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On December 04 2010 15:17 farseerdk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 13:32 Griffith` wrote:On December 04 2010 13:19 Cryosin wrote:
Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out:
1-base baneling bust.
Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play).
4-gate
Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion)
vs Terran(?)
I dont' recommend doing this against protoss mainly because stalkers w/ blink will make your wall-in kinda useless. Btw do you know the timings for economy roach push? I've done it against 5rr/7rr which is when the CCs are going up and I've managed to defend against it. Not just blink stalkers. Nearly any kind of 1 base aggression from a Protoss would crush this. 3gate robo with a quick immortal can just bust down the depot wall. 3 gate stargate would be less dangerous but also powerful if your opponent is smart enough to use a phoenix to spot onto the high ground for warpgates. An ordinary 4 gate is scoutable but would require 2 bunkers to defend, i'm quite sure. You'd shut down a DT opening fairly okay, since you'll probably have at least one OC with enough for scan (or close to it). Also, since this build doesn't get anywhere near raven tech, it's pretty easy to obs scout this build and MM is highly highly vulnerable to storm. HT + FF = win against MM. 12.30 is enough time to get either several ranged colossus or storm out, both of which would win against a pure MM army, even with a significant food count disadvantage. I would have to test the timings but mass expanding also seems like a viable way to counter this as protoss.
+1, early game protoss aggression is quite dangerous unless there's some form of marauder w/stim or concshells tech. Both of which requires gas, and which delays the extra CCs significantly. TvP lategame is not the same as TvZ late game. Protoss late game units are just sooo cost effective against bioballs (which is what the vast majority of mineral needs to be dumped into). You can't spread marines/bioballs against storm/HT nearly as efffectively as you can against banelings.
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This is pretty awesome. I came into this thread thinking "oh great, another guy who thinks he invented something trying to name a build after himself."
But this is really innovative, and even if it doesn't pan out in the long run, it's better to have tried something new and brought it to TL than to just practice the same old builds. Can't wait to try it myself when off-racing.
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If nothing else, if it becomes commonplace, it forces zerg to sac an early Overlord to confirm whether or not it is a 2 Rax Aggro, 2 Rax Expand, or 4 CC Macro, and make them really nervous if you snipe their Overlord before they can get far into your base with the scout.
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Tried it for fun... Worked pretty well lol. I think it works well on shakuras since you can float orbitals over to nearby expo sites. Maxed out at like 14minish (forget the time) then just mass rallied marines/marauders/medivacs against zerg. I'm ~2800 terran
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This seems pretty good if zerg doesn't go early aggression, otherwise I think it's a little too fragile to be used regularly. Maybe this could be pulled off in certain situations such as playing a player like IdrA on cross positions in a big map like Shakuras Plateau. However, the concept of staying on 2 base but with multiple OCs intrigues me.
Now, I may be only in silver and don't have as good of an understanding of the finer points of strategy as some of you but I think the concept of using multiple OCs to boost economy could be used to address some of Terran's mobility issues once zerg gets on 3+ bases with lots of creep spread. Let's say you opt for a bio heavy army early on and you just can't seem to stay even on zerg. Obviously to keep up, you'd want to take some expansions of your own, but since your army is bio heavy there's a great chance they'll go muta/ling/bling maybe some infestor. They have the mobility to keep up with zerg somewhat, but they have to be spread really thinly the longer the game progresses, which makes mech more attractive since they're very effective against zerg. However, switching to mech puts you in an awkward position against zerg as they have good map control at this point and mech is very immobile. This immobility would make expansions harder to defend thus making a heavy mech composition less attractive. Howver, multiple OCs on only 2 bases allows you to boost your economy while giving you an easier to defend position.
Obviously, this is a very very rough idea at the moment as it was something that I thought of on the spot after reading a few posts in this thread. Perhaps we could come up with an effective way to take the multiple OC eco boost concept and incorporate it into the TvZ metagame?
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Well, seeing as this build is vulnerable to sling/bling, would it really hurt you that much to get up enough gas for a factory for Hellions with or without blue flame? Perhaps even incorporate a pre-200/200 harass attack on an expansion?
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On December 04 2010 16:56 Conrose wrote:
Well, seeing as this build is vulnerable to sling/bling, would it really hurt you that much to get up enough gas for a factory for Hellions with or without blue flame? Perhaps even incorporate a pre-200/200 harass attack on an expansion?
There's two transitions, pure MM(+M) , or Hellion/Tank/MM. If you are uncomfortable microing that many MM, the Hellion/Tank/MM transition works just as well, if not deadlier, though ableit, slower.
You can definitely attack pre-200/200 as shown in IronClad vs DukeWu's game (btw, NICE game and macro!). I saw you send countless MM waves, it was hilarious watching him burn through your marines with blings and you just come right back to his expos NP like a boss.
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On December 04 2010 17:03 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 16:56 Conrose wrote:
Well, seeing as this build is vulnerable to sling/bling, would it really hurt you that much to get up enough gas for a factory for Hellions with or without blue flame? Perhaps even incorporate a pre-200/200 harass attack on an expansion? There's two transitions, pure MM(+M) , or Hellion/Tank/MM. If you are uncomfortable microing that many MM, the Hellion/Tank/MM transition works just as well, if not deadlier, though ableit, slower. You can definitely attack pre-200/200 as shown in IronClad vs DukeWu's game (btw, NICE game and macro!). I saw you send countless MM waves, it was hilarious watching him burn through your marines with blings and you just come right back to his expos NP like a boss.
I just saw the replay and found that same thing hilarious, it essentially was 4 Base Terran vs 2 Base Zerg before even calculating the Oversaturation gains.
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Mindflow just used the build to stomp a 2500 zerg
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couldnt this build be used against 2 gate play or robo play? obviously 4 gate and 6gate as well as 3 gate tech could hurt, but the popular concensus is that terran beats p early game. a flash of what he thinks is 2 or 3 rax would lead him to play defensively, allowing you to reap benefits.
essentially what my point is is that perhaps this build cou
deal quite well against protoss on maps with and natural like jubgle basin or delta quadrant and with colossus play - 2 geysers is enough to sustain pure mm but getting 4 from 2 base would allow you to easily pump vikings. ghost play could also transition very easily.
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actually theres no way the idea behind this build couldnt be developed for vT or vP. I understand maybe not this exact build but the idea that 'minerals are worthless is vP and what is the deciding factor in vP is gas' sounds wrong and would to greater imbalances if true.
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I really like this build. I've done it several times versus very hard AI (I know that is nothing compared to diamond play) Right after you get those 4 command center it gets crazy with all that income. I feel like I'm a Terran zerg with all those marines getting mass produced. Once I'm able get a handle on all that extra income + attacking - I think I'll try it out on the ladder.
Thanks for the build order!
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Mindflow beat avilo with this build on my stream tonight. Beat a couple of people with it. Granted, avilo was off race and then beat Mindflow in a straight up match, but hey, it does work some. Wish I would have saved VOD's of the matches...
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It would be nice if the ZvT matchup could stay not broken for five minutes 
Zerg's counter to mass marine is a mixture of one-use, gas-heavy units. Even without this innovative *coughbullshit* build, it's a tall order. Not to mention that infestors mean fewer mutas, which means there's nothing to kill the growing numbers of medivacs.
Maybe infestor/roach/hydra would work? There's no way zerg can produce blings fast enough; even vs two normal bases it's a close call.
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On December 04 2010 17:31 Griffith` wrote:
Mindflow just used the build to stomp a 2500 zerg
could you stop doing that?
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Oh god, this has got to be absurdly fun for random 3v3 games.
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On December 04 2010 17:45 Belial88 wrote:
couldnt this build be used against 2 gate play or robo play? obviously 4 gate and 6gate as well as 3 gate tech could hurt, but the popular concensus is that terran beats p early game. a flash of what he thinks is 2 or 3 rax would lead him to play defensively, allowing you to reap benefits.
essentially what my point is is that perhaps this build cou
deal quite well against protoss on maps with and natural like jubgle basin or delta quadrant and with colossus play - 2 geysers is enough to sustain pure mm but getting 4 from 2 base would allow you to easily pump vikings. ghost play could also transition very easily.
The only flaw with this build is that its essentially limited to the normal number of units that're gas users. So you can't spam out ghosts like you can marines, which unfortunately get eaten up by colossus.
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If you are making pure marauder/marine/viking you could pump vikings out of a single reactor non stop to more than overwhelm any Colossus play. If 1 base 3 rax MM is supported by a single gas, 1 starport w/reactor is 2 gas for constant viking production, you'd still have a geyser left over to get 1/1 upgrades infantry if you have taken an expansion.
Ghost transition would be easy, and be fairly normal in the view that it's a common and normal 3rd base transition goal. You're 2x Viking production would be much faster than his 1 colosi production on 2 base.
A normal number of Vikings are enough to make PvT balanced in regards to Colossi, and the sheer number of marines and marauders on top would tip things in your favor.
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You heard it here first: Mules to cost 1 or 2 supply while they're alive. I honestly can't see any other future in a world where T's best early, mid and late game unit is mineral-only :p
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EPT
