thumb to remember.
Mistake 2 is much more subtle but very interesting and not something I had considered.
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EPT
