[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 6

Griffith`

714 Posts

December 03 2010 03:20 GMT

#101

On December 03 2010 11:52 30to1 wrote:
I just actually watched these replays and I'm a little disappointed. Maybe you guys are high rated but those were very bad games. Did you have an agreement with him that he wouldn't do anything till 10 minutes or so?

No there was no agreement.

itzjohnny

62 Posts

December 03 2010 03:48 GMT

#102

I felt very uncomfortable how he never once scouted your base after he saw your in-base OC being made and those 2 barracks. Assuming he didn't know you were doing this kind of build to begin with, he just made a bunch of banelings to counter 2 barracks worth of infantry that never came (excluding the first marine push since banelings weren't out then).

If he had scouted better, i think he could have better prepared it for himself.
Then again, he did see all he needed to see with that first group of mutas and he still continued to make drones as opposed to pure army. Honestly, if I saw a group of MM that big with 1/1, I'd be a little worried if I only had a bunch of banelings. With just decent control, huge disasters can be minimized as you have done. So I think the Zerg underestimated his army vs yours.

Another thing to note, your fast OC's benefit you until the Zerg starts to get their 3rd functioning. After that, it just falls back to standard play. So if your first 200 push fails, I don't see you coming back out of that since those MULEs sped up the mining process faster than it really should be, depleting your minerals faster. I guess that could have been avoided temporarily if you had established another base before you went to attack because your main was fairly mined out at that point.

Belial88

United States5217 Posts

December 03 2010 04:04 GMT

#103

I bet this build would own Idra

30to1

105 Posts

December 03 2010 04:05 GMT

#104

Griffin, what do you think about 3OC variations?

Hopeless1der

United States5836 Posts

December 03 2010 04:32 GMT

#105

This almost seems like a viable build except for the fact that the replays are pretty much garbage. Zerg doesnt scout at all, FE's late, has no ovies watching for any kind of push. I refuse to believe that any serious effort went into the zerg's play (at least on Jungle Basin; didnt watch the second game). Didnt try to backdoor or put any kind of pressure on.

The payoff takes too long for Mass OC to ramp up before zerg feels like straight up destroying you.

kankerganker

Denmark58 Posts

December 03 2010 05:06 GMT

#106

so much HERP DERP THIS BUILD SUX LOL THE ZERG SUX LOL so few replays of the build losing

sixghost

United States2096 Posts

December 03 2010 05:08 GMT

#107

On December 03 2010 14:06 kankerganker wrote:
so much HERP DERP THIS BUILD SUX LOL THE ZERG SUX LOL so few replays of the build losing

Because that is clearly the best way to determine a build's effectiveness.

fUddO

Canada197 Posts

December 03 2010 05:12 GMT

#108

On December 03 2010 14:08 sixghost wrote:

Show nested quote +

Because that is clearly the best way to determine a build's effectiveness.

Actually, it would be. I want to see how this build would fair in the hands of a competent player under pressure.

DuneBug

United States668 Posts

December 03 2010 05:19 GMT

#109

Did some testing as zerg, with rather unimpressive macro and about 20 larva invested into zerglings around the 25 food mark I was able to have about 50 banelings, lots and 8 infestors (with gland) out by the 13 minute mark. I had 4 hatcheries up but only 2 saturated, working on the 3rd. Creep was rolled out to the middle of the map. My total food was about 130, which was what you expected.

So probably 66 food of drones, 25 food banelings, 16 food of infestors and the remainder was virtually all zerglings.

I'd feel pretty comfortable fending off hordes of marines with 50 banelings and 8 full energy infestors.. At least enough to keep my other bases defended from that push.

I don't understand how you expect to macro up a 200/200 army immediately though. Even on 16 rax that's 16 food every 25 seconds.. I'll assume something more like 20 rax... So you need 8 prod cycles which is 200 seconds... And you can't start building until the rest of your shit dies...

Obviously you'll have a second push ready within 3 minutes, but a zerg can mass quite a bit of stuff in 3 minutes.

I'm not saying the build is unviable, i don't think it would be a gimme for the zerg in any fashion. Probably the best thing to do against it is baneling drops trying to pick off mules, or fast tech to zergling brood lord... But you wouldn't know that from the early scout so i don't think hive tech would arrive in time.

Griffith`

714 Posts

December 03 2010 06:14 GMT

#110

On December 03 2010 14:19 DuneBug wrote:
Did some testing as zerg, with rather unimpressive macro and about 20 larva invested into zerglings around the 25 food mark I was able to have about 50 banelings, lots and 8 infestors (with gland) out by the 13 minute mark. I had 4 hatcheries up but only 2 saturated, working on the 3rd. Creep was rolled out to the middle of the map. My total food was about 130, which was what you expected.

So probably 66 food of drones, 25 food banelings, 16 food of infestors and the remainder was virtually all zerglings.

I'd feel pretty comfortable fending off hordes of marines with 50 banelings and 8 full energy infestors.. At least enough to keep my other bases defended from that push.

I don't understand how you expect to macro up a 200/200 army immediately though. Even on 16 rax that's 16 food every 25 seconds.. I'll assume something more like 20 rax... So you need 8 prod cycles which is 200 seconds... And you can't start building until the rest of your shit dies...

Obviously you'll have a second push ready within 3 minutes, but a zerg can mass quite a bit of stuff in 3 minutes.

I'm not saying the build is unviable, i don't think it would be a gimme for the zerg in any fashion. Probably the best thing to do against it is baneling drops trying to pick off mules, or fast tech to zergling brood lord... But you wouldn't know that from the early scout so i don't think hive tech would arrive in time.

Its really a 140/200 army (60 food goes to SCVs), to replenish 140 food, its not INSTANT, obviously, but it'll let Terran have re-plenish macro thats almost as fast as zerg. Zerg, hands-down, has the fastest re-army speed of any race.

Noxie

United States2227 Posts

December 03 2010 07:12 GMT

#111

This is pretty strong. It def plays itself off as an early aggression build, you need ladder replays though. You also need replays vs better zergs. I will do this build vs some teammates and post but I think scouting makes this really easy for the zerg. as soon as he sees this hes obviously not going to go muta, and will switch to bling / festor. when this happens I think even though the zerg (food wise) is behind. His units can be cost effective enough to kill the army. I guess if you scout you can go more marader heavy.. but I just think bling // infestor after scouting this is too easy..

So post replays as you get them, I will try to upload some as well.

deth

Australia1757 Posts

December 03 2010 08:34 GMT

#112

ogstop did a 3OC 2 base style in a tvz with a mech transition - it didnt work at all versus a competent zerg.

Bommes

Germany1226 Posts

December 03 2010 09:29 GMT

#113

But I do think that it's very good in TvZ or really any matchup to get a lot of OCs, because it's so important to keep production up, or you will lose late game. I think terran will evolve into getting an OC at his third and maybe even fourth (depending on map) expansion as well and just relying on good map sense and maybe 1 or 2 sensor towers to protect them. And because you need a lot of scans later in the game to not lose the fight because of position that already burns into your mules.

Planetary Fortresses are imbalanced if they are attacked, but even then they aren't even that good if they are not repaired, and pretty much every race has ways to kill PFs without taking too much damage (even with something like roaches, if it's not repaired (cause of blings) and there are 15+ roaches the PF maybe barely kills stuff worth its costs)
I don't like Planetary Fortresses at all, they suck and they are not nearly as versatile as OCs. Imo they are just used because everyone is lazy and because way back in the beta people started to attack PFs without a plan and lost 100 supply because it got repaired, but the amount of money you need to secure an expansion just as good as a PF would do is provided by an OC with mules in about 3-4 minutes.

AraqirG

United States266 Posts

December 03 2010 10:56 GMT

#114

2k diamond terran here. I played around with this build today and here are a few quick thoughts.

1. Holy macro batman, you get an insane income with all the OCs. Its legitimately hard to spend all your money late game with this build.

2. You still have to build a lot of supply depots. While early game, CCs make great replacements for depots, late game it doesn't work since your supply is increasing too fast and CCs take too long to make.

3. Late midgame/lategame you basically have maphacks. Soo many scans

4. I've adapted the build a little and it can work against toss on maps with narrow chokes to the natural (LT and steps)

I still have a lot more testing to do to see if this is viable vs high diamond players on a regular basis but my initial feeling is if you can time the transitions and hit important timings, this build could be pretty strong.

Replays soon.

Rflcrx

503 Posts

December 03 2010 11:04 GMT

#115

On December 03 2010 14:06 kankerganker wrote:
so much HERP DERP THIS BUILD SUX LOL THE ZERG SUX LOL so few replays of the build losing

So much HERP DERP THIS BUILD IS AWESOME LOLO no replay of the build winning.

Weirdkid

Singapore2431 Posts

December 03 2010 11:41 GMT

#116

I tested this build out a couple of times this afternoon too. It feels really too unsafe at the start though, as with any other time you're powering stuff. Early aggression hurts so soo much. Bunkers pretty much needed unless your opponent is totally not interested in attacking at all.

It is hilarious when it works though

Zerging the zerg for a change feels pretty nice.

Point to note though for people wanting to try this, you might want to float your 3rd and 4th to other expos at your second 200/200 attack because that's when your minerals start running out, if indeed you're only attack at max army

Thanks for the idea.

Belial88

United States5217 Posts

December 03 2010 11:41 GMT

#117

This is a really hard build to pull off, probably because it's so counter-intuitive, but it has a lot of promise and is by no means bad.

LoL maybe one day people will recognize the signs of a 4 OC rush ^____^

Against Protoss you need 4 gas to get mass vikings and ghosts out.

Spiegel

Australia79 Posts

December 03 2010 12:42 GMT

#118

So much scrub theory-craft in this thread. Nothing ever works against someone who knows exactly what you're doing who is decent. Instead of just proclaiming that its bad any decent zerg could counter it. Go try it out and then if you get beaten by decent zergs come and cry.
It seems like a decent economic cheese to me. I watched the second replay, your opponent wasn't the best but you owned him thoroughly despite your own similarly imperfect play.

Kaitsuh

Finland45 Posts

December 03 2010 13:04 GMT

#119

I've often pondered why there seems to be some sort of gap in logic in the way people think of building SCVs. This is how it is now: If you're taking an early expo and want to play in a macro-oriented way, you'll want to keep making SCVs out of both orbital commands almost constantly if you can, right? Because that gives you good income. And it's a horrible situation to be in if you're behind on workers.

But soon as someone mentions that maybe it's worth making a extra OC for even faster saturation, some folks go crazy and get angry. Who decided that the arbitrary formula of "make 1 worker at a time per base, and no faster than that" is the optimal way of doing things?

As a zerg I'm watching this type of play coming up with great interest. Surely there's situations or builds where the terran can flip the tables and go "If you don't pressure ME, I'll make a shitload of SCVs instead"

ABAH

Australia43 Posts

December 03 2010 13:07 GMT

#120

jungle basin game was a joke. After he owned ur army at 19 mins there was no reason not to push.

I'm really not convinced by this strategy..

Ret can max after 14 mins with zerg without.

All this does is it gets terran to max faster, but at the cost of the late game -> if the push fails u should essentially lose (the fact u didnt in the reps is moot)

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[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 6

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