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On December 05 2010 03:55 statikg wrote:
I meant when do you get +1 atk and +1armor, I would think you would want +1 attack to also be done for your first attack.
The upgrades take 160 seconds or 2 minutes and 40 seconds. If you aim to push at 14:00 you want to start researching them at 11:20. Ebay takes 35 seconds to build, you want to put down the double ebays at 10:45 latest.
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For all those zergs complaining about the replays and pointing out flaws, go challenge Griffith and expose those flaws if you want to aid discussion
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On December 05 2010 01:14 whatthefat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 11:06 Griffith` wrote:
Sorry but some of you people are just trolling
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg. You can't be serious. 1) Zerg didn't even see a terran unit or building before the 5 marines arrived. The game was worthless from that point on. 2) Two rax + expo is all the info zerg had, i.e., a totally standard pressure into expand opening that can transition into just about anything. ANY competent zerg would sac an overlord to gain more info there. Terran could be going just about any tech route. Hell, he wasn't even poking at the front. Show nested quote +
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
This isn't true either. For proper micro they need to be in separate control groups. If the terran is microing properly and not just allowing their troops to be surrounded, you need to be able to separately order lings to attack and banes to move in the midst of engagement. In the games you showed it wouldn't matter what zerg does though, since you were just 1aing into wide open spaces.
1) Yes he should have had more lings, I agree with you there. But that doesn't make the game worthless. He had enough drones to make up for any damage I did.
2) Do you even know the timing of ovie scouts for "competent zergs"? Even LeenockfOu scouts at 9 minutes. By that time the OCs would already be finished. It would make no difference.
3) LeenockfOu also puts everything into one control group (infestors/bling/ling) exactly because it is easier to surround.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/GSL3/3442 if you want proof of statements 2) and 3)
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Hey Griffith, i posted in 30to1's thread but my build actually looks a lot like yours. I've been doing mass marines and tanks but I'm starting to like marauders and medivacs with the marines better for handling banelings, roaches, infestors, just about anything. Im also thinking that I should be building more orbitals throughout the game, and expand more aggressively after the replenishing stream of m&m kicks in.
For the haters, I absolutely insist you try this before you knock it. The whole thing sounds clunky and risky but i was really surprised. A wall made out of two rax and a cc is solid, and you can hold off rushes without too much trouble. You can secure your natural quite easily on all maps except XC and metalopolis, in which case I delay a bit and move out with a large force and bunker up. I couldn't believe how much money I had. My Zerg practice partner knew exactly what I was doing (I told him) and he droned as hard as he could and got his third on Shakuras. The dreaded Zerg economic game in which I applied no pressure and let him power drone, but I was almost equal on harvesters - plus four mules. We traded armies over and over and he couldn't keep up with my production in a 30 minute game, even with full knowledge of my build.
I'm far from the point of calling this playstyle unbeatabe, and I need much more testing, but this feels very viable so far. This is the future - Sauron Terran - get on board or get left behind! (intentionally hyperbolic, relax)
edit: rather than a 5 marine push, which can be fragile, I prefer bunker pressure. Start it before the spawning pool is finished, rally your first marines over, and try to build is where it won't be scouted right away. It doesn't have to be at the ramp or right next to the hatchery, you can even leap frog, the whole point is just to force lings to be made. Don't over-commit of course, and salvage when you see too many lings. The only times I regret it are when I get greedy and try to block the ramp when he has full vision of it.
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So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
Has someone tried to fast track Brood Lord tech while using Ling/Bling to defeat the initial MM pushes?
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On December 05 2010 06:38 Conrose wrote:
So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
Has someone tried to fast track Brood Lord tech while using Ling/Bling to defeat the initial MM pushes?
Note that the ideal scouting time is around 6-7 minutes, so counters and effective builds should be adapted based on that information. This means that blind 5RR/7RRs are NOT "counters" as they require a very early decision.
That having said, I think mass bling/sling all-in might cause issues at the expansions.
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On December 05 2010 06:49 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 06:38 Conrose wrote:
So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
Has someone tried to fast track Brood Lord tech while using Ling/Bling to defeat the initial MM pushes? Note that the ideal scouting time is around 6-7 minutes, so counters and effective builds should be adapted based on that information. This means that blind 5RR/7RRs are NOT "counters" as they require a very early decision. That having said, I think mass bling/sling all-in might cause issues at the expansions.
Hehe, Zerg may have to adjust the timing for the Overlord sac if this build becomes popular, after all, it shares an opening build with 2 other popular builds.
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At the moment every zerg mu makes me smile :D
I don't see the obvious counter either
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I've tried this build a few times with a ~2k practice partner. I lost 3 games and won 1.
In most cases, it was close, I just needed better macro. Even after practicing this several times, I'm still not used to the income. You have to build sooo many production structures. I need more experience before I'll make my thoughts on this BO.
So I've also been trying a variation of this against toss on maps with narrow naturals (LT, steps) etc.
I fake taking gas, and expo off 1 rax marine with a bunker at the front of the nat.
Now, most tosses will expand themselves since they can't really scout you at this point. Nobody has 1 gate robo collosi'd me but I'd assume that you'd die immediately.
I stick with no gas until I start a third CC in my main, constantly producing scvs marines and rax as needed.
Note: You can't really afford to get the 4th cc since it delays too much against collosi or templar.
Next, after the third CC has started, take 3-4 gas in rapid succession, add reactors, tech labs, ebays, facts, etc as needed.
Basically, you use the extra cc to saturate your bases much quicker (along with the mule)
The build is relatively safe since 1-3 bunkers as needed+repair holds off most protoss agression. You go into the midgame with an economy about even with the toss and into the late midgame with a much stronger economy. The games I have lost doing this build I've lost due to overcommiting to viking production and delaying ghosts too long (templar are so fucking good 
Reps as soon as I get home.
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It is hard to get good zergs nowadays 
Here is a 2.2k zerg, where I almost lost, because I didn't secure my natural timely enough and didnt micro marines at all. This match however conviently illustrates the power of mules !
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112528-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
This whole oc abuse is earning me a quick 100 points
Wee! 2400+ 
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On December 05 2010 06:38 Conrose wrote:
So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
I typically go 2 rax into expand into more rax and tanks, and baneling attacks can still break my natural even with extra unit production coming up faster (and often being used to wall). The window of vulnerability on a build that delays additional rax for CCs would seem to be even larger.
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I think the best counter to this is an "Eco Baneling Bust" off 2 bases. However I think good building placement and bunks can stop that.
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I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
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This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
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On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
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On December 05 2010 10:11 Bixs wrote:It is hard to get good zergs nowadays
I think it's more along the lines of "It's hard to get good players nowadays". Being 2400 barely means anything at all, people can grind their way to 2400, people can get lucky and get to 2400, people can be in an easy league and get to 2400. There's so many ways to get high up in Diamond without actually being that great, and a major reason you can do that now is because there are so many bad players playing. SC1 was the same way in the beginning, there were terrible players everywhere making it so people who many good players deemed terrible could still beat over 50% of the population. It happens with any system, if at 2,000 players being Diamond meant you were skilled at 4,000 players it could mean you are most likely skilled and at 6,000 players it could mean you are bad but because of the amount of people you are above average and therefore are placed in Diamond.
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On December 05 2010 11:46 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ? How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay? Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim. How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
You will die to eco baneling bust for sure, which is already one of the most common responses to the 2 rax FE. And you can easily scout it on a number of maps. Probably only shak that has a main big enough for you to be lucky and he wont see it and he will see it every single time on xel naga. Yeah sure this build could probably work, but there are tons of cheeses out there that works.
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On December 05 2010 11:46 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ? How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay? Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim. How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
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EPT
