EPTin TvT, siege pushes or blue flame hellion kill you.
In tvp, fast colosi will own you (although you are extremely prepared for dark templar!), and heavy gateway compositions will cause trouble.
[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 17
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
in TvT, siege pushes or blue flame hellion kill you. In tvp, fast colosi will own you (although you are extremely prepared for dark templar!), and heavy gateway compositions will cause trouble. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 06 2010 16:19 iaguz wrote: It says so in the FAQ. Basically, there's no way in fuck this works against protoss and terran, unless you get some sick, sweet BO advatage... somehow. in TvT, siege pushes or blue flame hellion kill you. In tvp, fast colosi will own you (although you are extremely prepared for dark templar!), and heavy gateway compositions will cause trouble. In TvP, just about any 1 Base play will destroy this BO, or one that puts out more than 2 Colossi before the first major Marine push. And I've had 1 player try to DT Rush me while I was using a variant of this build, he GG'd when he finally came up my ramp and saw the OC I was using on the wall, the one at my nat and knew I had one for my main. TvT, they really only need to knock on the door with more marines than you have while the 2nd and 3rd CC's are under construction/upgrading to OCs... and lets face it, if they want to see what's going on in your base, they certainly will! | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171778.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171779.jpg) I did lose a game tonight but i forgot to save the replay. The zerg took FOUR bases before the 10 minute mark and did nothing but power drones. Needless to say I should have been more aggressive, i could have run over him at any point before those were all up and running. He went for mass banelings and roaches, and bombed my expansions quite a bit. I still could have won that game when the 200/200 armies clashed but he surprised me with some excellent baneling bombing. Overall he outplayed the shit out of me and I deserved to lose :D. His mass expanding seems like it was really risky though - without even scouting all the orbitals (just the 2 rax), any aggression from me would have done a lot of damage. iEchoic's replay is a terrific example, you really have to be aggressive. A very fun strategy, I'm still enjoying it! I've noticed that if zerg goes for standard ling/baneling/muta, it's pretty easy for me. The mutas just don't do great in a stand-up fight. A whole lot of banelings and roaches seems to be the best response I've seen so far, but I'm trying to find a good timing to add banshees. There are lots of possibilities for transitions. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
There were already before heavy bio builds used against Z, this really is no different than that other than improved economy. And pure bio has always been able to keep up well with Z in terms of ability to replenish armies. This does exactly that, but even better than before because of the improved economy. And as pointed out by others already, theres no magic time at 200/200 when attacking is ideal. The ideal attack moment will be completely depending on what your opponent does and you can't just play blind to 200/200 and then go. You need to scout and adapt to what you're facing..... just like every other build out there. From a purely economic standpoint, I'm quite sure this can be used no matter whether you go bio, mech or air, as well as against all races. Theres just no way you can argue against the mathematics that obviously prove that once you're able to start calling down mules from an extra OC, you will gain on it economically. With mech/air you will obviously run into gas problems, and thats most likely the reason it's less effective against T and P. Its still an economic gain against T and P, but in those matchup you're more dependant on actually getting gas heavy units, hence the massive mineral income wont benefit you as much as if you go pure bio. But still, that doesn't change that in any given situation (supposing you dont die because you have less units while you build the OCs) extra OCs will kick in after a while and you will benefit economically from them. I'm quite sure you could do variations of this with just 1 extra OC, as well as late game adding even more OCs to go up to 5 or 6. 4 is no magic number. Anyway, great find and mad props to OP if this would make it into high level play. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On December 06 2010 15:46 iEchoic wrote: Here's some observations so far: 1) There's a problem I've noticed when you're reconciling these facts: - You need to secure a third base when you move out - You're creating an essentially disposable army (bio) - You can not build a planetary fortress As a result, these things leave your expo undefended in the occurance that you end up trading armies with the zerg (usually banelings). Securing 3rd/4th expos is hard if your opponent goes very heavy blings/lings and ends up army trading with you on many maps. 2) I actually think this build is better suited for a jinro/immvp-style tank + bio than pure bio. The reason for this is that securing additional expansions is more valuable for you than your opponent because of your ability to maynard huge amounts of workers over because you get oversaturated very quickly. Siege tanks give you positional control. I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel. Is there a reason why we are floating out a OC to a non-island? You could just build a Pfort for your attack timing. I think you definitely have the money to do it at that point. You were floating 1K when you pushed out in your rep. I'm also curious why you built reactors instead of just more barracks. It really cut down on your unit count for your 1st major push. I really need to try marine/tank/raven with this  | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 06 2010 15:46 iEchoic wrote: I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel. Infestor rush pwns mass marines. Wow, well played. Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
If this build were to be nerfed, I'd imagine it would be through starting energy... not enough to cripple standard Terran plays, but enough to adversely affect how soon this build turns investment into huge profits. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On December 06 2010 23:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Infestor rush pwns mass marines. Wow, well played. Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG TBH I think you should've just used 2-3 bunkers to wall-off as opposed to raxes to wall off, you would have saved a lot more marines from FG/infested terrans, since you can't FG bunkers. Because he was 1basing, he also definitely did not have the gas to both mass infestor AND get a sizeable bling force to break the bunkers. You would have bought more than enough time to tech to medivacs. Zerg was 1-basing it for SOO long. I wouldn't call infestor rush a counter a counter. | ||
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Bixs
Denmark66 Posts
I personally would not put up multiple OC's if I see the zerg sticking to one base, that's just asking for trouble? | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 07 2010 02:20 Bixs wrote: Isn't this build suppose to be a response to a zerg FE? I personally would not put up multiple OC's if I see the zerg sticking to one base, that's just asking for trouble? You're able to do this while sticking to one base. Since saturation isn't an issue you can overmule your main. The only issue is you'll run out of minerals faster, but then you can just transfer workers/mules to other bases once you push out. If zerg attacks you can turtle pretty well with bunkers and other buildings in case of baneling busts/roach rush. If you see him going one base, I recommend waiting a bit to grab your expansion | ||
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lofung
Hong Kong298 Posts
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 06 2010 22:53 Antisocialmunky wrote: Is there a reason why we are floating out a OC to a non-island? You could just build a Pfort for your attack timing. I think you definitely have the money to do it at that point. You were floating 1K when you pushed out in your rep. I'm also curious why you built reactors instead of just more barracks. It really cut down on your unit count for your 1st major push. I really need to try marine/tank/raven with this I personally float an oc over to another mineral base, even if its not an island and focus all mules there, not worrying about an scv transfer. That way the main and natural don't mine out as fast. Most people aren't used to you grabbing a third that early. If the enemy discovers it, you can just float it back to safety depending on positions since there's no economic dependency on that keeping that base. If you can have two sets of 4 mules mine from there you should get more than enough money to justify the risk. Usually the risk of grabbing a third you can't defend isn't just the 550 for the OC, but the 1450 in minerals for the workers/gas. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
this is all based on the enemy being a idiot and letting you take full advantage of 4 OC's | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
I have not been able to continue to amass marines AND grab an expo/nat before 5 min, until this build came out. I've been able to get 4 BC AND 20+ marines by 15min consistently. 4 OCs is the critical mass to get the insane income to fund depots, marines, upgrades AND grab a THIRD expo before 15min on B.Sands. Having 4 OCs also make it ridiculously easy to pump out 20 SCVs in one go. Edit: Love the fact I can now safely hide the 4 Starports churning out the critical mass of BCs in the back while I keep pressure on Z by trading armies with near continuous waves of marines. | ||
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chickensnack
United States21 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:20 PhiliBiRD wrote: im sorry but i dotn see how a heavy aggresisve player wouldnt smash this. by th etime u have 4 CC's your unit count will be soo low u wont have a chance vs a strong 1 base play. even a aggressive 2 base zerg would run u over this is all based on the enemy being a idiot and letting you take full advantage of 4 OC's You obviously didn't read the OP. Early 2 rax pressure will stop most zerg from droning up and buy 35s of critical time for the CCs to finish morphing into OCs. Care demonstrate how you'll be able to push back the opening 5 marines + SCVs AND destroy 1 rax before the next wave of marine/marauders are ready to push out again? | ||
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
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Teddyjex
Canada35 Posts
I havent had a chance to view the ones Senorcuidado posted yet, but we need more replays to scrutinize before we can call this ridiculously effective sounding build ridiculously effective! Looking forward to it. | ||
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