EPTThe only thing left I can think of is defending far expos from marine drops TvZ. As far as army comps go though, they are far too squishy, which combined with their high priority just ends up in a gas dump.
[ D ] - Why aren't Zerg pros using Infestors? - Page 5
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vaLentine88
United States61 Posts
The only thing left I can think of is defending far expos from marine drops TvZ. As far as army comps go though, they are far too squishy, which combined with their high priority just ends up in a gas dump. | ||
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bobucles
410 Posts
- Superior concaves, especially when hydras are on the field. - Block off choke points. - Buy time for new waves of reinforcements, or for the Nydus to unload. - Freeze units for baneling bombs. - Concaves against air. This mechanic is not possible otherwise, but can work with Corruptors or hydras. - Casters can't get in range for some abilities (like graviton beam) - all forms of AA can't chase down brood lords. This is amazing, and if I remembered the replay (one of day9's more recent shows), you'd cry nerf. - Vikings can't transform (I think?) - Stalkers can't blink in or out, losing their most important attribute- speed. - Lock down and kill drop ships, keeping bases safe. - frozen units can't go into drop ships (can they still deploy?) Can tanks change mode? I'm inclined to think they can't. Revealing cloaked units is a nice bonus as well, which is mostly not needed except against a Mothership. For the most part, a Zerg army can not hold up directly against Terran or Protoss. This changes dramatically with Fungal Growth. A few doses can knock a force's health in half or worse, and lose all the kiting power they tend to have over Zerg. It's like fighting someone who a-moves with the handicap settings. The best part is once they're trapped, they can't do much but gladly accept additional doses of Fungal Growth. Most Zerg are over eager with their Infestors, and charge in before FG damage kicks in. Be patient, this is one case where you should let the fungus do its job. So what isn't there to love? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 01 2011 11:30 vaLentine88 wrote: I've experimented and failed hard everytime in anything outside ZvZ. The only thing left I can think of is defending far expos from marine drops TvZ. As far as army comps go though, they are far too squishy, which combined with their high priority just ends up in a gas dump. I think this is really the issue here. People play with them and don't instantly own with them so they just quit. If anyone watched Julyzerg's zvt up/down match, he was using NP on marines at 4 range from a filled bunker, and suiciding groups of infestors into marines while a-moving. And he's code-S. People just don't take the time to be good with them. Gas is a good reason, but think even in terms of ZvP vs a "death ball" Infestors aren't bad, they just require a lot more skill to use than every other unit in the game in my opinion (maybe Raven is equal). because of that, most people just don't have the patience to do it. I guarantee you that if you check back in a year, Infestors will be much more widely used. And I don't expect them to get any buffs because they are already a tremendous unit. It's higher risk but much higher reward. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 01 2011 12:06 mlbrandow wrote: Infestors aren't bad, they just require a lot more skill to use than every other unit in the game in my opinion (maybe Raven is equal). because of that, most people just don't have the patience to do it. I guarantee you that if you check back in a year, Infestors will be much more widely used. And I don't expect them to get any buffs because they are already a tremendous unit. It's higher risk but much higher reward. Sums it up pretty much. Infestors should and will be as influential in ZvT as Defilers in BW. except defilers do not require nearly as much control. infestor control is similar to muta micro in BW in terms of amount of time and apm. | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
A picture says more than a thousand words, so here you go: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RYF4E.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GCbZk.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E2OCr.jpg) Used 3 Infestors, lost one to the Tank, but well worth it. Would probably be effective vs Thor drops too. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Infestors aren't bad, they just require a lot more skill to use than every other unit in the game in my opinion Dunno why people seem to think that infestors require so incredibly much skill to use. Seriously, range on fungal is the same as storm, energy cost is the same, radius is a little more. If you can storm an army, you can fungal an army. Infestors should and will be as influential in ZvT as Defilers in BW. Not really. They dont have much in common appart from both being pretty powerful casters. The reason why defilers were good, was that they were very good against ranged units, and structures, which the opponents would have a lot of. If somehow for example firebats ended up being the main army units for terran, then defilers would have quite obviously been a lot less useful. Defilers with dark swarm are good, if the opponent relies on a lot of ranged units, but if you were faced with something like ultra-ling constantly, then getting dark swarm would be useless. Infestors are good against highly mobile units, to shut down that mobility. If they get used or not will depend entirely on what the opponents end up using a lot. Taking terran as an example: the more bio, hellions, and mobile stuff the terran makes, the better the infestors. The more the terran relies on a slow push of leapfrogging tanks though, the less useful infestors will be. Fungal growth on a bunch of marine marauders trying to abuse mobility to kite ultralisks and banelings: Makes a ton of sense. They are trying to abuse mobility, you shut it down. Good stuff. Fungal growth on tanks slowly leapfrogging towards your base? sure, you made the tanks even slower, but since they were really slow in the first place, it doesnt really change anything. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Not really. They dont have much in common appart from both being pretty powerful casters. The reason why defilers were good, was that they were very good against ranged units, and structures, which the opponents would have a lot of. If somehow for example firebats ended up being the main army units for terran, then defilers would have quite obviously been a lot less useful. Defilers with dark swarm are good, if the opponent relies on a lot of ranged units, but if you were faced with something like ultra-ling constantly, then getting dark swarm would be useless. Infestors are good against highly mobile units, to shut down that mobility. If they get used or not will depend entirely on what the opponents end up using a lot. Taking terran as an example: the more bio, hellions, and mobile stuff the terran makes, the better the infestors. The more the terran relies on a slow push of leapfrogging tanks though, the less useful infestors will be. Fungal growth on a bunch of marine marauders trying to abuse mobility to kite ultralisks and banelings: Makes a ton of sense. They are trying to abuse mobility, you shut it down. Good stuff. Fungal growth on tanks slowly leapfrogging towards your base? sure, you made the tanks even slower, but since they were really slow in the first place, it doesnt really change anything. infestors require alot of skill because unlike storm, you can use it in a variety of ways, and just throwing it out can be harmful compared to it's other use. similarly dark swarm in BW could be used to hold an entrenched position, or leapfrog onto a fortified position. fungal growth can be used to separate enemy units, prevent concaves, damage, forcibly stack enemy air, prevent drops, prevent vikings from landing/taking off, trap units in a choke. all very different uses for different circumstances, Psionic storm has damage, force retreat. and also using infestors requires alot of apm to dance them back and forth in range separate from your army templar are too slow and alot more resilient in this regard. and i didn't say that defilers = infestors, but i said the impact defilers had on ZvT in BW will = the impact infestors will have on ZvT in SC2. which is very different. and infestors are pretty good vs tanks, forcing siege mode in very poor positions is much stronger than you give credit for. and also forcing a terran to slowly (very) push out is equally strong. | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:19 MrCon wrote: Because you have to micro the infestors, and zergs want to play a mAcRoGaMe and basicaly they don't do micro. Micro is for lame races likes terran and protosses. MaCrO is for leet races that lose because blizzard can't do shit with balance. So most zergs don't use infestors because they don't have the micro skill to use them, so they think infestors sucks. User was warned for this post Stimming and sieging tanks isn't some great feat of micro. I would actually say given the shorter range of Zerg units they require more micro than that of the Terran army. Due to the necessity of flanks, concaves and surrounds. However obviously Toss is most micro intensive where things like positioning of types of units, and placement of storms, feedbacks and force fields are critical. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On February 01 2011 11:30 vaLentine88 wrote: I've experimented and failed hard everytime in anything outside ZvZ. The only thing left I can think of is defending far expos from marine drops TvZ. As far as army comps go though, they are far too squishy, which combined with their high priority just ends up in a gas dump. I have to agree as well, sometimes I do awesome stuff, but its usually luck/opponent not used to infestors more than anything (other than zvz where they absolutely destroy). Most of the time I use them against air or marines only versus T (when I should be getting NP and doing epic thor and tank ninjas) and I rarely get them versus P, even with all the damn phoenix flying around. I try so hard to get them every game when I have a reasonable opportunity, but if I overproduce and try to make magic happen I tend to fail, so I only make a few and use them too defensively. | ||
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dLKnighT
Canada735 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
On February 01 2011 14:00 ChroMe! wrote: Well other than being on the more expensive-ish side, they're really only good against Terran cas of their bio, and a much better and cheaper alternative are banelings. You really only see them in ZvP if the P has a lot of Phoenixes which is rare and ZvZ with mass Mutas. not just mutas my friend, roach/hydra/infestor v roach/hydra/infestor zvz leads to epic battles of chicken and tactical decisionmaking | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
1) The unit is too big and noticeable. That makes them easy to target, easy to snipe, easy to take out. It should be ghost / high templar sized, so harder to pick out when part of an army. 2) Neural parasite costs too much gas and time to open up midgame (100 for pit, 150 per infestor, 150 or 300 in research, 190 in research time for both upgrades). So getting both upgrades and 6 infestors = 1300 gas. That's 10 mutas +1 or 11 mutas, or 13 mutas if you are getting spire either way. Or just simply 52 banelings. Off 2 bases, that's harsh. Off 4 bases, not so much. So getting it when you have reached tier 3 seems ok - but then they aren't as good as brood lords or even ultras imho, so I don't bother. Probably I should, when I reach 4 bases and is maxed. 3) Ignoring neural parasite (which I don't find too useful mid game because of the above-mentioned cost), fungal growth and infested terrans are useful - but vs Z and vs P, I would rather have extra upgrades than infestors. You attack with your roach hydra +1 + 0, I answer with my roach hydra with +2+2. Those few infestors you got - I pretty much ignore and overpower. I fungal growth your army, you force field and split my army. The split is the problem with force fields, not forcing an engagement. Fungal growth don't split up a protosss army sadly. I could have 40 roaches and 4 infestors, or 64 roaches. Same gas cost. It's hard for me to say that the infestors are worth it against protoss. I've found infestors useful to stop harass. But, in the end, it seems it just force a lot of tanks, and I am overpowered later on. Especially if my infestors are sniped. So ... I have concluded that I am not good enough to use them right, it's too hard, and therefore, I would rather focus on doing other things (like getting more stuff), which means I am more likely to win. At my skill level. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On February 01 2011 14:02 eth3n wrote: not just mutas my friend, roach/hydra/infestor v roach/hydra/infestor zvz leads to epic battles of chicken and tactical decisionmaking My experience would be that if you go roach hydra infestor, I will kill you off with my "nothing but roach army with better upgrades" when I max at +2+2 and you are well below maxed. I guess that could be wrong if your micro is superior, but it seems to hold true in my experience. | ||
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
The unit itself is very fat, slow and vulnerable unlike other races' casters. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On February 01 2011 14:09 aebriol wrote: My experience would be that if you go roach hydra infestor, I will kill you off with my "nothing but roach army with better upgrades" when I max at +2+2 and you are well below maxed. I guess that could be wrong if your micro is superior, but it seems to hold true in my experience. well maybe you are playing a lot of zvz that doesn't get to this point (most of my games end at ling/roach, so I would understand), or I really don't know. this is what happens every time when its roach/hydra/infestor vs pure roach, your choices are (1) split your army to engage mine (i seriously suggest not doing this, you can FG a suprisingly large number of roaches with even 1 cast) or (2) eat the damage and keep your guys together, my hydras enjoy substantial range advantage. Although I love roaches (and love winning the upgrade war which is so crucial in zvz) to death its pretty hard to win with plain roaches vs roach/hydra/infestor. Not trying to be the "MY INFESTORS DO THIS AND THEN YOU DO THIS AND THEN I DO THIS" guy, but thats basically all that can happen unless I fuck up FGs against an incredibly large and homogeneous target, its far more fun when both sides have gone roach/hydra/infestor tho ;p you should play around with FG'n roaches in the unit tester, you might be suprised >:D | ||
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Drae
70 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:04 emazzuca wrote: ... During this GSL and the last few really, ... I think a more accurate title would be "Why aren't Zerg pros using infestors any more? Infestor play was fairly common in 1.1 as I recall. But since 1.2, and the last two seasons of the GSL, the metagame has developed and shown the weaknesses of Infestor play, which is why they are much less used. Specifically, the timing windows in ZvT and ZvP have tightened considerably since 1.1 and Zerg now cant afford to be waiting for Infestors to arrive. Zerg must be able to deal with very brutal timing pushes in the early mid game. Bio tank pushes. Various nasty protoss builds. Zerg builds need to be very tight in order to survive these pushes. Infestors are a late mid-game unit. Getting a pit, pathogen glands and just 2 infestors costs 550 gas and 135 seconds build time. They simply do not arrive in time for you to be able to use them to hold off an early mid-game push. Even if you did some infestor rush build and got them out in time, you are unlikely to have the unit composition to hold off what is left of the push after the 2 FGs (ie a lot). I think in ZvT late mid game and late game you can build a few at your leisure and use them as support units. I think in ZvP you cant build them in mid game at all as you cant delay Hive tech. In late game ZvP you could build a few if you want, but at that stage you have either won the game or lost it, so its irrelevant. Other criticisms in the thread are valid to some extent. Their size / pathing is clumsy and limits their use in large armies. NP is not worth it, if you are trying to neutralize something specific (ie thors) you are probably better off using alternative means. They are pretty fragile. IT is an average spell. Currently their use is limited to ZvZ and perhaps to counter flawed builds (mass rine rush etc). | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Infestors are a late mid-game unit. Getting a pit, pathogen glands and just 2 infestors costs 550 gas and 135 seconds build time. They simply do not arrive in time for you to be able to use them to hold off an early mid-game push. Even if you did some infestor rush build and got them out in time, you are unlikely to have the unit composition to hold off what is left of the push after the 2 FGs (ie a lot). They don't take any longer than mutas to get honestly. I basically think you can make any muta build an infestor build pretty easy by simple substitution and the timings would be very similar. The gameplay would be drastically different, and you can grab a hive earlier, but timing wise they are very close. I don't really know what they could be for against Toss. I suppose if combined with ultras they'd work well. But the Neural Parasite options aren't the greatest. Colossus are unlikely range-wise, immortals are not common in the matchup. Mothership-grab would be epic. Certainly you can use fungal growth to punish some Air Builds I suppose... | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On February 01 2011 14:19 eth3n wrote: [this is what happens every time when its roach/hydra/infestor vs pure roach, your choices are (1) split your army to engage mine (i seriously suggest not doing this, you can FG a suprisingly large number of roaches with even 1 cast) or (2) eat the damage and keep your guys together, my hydras enjoy substantial range advantage. Although I love roaches (and love winning the upgrade war which is so crucial in zvz) to death its pretty hard to win with plain roaches vs roach/hydra/infestor. Not trying to be the "MY INFESTORS DO THIS AND THEN YOU DO THIS AND THEN I DO THIS" guy, but thats basically all that can happen unless I fuck up FGs against an incredibly large and homogeneous target, its far more fun when both sides have gone roach/hydra/infestor tho ;p you should play around with FG'n roaches in the unit tester, you might be suprised >:D I am pretty low masters league (2500? eu), so you might be the better player. What I do is ... the moment I start up the last roaches to hit 200, I have my +2+2. I rally my hatcheries to one of the roaches in the back, keep my entire army together, and attack. When I reach your bases, I make sure to get in close position (ie, not attack at 4 range, but move the armies into each other as best I can. While continuing to pump roaches whenever my supply drop as far as I can. My experience is that, you will land 4-5 fungals, I will break through the roach wall pretty quick and start killing hydras too fast and your inferior (in numbers!) army will crumble. Now, at higher levels, this probably doesn't work as well. And you would be correct in that I don't reach this point too often and many games end up with either side being heavily favored earlier in the game. | ||
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