EPTPretty much it's a lot of gas and zergs are always starving for gas for bling to stay alive or muta to harass/pick off tanks
[ D ] - Why aren't Zerg pros using Infestors? - Page 2
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
Pretty much it's a lot of gas and zergs are always starving for gas for bling to stay alive or muta to harass/pick off tanks | ||
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Lepope
France17 Posts
Big and easy to snipe. And their spell range is not that great. If I compare with HT and Ghost, it is far easier to kill an infestor imo. Also I liked a comment from Fruitdealer in the last interview I read on TeamLiquid. Due to the interface, I believe too it is harder to micro and macro at the same time for zerg at the moment. I am sure it will change in the future, but while waiting for everyone to get more used to the game; it is just harder for me when I play zerg to macro and micro at the same time. It is much more intensive for me. If I had more time (meaning less creep tumors, less larva injections, less overlord spreading, less scouting since I have to play very reactionary as zerg) I could micro better my infestor and be more confident with them. For the time being I am forced to see than when I off race, I have a far easier time microing my units. But the game is evolving, we will see... | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
fungal is their best spell, infested terran is pretty cool too but NP is fairly usless in most situations. vs T i can see infestors becoming standard, but again mainly for fungal. NP used to be good vs thors and the like but the NP timer as well as the range allow for tanks to nullify it. | ||
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teh_longinator
Canada725 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
A lot of GSL or other tournament TvZ plays like this :the terran 2 raxes, harass a little, then expand and tech to stim while macroing a marine ball (with 3-4 marauders to tank banelings) then push. This push will hit at the typical timing when the zerg have his first 4-6 mutas (that are useless against this push). The spire takes 100 seconds to build, +33 seconds for the first muta. The pit takes 50 seconds +50 seconds for first infestor. With 2 infestors that you build immediatly after pit instead of spire you'll have 2 fungals ready at the exact usual first muta timing. With 2 infestors + some lings you crush this push, with 6 mutas you'll die most of the time (unless you produce an insane amount of lings). Only one fungal on the marines will prevent them from stiming, and in any case will leave them too weak to handle speedlings. Infestors are safer and allow power droning. I don't say replace mutas by infestors, I just think timing wise infestors are way better than mutas to deal with the first push. After that resume your muta production if you want. They can be used exactly for the same purpose as the 2 or 3 first lurkers in a bw TvZ. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
-longer range (close or slightly less than tank range but again lacking the vision) -longer/shorter stun time based upon balance testing -much less dmg -higher energy cost -bring up the energy upgrade eto match new energy reqs -energy upgrdee time down from 80 to 60s and cheaper on the gas and maybe more mineral heavy, depends on balance effects from previous changes, 200-75? 150-100? The damage of FG while good isnt really necessary as the main utility is the stun. it might add for some cool mechanics in zvt where one can go infestors to actually delay the terran army until the tech to hive units is reached. similar to swarm in bw. utilizing the max range would require for sight of the army via overlord or burrowed units. it would make infestors a better transitional unit to delay until hive while still being a great unit with the rest of the t1/t2 mix. id write more but shoulder aching from surgery | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
Is there ANY way that it can be buffed subtly without making them inba? I mean....they can be EMPed, Sniped, Feedbacked....Super brittle, and their spells just make it easier for OTHER zerg units to perform their roles. Its a true support unit. Other spellcasters do instant damage, or damage over time. While fungal growth does do 36 damage, its mostly a "DONT MOVE WHILE MY BANELINGS OR ZERGLINGS COME IN" spell. I feel a buff to fungal growths AOE, and maybe a movement speed increase and time increase to infested terran would be in order. I think Pros aren't using them because of a combination of the above. While 1 infestor at every base spells doom for hellions, or a medivac full of marines, it's costly, and APM intensive. Could you somehow hotkey a queen with an infestor, and have one at each base? A queen and an infestor together can make a pretty good defense for any base. Anyway, here is a poll to help maybe express and consolidate feelings about a potential infestor buff. Poll: Should the Infestor be buffed/how? Not fine/Neural Parasite buff. (54) They're fine the way they are. No. (27) Not fine/Cost decrease. (18) Not fine/HP buff. (13) They're not fine, but I have no idea how. (8) Not fine/Fungal growth buff. (5) They're too powerful. Nerf somehow. (5) Not fine/Movement speed buff. (3) Not fine/Add another ability/utility. (1) Not fine/Infested Terran buff. (1) 135 total votes Your vote: Should the Infestor be buffed/how? (Vote): They're fine the way they are. No. 1. Are they completely fine and we're just missing a utility? 2. They're not fine, but you have no idea how to make them stronger, without affecting the game negatively? 3. They're not fine, and a fungal growth buff would benefit the infestor, be it range, damage, AOE radius, or mana cost of the spell? 4. They're not fine. Infestors are way too slow to be used properly. If infestors were faster, they could be used to harass with infested terrans, force scans, turrets, and maybe be able to dart to the front lines and then out of danger? 5. They're not fine. It needs another ability or utility. Maybe adding an attack to the infestor, making it so that infestors give off an aura of some sort, giving it consume, or an AOE frenzy spell would benefit its usage while not making it overpowered? 6. They're not fine. Maybe the neural parasite ability needs to be decreased in cost, increased in range, or the time of the spell needs to be changed? (Or reverted back to permanent.) 7. They're not fine. Infested terrans are too weak. If the infested terrans were buffs in strength, speed, or duration, detection, scans, or turrets would have to be used to combat infestors from ransacking bases? (You have to consider the cost of burrow as well when doing harass with infestors) 8. They're not fine. The infestor is too costly. While the infestation pit takes nearly half as much time to get up as a spire, the infestor is too costly to be used with muta play. Maybe decrease its mineral cost to 50 to allow for more lings to be made with the infestor, increasing its effectiveness as a support unit, or for less gas, maybe 25 less, to allow for more mutas to be constructed in conjunction? 9. They're not fine. They're too squishy! Tanks auto target them, and two volleys of tank fire will automatically kill an infestor. Feedback also is an issue, because you're saving up for that money fungal growth, and if you wait just a little bit too long, an infestor can be one shotted right before being able to cast fungal. Increase its HP to combat this? 10. They're too powerful. A nerf is in order. Maybe people haven't found out to proper utilities to infestors in general, but you've witness enough evidence of infestors almost single handedly taking out bases with just a few infested terrans, destroying entire mineral lines with two well placed fungals, or repeatedly negative drop play to justify them remaining at the strength they are now? | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
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ducis
Canada96 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:45 MrCon wrote: As my first post wasn't very helpful, I think a good way to use infestors is to do the following. A lot of GSL or other tournament TvZ plays like this :the terran 2 raxes, harass a little, then expand and tech to stim while macroing a marine ball (with 3-4 marauders to tank banelings) then push. This push will hit at the typical timing when the zerg have his first 4-6 mutas (that are useless against this push). The spire takes 100 seconds to build, +33 seconds for the first muta. The pit takes 50 seconds +50 seconds for first infestor. With 2 infestors that you build immediatly after pit instead of spire you'll have 2 fungals ready at the exact usual first muta timing. With 2 infestors + some lings you crush this push, with 6 mutas you'll die most of the time (unless you produce an insane amount of lings). Only one fungal on the marines will prevent them from stiming, and in any case will leave them too weak to handle speedlings. Infestors are safer and allow power droning. I don't say replace mutas by infestors, I just think timing wise infestors are way better than mutas to deal with the first push. After that resume your muta production if you want. They can be used exactly for the same purpose as the 2 or 3 first lurkers in a bw TvZ. You can't fungal with 50 energy. Your build is wrong. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
1. They're fat, this makes it hard for them to cast a spell then back up. Often times they get pushed by the zerg wave right into enemy fire. 2. They're high attack priority. 3. Tanks and Colossi rip them apart 4. They're very gas heavy + you need time or 150/150 to be able to use them at all. Still they're quite useful, just hard/tricky to field. You should seem them semi-regularly in ZvT and ZvZ. As to TLOBrian, if they need to be buffed lowering their attack priority or giving them more ability to push apart friendly units and path between them is what would be needed. An NP buff couldn't hurt either  , I miss the days when you could cast NP while burrowed making it actually usable. It wasn't even really OP when it was in game anyways. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:38 jdseemoreglass wrote: I am 3k+ masterleague zerg as well, and to be honest, I have NEVER made an infestor in a 1v1 ladder game. Gas is such a precious resource I feel like infestor is a waste. Given a choice between an upgrade or infestor, I will choose upgrade 100% of the time. Not to mention I already feel like I am jumping around constantly with micro/macro/map control/scouting/injecting/creeping, I feel like taking even more time for a perfectly placed fungal growth is too rare an opportunity to be worth it imo. Then again maybe I just suck and it is a huge leak, but I never used them and don't plan on it anytime soon. Even in ZvZ, when I see my opponent getting infestors, it feels like a free win. Oh, you can lock me down for a few seconds? Well my +2/+2 speedroaches/hydras are still gonna pwn your whole army. I'm not quite at your level but I was about to type everything that you just said. Also, I remember some top terrans saying that infestors aren't a problem for them at all.... MarineKing once said something like if he sees infestors then he knows he's going to win. In ZvT, every infestor means less mutas, less banelings... and you simply need all that you can get. The only unit mix that makes sense that includes infestors in roach/infestor, but terran has stimmed marauders and tanks which make this pretty bad. In ZvZ it feels like there ought to be room for infestors, but the roach wars can be won and lost on some really small things... slightly faster upgrades, or one or two less roaches. I guess if you get ahead, infestors could help you stay ahead by preventing the enemy from retreating, but it's hard to make them worth it against roaches. They're definitely useful if the other zerg gets mutas out, but if he does that you should have beaten him with your roaches already. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:57 Jermstuddog wrote: You can't fungal with 50 energy. Your build is wrong. But you can with 50 energy +33 seconds I guess, that's why the build is not wrong, but I typical zerg is typical. "I didn't saw idra do it, so it sux" | ||
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Obaten
United States730 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:04 MrCon wrote: But you can with 50 energy +33 seconds I guess, that's why the build is not wrong, but I typical zerg is typical. "I didn't saw idra do it, so it sux" It's 130s if you research glands. (50 pit, 30 glands->start infestor). Also while in the situation described the infestors are nice they can have their own problems when made first. If he goes for banshees or drop play he can/will overwhelm your infestor energy leaving you completely vulnerable, especially if he combines a push with it as well. Mutas are great ZvT because you can use them to consistently deny Terran harassment. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:04 MrCon wrote: But you can with 50 energy +33 seconds I guess, that's why the build is not wrong, but I typical zerg is typical. "I didn't saw idra do it, so it sux" 2/3 of your posts in this thread are useless trolling; really helpful there. Also no you can't use infestors to break the initial push, I've tried dozens of times to use a varation of what your suggesting but the issue is even if you get 2 amazing fungals and lock down half the ball you won't have banespeed done in time when your getting fast infestors so the remaining units steamroll you. Also if they open anything other then pure M/M without mutas to snipe dropships, banshees and tanks you auto lose. The other issue is infestors don't give you the map control mutas do which means their 3rd comes down faster and your third / fourth are very delayed. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:10 TheButtonmen wrote: 2/3 of your posts in this thread are useless trolling; really helpful there. Also no you can't use infestors to break the initial push, I've tried dozens of times to use a varation of what your suggesting but the issue is even if you get 2 amazing fungals and lock down half the ball you won't have banespeed done in time when your getting fast infestors so the remaining units steamroll you. Also if they open anything other then pure M/M without mutas to snipe dropships, banshees and tanks you auto lose. The other issue is infestors don't give you the map control mutas do which means their 3rd comes down faster and your third / fourth are very delayed. Lets say burrow was a much faster upgrade, and infestors were cheaper, could you see infestors being able to harass effectively to being able to lock down expansions with it? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:15 TLOBrian wrote: Lets say burrow was a much faster upgrade, and infestors were cheaper, could you see infestors being able to harass effectively to being able to lock down expansions with it? I don't think faster burrow on Infestors would make them overtake Mutalisks on the harassment/control front. That being said, I think a lot of us liked what leenock was doing in GSL4, but at the same time it showed the risks of heavy infestor play, he didn't have the means to control/delay Ts expansions and basically ensured a very slow death for himself. In time, I think roach/ling/bling/muta/infestor will be the way to go against T, but it takes a LOT of practice to get all those things working well together. | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
Also, infestor micro is pretty tedious. I'm not seeing many ghosts or templars used in pro games either, right now. All the really micro-heavy units. This might chance if JD, Flash etc. switch over to SC2.  | ||
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