On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Excuse me.. but..
What the hell is economic cheese?
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead
Relying on your build not being scouted for it to be effective.
You know.... It's called a Hidden Expansion... or a FE... don't call every other fkin thing cheese. lol
On to the actual topic! Dude I loved when you lost 80~ish marines and had the same supply as the zerg. As a protoss... thank god I'm not worrying about seeing THIS in one of my games... lol
i've been doing this in daimond ladder and suprisingly vs zerg it's been dominating, i only lost one game to an unscouted semi mid game baneling bust right when all my oc's finished and just started on first mule wave... at the second mule wave it's pretty much already too late for the zerg as your macro/income will skyrocket and start to snowball out of control for the zerg... if this is scouted by an enemy you have to kill with mid pressure or copy by taking 4 expo's yourself ASAP. very good build your definately onto something with this. and it is fun destroying 120 armies with a maxxed 200/200 hehe
On December 05 2010 18:18 iEchoic wrote: I actually started doing this on 4v4s for fun, except actually taking 4 expos. If my 3 teammates keep me alive, it's actually very easy to 1v4 the entire other team. The production capabilities are just sickening.
However, here's some problems I see in solo:
1) The entire discussion is based on the assumption that you're playing against a standard zerg build. Usually some kind of 14-hatch into normal 2-base zerg stuff. However, if you're doing a balls-to-the-wall economic powering strat, why can't they? There's no reason a zerg player couldn't take a 3rd or 4th hatchery as soon as they scout it and fight off your push (or know ahead of time if you try to use it as a standard build). In this situation, they could actually out-macro you on 2 bases (when the gas income is taken into consideration).
2) Well-executed sling/bling contains are going to be hard to beat. They can't bust you if you play it right, but they can surely prevent you from taking your second with adequate pressure and then contain you (Kyrix aggression style). 4ocs on one mineral line is not going to pay off any time soon.
That's not to say this is worthless, but that like most TvZ builds at the moment, it basically relies on deception and hoping your opponent is unaware of what you're doing.
1) The build is 1base baneling bust proof and 5RR/7RR proof. For the zerg macro point, i'll copy and paste what I wrote in the FAQ:
"Q: Why doesn't the zerg double/triple/quadruple expand? A: Let's look at the timing. Remember zerg will have been hit by a 5 marine push at around 5:00, these 5 marines will also be able to deny any early overlord scouting to prevent seeing the 4OC. It also makes it seem like you are doing a standard 2rax-expo or 5-rax all-in. The zerg can only comfortably double+ expand if he has scouted your build. You can hide your CCs away from the ramp. Your fourth 4th CC is placed at around 5:30 and finishes at around 7:00. Meaning realistically, the Zerg would have to sac Overlords to see the 4OCs at around 5:30 and double expand at between 6 to 8 minutes. You will have enough marines patrolling your base to make scouting difficult. If he starts the expos at 6:00, he won't finish the hatcheries until 7:40 (they take 100 second, queen won't be out until 8:30). The production capabilities of 20 rax equivalent trumps that of 3hatch.
You have at least around 15-25 marines _already_ at 8:00 (from the production off of the 2rax). At 8:30 minutes the Terran already has 6 raxes churning out marines non-stop. I think the timing is too dangerous for the zerg to double expand. Terran doesn't _have_ to sit until 200/200. Triple expanding means zerg will have no way of defending a 75 or 100 food bioball push. Taking a 2nd expo seems feasible, but 3rd seems impossible. But again, even taking a 2nd expo doesn't even come close to 2200 minerals/min."
2) The ability to take your nat is fairly map dependent. On maps like metalopolis/Xel'naga towers, the nat has a huge wide and accessible space. Other maps like Jungle base/delta quadrant has easy expos. However, I learnt that if you make your natural expo's wall-in with a few bunkers and your assload of barracks, it is extremely difficult to bust, the zerg is pretty much forced to go all-in if he wants a chance. Even if you are slightly contained, you can overmule your main's minerals, it alone will provide more than enough income for you to build up an army to secure your natural.
After watching the reps and playing around with it i have to say this could be even stronger with upgrades and medivacs. if you dont get him after your 1. or 2. wave your chances are slim.
To make it viable for a long game with constant marine pressure you should try to build 1 Rax less and make gas and EngBay instead. Next 100 gas to stim or shield and the build seems ready to take zergs in the long run Of course you need to take your 3. and 4. expo accordingly.
I'm concerned with the damage those first 5 marines do, do you think the jdseemoreglass 11 pool 18 hatch will be able to simply repel the early pressure, putting you under the gun for a possible early counter? It seems like the answer to the builds this could be disguised as is early pressure, either to deny a fe or survive an all in. From people's responses it appears to be a great macro, but it just seems like quick busts/contains could cripple its effectiveness?
On December 06 2010 03:19 Teddyjex wrote: It seems like the answer to the builds this could be disguised as is early pressure, either to deny a fe or survive an all in. From people's responses it appears to be a great macro, but it just seems like quick busts/contains could cripple its effectiveness?
True. When the zerg is very agressive, you will be behind a lot. I tested this against a 2300+ diamond zerg. I defended with 4 bunkers and he still did some amazing damage.
I think you just broke the game, or at least the meta game. I couldn't win a TvZ to save my life, even in the early game (1k Diamond Random). Now I seem to win without trying.
Anyone else think the mule should have been nerfed, even before this?
On December 06 2010 04:16 StatusAttack wrote: I think you just broke the game, or at least the meta game. I couldn't win a TvZ to save my life, even in the early game (1k Diamond Random). Now I seem to win without trying.
Anyone else think the mule should have been nerfed, even before this?
No, not at all. Imagine protoss taking 2 hidden expansions. If you sit back as terran you will lose.
This is economical very risky and a very agressive zerg will roll over this without a problem.
I always thought of the idea of making extra OC's, because as stated after 100 energy (50 seconds or so after it completes) you get your money back and start to make a profit. How would you deal with baneling agression with a 16rax build lol
A mule lasts 67.5 ( Real seconds ) and is equal to 5 SCVs for the duration 4 mules per interval = temporary +20 scvs ( Ignores saturation )
4 mules = 1080 minerals gone per base per 67.5 seconds (Real Seconds)( takes 12.4 minutes to get rid of 8x1500 minerals only mules/no scvs ) could be greatly less if you added in 24 scvs ( 3scvs x 8patches ) ~7.5 minutes? should drain all the island expands on scrap or something...
if the OP is going to do this, all the mules should be spent on expansions ( keep the CCs where they are to continue collecting gas )
with 4 orbitals, you could build 4 workers at a time ( perhaps use some of them for auto repair on your army + offensive bunkers/turrets? )
since you're going to fast expand, you could get a quick armory and 2 ebays...gas should be fairly easy to get and minerals aren't a problem
On December 04 2010 11:06 Griffith` wrote: Sorry but some of you people are just trolling
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg.
You can't be serious.
1) Zerg didn't even see a terran unit or building before the 5 marines arrived. The game was worthless from that point on.
2) Two rax + expo is all the info zerg had, i.e., a totally standard pressure into expand opening that can transition into just about anything. ANY competent zerg would sac an overlord to gain more info there. Terran could be going just about any tech route. Hell, he wasn't even poking at the front.
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
This isn't true either. For proper micro they need to be in separate control groups. If the terran is microing properly and not just allowing their troops to be surrounded, you need to be able to separately order lings to attack and banes to move in the midst of engagement. In the games you showed it wouldn't matter what zerg does though, since you were just 1aing into wide open spaces.
1) Yes he should have had more lings, I agree with you there. But that doesn't make the game worthless. He had enough drones to make up for any damage I did.
2) Do you even know the timing of ovie scouts for "competent zergs"? Even LeenockfOu scouts at 9 minutes. By that time the OCs would already be finished. It would make no difference.
3) LeenockfOu also puts everything into one control group (infestors/bling/ling) exactly because it is easier to surround.
On 1), I disagree. If zerg is behind from the 5 minute mark and then playing in the blind to the 12 minute mark then it's no test of the build.
Regarding 2), there is no fixed timing for scouting. A good zerg should scout when they need to scout, i.e., whenever down on intel. In that game, I would have been poking the front and/or sacing an overlord around the 7 minute mark. The lack of a follow up to the first marine push coupled with the fast expo tells zerg that terran is going to be teching hard, or putting down production facilities for a scary low tier 2 base push. It's absolutely critical to check what's going on at that point in time - zerg relies on active scouting to survive. If you don't scout, you will lose, simple as that.
Had zerg seen the OCs, I suspect a Kyrix-style baneling bust would end the game before terran's economy has kicked in.
3) If you watch LeenockfOu's micro, he often separately selects the lings and banes during combat to better micro them, which he can get away with due to his APM. Just putting them in a control group together isn't enough.
On December 06 2010 03:19 Teddyjex wrote: It seems like the answer to the builds this could be disguised as is early pressure, either to deny a fe or survive an all in. From people's responses it appears to be a great macro, but it just seems like quick busts/contains could cripple its effectiveness?
True. When the zerg is very agressive, you will be behind a lot. I tested this against a 2300+ diamond zerg. I defended with 4 bunkers and he still did some amazing damage.
Yeah Griffith i think the fear is not the 1 base bust or rr, but rather the quick 2base push.
So I think the key in doing this against terran and protoss, is having constant pressure and making sure they don't get that critical mass of tanks or colossus. force them to keep spending on units instead of teching. There was a good replay earlier by gcoin really demonstrates how mass marine or bio in general could overwhelm a colossus army and since then I've been practicing that type of constant aggression against terran and protoss and really seems to work well since you can outproduce even after losing 2-3 smallish armies
On December 06 2010 05:26 TheRealDJ wrote: So I think the key in doing this against terran and protoss, is having constant pressure and making sure they don't get that critical mass of tanks or colossus. force them to keep spending on units instead of teching. There was a good replay earlier by gcoin really demonstrates how mass marine or bio in general could overwhelm a colossus army and since then I've been practicing that type of constant aggression against terran and protoss and really seems to work well since you can outproduce even after losing 2-3 smallish armies
Against terran: good luck fighting a 6:30 minute rine + tanks with siegmode push.
Against protoss: by the time your OC's are up, a 4gate is @ your door or even worse: a stalker + voidray bust.
This build is really strong against someone passive, but believe me, it is really weak against early agression. A 2base zerg doing some agression will kill you before your economy starts kicking in. Your natural will be heavily damaged and by the time you recovered, the zerg will be way ahead. I really would like to see a high level tvz where the T wins after a 2base agressive zerg with this build.
Well, I have seen this build about 10 times already in custom games. All the Terran players appear to be trying it. It is a very nasty build. The only way I have had success on it is through a quick roach tech. Not exactly a roach rush, but the roaches get out when you need them. If you scouted right, or you have the intuition to know that your opponents build is mass orbital based on wall and units, then your only choice really is to bust it down between the 5:00 - 6:30 minute mark or so. If you went roach without speedling and didn't hatch before pool, you will have more than enough roaches to kill the Terran's pure marine army. A key part to the roaches working is that his first marine harass squad is at your natural right when your 1st or 2nd round of roaches pop, effectively making the marines a lost investment, and your roach death ball is heading on down for victory. Regardless of that, it is still a crazy strong build, and will definitely change the metagame, at least for the next several weeks. Hopefully I can learn to beat it easily now, so my ZvT ladder games get much easier along the next few weeks.
On December 06 2010 04:16 StatusAttack wrote: I think you just broke the game, or at least the meta game. I couldn't win a TvZ to save my life, even in the early game (1k Diamond Random). Now I seem to win without trying.
Anyone else think the mule should have been nerfed, even before this?
No, not at all. Imagine protoss taking 2 hidden expansions. If you sit back as terran you will lose.
This is economical very risky and a very agressive zerg will roll over this without a problem.
Statements like this should have replays included. In my experience I have not been vulnerable to any early aggression. And if the Zerg makes all those units instead of drones he will have problems keeping up later. I am curious what you think the Zerg should do to "roll over this without a problem."
Note that I am not talking in absolutes, zergs can probably beat this in a variety of ways but it's silly to say that it is that easy for either side. Honestly these statements make you sound like you just wrote it off because it sounds crazy, and it does. But I tried it and was amazed at how effective it is. My wall consists of two barracks and a cc, I don't even worry about stopping them from scouting, although as this build becomes more popular I probably should. If they drone up and mass expand I can keep up just fine, and if they're very aggressive I can defend it. The wall is baneling proof and roach rushes are easy to scout and adapt to. The hardest scenario is probably a high econ roach bust that hits at the right timing window before the mules kick in and after i've landed my expo. I feel like this is only going to be relevant on XC and Metalopolis, as it's easier to block the natural on other maps. At worst, this requires patience and smart play from both players, with scouting playing a big role as well, it's not an auto loss for anybody.
edit: Dente, I just saw some of your other posts, it looks like you did try it at least once and the discussion has turned to a later timing push, which I agree should be the primary concern . I would still say that such aggression is far from an easy win but it should be accounted for.
Personally I think the best play from Zerg is to play a high econ game and worry about map control after surviving that big push. And everyone needs to relax and be measured in their responses. If you don't know what you're talking about and come in here to bash it because it's different, you aren't helping the conversation. Seriously, try it out and see what you think.
I've played this build against muta baneling a few times and it feels like it can go either way IF they really get a lot of mutas to brute force your turrets AND enough banelings AND your micro is bad enough to lose all marines to those banelings. This scenario hasn't happened with all these factors at once yet, probably because resources are finite . But it's fairly easy to be a little ahead on supply and block banelings with marauders (marine micro doesn't even have to be stellar). That comp is much less scary when you're ahead in supply. Don't forget those fast upgrades! I'll post some replays when I get home and get some laddering in.
On December 06 2010 06:02 Senorcuidado wrote: Note that I am not talking in absolutes, zergs can probably beat this in a variety of ways but it's silly to say that it is that easy for either side. Honestly these statements make you sound like you just wrote it off because it sounds crazy, and it does. But I tried it and was amazed at how effective it is. My wall consists of two barracks and a cc, I don't even worry about stopping them from scouting, although as this build becomes more popular I probably should. If they drone up and mass expand I can keep up just fine, and if they're very aggressive I can defend it. The wall is baneling proof and roach rushes are easy to scout and adapt to.The hardest scenario is probably a high econ roach bust that hits at the right timing window before the mules kick in and after i've landed my expo. I feel like this is only going to be relevant on XC and Metalopolis, as it's easier to block the natural on other maps. At worst, this requires patience and smart play from both players, with scouting playing a big role as well, it's not an auto loss for anybody.
I wasn't talking about a baneling bust. I was talking about 2base agression. You land your CC and you bunker up. Then banelings + roaches + speedlings come and they don't kill you, but they hurt you a lot.
On December 06 2010 05:26 TheRealDJ wrote: So I think the key in doing this against terran and protoss, is having constant pressure and making sure they don't get that critical mass of tanks or colossus. force them to keep spending on units instead of teching. There was a good replay earlier by gcoin really demonstrates how mass marine or bio in general could overwhelm a colossus army and since then I've been practicing that type of constant aggression against terran and protoss and really seems to work well since you can outproduce even after losing 2-3 smallish armies
Against terran: good luck fighting a 6:30 minute rine + tanks with siegmode push.
Against protoss: by the time your OC's are up, a 4gate is @ your door or even worse: a stalker + voidray bust.
This build is really strong against someone passive, but believe me, it is really weak against early agression. A 2base zerg doing some agression will kill you before your economy starts kicking in. Your natural will be heavily damaged and by the time you recovered, the zerg will be way ahead. I really would like to see a high level tvz where the T wins after a 2base agressive zerg with this build.
I've gone up against both with the build. Against T, push with your first five marines with the double rax and you'll hurt them enough they'll be nervous about pushing then just keep pushing once you get decent size groups, don't feel like you need to constantly reinforce. Against P, you have double bunker, +repair and you'll do fine, again while putting on constant pressure, those first 5 marines are important. Naturally some of this is map dependent such as ones with backdoor rocks etc. You just have to be careful with fast expand on maps with open areas, where it'd be better to first floating one of your oc's to a different base and using mule call down.
EPT
. I would still say that such aggression is far from an easy win but it should be accounted for.
. But it's fairly easy to be a little ahead on supply and block banelings with marauders (marine micro doesn't even have to be stellar). That comp is much less scary when you're ahead in supply. Don't forget those fast upgrades! I'll post some replays when I get home and get some laddering in. 
