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On February 01 2011 09:34 HornSnHaloS wrote:
There seems to be a misconception that you need to produce infestors mutalisks and banelings all at the same time.
An infestor opening will allow you to get them out very fast, hold off early bio pushes and build energy.
You get your 3 and 4 geysers faster, blast out 4 infesters and have a healthy group of zerglings, and you're safe against bio pushes.
When I play this style, once I get the initial infesters out, I feel very safe to drone, take a third and go straight to mutalisks.
Keep in mind this is against bio openings, if they Have any tanks on the earlier side, you'll be hard pressed to fend it off before a reasonable amount of mutalisks comes out.
You might find it works a little better to do the opposite. Go Mutalisk first: attack, harass and keep them in their base until they make static defense, which gives you time to make drones and get infestors up. In my experience this works better. However both make sense in their own way I suppose.
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EGStrifeCro uses them almost exclusively in the ZvT match up until he gets 3 bases up -- then transitions to Mutas. I think that is a trend we might see develop in the future. It is very powerful and just feels "safer" to me.
I've used it to great effect at my level (2600 masters). It's almost like Ts are in auto-pilot vs Z and simply expect mutas; their decision making suffers because of (what appears to be) the shock of infestor use.
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As a terran player, infestors dont give too much trouble to me. Just gotta be a bit more careful with marines, and take solace in the fact that he will have many less mutas/blings because of them. The bad part is if they manage to catch you unsieged with fungals - your army will be in a horrible position.
Its not that they are a bad unit, its just the alternatives are slightly better with the current strategies.
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Dimaga uses them. Once pros start using them the ladder sheep will. They are good.
![[image loading]](http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt311/Knightfallspics/Screenshot2010-08-3114_58_57.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt311/Knightfallspics/Screenshot2010-08-3114_59_45.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt311/Knightfallspics/Screenshot2010-08-3115_01_20.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt311/Knightfallspics/Screenshot2010-08-3115_01_43.jpg)
If I had microed better I woulda not lost a single infestor.
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On February 01 2011 09:38 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 09:34 HornSnHaloS wrote:
There seems to be a misconception that you need to produce infestors mutalisks and banelings all at the same time.
An infestor opening will allow you to get them out very fast, hold off early bio pushes and build energy.
You get your 3 and 4 geysers faster, blast out 4 infesters and have a healthy group of zerglings, and you're safe against bio pushes.
When I play this style, once I get the initial infesters out, I feel very safe to drone, take a third and go straight to mutalisks.
Keep in mind this is against bio openings, if they Have any tanks on the earlier side, you'll be hard pressed to fend it off before a reasonable amount of mutalisks comes out. You might find it works a little better to do the opposite. Go Mutalisk first: attack, harass and keep them in their base until they make static defense, which gives you time to make drones and get infestors up. In my experience this works better. However both make sense in their own way I suppose.
Neither is incorrect, they're different responses, for instance vs faster tanks the Mutalisk opening will be safer due to immobility and it just takes away from the infesters.
However in pure bio opening to go mutalisks you have to build a lot more lings and banelings to e safe, which could be drones.
So it's all responsive, how we all should be playing.
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I just want to mention that leenock likes using infestors a lot, it worked great in the past.
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On February 01 2011 09:52 HornSnHaloS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 09:38 DoubleReed wrote:On February 01 2011 09:34 HornSnHaloS wrote:
There seems to be a misconception that you need to produce infestors mutalisks and banelings all at the same time.
An infestor opening will allow you to get them out very fast, hold off early bio pushes and build energy.
You get your 3 and 4 geysers faster, blast out 4 infesters and have a healthy group of zerglings, and you're safe against bio pushes.
When I play this style, once I get the initial infesters out, I feel very safe to drone, take a third and go straight to mutalisks.
Keep in mind this is against bio openings, if they Have any tanks on the earlier side, you'll be hard pressed to fend it off before a reasonable amount of mutalisks comes out. You might find it works a little better to do the opposite. Go Mutalisk first: attack, harass and keep them in their base until they make static defense, which gives you time to make drones and get infestors up. In my experience this works better. However both make sense in their own way I suppose. Neither is incorrect, they're different responses, for instance vs faster tanks the Mutalisk opening will be safer due to immobility and it just takes away from the infesters. However in pure bio opening to go mutalisks you have to build a lot more lings and banelings to e safe, which could be drones. So it's all responsive, how we all should be playing.
Oh ok. That makes sense. The More You Know!!
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Banelings do the same thing as the infestor against marines but more expensive but faster/deadlier. Infestor is the natural transition from roach imo though as i find banelings cost heavy making it take longer to tech.
When i play ZvT i always FE into roaches and lair and then get infestors.
I take my 3rd early if i can defend with just roaches but if i can only defend instead of push out i get infestors and then FG the marines but if mech i get neural parasite upgrade first instead of + energy and get infestors earlier to have the power to push.
But if i feel too much pressure i just get banelings nest and go roach/baneling.
Ultras arent really my favorite unit against marauders and tanks and banshees so i get a spire and make mutas off 3 Bases and harass the terran while getting hive and then greater spire.
Four base broodlords comes then.
I only attack when i scout that he is trying to take his 3rd until then im macroing drones until the 2 base push of death.
Mutas do better against vikings imo.
Im stoned.
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Do you zergies have the feeling that a slight reduction in infestor gas cost would open up new ways to play zerg, and in a certain way "fix" the problems that your race commonly face?
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Recently ive been trying to add infestors into my play against terrans, early on simply put i can not afford infestors until im on 3+ base and i already have 18+ mutas and my upgrades going, the gas cost is just too much to get them earlier, the few times i tried to get them earlier i had to sacrifice upgrades, mutalisks and banelings which made the game much harder than it should have been, but when you get to the late game when you can afford them, they are amazing to add on.
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Didn't use them at all a while ago. Now I've recently started playing SC2 again after 2 months without and I've been trying to get rid of bad habits and such. So, I decided it would be a nice opportunity to start using them, and I found out that they're amazing. Other than in ZvZ, I don't feel like they're worth the gas in the mid-game, as mutas are more important for map control, imo. But, they're amazing in the late-game. Infestors with ultras ZvT is amazing, and ZvP I make a couple of broodlords so they make blink stalkers, then go hydra-infestor.
Also, they're the cutest unit in the game. That's a good enough excuse to use them.
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People dont make a lot of infestors early on, mostly because infestors dont help them at all with the strategy that they are trying to do.
In the standard strategy of muta-ling-bling, the mid-game goal is to harrass with mutas, allowing you to delay his push, prevent his third, stop harrassment, get your third up, and get an economic advantage. That is the goal, and mutas are great at that. Infestors, however, are not so great at that.
Thats why you dont see many infestors mixed in with the classic lin-bling-muta combo. Because they dont actually help you form a mobile army that can counter attack and harrass while you get an economic advantage. They are just not good at that.
What are they good at? Well, they are great against units with low amounts of life, such as zerglings, banelings, and marines, and they are great against very fast units that want to abuse mobility, such as zerglings, mutas, banshees, phoenixes, void rays, heliions, and so on.
If you face for example a protoss player going for a big deathball, with some void rays, colossi, gateway units, and immortals, why then would you get infestors? They are great at dealing with highly mobile forces, which your opponent's army isnt, and they are great at dealing with units that have very low amounts of health, which also isnt the case. Thus, they wouldnt be good there.
On the other hand, if the protoss gets lots of void rays, and phoenixes to harrass with those mobile units a lot, then infestors suddenly seem like a great choice, because you can just lock him down, stop the mobility, and then it helps you a lot.
Same thing against terran. If he is going for something like lots of marines, and medivacs, then infestors will be great. Or lots of hellions. Or banshees. But if instead the terran isnt harrassing a lot, but building a big army with lots of slow, immobile high health units, like tanks, thors, marauders, and so on, then suddenly infestors are a terrible choice.
If you are fighting harrassment from very mobile units, and trying to fend them off with slower units, then as zerg, infestors are great. But if you are dealing with a big doompush, then infestors are not really the units you want.
It depends entirely on your strategy compared to the opponent's strategy, and what your respective roles are. If you were to be making something like broodlord-hydra in the midgame, then suddenly, you would be the one with the really slow deathball, and your opponent would be the one forced to use mobile forces to harass. In that case, infestors would be the perfect unit to help.
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I think it's because they are not comfortable with their use yet. Whenever we see them in tournament games used by pros they are always devestating and effective but getting to that point is usually quite hard.
Give it another month or so of practice and I think they will become a staple of the Z army in all matchups. It's like ravens right now for terran. Just not comfortable enough to start using them to their advantage. Luckily protoss casters are useful in all situations so they get lots of use.
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Getting infestors means you have to cut down on some other gas heavy unit. Usually, you'll be sacraficing mutas to get infestors, either by skipping mutas entirely or by only getting a few, and then getting delayed infestors. Infestors make you much stronger against bio compositions, but they don't allow you to put nearly as much pressure on your opponent as mutas do. Everyone's said this quite a bit already.
That said, with so many terrans going so heavy into marines, infestors may see a bit of a resurgance. Infestors combined with drop tech could create a situation where you're able to counter attack after crushing an early-mid push.
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I look forward to the day when infestors becomes much more commonplace in the SC2 scene. It gives me another excuse to use ghosts :D
EMPed infestors bring tears of joy to my eyes.
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This is weird i was actually thinking of why I don't see them used much. And I thought maybe if they had consume ability they will be very much worth it. Just think about after their energy is gone they are basically walking targets with their overgrown self. While high templars can morph and ghosts still can attack without energy.
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United States7483 Posts
I feel that infested terrans are very underused. In any fight where the enemy doesn't have absurd amounts of splash damage, they can be very very strong. It's albeit rare, but there are times when they could be brought out. If you're going roach hydra, your upgrades apply to the infested terrans also, and they do pretty good damage (8 per shot I believe). You can kill command centers and entire worker lines with a couple infestors spamming them in the enemy base, and they can do an amazing job of soaking damage in a battle due to the way the eggs work. Against a terran opponent, it's often hilarious to spawn them on their own units so their tanks kill all their own stuff for you.
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I really love infestors in 2v2. Fungal combined with tanks, colossi, storm, even thors can lead to amazing ownage.
In 1v1 if I get them in the midgame, like most of the people posting, I struggle to use them effectively. I usually end up wishing I had spent the gas on something else.
I do like to get them in late game situations for drop defense, when supply is at a premium and I have to get the pit anyways for hive. A fungal and some infesteds can completely shut down a small drop, especially if I spot it coming with an overlord. Against bigger drops it can still be a difference maker by slowing it down, giving my drones time to escape or my army time to get there and save my tech.
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I'm known for my infestor play from my stream. to this day (since beta) i go 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, lair when pool finishes and queen at nat. and get infestors quickly. The reason it works is that with proper control 1 or 2 infestors can hold off early terran agression (with ling fodder), especially considering that zerg no longer has a blind spot in scouting with the build. (or rather the blind spot is very small) what this ends up doing is allowing you to scout that precious gas-taking timing as well as whether the factory/starport is going up for fact/fact or fact/star/tech or rax/rax/rax ect. Pretty much you get to see their tech path as soon as they are starting it, unlike the majority of zerg builds currently. and more information is just better. EDIT: to clarify super fast lair = fast overlord speed/overseer as well as infestors.
EDIT2:
Also the maps have been too short for it. because of the shorter maps mutalisk can control more of the map than infestors, and as such mutalisks are preferred in midgame. however on large maps (such as shakuras, and the new GSL maps) this will be less the case, as mutalisks cannot protect everything, like infestors can. also the "counter' to the early infestor play is a slow methodical tank push leaving no gaps. this push takes about 40 seconds on steppes of war, and doesn't give a good reaction time for the zerg, but on shakuras, the push takes 100 seconds, enough time to build a spire, and if you include scouting (as you should) you have enough time to halt gas spending, get a spire and pump mutas before they arrive and fend off the tanks with muta infestor (a godly combo vs tank marine if controlled correctly). on the even larger GSL maps this will be even more powerful, especially since the much (MUCH) faster scouting potential prevents any sort of shenanigans.
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On February 01 2011 06:12 emazzuca wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:06 Giwoon wrote:
theyre too gas heavy which means you'll have less mutas and they have 80 hp and are armoured but they have 0 armour so tanks will do 50 dmg. Is this the general opinion of the SC community? that our main caster unit its to expensive and vulnerable to use? even when their best counter (lings, blings, mutas, marines) are being used?
its also my opinion - they are quite pointless if terran goes tanks even when marines would be a great target - especially on gsl level its doubtful that someone would let you fungal the marines and one infestor equals gas of 6 blings
maybe neural parasite on tanks would work but i guess just once
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EPT
