|
On December 06 2010 06:15 TheRealDJ wrote:
I've gone up against both with the build. Against T, push with your first five marines with the double rax and you'll hurt them enough they'll be nervous about pushing then just keep pushing once you get decent size groups, don't feel like you need to constantly reinforce. Against P, you have double bunker, +repair and you'll do fine. Naturally some of this is map dependent such as ones with backdoor rocks etc. You just have to be careful with fast expand on maps with open areas, where it'd be better to first floating one of your oc's to a different base and using mule call down.
Then you didn't met competet terrans. I, for example, put a bunker up in tvt. At 6:30 I will be at your door with marines + a tank with siegemode. A minute later it will be 2 tanks.
What are you going to do against a protoss that expands + keeps on forcefielding your ramp?
|
On December 06 2010 06:10 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 06:02 Senorcuidado wrote:
Note that I am not talking in absolutes, zergs can probably beat this in a variety of ways but it's silly to say that it is that easy for either side. Honestly these statements make you sound like you just wrote it off because it sounds crazy, and it does. But I tried it and was amazed at how effective it is. My wall consists of two barracks and a cc, I don't even worry about stopping them from scouting, although as this build becomes more popular I probably should. If they drone up and mass expand I can keep up just fine, and if they're very aggressive I can defend it. The wall is baneling proof and roach rushes are easy to scout and adapt to. The hardest scenario is probably a high econ roach bust that hits at the right timing window before the mules kick in and after i've landed my expo. I feel like this is only going to be relevant on XC and Metalopolis, as it's easier to block the natural on other maps. At worst, this requires patience and smart play from both players, with scouting playing a big role as well, it's not an auto loss for anybody.
I wasn't talking about a baneling bust. I was talking about 2base agression. You land your CC and you bunker up. Then banelings + roaches + speedlings come and they don't kill you, but they hurt you a lot.
ok it appears we are in agreement  . I think the best way to handle this is good scouting, which isn't always easy of course. It may pay off to delay landing the expo on XC and Metal until the production kicks in, even though you'll mine out the main quickly. Double starport banshees can either win the game or give you enough map control to secure the expo against this kind of play, but that's all theory. When I mech that's how I usually deal with it but I already have the starport so it's easier. That might actually be a cool idea to experiment with.
|
FE into timely 3rd CC is way better. if you don't harass a zerg you lose
|
This is working very well for me. I'm 4-0 with it so far vZ, tried it out against a couple protoss but couldnt win, too many collosus or 3gate robo early pressure knocks down my bunkers.
Zerg have a tough choice to make, they have to basically switch to overdrive unit production as soon as they scout it, in which case they are gonna be screwed if they dont kill you in the next few minutes, note that on maps with easily defended naturals this is much harder for them, or they have to hang back and try to defend, It might be doable with enough infestors and banelings, but so far I hanv't seen it happen. Roaches is a death sentence.
I played one game where the zerg manged to kill quite a few of my scvs with banelings from the side on xelnaga, he did it again later on in the game. It wasn't enough to make a difference though becuase I was able to easily replenished my scvs off 4CCs and once I took the gold all the mules really made me income go crazy. Even though you mine out 2 bases super fast with this build, taking a gold as your 3rd allows you to maintain your 10rax production no problem for a few more minutes....the gold mines out reaaaal fast though.
Even if the zerg manages to do significant economy damage, it doesnt matter
|
On December 06 2010 06:20 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 06:15 TheRealDJ wrote:
I've gone up against both with the build. Against T, push with your first five marines with the double rax and you'll hurt them enough they'll be nervous about pushing then just keep pushing once you get decent size groups, don't feel like you need to constantly reinforce. Against P, you have double bunker, +repair and you'll do fine. Naturally some of this is map dependent such as ones with backdoor rocks etc. You just have to be careful with fast expand on maps with open areas, where it'd be better to first floating one of your oc's to a different base and using mule call down. Then you didn't met competet terrans. I, for example, put a bunker up in tvt. At 6:30 I will be at your door with marines + a tank with siegemode. A minute later it will be 2 tanks. What are you going to do against a protoss that expands + keeps on forcefielding your ramp?
Well I've only gone up against that build once since using the mass oc build, but against t, I'd try to pull back when I see the bunker, but don't pull back to base, go to an intercept point halfway through the map and try to take out the tank when its not in siege mode. Even if I lose that battle, I'll still have weakened the push enough to let the production facilities to be operational and mules kicking in. The key is not letting it get to a siege contain situation, hence the aggression. If they slow push with tanks, marine/marauder with stim and combat shield can actually do well against that depending on position and as long as it doesn't get to critical mass.
In the P situation, float an OC to another base, focus on getting some tanks out. If they're delaying the push by using force fields, then you're in better shape since you'll have the mass raxs/facts ready. The nice thing about this is you can be flexible while not dependent on securing the natural since you don't need to have scvs at a hidden base.
Again, I haven't tested this in every concievable scenario, just theorizing the best posture to take against both groups. Even then, they would have to specifically know the build you're doing in order to have that specific build to counter it(assuming its 100% counterable)
|
Quick question, on levels with island expands or rocked blocked expansions, could you conceivably have the 4th CC pick up SCVs, liftoff and land before going OC while the SCV's rush to get refineries up to make it a more techy macro build?
|
I doubt anyone has tested this build thoroughly enough to tell you a definitive yes or no. Most iterations rely on heavy marine production. Island-gas rush may be a viable way to develop a mech-army. However it means you're really vulnerable unless you turret up hard (which considering your mineral income shouldnt be hard)
|
On December 06 2010 07:05 Hopeless1der wrote:
I doubt anyone has tested this build thoroughly enough to tell you a definitive yes or no. Most iterations rely on heavy marine production. Island-gas rush may be a viable way to develop a mech-army. However it means you're really vulnerable unless you turret up hard (which considering your mineral income shouldnt be hard)
If you look at most of the replays vs Zerg, they go 5 Turrets per Resource line without a second thought, in one I saw them go up before the OCs even finished landing. But yeah, Scrap Station is probably a very strong map to go with a tech variation of this for since there is the Island Expansion + 2 Rocked off expansions to gas rush from... although going for the island expansion can be something of a risk as they can either play into your hands and tech mutas in response, or they rush nydus tech which one replay showed had the potential for being a fairly strong asset vs this build.
|
|
|
I ran this build a few times today and I admittedly didn't give it enough credit earlier. It's been successful on ladder, I'll run it against some better practice partners later and give results.
There are a couple kinks that may need to work out but it definitely has potential to be a solid build.
|
Here's a replay of my interpretation:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171655.jpg)
I don't know what rating this guy is, but I'm playing at high diamond.
My personal changes:
- Scrap the 200/200. You can apply pressure throughout the game.
- Pretty much it. Nice build.
|
On December 06 2010 09:36 iEchoic wrote:Here's a replay of my interpretation: I don't know what rating this guy is, but I'm playing at high diamond. My personal changes: - Scrap the 200/200. You can apply pressure throughout the game. - Pretty much it. Nice build.
I noted that you also expanded with your two extra OC's as you pushed out as well.
|
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but this build is pretty similar with the exception of the 2 CCs to marine raven except that after your first 5marine pressure you fall back and macro up instead of keeping the pressure on. Seems like a prudent idea to me to take your 3rd and 4th gas and eventually 5th and 6th and add ravens into the mix. I am guessing most people are currently choosing to go for medivacs instead though? IMO, zerg typcially depends on a big baneling ball to do most of their damage so medivacs are of questionable use. If at the end of the baneling ball you still have a decent sized group of units alive that is obviously not true though. What do you guys think?
How I used ravens in the MR strategy was to place turrets at one expansion while I pressured another with my bioball, and also for HSM as landing a HSM on a big ball of banelings is all it takes to win when your depending on heavy bio even if you are behind.
|
Well, I tried a quick test of a Gas rush approach and had 650 Gas/min by 10 minutes in without a horrible loss of bioball size until I started spamming Thors out of 3 factories.
|
Title has been changed. It's been sufficiently determined by the awesome TL community and countless feedback that a 13-minute 200/200 food is really not necessary and is very much situational.
Basic gist - time your push for when zerg's 3rd base goes up. If zerg is 2-base aggressing, then just turtle up to 200/200.
|
|
|
... I seriously hope this isn't working as well as it sounds like it is ...
Facepalmingly brilliant if it is. I guess if you go marine Raven, you will have way more marines than Z can deal with using banelings....
|
I haven't tried this yet, but I definitely will when I'm done all college finals  I have a bunch of experience late-game TvT with mass OC's and suiciding all mineral SCVS, but never thought to try it early-mid game TvZ
sounds good in theory
|
Here's a replay of my interpretation:
I don't know what rating this guy is, but I'm playing at high diamond.
My personal changes:
- Scrap the 200/200. You can apply pressure throughout the game.
- Pretty much it. Nice build.
Ive seen quite a bit of your play before and I was excited to see you had try of this build since I know your quite solid. But in that particular replay Id say that game was over at 6 minutes when your marine + scv rush killed all of his zlings + alot of drones + a queen.
After the damage that was done there the build was kind of irrelevant.
|
On December 06 2010 09:36 iEchoic wrote:Here's a replay of my interpretation: I don't know what rating this guy is, but I'm playing at high diamond. My personal changes: - Scrap the 200/200. You can apply pressure throughout the game. - Pretty much it. Nice build.
I just watched this... To be honest, it's not really a good demo since you horribly knee capped him with the 5 marine push off the initial 2 rax FE.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
