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On December 07 2010 03:20 PhiliBiRD wrote:
im sorry but i dotn see how a heavy aggresisve player wouldnt smash this. by th etime u have 4 CC's your unit count will be soo low u wont have a chance vs a strong 1 base play. even a aggressive 2 base zerg would run u over
this is all based on the enemy being a idiot and letting you take full advantage of 4 OC's
This build takes advantage of the fact that there are currently 2 other builds with identical openings visible from the ramp, 2 Rax aggro and 2 Rax FE... simply put, since this build is presently very new, a lot of the zerg players scout the ramp, see 2 Rax + the first OC and then assume it's a 2 Rax FE build and go for their own expansion and try to econ up since that's a standard response to 2 Rax FE.
By the time they try to scout with OL sac, there are usually enough marines around to kill the Ovie before it sees the Third or Fourth OC which is the information this build most desires to keep a secret, like how 2 Rax FE tries its best to hide their tech buildings... so essentially these Zerg are forced into playing a blind game with only the knowledge that it may be 2 Rax FE into a tech play, or it could be 4 OC Mass MM or Pure Marine. There is a lot of uncertainty a Zerg player has to dispell in order to play effectively against it. The initial pressure creates this uncertainty because what happens if they call it wrong and go with a build designed to timing push against 4 OC when it turns out it is a 2 Rax All-In or a 2 Rax FE into Siege Tech? Very bad things end up happening.
It's more or less like calling 2 Rax All-In a bad build because its easy to auto-win against with 1 Base Roaches or Sling/Bling, or 2 Base Sling/Bling with larva spent on units instead of drones to complete saturation of the minerals... something the 4 OC build btw, seems to deal with very well by forcing the zerg to spend itself into the gutter while sniping the third constantly.
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Any unit comp that comes off this build will be inherently mineral-heavy, since mules power mins but not gas. That is, it will have to be marine heavy (or hellion heavy I suppose).
I wonder how a 3 base infestor/bling/roach build would work against this? Even the mech variant would not be as gas-heavy as a normal mech army so your tank count should be relatively low.
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On December 07 2010 05:48 farseerdk wrote:
Any unit comp that comes off this build will be inherently mineral-heavy, since mules power mins but not gas. That is, it will have to be marine heavy (or hellion heavy I suppose).
I wonder how a 3 base infestor/bling/roach build would work against this? Even the mech variant would not be as gas-heavy as a normal mech army so your tank count should be relatively low.
One thing I suggested earlier is floating the third OC to an island or rocked off expansion, then build 2 refineries to run off 3 base gas while abusing mules to keep Marines pumping out at about the expected rate so you can then start to tech. One preliminary test I made had me at 650 Gas/Min by 10:00, at which point I was able to start pumping Thors out of 3 Factories with Infantry 2/2 researching and Vehicle 1/1 starting... along with the 250 MM Cannons finished.
I'm a noob so I'm certain someone with better micro and macro could cut a minute or two off the timing without sacrificing much economy or marine production.
And yes... there were still tons of Marines, lol.
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Tried this a few times in the past week, very strong build if playing against a passive opponent. I modified it to going for a risky gold third or even second if open to increase this mineral income, and attacking before maxed (I usually try to move out around 140 to trade armies, trading armies earlier to dissuade the opponent from going too much econ). One thing I noticed was that this strategy is ineffective against turtling terrans who take a fast expansion then defend with marine tank. A seige line means I cant trade armies, but there are ways to get around this. In 2v2, you can take your partner's natural for more secure income, but loses out to early double rush aggression.
One mistake I make frequently with this strategy is that I dont build as many SCVs, just because I'm using all the minerals to throw down more raxes or just spamming marine marauder. Overall, high potential for this strat, very interested to see what other people can evolve this to.
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mules are really good (people have whined about them since the beta). abusing them is even better. shocking.
enjoy this while it lasts boys.
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On December 07 2010 02:19 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 23:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 06 2010 15:46 iEchoic wrote:
I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel. Infestor rush pwns mass marines.Wow, well played. Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG TBH I think you should've just used 2-3 bunkers to wall-off as opposed to raxes to wall off, you would have saved a lot more marines from FG/infested terrans, since you can't FG bunkers. Because he was 1basing, he also definitely did not have the gas to both mass infestor AND get a sizeable bling force to break the bunkers. You would have bought more than enough time to tech to medivacs. Zerg was 1-basing it for SOO long. I wouldn't call infestor rush a counter a counter.
I was expecting either a bling bust or 1base muta more than mass infestor. 3 bunkers would be worse against those two than a solid wall (because that's 3 turrets I could have built). I could have spread my marines out in the future, it was just so unexpected.
On the other hand, I never could have moved out without getting decimated by fungals at any point in the game, even if I didn't lose my marines. That's why I think tanks are sort of essential because locking into bio is dangerous when you forfeit early-mid-game aggression by making 4 OCs. I like tank + bio much more than pure bio partially because of weird strats like this.
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On December 07 2010 05:30 Teddyjex wrote:
lets get more replays please!
I havent had a chance to view the ones Senorcuidado posted yet, but we need more replays to scrutinize before we can call this ridiculously effective sounding build ridiculously effective!
Looking forward to it.
Same! In particular I'm looking for tvt and pvt since I'm trying to work on builds for those matchups. I haven't lost a single tvz matchup yet, even when I get successfully baneling busted/scv wiped out by fast muta/nydus in base, but I'm trying to figure out how to stabilize the build for the other matchups and would love others approaches to it. Atm vs t I end up getting risky victories based on trickery as opposed to a solid build in the early game.
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I would love to upload some solid TvZ at the 2500 rating, but currently all zergs (that I meet) are either 6 pooling, 1 baseing or dying to 2 rax pressure..
EDIT: And now there is maintenance, because of some stupid expansion release, I do not know why they even bother. My starcraft 2 is crashing at startup now -.-.
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On December 07 2010 08:32 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 02:19 Griffith` wrote:On December 06 2010 23:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 06 2010 15:46 iEchoic wrote:
I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel. Infestor rush pwns mass marines.Wow, well played. Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG TBH I think you should've just used 2-3 bunkers to wall-off as opposed to raxes to wall off, you would have saved a lot more marines from FG/infested terrans, since you can't FG bunkers. Because he was 1basing, he also definitely did not have the gas to both mass infestor AND get a sizeable bling force to break the bunkers. You would have bought more than enough time to tech to medivacs. Zerg was 1-basing it for SOO long. I wouldn't call infestor rush a counter a counter. I was expecting either a bling bust or 1base muta more than mass infestor. 3 bunkers would be worse against those two than a solid wall (because that's 3 turrets I could have built). I could have spread my marines out in the future, it was just so unexpected. On the other hand, I never could have moved out without getting decimated by fungals at any point in the game, even if I didn't lose my marines. That's why I think tanks are sort of essential because locking into bio is dangerous when you forfeit early-mid-game aggression by making 4 OCs. I like tank + bio much more than pure bio partially because of weird strats like this.
Yeah, good Infestor use is impossible to deal with without tanks. You can try banshees but Tanks are the most reliable.
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I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
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On December 07 2010 10:30 Griffith` wrote:
I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
Do you get the 250 cannon upgrade?
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On December 07 2010 10:33 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:30 Griffith` wrote:
I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through. Do you get the 250 cannon upgrade?
Its optional (IE. You have time/room for it) If your goal is to base raid/deny expos, it is quite useful.
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On December 07 2010 10:30 Griffith` wrote:
I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
Yeah, Thors are definitely good resource sink units and the fact that the armory gets you faster upgrades is great as well. Enjoy it while it lasts though, I think that competent Zergs will figure this out eventually. 
Speaking of which, any of your Zergies begin trying to deal with this? :DDDD
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Well I used this 4OC build, and I am a 100 point platnium player and I destroyed a 1.9k Diamond Zerg with it. Although there were times when he could of beaten me. (this was the first time I used 4OC on ladder) This build works even better on maps that allow for an easy 3rd expansion. I love spamming those MULEs and just getting a tonne of minerals. But the constant production or Marines and Marauders is really awesome!
I did make a few mistakes with the build the first time I used it but it has brought me much success (I tried again later with a 2.3k Zerg, I gave him a run for his money but he just came out on top in the end. I should of shut down his constant baneling attack a lot earlier but I just didn't think)
So far I am pretty happy with this build. Well done Griffith` you have developed a pretty awesome build.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/113393-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station
Thats against a team mate sitting around 1600 Z
I've been having moderate success with the build, its very beneficial late game I find especially if your able to take expansions when you attack. I usually don't wait for the 200/200; however, even if I attack when we have the same PSI I am able to bring in re-enforcements a lot faster then most of my opponents.
PS - Love this build and its awesome against macro Z players in mid-late game. Early harass with marines allows you the time to either take 2nd expo early with OC+Bunker or get more Rax's up. Very impressed with the creativity, keep it up man.
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I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. EDIT: didn't realize infestor nerf has been revered - sigh.
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy.
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On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote:
I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build
So how many Zerg players inadvertently suicided whole packs of Mutas thinking it a Stimmed Marine drop? Lol.
This is such a fun build to watch the replays for I'll admit. I want to see some of the 3 Thorship Snipes in the replays.
Hehe, somehow watching others use this new MMM (Make More Marines) as a viable solution for Colossi, Roaches, Ling/Bling, 4 Warpgate Rush, 5RR, 7RR, and various other Zerg builds and some protoss builds makes me laugh with glee... sorta like when I saw TLO beat a cannon contain using Nydus Worm + Drones and a queen.
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On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote:
I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy.
The infestor nerf has been reverted already.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174896
Medivacs can still unload while fungaled, but your Thors would probably die to mass speedlings.
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On December 07 2010 15:40 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote:
I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy. The infestor nerf has been reverted already. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174896Medivacs can still unload while fungaled, but your Thors would probably die to mass speedlings.
Thanks for pointing it out - so yes infestors will still be an issue.
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On December 07 2010 15:40 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote:
I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy. The infestor nerf has been reverted already. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174896Medivacs can still unload while fungaled, but your Thors would probably die to mass speedlings.
Will the speedlings get them before the hatch gets sniped? It takes what, 8 seconds to deal the damage and an additional 2 seconds before they can attempt to withdraw?
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EPT
