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On December 04 2010 10:26 numLoCK wrote:
I love how 2300 zerg doesn't look like he could even reach 2300 D+ iccup.
Are there any reps of this being played in the wild against more solid players? Though I suppose it is kinda tough considering even quite silly builds can win if its the first time the opponent has ever seen it.
Oh, and you really should produce fewer scvs. Considering how late your third is and how quickly you deplete your main you don't need 70+ scvs when you move out. That money should be used to create a stronger 200/200 push. And is it really difficult to tech a bit during this time? In one of those games you didn't even mine gas from your natural so it seems as if you aren't even trying to take advantage of supporting tech options.
That zerg did not hotkey one unit the entire game.
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I can't believe people are still surprised how bad some people are at 2000 Diamond. If you play enough games, you will get there. You don't lose as many points as you win, and Battle.net forces you to get 50% winrate. So for simplicities' sake, for example, if you gain 2 points for every win, and lose 1 point for every loss, you'll get 10 points every 10 games @ 50% win rate. 20 points every 20 games, etc. There are thousands of people out there with hundreds of games making that possible.
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I would love to see this strategy against a zerg player who does more than play Sim City. In both replays, it was the same zerg player, who did not bother to scout until he had mutalisks around 12 minutes. Furthermore, this awful zerg player kept all his lings, banelings and mutas in one control group, so that while he was positioning the banelings with move commands, the rest of his army didn't attack either.
Are these matches fixed? Is this zerg player purposely playing really stupidly so that he gets owned by a simple mass MM push and can't beat it with ling/bane/muta? He didn't get melee/armor upgrades either btw, while you did, so of course you rolled him.
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Sorry but some of you people are just trolling
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg.
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
Seriously I'm starting to feel that some of you are either trolling or are in bronze.
To all the Diamond 1k+ zergs players who are complaining. Add me on Griffith.583 (US) and we'll play a few games so you can give me your inputs directly.
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On December 04 2010 10:26 numLoCK wrote:
I love how 2300 zerg doesn't look like he could even reach 2300 D+ iccup.
Are there any reps of this being played in the wild against more solid players? Though I suppose it is kinda tough considering even quite silly builds can win if its the first time the opponent has ever seen it.
Oh, and you really should produce fewer scvs. Considering how late your third is and how quickly you deplete your main you don't need 70+ scvs when you move out. That money should be used to create a stronger 200/200 push. And is it really difficult to tech a bit during this time? In one of those games you didn't even mine gas from your natural so it seems as if you aren't even trying to take advantage of supporting tech options.
I'm making a replay pack as we speak, esp against ones where zerg tries to early roach rush. I find 5rr + reinforced roaches requires 2 additional bunkers to be placed down, luckily 5rr is also easily scouted and you can react to it fast enough.
I've noted the weakness in pure MM, so I added a mech transistion as well that takes advantage of the 4 gases.
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Can we get replays of this NOT working? I didn`t check the first 2 but I assume it was a winning effort.
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this build is great in theory, however, terrible in implementation much like communism or facism. furthermore, you assume your opponent doesn't scout (like in the replay you posted) not to mention it can be wrecked by a multitude of builds:
kyrix style sling bling
7roach rush
too lazy to think of more off the top of my head.
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not only does this give you a ton of extra mules, you can produce (from his example) 4 scvs at a time. that does rival non queen hatchs...
this depletes the main in an obscene amount of time.
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On December 04 2010 13:00 majestouch wrote:
this build is great in theory, however, terrible in implementation much like communism or facism. furthermore, you assume your opponent doesn't scout (like in the replay you posted) not to mention it can be wrecked by a multitude of builds:
kyrix style sling bling
7roach rush
too lazy to think of more off the top of my head.
The build definitely has potential to be amazing. I've been watching SMI team members do it all night, and when done by a great player, it's really much more solid than one might thing. There really isn't any build that doesn't have weaknesses, and I really don't think anyone intelligent in this thread is arguing to the contrary.
That said, Fascism is good in theory?
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Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out:
1-base baneling bust.
Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play).
4-gate
Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion)
vs Terran(?)
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I'm out today, could anyone do this build with banshee/marine combo?
I believe the rate of marine production makes medivacs unnecessary and the added initial damage from banshees will be crazy.
Or marine/raven.
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What I dont understand is why not apply pressure as soon as the economy kicks in? Why sit on your ass building 16 raxs and making 200 food army?
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On December 04 2010 13:23 Bixs wrote:
What I dont understand is why not apply pressure as soon as the economy kicks in? Why sit on your ass building 16 raxs and making 200 food army?
You don't have to sit on your ass, but your rate of production is so fast that you will produce faster than the zerg. In fact, if the zerg is trying to stabilize a 3rd or try to take a 4th, its almost better to push at 100 or 150 food. I
That said, some units, like siege tanks, really need to hit a critical mass (4-5) to be really effective and would ideally have the +1 weapons upgrade. You really want stimpack, marine shields, and 1/1 to be done, and i find that by the time they finish, its already around 120-150 food.
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On December 04 2010 13:19 Cryosin wrote:
Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out:
1-base baneling bust.
Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play).
4-gate
Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion)
vs Terran(?)
I dont' recommend doing this against protoss mainly because stalkers w/ blink will make your wall-in kinda useless. Btw do you know the timings for economy roach push? I've done it against 5rr/7rr which is when the CCs are going up and I've managed to defend against it.
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This is brilliant, and really showcases the untapped power behind MULES. However, you were practically mined out by the 20 min mark. If that last push hadnt won the game, you probably wouldnt have been able to keep up the production from all those raxes.
Also, be careful about overstimming without medivac support. Theres no need to stim to take out a hatchery when you can't heal back up.
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Cool build....I Like the idea
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Been practicing it, and it is potentially very strong against zerg. Gotta watch out for econ baneling builds. Mass infestor doesn't do much against this mass bio ball since you're constantly reinforcing off of 10 rax. 2 bunker defends well against a roach rush. Muta harass is basically useless against this build since you can throw up a million turrets. Gonna start practicing with the factories to be able to push out with defense against banelings. Still learning the timings though, and its pretty cool having to reorient everything I learned about being terran with being able to outmacro zerg. If nothing else, thumbs up to both the OP of this and the other mass OC thread for an original approach.
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Opening
10 Supply Depot
12 Rax (make marines)
14 Rax (make marines, once you make 5 marines send them to the enemy ASAP, you want to deal damage, exchange supply with zerg)
--> I might wanna throw up bunkers with marines if Z go roaches/fast counter with lings, and delay OC a bit
15 OC
16 Supply Depot
22 CC
27 CC
27 Supply Depot (SD is built AFTER CC because we should have been able to free 5 supply from the 5 marine rush)
31 CC
33 Gas
33 Gas
Once CCs are finished, convert into orbital commands. Take only your natural, dont bother taking your 3rd until you have 200/200
MM(+M) Transition:
Marine Marauder is an extremely strong transition as it has a relatively low gas dependence, and is thus, mineral-bound. IE. you only get 2 out of the 4 geysers. Marauders can tank Banelings like a boss. Your goal is to immediately make the equivalent of a 20 rax. eg. while adding in two engineering bays. You can feel free to send in waves at 60 food, 100 food, and 150 food, it will keep the zerg on his feet.
Building Composition:
4 Marauder producing Raxes w/ tech lab (8 marauders every minute, 16 supply)
6 Double Marine producing Raxes w/ reactor (28 marines every minute, 28 supply)
Replenish rate: 44 supply every minute.
The following 6 things are important:
1. Take Expo and put up Bunkers at expo, transfer workers, constant MULEs.
2. Set up turrets at base and expo to prevent muta harass.
3. Research Stim, Marine Shield, +1 weapons upgrade, +1 armor upgrade. EDIT: and concussive shells (thanks for the replies). Keep up those upgrades!!
4. If he has a heavy heavy roach or baneling army, increase marauders ratio to 1:1.
5. On your way out, move another OC and secure your third with your humongous army
6. Your 200/200 army is PERSISTENT, meaning it can replenish it self extremely fast (within minutes). It's almost an aggressive "300-food army" , as coined by day9.
What this gives you:
13-14 Minute Push (12:30 provided you have perfect macro):
Wow. Nice job. Your creativity made my day. I can see this will be a very strong push, and if I got beaten back by some Zerg miracle, I'll add in Medivacs and Tanks for contain and drops.
Anyway, patiently waiting more opinions and feedback on viability against Protoss.
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On December 04 2010 13:32 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 13:19 Cryosin wrote:
Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out:
1-base baneling bust.
Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play).
4-gate
Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion)
vs Terran(?)
I dont' recommend doing this against protoss mainly because stalkers w/ blink will make your wall-in kinda useless. Btw do you know the timings for economy roach push? I've done it against 5rr/7rr which is when the CCs are going up and I've managed to defend against it.
Not just blink stalkers. Nearly any kind of 1 base aggression from a Protoss would crush this. 3gate robo with a quick immortal can just bust down the depot wall. 3 gate stargate would be less dangerous but also powerful if your opponent is smart enough to use a phoenix to spot onto the high ground for warpgates. An ordinary 4 gate is scoutable but would require 2 bunkers to defend, i'm quite sure. You'd shut down a DT opening fairly okay, since you'll probably have at least one OC with enough for scan (or close to it).
Also, since this build doesn't get anywhere near raven tech, it's pretty easy to obs scout this build and MM is highly highly vulnerable to storm. HT + FF = win against MM. 12.30 is enough time to get either several ranged colossus or storm out, both of which would win against a pure MM army, even with a significant food count disadvantage.
I would have to test the timings but mass expanding also seems like a viable way to counter this as protoss.
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EPT
