EPTI think that's pretty much it. If you're getting infestors, it means you're not getting mutas and you're losing map control.
[ D ] - Why aren't Zerg pros using Infestors? - Page 9
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ChThoniC
United States536 Posts
I think that's pretty much it. If you're getting infestors, it means you're not getting mutas and you're losing map control. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 07:33 kerpal wrote: people are looking at this wrong. infestors aren't a viable option vs marine tank (as far as i see) cause zerg play vs that is so fragile, tanks have too much range for FG to get thrown on the marines. bane-muta-infestor doesn't really work because 200 gas per infestor plus 150 for the upgrade.. lategame infestors are great.. with ultras to trap bio or with broods to kill vikings. there's plenty of great uses for infestors, but they're not the solution to losing to marine tank. if they are keeping their tanks and marines in the exact same spot (the only way you can keep the marines from getting fungalled by infestors) then mutalisks would also not work in that situation. and infestors are 100/150 not 100/200. people who don't even know how much they cost shouldn't talk about them not being useful. On February 02 2011 07:56 ChThoniC wrote: They're a defensive unit, and Zerg can't win without denying expansions. I think that's pretty much it. If you're getting infestors, it means you're not getting mutas and you're losing map control. This conclusion is also decidedly wrong. I deny expos with zerglings, creep, and mutas if i need them, and i still open infestor, your mutas arrive on 3 base instead of 2 base if you choose to go muta, but they are not that delayed. infestors allow you much much more map control. if you are defending with infestors, the rest of your army can be out doing stuff, and then come back to kill the fungal'd army when they try to attack. | ||
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ChThoniC
United States536 Posts
For example, against a blue flame hellion build, mutas end the pressure and allow you to put pressure back immidiately. Infestors help deflect the pressure, but you can't put pressure back on blue flame hellions with just zerglings, meaning a Terran is free to take their third quickly. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 08:38 ChThoniC wrote: When you're going for an infestor build, you are pinned back by opponent's pressure more than a mutalisk build. For example, against a blue flame hellion build, mutas end the pressure and allow you to put pressure back immidiately. Infestors help deflect the pressure, but you can't put pressure back on blue flame hellions with just zerglings, meaning a Terran is free to take their third quickly. if you fungal blue flame hellions all you need are 3 groups of 6 lings to kill 4 hellions. since once surrounded they only hit 1 or 2 lings at a time.and if you have 2-3 infestors you can just fungal them to death. alternately fungal + queen works or fungal + spine. counter attack with lings and you can always do counter bane busts on hellion builds, it's super strong since they invest so much in the hellion expand and pressure they are vulnerable to counter busting. which even if you only take out reactors, and depots puts them so far behind that they can't even keep their natural, mutalisk play can't do that. Mutalisks: either protect harrassment or harrass infestors: protect harrassment WHILE allowing harrass at the same time. | ||
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
On February 02 2011 06:09 Mephs wrote: Pros use infestors all the time. Not in the last GSL they didn't. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
And what is it with the mineral cost? At 100/150 I think it's a bit overpriced... compare to the 50/150 HT for example, which also can be warped in instantly (making the amulet upgrade a lot more useful than the Pathogen Glands upgrade).. Typical stuff that needs to be tweaked.. too bad we won't see any of that in 1.3.. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
Infestors appear better than they actually are in the eyes of Blizzard. This unit had so much potential but it is so freaking expensive it's not often worth getting considering how valuable the gas for a) the unit and b) it's upgrades are when compared with having a bigger army. I love Infestors and try to use them whenever I can. I just got into Master League recently and while I try to use Infestors I'm finding more often that I cannot justify the tech path vs. the better players. Good players are great at avoiding fungals, or they just macro through it. EMP, while rare, is an option I've faced, as is just outright blasting the Infestor (3 shots from a marauder, right?) another extremely easy counter. Let's also not forget how easy they are to counter via anything with half decent range, since Infestors have paltry range themselves. This brings me to my biggest point of contention with Blizzard's assessment of Infestors - the NP nerf from ages ago. Why that skill has a timer is beyond me. There are reams of examples where NP is a) not very strong b) a resource sink or c) easily countered. I just don't get why it was deemed so strong. You can usually kill off the NP before the unit under it's control actually does any serious damage. The NP range is so short that the Infestor casting it is usually in jeopardy. Infestors have so much potential but they're just not as strong as Blizzard thinks they are. Mutas are far more versatile. Oh, and I should add - IT is a gimmick. Such a joke. | ||
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Ridiculisk
Australia191 Posts
The biggest weakness to infestor play is heavy siege tank play, it all depends on how many tanks, but this isn't always a bad thing because it further reduces the already slow terran army, and as long as you are careful you can still mow through the siege line when you get ultras out. I find infestors make it much easier to get to that point, and even be ahead. Actually I saw some really clever play against Siege tanks once with Infestors. The Terran was trying to take the gold expo, and had a wall of 6 - 7 Sieged ST's infront of the CC. He didn't have any detection though...except for scan. Anywho, Zerg attacks and withdraws from the ST line, realising they can't get past that many ST's. Then the Zerg sends his burrowed Infestors up fairly close to the ST's and begins to spawn a singular infested terran right next to each ST. Obviously the other ST's all fire on the egg thingy, and the splash damage destroys the ST...was absolutly amazing to watch. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 09:29 Mjolnir wrote: Infestors appear better than they actually are in the eyes of Blizzard. This unit had so much potential but it is so freaking expensive it's not often worth getting considering how valuable the gas for a) the unit and b) it's upgrades are when compared with having a bigger army. The gas cost is mitigatd by the quicker third and easily defended 4th and 5th providing much more gas than mutalisk builds. I love Infestors and try to use them whenever I can. I just got into Master League recently and while I try to use Infestors I'm finding more often that I cannot justify the tech path vs. the better players. Good players are great at avoiding fungals or they just macro through it. how exactly do you macro through fungal, i know you mean replacing the army that you killed, but it doesn't make sense, in that regard you can macro through everything but all ins. since yeah you can replace the army, but now you know exactly when the next attack is possible to come ect. EMP, while rare, is an option I've faced yeah EMP is good, and this is why you need good fungal control and not clump them so badly, also this is where their size comes in handy as is just outright blasting the Infestor (3 shots from a marauder, right?) another extremely easy counter. 4 shots with no upgrades, and assuming you are unable to burrow fungal or put any units in the way of the marauder and the infestor Let's also not forget how easy they are to counter via anything with half decent range, since Infestors have paltry range themselves. fungal has range 9, meaning with the size of the AOe they can fungal anything at about 10.5 rangish, longer than any other unit except sieged tanks, which you can maneuver to fungal them while only taking a single tank shot.This brings me to my biggest point of contention with Blizzard's assessment of Infestors - the NP nerf from ages ago. Why that skill has a timer is beyond me. There are reams of examples where NP is a) not very strong b) a resource sink or c) easily countered. I just don't get why it was deemed so strong. You can usually kill off the NP before the unit under it's control actually does any serious damage. The NP range is so short that the Infestor casting it is usually in jeopardy. Infestors have so much potential but they're just not as strong as Blizzard thinks they are. Mutas are far more versatile. Oh, and I should add - IT is a gimmick. Such a joke. depends on how you use it, if you are using ITs as defense against air or cliff drops or as tank killers or as boosted DPS to your army they are not a joke, if you are using them as harrassment vs min lines or as your army they are pretty gimmicky. | ||
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
Got any new, fresh replays?  I'm pretty sold on the idea that the infestor isn't as bad as it is generally perceived and would love to see them put to good use. (to give me some ideas of how to use them better) | ||
Ten Tron
United States48 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 10:00 Malminos wrote: PrinceXizor, i havent checked your thread for your infestor build recently, but do u have any recent replay packs of you using them? I remember i watched all of your replays from the pack several months back;when you first kicked off that other thread about fast infestors; but i'm sure you've gotten more fancy with your infestor use since then. Got any new, fresh replays? I'm pretty sold on the idea that the infestor isn't as bad as it is generally perceived and would love to see them put to good use. (to give me some ideas of how to use them better)been a while tbh i'm shaking off alot of rust, pretty much my infestor play is similar but my timings out of it are better. also been trying out overlord drop as a way to position infestors on cliffs like lost temple ect to harrass any passing armies. but it seems only good once every few games. so I need to learn the situations it's useful with. I'll have new replays once i get back into my solid practice routine. i'm down to one of two games a day, from my 4-6 hours of practice a day. | ||
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Evilruler
Brazil116 Posts
Introductions apart, my questions in a order that are likely to help ppl who'd like to use them but don't know even how much they cost (me 5 minutes ago. They cost 100/150 from what I've heard btw) -My questions. (What I've catched reading this thread and my comments) -When to get em? (Midgame as defense, lategame usually ultras/brood are more wort) -How to get em? (Build a infestor pit, lol. I mean, are they usefull without the upgrades? If not which one I get first? Burrow? Pathogen Glans? And about how many of them for what ou intend on doing with em? -What to do with them? (NOT harass mineral line, defend from air, delay pushes, lock infantry) -How to micro them? (Get better noob is what I expect... But a hotkey for them would be nice since from the times I used them I learned that putting em with your army doesn't work very well...) -Can I open T2 with them? (A way to force myself to use them. Seems Prince Xizor has a build in these lines, I'll check it out) Thanks in advance. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On February 02 2011 09:51 PrinceXizor wrote: The gas cost is mitigatd by the quicker third and easily defended 4th and 5th providing much more gas than mutalisk builds. I don't really know you can avoid an instant spell cast, if you mean spreading to deal with them, then they already weaken their army vs zerg melee (and mutas) how exactly do you macro through fungal, i know you mean replacing the army that you killed, but it doesn't make sense, in that regard you can macro through everything but all ins. since yeah you can replace the army, but now you know exactly when the next attack is possible to come ect. yeah EMP is good, and this is why you need good fungal control and not clump them so badly, also this is where their size comes in handy 4 shots with no upgrades, and assuming you are unable to burrow fungal or put any units in the way of the marauder and the infestor fungal has range 9, meaning with the size of the AOe they can fungal anything at about 10.5 rangish, longer than any other unit except sieged tanks, which you can maneuver to fungal them while only taking a single tank shot. any situation you need NP in you can find a use for, but those situations are 1/1000. NP is pretty bad. i only get it for show or for BCs. mutas are not that versatile, only fast. mutalisks require massive investments to become worthwhile in a game, 4 mutalisks is nothing, 8 mutalisks is annoying, 16+ mutalisks becomes a threat. 2 infestors can change a game, 4 infestors can win it, 8 infestors makes you harrassment proof entirely. depends on how you use it, if you are using ITs as defense against air or cliff drops or as tank killers or as boosted DPS to your army they are not a joke, if you are using them as harrassment vs min lines or as your army they are pretty gimmicky. I've rarely had an issue with taking someone's expos after they've teched infestor and try to run the map with Infestors as defense. I don't have to use muta exclusively and I have had lots of success just massing units to overrun their extended armies. A handful of infestors spread out don't prevent a hard hit to an expo. Good players avoid the fungals by baiting it - hit and run, constantly changing direction, or hitting where even if the fungal catches you, they don't have enough army around to annihilate your army. When I mention "macro through it" I meant they eat the 38 dmg from the fungals and just power through with a bigger army. With regard to range I was referring to NP, which is shit. I think mutas are versatile because they're fast and offer defence/offence on multiple fields of play without the concern for energy and upgrades. I also think Infestors are as easy to counter as mutas. I have never had an issue vs. ITs, if someone is trying to snipe tanks, one scan kills their Infestors. Harassing min lines, not an issue and easily prevented imo. Of course I just hit Master League and I'm sure I'm going to face tougher competition (as stated). | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
150 gas for every single infestor. Its also a high priority target, fat and easily targetable, low health, and has no armor. Obviously it has alot of amazing uses, but it just cuts into muta/bling/upgrade gas money waaay too much. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 11:08 Smigi wrote: Their just too gas heavy. 150 gas for every single infestor. Its also a high priority target, fat and easily targetable, low health, and has no armor. Obviously it has alot of amazing uses, but it just cuts into muta/bling/upgrade gas money waaay too much. trust me when i say muta ling bane won't last as standard as it's not economy centric enough of a midgame for big maps | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 02 2011 12:01 PrinceXizor wrote: trust me when i say muta ling bane won't last as standard as it's not economy centric enough of a midgame for big maps you really think muta/ling/baneling is going to die as a strategy? If anything on bigger maps it'll be stronger not weaker (flanking/mobility). I would love to hear your reasoning on how its not economy centric enough also. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 12:14 blade55555 wrote: you really think muta/ling/baneling is going to die as a strategy? If anything on bigger maps it'll be stronger not weaker (flanking/mobility). I would love to hear your reasoning on how its not economy centric enough also. mobility is good yes, but mutalisks serve two functions that require them to be at 3 places at once, this is possible on smaller maps due to their speed. but on large maps mutalisks will have a tough time, finding and killing tanks, defending from drops and harrass, harrassing oppoenents base at the same time. besides that, it's terribly inefficient larva and mineral wise. both of those things contribute greatly to economy, mineral surpluses go to expos and extra larva become drones. the average expansion is much slower than infestor strats, and muta ling bane tend to have issues keeping their upgrades going with the lack of gas. and before people say: but infestors cost more gas than mutas. if you control the infestors right you never end up makiing more than 10, which is 15 mutas of gas, but 10 mutas of larva. and 10 mutas of minerals. most people going mutaling bane get alot more mutas than 15, unless the mutas are shut down completely, in which case they blew 300/300 on a useless tech pattern (note spire and +1 upgrade). where the infestationn pit + glands, even if by some godlike micro the infestors become useless, thats only 150/150 in a useless tech pattern (note glands) since the pit helps with hive it is not useless even without infestors. little things like that add up in games especially back and forth macro games, that i feel ling muta bane, if it happens is only a minor segment of the game, and will be replaced beforehand by infestors, and after by infestor muta. IE open infestor transition to muta ling bane (with leftover infestors) and then make more infestors and use high muta counts + high infestor counts to control the game. | ||
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