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On February 01 2011 14:27 Drae wrote:
Infestors are a late mid-game unit. Getting a pit, pathogen glands and just 2 infestors costs 550 gas and 135 seconds build time. They simply do not arrive in time for you to be able to use them to hold off an early mid-game push. Even if you did some infestor rush build and got them out in time, you are unlikely to have the unit composition to hold off what is left of the push after the 2 FGs (ie a lot).
Thisis wrong. as 50pit + 30pathogen +50 when you start infestors = 130 not 135. which is 3 seconds faster than mutalisks. and a spire + 4 mutalisks (133 build time and 600 gas) is even more ineffective to hold of an early mid game push. the fact is they do well, you just have to use them well, abuse AI, and time it well. and i guess what i do is a "infestor rush build" where i get infestors at the 5:45 mark ish. which is roughly the same time as an early mid game push. and if you are properly pooling larva you should definitely have enough lings/ect to fend off any attack. before.
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On February 01 2011 14:36 aebriol wrote:
I am pretty low masters league (2500? eu), so you might be the better player.
What I do is ... the moment I start up the last roaches to hit 200, I have my +2+2. I rally my hatcheries to one of the roaches in the back, keep my entire army together, and attack. When I reach your bases, I make sure to get in close position (ie, not attack at 4 range, but move the armies into each other as best I can. While continuing to pump roaches whenever my supply drop as far as I can.
My experience is that, you will land 4-5 fungals, I will break through the roach wall pretty quick and start killing hydras too fast and your inferior (in numbers!) army will crumble.
Now, at higher levels, this probably doesn't work as well. And you would be correct in that I don't reach this point too often and many games end up with either side being heavily favored earlier in the game.
what time in the game is this because usually when i see mass mass roach i get 4 infestors and stuff to defend but i pretty much panic button banes and blow a huge hole in your army with my remaining gas, and then the ling pumps clean it up. and yeah banes suck vs roaches, but 20-40 banes vs 50 roaches = 20 hurt roaches vs 60-70 food of zergling infestor. Oh and i go hydra bane infestor instead of hydra roach infestor, since vs hydra roach infestor you use lings to snipe infestors, then circle with banes and kill the hydras, and then fungal'd roaches vs long ranged hydras tend to be one sided. but my strategy is also a bit unorthadox.
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On February 01 2011 14:35 DoubleReed wrote:They don't take any longer than mutas to get honestly. I basically think you can make any muta build an infestor build pretty easy by simple substitution and the timings would be very similar. The gameplay would be drastically different, and you can grab a hive earlier, but timing wise they are very close.
You dont hold an early mid game timing push (z or p) with mutas.
You need speed banes for for ZvT mostly these days. For ZvP its mostly roach / hydra, but if you were to go ling muta, you would be holding an early mid game push with a LOT of lings and spines.
On February 01 2011 14:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Thisis wrong. as 50pit + 30pathogen +50 when you start infestors = 130 not 135. which is 3 seconds faster than mutalisks. and a spire + 4 mutalisks (133 build time and 600 gas) is even more ineffective to hold of an early mid game push. the fact is they do well, you just have to use them well, abuse AI, and time it well. and i guess what i do is a "infestor rush build" where i get infestors at the 5:45 mark ish. which is roughly the same time as an early mid game push. and if you are properly pooling larva you should definitely have enough lings/ect to fend off any attack. before.
See above for mutas.
For timings, you dont really start to build your Infestors at exactly 50 game seconds before pathogen is done. You need a safety net, or you risk your Infestors spwaning before its done. In practice you wait until Pathogen glands is at least 50% done (40 out of 80 game seconds), so its really 140 game games. I said 135 to be generous.
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On February 01 2011 14:41 Drae wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 14:35 DoubleReed wrote:They don't take any longer than mutas to get honestly. I basically think you can make any muta build an infestor build pretty easy by simple substitution and the timings would be very similar. The gameplay would be drastically different, and you can grab a hive earlier, but timing wise they are very close. You dont hold an early mid game timing push (z or p) with mutas. You need speed banes for t, upgraded roach +/- hydra for p.
speed banes are roughly equivilent to infestors in dealing with the timing push. speed banes are 20 gameseconds faster than infestors. and it just takes about 10-16 lings in a minor counter attack to stall that much tbh.
EDIT: to be fair, you need aoe damage to handle those ealry game pushes because of the lack of strength of zerg production at the time. and there are two solutions: the 100% most effective : Speed banes, is also the most costly in larva. where infestors is only more costly in gas (cheaper in minerals). usually i see infestorzergs taking a third shortly after their infestors pop anyway. which 100% mitigates the gas issue. and provides even more production.
On February 01 2011 14:41 Drae wrote:
For timings, you dont really start to build your Infestors at exactly 50 game seconds before pathogen is done. You need a safety net, or you risk your Infestors spwaning before its done. In practice you wait until Pathogen glands is at least 50% done (40 out of 80 game seconds), so its really 140 game games. I said 135 to be generous.
maybe you need that buffer, but for infestorzergs we know our timings very well thank you very much.
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On February 01 2011 14:35 DoubleReed wrote:For timings, you dont really start to build your Infestors at exactly 50 game seconds before pathogen is done. You need a safety net, or you risk your Infestors spwaning before its done. In practice you wait until Pathogen glands is at least 50% done (40 out of 80 game seconds), so its really 140 game games. I said 135 to be generous.
Yes but while you wait for centrifugal you arent naked, you can use banes on creep if your creep spread has been good enough. If you are going Infestors you are literally just praying that they dont attack you until they pop.
On February 01 2011 14:35 DoubleReed wrote:maybe you need that buffer, but for infestorzergs we know our timings very well thank you very much.
Lol.
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They will make their way in. fungal growth is too strong, especially against terran(and dont say "tanks". they often poke at you will small groups of marines. which would be obliterated by fungal. i cant see the zergling baneling muta metagame staying in exactly that way for much longer. 2 infestors are surely more valuable to a fight than like 3 additional mutas to your group of 12 mutas. and the olny lategame transition zerg does at the moment is broodlord. I wouldnt be surprised if they became an integral part of zvt 2 months from now
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On February 01 2011 06:12 emazzuca wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:06 Giwoon wrote:
theyre too gas heavy which means you'll have less mutas and they have 80 hp and are armoured but they have 0 armour so tanks will do 50 dmg. Is this the general opinion of the SC community? that our main caster unit its to expensive and vulnerable to use? Also so huge and easy for your opponent to focus/ avoid.
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On February 01 2011 14:51 Drae wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 14:35 DoubleReed wrote:maybe you need that buffer, but for infestorzergs we know our timings very well thank you very much. Lol.
Your argument on the timing is quite poor and warrants that response. you pretty much argued that stim pushes need to wait until stim finishes before pushing out instead of when they are arriving it finishes. but in zergy terms with unit timings. and if you can't stall a terran army and plan on using infestors you deserve that loss. as thats what infestors are FOR. stalling and manipulating the battle.
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On February 01 2011 14:39 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 14:36 aebriol wrote:
I am pretty low masters league (2500? eu), so you might be the better player.
What I do is ... the moment I start up the last roaches to hit 200, I have my +2+2. I rally my hatcheries to one of the roaches in the back, keep my entire army together, and attack. When I reach your bases, I make sure to get in close position (ie, not attack at 4 range, but move the armies into each other as best I can. While continuing to pump roaches whenever my supply drop as far as I can.
My experience is that, you will land 4-5 fungals, I will break through the roach wall pretty quick and start killing hydras too fast and your inferior (in numbers!) army will crumble.
Now, at higher levels, this probably doesn't work as well. And you would be correct in that I don't reach this point too often and many games end up with either side being heavily favored earlier in the game. what time in the game is this because usually when i see mass mass roach i get 4 infestors and stuff to defend but i pretty much panic button banes and blow a huge hole in your army with my remaining gas, and then the ling pumps clean it up. and yeah banes suck vs roaches, but 20-40 banes vs 50 roaches = 20 hurt roaches vs 60-70 food of zergling infestor. Oh and i go hydra bane infestor instead of hydra roach infestor, since vs hydra roach infestor you use lings to snipe infestors, then circle with banes and kill the hydras, and then fungal'd roaches vs long ranged hydras tend to be one sided. but my strategy is also a bit unorthadox.
Well, that's another thing. I haven't played against that mix, so I wouldn't know how it would turn out. It's vs roach hydra infestors, that quite a few people use, that I've found pure roach to be better. It's just my experience.
And I guess I would have roughly 55-65 roaches when I attack depending on being 2 or 3 bases. So a 110-130 food army.
At what time ... mmm, that depends too much on the early game. It requires both players to go roaches and expand after initial openings (or both fast expand, which doesn't really happen much to me), and neither committing to heavy ling bling attacks.I will see if I can find a replay of it happening.
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On February 01 2011 14:56 aebriol wrote:
Well, that's another thing. I haven't played against that mix, so I wouldn't know how it would turn out. It's vs roach hydra infestors, that quite a few people use, that I've found pure roach to be better. It's just my experience.
And I guess I would have roughly 55-65 roaches when I attack depending on being 2 or 3 bases. So a 110-130 food army.
At what time ... mmm, that depends too much on the early game. It requires both players to go roaches and expand after initial openings (or both fast expand, which doesn't really happen much to me), and neither committing to heavy ling bling attacks.I will see if I can find a replay of it happening.
yeah it's weird, and i never WANT to make the banes, it's always a reaction to just survive the attack. also i tend to upgrade melee and armor rapidly so i'd expect to be close to 2/2 if not at it going for 3/3. since vs roach i often speedily get to ultras as well. my ZvZ is really weird and the timings were 100% based on going up against mutalisks and going into the infestor centric mid game and if i saw roaches i had banes as my last resort strategy.
EDIT: also i open ling bling with +1 armor to counter any ling bling entirely, and vs quick roaches it's +1 attack instead usually involving a quick expand if they do, or vs roaches.
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On February 01 2011 14:53 PrinceXizor wrote:Your argument on the timing is quite poor and warrants that response. you pretty much argued that stim pushes need to wait until stim finishes before pushing out instead of when they are arriving it finishes. but in zergy terms with unit timings. and if you can't stall a terran army and plan on using infestors you deserve that loss. as thats what infestors are FOR. stalling and manipulating the battle.
I am amused because you make no sense.
You are arguing that you can build Infestors within a 1-2 second window and not miss the Pathogen Upgrade. You must be a super saiyan nerd!
As for Stim marines, I have no idea what you are saying. Unlike Infestors, you can make marines, move them around the map while you want for stim to finish. Unlike Pathogen, its not an upgrade you need to wait to spawn for.
Using Infestors to delay Terran pushes is a great tatic. For a late mid game push. For an early mid game push, those tanks and marines are outside your natural while you are waiting for pathogen to finish.
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On February 01 2011 15:02 Drae wrote:
I am amused because you make no sense.
You are arguing that you can build Infestors within a 1-2 second window and not miss the Pathogen Upgrade. You must be a super saiyan nerd!
As for Stim marines, I have no idea what you are saying. Unlike Infestors, you can make marines, move them around the map while you want for stim to finish. Unlike Pathogen, its not an upgrade you need to wait to spawn for.
i can build infestors within 1 second of it hitting 30. i hotkey my infestor pit and incorporate it into my checks with spam/click ect. and i know roughly the size of the bar at 28-30 seconds and typically pause over the pit and once it hits 30 i go 1 s ff. which takes <1 second to do. when you play a strategy that relies on timing, you do what you can to make the timing work. (and the hotkey of my pit becomes my infestor hotkey!)
Stim marines was an analogy because you said that to be safe from a bad situation (infestors with 50 energy, marines caught without stim in a fight) you needed the extra time to be safe. when players used to the strategy know exactly what to get away with.
but yeah i guess i'd be f'd if they had more than 1 or 2 tanks and a bunch of marines outside my base, and i haven't stalled them at all at about 5:45 into the game when pathogen finishes.
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On February 01 2011 15:05 PrinceXizor wrote:
i can build infestors within 1 second of it hitting 30. i hotkey my infestor pit and incorporate it into my checks with spam/click ect. and i know roughly the size of the bar at 28-30 seconds and typically pause over the pit and once it hits 30 i go 1 s ff. which takes <1 second to do. when you play a strategy that relies on timing, you do what you can to make the timing work. (and the hotkey of my pit becomes my infestor hotkey!)
Stim marines was an analogy because you said that to be safe from a bad situation (infestors with 50 energy, marines caught without stim in a fight) you needed the extra time to be safe. when players used to the strategy know exactly what to get away with.
Replay please 
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On February 01 2011 15:01 PrinceXizor wrote:
EDIT: also i open ling bling with +1 armor to counter any ling bling entirely, and vs quick roaches it's +1 attack instead usually involving a quick expand if they do, or vs roaches.
I open roaches, but play defensively usually, as I find it easier to hold off pushes, than making them myself. Unless I go all in of course. But generally, I find that roaches do better defensively than offensively early game, and if I want to be offensive, I am a mass speedling player. At most I will move out 2/3rds of the way over before retreating. I like to scout for spire constantly though, that's pretty much it.
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On February 01 2011 15:08 Drae wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 15:05 PrinceXizor wrote:
i can build infestors within 1 second of it hitting 30. i hotkey my infestor pit and incorporate it into my checks with spam/click ect. and i know roughly the size of the bar at 28-30 seconds and typically pause over the pit and once it hits 30 i go 1 s ff. which takes <1 second to do. when you play a strategy that relies on timing, you do what you can to make the timing work. (and the hotkey of my pit becomes my infestor hotkey!)
Stim marines was an analogy because you said that to be safe from a bad situation (infestors with 50 energy, marines caught without stim in a fight) you needed the extra time to be safe. when players used to the strategy know exactly what to get away with. Replay please
i have old ones (like pre 1.1 and 1.2) where i don't hotkey my infestor pit but get it within 2 seconds. if you want. can also send replays tomorrow and PM you the replays. tonight i'm studying for exams.
On February 01 2011 15:12 aebriol wrote:
I open roaches, but play defensively usually, as I find it easier to hold off pushes, than making them myself. Unless I go all in of course. But generally, I find that roaches do better defensively than offensively early game, and if I want to be offensive, I am a mass speedling player. At most I will move out 2/3rds of the way over before retreating. I like to scout for spire constantly though, that's pretty much it.
Yeah i'm pretty much defensive with my ling bane as well. pretty much use +2/3 cracklings in the mid/late game to control opponents expos, you have to have a pretty sizable army at each base to defend them, which cuts down alot on the attacks on you, and allow you to expand with your better mobility (only thing more mobile is muta, which infestors wreck)
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I just finished the entirety of the latest GSL and was amazed by the lack of infestors as well.
I hear people saying they'll just roflstomp an infestor user, that fungal growth does little to no damage compared to others, that locking a person down to slow their push as day[9] says "aint nuttin to a boss".
In this last GSL i can't count how many banelings i saw that were completely wasted because of a player microing away from infestors. Games were lost because of terran backpedaling off creep and kiting massive control groups of banelings. I hear people complain about infestors cost but i saw so much money thrown away to people microing away from banelings, i feel like if some of those players had infestors to lock down armies gosu style, that money wasted on banelings would have turned into money well spent
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On February 01 2011 15:14 Malminos wrote:
I just finished the entirety of the latest GSL and was amazed by the lack of infestors as well.
I hear people saying they'll just roflstomp an infestor user, that fungal growth does little to no damage compared to others, that locking a person down to slow their push as day[9] says "aint nuttin to a boss".
In this last GSL i can't count how many banelings i saw that were completely wasted because of a player microing away from infestors. Games were lost because of terran backpedaling off creep and kiting massive control groups of banelings. I hear people complain about infestors cost but i saw so much money thrown away to people microing away from banelings, i feel like if some of those players had infestors to lock down armies gosu style, that money wasted on banelings would have turned into money well spent
one of the issues is that big tank number slow push in the late mid game that kinda hurts infestor play alot, which is countered by larger maps (shakuras and bigger), the other is lack of play of infestors, which hurts the ability to play infestors, because the transition timings aren't developed well, for instance my ultra transition hits anywhere from 5 minutes after infestors to 15, entirely on my own ability to control the situation, which is bad, and needs to be more standardized. the only positive timing infestorzergs have is that third base around 6-6:30 into the game.
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I would be happy if NP was more useful. The people would have 2 reasons to get infestors
Personally I would like NP to not require research and be cast while burrowed.
Would make them worth the cost, plus NP is so awesome to see.
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It's hard to believe a spell like fungal growth won't be used in the long run. Perhaps 2 years from now we'll be looking back on this with comments like "Wow, people really didn't use infestors??"
Didn't Fruitdealer use infestors in his games vs Rainbow in GSL 1. I think I remember him having infestors at his expansions to deal with drops on Delta Quadrant. I don't really remember much use of it outside of that though.. Maybe if TLO returns..
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On February 01 2011 15:24 Befree wrote:
It's hard to believe a spell like fungal growth won't be used in the long run. Perhaps 2 years from now we'll be looking back on this with comments like "Wow, people really didn't use infestors??"
Didn't Fruitdealer use infestors in his games vs Rainbow in GSL 1. I think I remember him having infestors at his expansions to deal with drops on Delta Quadrant. I don't really remember much use of it outside of that though.. Maybe if TLO returns..
Fruitdealer had four parts to his game season 1
Infestorplay
Mutaplay
baneling Drops
Ultras
and he varied the order of the first three depending on situation. and the third he used to end any big pushes. not sure why he strayed from everything but baneling drops, that should be save dfor +2/+3 drop harrassment and not vs armies.
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EPT
