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On December 04 2010 03:50 farseerdk wrote:
I've played against Griffith many times (he's an IRL friend of mine), and he is a LOT better than his ladder rank gives him credit for. His apm and mechanics are not that fantastic, but his game sense and the refinements of his builds are. I am a protoss player so I can't really play him to test this build, but I wouldn't discredit it right away.
Here's my question:
1) How does this fair against a very aggressive 2 base zerg. A/roach/baneling/speedling 2 base bust that is timed to occur when you're throwing down your 3rd OC? Seems to me that you should have a dip in production when you start massing OC's. This should be quickly recovered, but if you screw up even a little bit in your early marine pressure, you could be facing more than you can handle in a certain timing window.
2) How does this fair against an infestor stall that allows the zerg to get 3-4 bases up quickly? I know you have early rax to pressure with, and the mules should give you an income advantage so long as your main doesn't get mined out, but with only barracks units, it's conceivable that the zerg could stall with well placed infestors and defend with lings and speed roaches, provided they have good creep spread.
3) If your 200/200 push fails for whatever reason, aren't you screwed since your main is mined out thanks to mass mules anyway and a quick counter will probably crush your newly acquired 3rd?
4) If you're on an island map, why not use one of the OC's to take an island 3rd? Like on LT or Scrap.
EDIT: call me if you want to do a variation of this against my protoss! I can also try to play zerg but you know I'm only like 1000ish points skill level with zerg.
1) I've been baneling busted and 7RRed/5RR all-ined, I can hold it 80% of the time. The early marine pressure is sort of a "fake" move, designed to make the zerg think 5rax allin or 2rax/expo as it looks the exact same. But yes, there is a weak point at around 6-7 minutes, and bunkers will be needed
2) Infestors are so gas intensive, MM is tough against infestors, so I try to add in tanks. Remember, Zerg needs to be on four bases to have the same level of mineral income. So its kinda OK if he's on 4. Infestors/Blings are a huge problem, hence the mech variant is more feasible.
3) Usually we take an expo while moving out
4) LT/Scrap station are definite good choices, DQ is another one as it has an easy 3rd
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On December 04 2010 07:31 Griffith` wrote:
1) I've been baneling busted and 7RRed/5RR all-ined, I can hold it 80% of the time. The early marine pressure is sort of a "fake" move, designed to make the zerg think 5rax allin or 2rax/expo as it looks the exact same. But yes, there is a weak point at around 6-7 minutes, and bunkers will be needed
2) Infestors are so gas intensive, MM is tough against infestors, so I try to add in tanks. Remember, Zerg needs to be on four bases to have the same level of mineral income. So its kinda OK if he's on 4. Infestors/Blings are a huge problem, hence the mech variant is more feasible.
3) Usually we take an expo while moving out
4) LT/Scrap station are definite good choices, DQ is another one as it has an easy 3rd
What's cool about this is you can send out strong squads to each of your opponent's 3 expansions, and yes he might be able to stop one with his army, but won't be able to stop all 3 at the same time since you have a higher army count compared to his droning.
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On December 04 2010 07:07 Griffith` wrote:
get 1 or 2 thors
It is generally inefficient to get large numbers of mutas, mutas are not damage dealers, they are mainly harassers.
On December 04 2010 07:18 statikg wrote:
Definitely don't get thors, thats terrible advice, marines rape mutas, more mutas means less blings, infestors means your more likely gonna win, you WANT them to make mutas.
Sorry, but as a Zerg player, I have to side with Griffith on this one.
1-2 Thor's is always a good investment. They win vs everything on the ground except lings (which they still kill 1 per 1.38 seconds, not too shabby, but not worth the Thor cost)
you can further supplement the Thors with some SCVs since you have 4 OCs and 8 SCVs costs you literally 34 seconds of unit production time. 2 Thors and 8 SCVs adds so much sexy to anything you want to do it's hard for them to not be good.
Going for mass amounts of Thors may not be viable, but 2 is always worth it.
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Do it pls ! And mules will be nerf ! At last =)
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Do Overseer's contaminate prevent OC's from calling in mules? If so, there's a really simple Z response to this build. I don't think it does, but it's worth throwing out there; I almost never contaminate an OC, so I'm unsure, even as a midrange Diamond Player.
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On December 04 2010 08:14 hizBALLIN wrote:
Do Overseer's contaminate prevent OC's from calling in mules? If so, there's a really simple Z response to this build. I don't think it does, but it's worth throwing out there; I almost never contaminate an OC, so I'm unsure, even as a midrange Diamond Player.
Mule energys still get stored up though, so it doesn't really matter if i'm stalled for one volley of MULEs. And having a huge number of marines in base will make it tough for your overseer.
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On December 04 2010 07:42 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:07 Griffith` wrote:
get 1 or 2 thors
It is generally inefficient to get large numbers of mutas, mutas are not damage dealers, they are mainly harassers. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:18 statikg wrote:
Definitely don't get thors, thats terrible advice, marines rape mutas, more mutas means less blings, infestors means your more likely gonna win, you WANT them to make mutas. Sorry, but as a Zerg player, I have to side with Griffith on this one. 1-2 Thor's is always a good investment. They win vs everything on the ground except lings (which they still kill 1 per 1.38 seconds, not too shabby, but not worth the Thor cost) you can further supplement the Thors with some SCVs since you have 4 OCs and 8 SCVs costs you literally 34 seconds of unit production time. 2 Thors and 8 SCVs adds so much sexy to anything you want to do it's hard for them to not be good. Going for mass amounts of Thors may not be viable, but 2 is always worth it.
This is incredibly one dimensional thought, yes maybe a thor is always worth it versus mutas, but is all the infrastructure worth it in a build that depends on 2 gas gotten at 30 supply? No, you need all that gas for reactors/techlabs/upgrades at first and then maybe later on you COULD add a thor, maybe for your second push but that would make your army damn immobile, and since this build depends on macroing up a giant army before the zerg can get enough units, that extra walk time could easily break the build.
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i don't know why you'd build a thor when you can just get turrets with your ridiculous mineral income. Use the gas for tanks and upgrades.
are there any replays of +1 muta/ling ?
I'd like to test this build.
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Great job, I think you may have found a little bit of an imbalance here. Keep exploiting it so blizz can fix.
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On December 04 2010 08:14 hizBALLIN wrote:
Do Overseer's contaminate prevent OC's from calling in mules? If so, there's a really simple Z response to this build. I don't think it does, but it's worth throwing out there; I almost never contaminate an OC, so I'm unsure, even as a midrange Diamond Player.
Even if it did, it wouldn't matter
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To anyone descrediting this build, you probably haven't played alot of TvZ. As someone who does, I feel like this build is very feasible as I do a variation of it just about every game vs Zerg. The power of OC really is undervalued and I always get amazed at people who play TvZ (and even TvP) like in SC1. Ill do a lengthier post describing my experiences when I get home since Im on my phone right now.
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If a zerg player sacs an overlord and sees multiple OC's and responds by mass expanding (double expand after natural, possibly to a gold), is there a way to attack more quickly with a smaller army to deny a quick 3rd/4th?
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On December 03 2010 05:40 Saechiis wrote:
Hahaha, just watched the replay on Xel'Naga.
No way that's a 2.3k Zerg. He never scouted you after seeing the initial 2 rax and just started to blindly pump banelings off 2 base and proceeded to not do anything with them till you attacked him with a maxed bio army. He never even scouted you had expanded and had 5 orbital commands lol.
His macro also kinda sucked, after he threw all his banelings into your bio (and for some reason he moved them along with the muta's so the mutalisks didn't even attack) he had 3k 2k in minerals and gas saved up but no larvae to spend them on since he never used larvae spit.
Long story short, if he had rolled all those banelings he had built into your bases you would've died. If they were roaches you also would've died, if he had expanded for every command center you made you also would've died.
It's just economic cheese.
LOL!!! Well Put! At any rate though it souds like a fun build.
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On December 04 2010 09:24 farseerdk wrote:
If a zerg player sacs an overlord and sees multiple OC's and responds by mass expanding (double expand after natural, possibly to a gold), is there a way to attack more quickly with a smaller army to deny a quick 3rd/4th?
Tried this a few times, at around the time which you are getting stimpack there is a timing window that when if you are all in'd you probably cant hold. Right after stimpack is finished and you have about 8 raxs you can probably have a few harrassing groups easily.
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Even more to the point, why would you get thors when you have metric tons of stim-marines?
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You don't need to get thors to exclusively counter mutas, they also serve as awesome meat shields (tanks just don't quite cut it)
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i cant see this working at high lvl but funny
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I think that it doesn't matter if zerg takes a 3rd and a 4th because in my experience he doesn't nearly have the larva to even saturate the 3rd as he needs to use it all for unit production to defend the push. Maybe if he sacced an OL really early and figured it out while the CCs were being built he would be able to do so I'm not sure...but if he did that then maybe he would be better off making a bunch of roaches and pushing you at the weak point? Anyway I usually scatter a few marines around the outskirts of my base to try to ward off exactly that scenario.
Btw, marauders are the meat shield.
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On December 04 2010 09:24 farseerdk wrote:
If a zerg player sacs an overlord and sees multiple OC's and responds by mass expanding (double expand after natural, possibly to a gold), is there a way to attack more quickly with a smaller army to deny a quick 3rd/4th?
You can pump out a huge number of marines off your 6 raxes and start an early pressure at 75 to 100 food at as early as 9 minutes. Remember zerg will have been hit by a 5 marine push at around 5:00, this 5 marines will also be able to deny any early overlord scouting to prevent seeing the 4OC. Your fourth 4th CC is placed at around 5:30 and finishes at around 7:00. Meaning realistically, the Zerg would have to sac Overlords to see the 4OCs at around 5:30 and double expand at between 6 to 8 minutes. If he starts the expos at 6:00, he won't finish the hatcheries until 7:40.
You have at least around 15-25 marines already at 8:00 (from the production off of the 2rax). At 8:30 minutes the Terran already has 6 raxes churning out marines non-stop. I think the timing is too dangerous for the zerg to double expand. Taking a 2nd expo seems feasible, but 3rd seems impossible. Again, even taking a 2nd expo doesn't even come close to 2200 minerals/min.
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I love how 2300 zerg doesn't look like he could even reach 2300 D+ iccup.
Are there any reps of this being played in the wild against more solid players? Though I suppose it is kinda tough considering even quite silly builds can win if its the first time the opponent has ever seen it.
Oh, and you really should produce fewer scvs. Considering how late your third is and how quickly you deplete your main you don't need 70+ scvs when you move out. That money should be used to create a stronger 200/200 push. And is it really difficult to tech a bit during this time? In one of those games you didn't even mine gas from your natural so it seems as if you aren't even trying to take advantage of supporting tech options.
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EPT
