[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 39

gautamvirk86

India55 Posts

February 07 2011 07:06 GMT

#761

But just like any other ALL IN or any other god dam build, you can counter this all long as you scout it coming, it is very beatable and Addonex proves that

Hi i'm just wondering if anyone can take a look at my 3 replays i have beating this build
i just do a 2 gate CBing stalkers this is my normal counter to a 7rr also

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=member_replays&member_id=176479

just look at the reply called "new 3rr ling build defeated hard"

Dubpace

United States251 Posts

February 07 2011 07:18 GMT

#762

On February 07 2011 15:55 gautamvirk86 wrote:
This Build is AMAZING and it fits in so perfectly, but there is a easy ways to scout this as a protoss player

Stopped Drone production at 15 (major giveaway of an all in) you dont even have to wait for roach warren to go down to realize this, but you should still hang around to make sure.

So do what you need to do since i only play zerg i cant help you in defending it, but if you know this all in is coming then good luck.

Actually stopping drone production at 15 food is actually kind quite standard in ZvP if you open 14 gas 14 pool speedling expand. The only real give away is the fast roach warren right after the pool finishes.

enykie

Germany64 Posts

February 07 2011 10:29 GMT

#763

i think now the most toss players get the feeling of being 4gatet. its boring... and because you can crush 4gate with this, and nearly everyone on ladder is 4gating its successful, but its also boring... lol

but i think, toss general is thinking to narrow, everything is based on warpgate tech, why no 2 gate opening with litte early pressure.

cyrusdm

Canada55 Posts

February 07 2011 14:49 GMT

#764

On February 07 2011 04:22 cyrusdm wrote:

For starters, build your pilon in the middle of your upper ramp so if you see this all in you can do a wall in. Its a small change you can make that greatly improves your odds of survival.

If you do a gateway gas gateway core, save 2 or 3 chrono's yada yada yada..... I can have 4 stalkers out behind a wall by 4:58 game time. All this while having 19 probes vs his 14 drones.

This attack hit you at 5:15.

The roaches are what will eat your pilon, so if you target fire them down with the stalkers you very well could hold it off without him being able to get the pylon down.
If he does get it to the point where its almost down, this wall configuration should allow you to place an emergency blocking pilon behind the first pylon. I was able to do it on metal 5'oclock position, but haven't tried on the other sides.

Did this over 3 practice games so I'm sure it could be refined more. You'd obviously need to scout early, or do the 2 stalker opener blind (which isn't a total fail). You could also reasonably delay the 2nd gateway until later when you would of scouted it for sure...in that case you're likely to only have 3 stalks out by the time the attack hits, with the 4th on the way.

Would love for better players than me to test this out, as I don't have a solid zerg partner to try it with.

For people still wondering how to stomp this all in, I posted this earlier in the thread and its still effective.

Its as free of a win as you can possibly get.

cyrusdm

Canada55 Posts

February 07 2011 15:00 GMT

#765

On February 07 2011 16:06 gautamvirk86 wrote:
But just like any other ALL IN or any other god dam build, you can counter this all long as you scout it coming, it is very beatable and Addonex proves that

Show nested quote +

just look at the reply called "new 3rr ling build defeated hard"

I think this replay shows it fine. The zerg didn't execute his build properly - but regardless the fast stalkers end all possibility of this attack being successful.

I still think its best to include the original pilon in the wall though. By building the pilon in the middle of the upper ramp and then the gateway sealing the one side, you're able to throw down the cyber core behind the 1st gateway and then put a 2nd gateway down completely sealing off the entrance.

Also, one comment about the build that Addonex posted a replay off...I think you can delay your 2nd pilon so that you can get your 2nd gateway out a little sooner. I don't believe this will result in you getting supply locked and it gets you stalkers that much faster.

ihateshaman

United States3 Posts

February 07 2011 15:22 GMT

#766

I'm a little confused on all the QQ about not being able to beat a build specifically made to counter your build. Especially when you open normally. If you refuse to change your BO, you're going to get beat. I'm a little irritated, regardless of who you are, that you ask for advice and then refuse to try any of it.

da_head

Canada3350 Posts

February 07 2011 15:31 GMT

#767

i played against this recently. i had my probe in his base, and saw that he put down a roach immediately after his pool was done. i responded by putting down a forge immediately and 2 cannons. however, i feel that a robo transition into obs to see what he's doing is a poor choice. Especially since he transitioned into muta/ling and tore me apart. I think it would be better to 3 gate (or maybe 4), get hallu asap (comes out wicked fast with chrono), apply pressure and either kill him or expand behind it.

taakie

1 Post

February 07 2011 19:19 GMT

#768

Dear Davis,

I watched your replay a couple of times and noted the following in chronological order:

- 1st pylon is 20 minerals late.
- If you go for a 12 gate, thats shaves of another 17 seconds, granted the 13th probe is a bit delayed. (huge imo)
- cyber is 50 minerals late.
- 2nd gas is definitely a mistake.
- how did you scoute exactly? The probe only saw drones.
- Ur APM was mostly 60ish (like me and i'm in bronze league in EU)
- Dont queue stuff, day9 hates it

- At the 5:00 mark you had 23 probes and a 150/100 army, zealot and sentry.

I downloaded the qxc tester map, tested a bit and came up with the following probe/army comp (even took the probe of minerals that created the gateway)

- 26 probes (could be more, I screwed up)
- 2 zealots, 2 sentries and a wooping 5 stalkers

On another note, you could go fast forge as the +1 attack really helps vs lings.
+1 is also very good with collosus, which I assume your midgame plan was anyways (and a rush like that does not throw off a master off this midgame plan, right?)

btw, what was your midgame plan?
In 5 mins I can also get 27 probes, 1 zealot and sentry, 2 stalkers and 2 immortals.

-Taakie

Nevermind, the timer in the build tester is waayyyyyyyyy off

Got 1 zealot and 2 stalkers .... lol

[Nosferatu]

United States9 Posts

February 07 2011 19:38 GMT

#769

I've noticed that zerg players don't really know how to deal with this build either. They always go heavy on roaches in zvz and are not expecting the early speedlings. If you are faster than your opponent in zvz then odds are you will win with this build.

Now if I could just figure out how to beat Terran players quickly. Those are always long games ><

GrassEater

Sweden417 Posts

February 07 2011 19:41 GMT

#770

Speedling expand builds often are 14 pool 14 gas or 14 gas 13 pool. So if you see a 13 pool 12 gasl then you can go ahead and have your probe at his base when pool finish. Don't know what is best, 13 pool --> chance to sneak an expansion when the protoss probe is scouting the main or a 14 pool --> expand a bit later.

I am 700 points behind you so the zerg players you are playing would win vs me regardless of what build they use. But i can really notice how good zergplayers can get ahead of you very fast, and i understand why you need to block this hatchery as long as possible in order to not to get to far behind.

I am also a bit worried about the state of TL. People don't seams to realize that you are interested in ways to incorporate a counter into your standard protoss play.

And i plan to learn to see the difference between a 13 and a 14 pool because of this rush.

SlapMySalami

United States1060 Posts

February 07 2011 21:43 GMT

#771

TT1 just fell to this on his stream. He went forge expand with 4 or 5 cannons on lost temple. He put the forge and gateway in front of his cannons. The 3 roaches picked off the forge and a high ground pylon and later banelings came in to clean up the cannons.

lyrlian

Netherlands257 Posts

February 08 2011 00:10 GMT

#772

I think this just happened to me on zel naga and because of this awesome thread, I totally over reacted and made 3 canons and held it off easily. Just wanted to say thanks to the people in this thread for making me win this :D and share the replay of the game.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/136335-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna

(im only high diamond Eu player, dont expect too much. I do realise a good zerg wouldve killed me because I invested ALOT (too much?) in cannons.

Elldar

Sweden287 Posts

February 08 2011 00:31 GMT

#773

I am just a bit curious why you did not scout his pool? (or was the replay broken?) You saw his gas finished (or at least how much gased he had mined) as you did that curl around and then seen his pool finished right afterwards. That would had given you the intel that he was not going for speed asap.

Then you should at least expected that he was doing something unorthodox. Like roaches, banelings or perhaps fast lair, or some weird fast expand with later ling speed build (however the fact that he got pool first mean he can't afford the expand hatch that quickly and your probe could had blocked it).

I am not that good with protoss since I play zerg. However if I were you I would first try delay second gas. In other words second gate, before second gas and third gate when you could afford it. (this perhaps delay second sentry? however you had 1 unspent chrono boost that might make up for it ??? produce mainly stalkers and sentries,perhaps first unit has to be a zealot). Scout to see expanded if not, use chrono boost on units rather than warp gate might be an option.
If that did not work I would put down 1 forge before second gas then second gateway (as response to his spawning pool and not necessarily required to scout the roach warren) and play a forge fast expand game (sound a bit flimsy when I put that thought into words).

Blocking the ramp with pylon or gateway seem not so drastical since you then know his economy is lacking. All you need is to buy time.

Amanitar

Netherlands26 Posts

February 08 2011 00:31 GMT

#774

Woah, this is damn strong o.O Wouldn't stalkers + Complete walloff be able to deal with it?

Just to throw something out there:
I'm saying forge FE will become standard for toss, as in, nearly every Game. This will be ONE of the strongest zerg all-ins against it, and can be stopped by adding more cannons + cancelling Nexus.

iChau

United States1210 Posts

February 08 2011 00:41 GMT

#775

On February 08 2011 06:43 SlapMySalami wrote:
TT1 just fell to this on his stream. He went forge expand with 4 or 5 cannons on lost temple. He put the forge and gateway in front of his cannons. The 3 roaches picked off the forge and a high ground pylon and later banelings came in to clean up the cannons.

How did the roaches pick off the buildings on lost temple ?If you have 4-5 cannons you should be able to defend the wall from EVERY angle. Hell, I think 4-5 cannons is the max you can put behind the walls, iirc. He probably didn't know this build yet and was surprised. If he put supporting pylons he would've done better.

Afterstar

67 Posts

February 08 2011 17:43 GMT

#776

How about blindly opening with a Forge, then when you scout if you see any indication of the roach rush you make cannons otherwise you transition into 4GATE +1 attack upgrade or FE with cannons.
Wouldn't that work?

Stalkers + Complete wall off also work.

whomybuddy

United States620 Posts

February 08 2011 20:10 GMT

#777

Let a bad player tell you how to stop this. You cut probe and make faster gateway. faster cyber core. faster units to defend. Everything is faster by losing a bit of economy.

Salv

Canada3083 Posts

February 08 2011 20:54 GMT

#778

Ever since this thread this build has become a lot more popular, but forge is still the best option. Two cannons, a zealot, and chronoing out sentries does just fine holding this off. Transitioning to robotics play afterward is a bad idea, and it's generally better to three or four gate behind this to put a lot of pressure so they will lose right away if they droned too hard, and if they defend, you're ahead. I've yet to lose to this after playing it a couple times. It's easy to spot, and it's easy to defend. I don't do any builds that straight-counter it, so maybe that's why I have a lot of success - what I do safely gets me to midgame without being behind at all, and likely putting him behind instead.

Jayrod

1820 Posts

February 09 2011 00:14 GMT

#779

I held this off fairly easily the other day by just blocking with a 2nd gateway and doing the stalker thing. It works, he built the units anyways and I held it off, transitioned to blink but realized before pushing out that he was gonna have a ton of speedlings, mixed in some zealots meaning i had to kill a gateway to get out of the base. I blocked it with a pylon and threw down a nexus and proxy pylon with my blink + zealot attack. He barely held it off with hydra/ling and the game just kind of turned into a normal game from there.

My concern was in watching the replay and noticing that he surpassed my worker count in 1 cycle (2 total but one of them he gets to choose if hes gonna reinforce or drone). Since he retreated wisely after losing just 2 roaches, he still had a lot of stuff to defend his base with, he was able to freely drone and surpass me very easily, hold off my timed attack (though it was delayed by zealots) and be fairly even with me. I actually disconnected from this game around 15 minutes but we were pretty even at that point, I was like 3k ahead in points on the score screen.

I guess I can't help feeling that an All-In SHOULD be almost impossible to recover from. He wasn't actually behind at all.

Acridice

United States298 Posts

February 09 2011 00:51 GMT

#780

This build can be tricky because a tiny micro mistake can cause you to lose it. You ought to be scouting the entire game vs zerg, so if you no it's coming it is very easy to stop. For example, this just happened to me on Steppes of War which zerg really like to do on that map.

I scouted on 9, saw a pool on 14, and then a gas right after. I was like okay, hmmm maybe this build because the gas comes after pool all the times I've run into this build. Either way, I continued doing my thing. If you play fairly standard in PvZ, then you're probably going for something like a 3gate expand on SoW. This is what I was doing, so my next unit out of my gateway was a sentry.

The probe I originally scouted with, I was hiding somewhere on the map in order to suicide it into his base. When I did so, I saw no hatch. was like uh oh. Threw up a forge. Since I was going 3 gate expand, I was making sentries anyways. So when he came, i FF the bottom of the ramp. Your warpgates should be finishing just as he is getting there. So with a few FF's at the bottom of the ramp, you can get a few more sentries out when warpgate is done and throw up a couple cannons and be just fine. If need be completely wall off.

On LT, I go 15nexus. I love when zerg tries to bust my front, because they will inevitably fail. The choke is to small. You just need to make sure you're constantly scouting and suiciding probes into his base. If you don't see an expo you obviously know something is up. Depending on the threat level, you put up how many ever cannons you think you need. If he's going for some sort of roach bust, put a couple cannons on the high ground at the choke.

The key with these builds is to make sure you are scouting. It really helps to hide your first scouting probe and then suicide him in at like 4 mins or so. If you don't see an expo, then get ready to defend (throw down a forge and chrono out some sentries).

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