EPT[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 19
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
Possibly zerg could respond to the OCs by expanding + teching as well? As I understand it, pretty much all hive tech stomps the compositions you suggested. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:54 Griffith` wrote: It takes 6 seconds total (source: liquipedia), if unscouted, it will take at least 2 seconds to react, and 4 seconds for the speedlings to move there, and 4 seconds to kill the 3 thors. It's 8 seconds they have to do it in. It takes 2 seconds to enter it's barrage mode, then it starts dealing the damage for 6 seconds, at the end of which it takes 2 seconds to exit barrage mode. So the hatchery would be dead in about 8 seconds of the thors being dropped. The Ling's ability to kill the thors are severely hampered if the Thors are dropped in a tripod configuration reducing available surface area for the ling surround to be able to dps any one of them, or worst case scenario, they are dropped in amongst the minerals in a tight group allowing for the minerals to further reduce surface area for ling DPS. I imagine a 4th Dropship with 4 Hellions (Blue Flame or not) could be incorporated a little bit later into the match. If you are feeling particularly sadistic, you can even drop a one or two mules around your Thors to screw with the AI a little bit since they won't spawn repairing and thus will be ignored by the ling AI if they simply A-Move. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:03 Keilah wrote: somewhat off topic, but i faced some terrans doing similar things to me as protoss. I abused the fact that he couldn't possibly be teching fast enough to do anything about +range colossi, and killed him as soon as the upgrade finished. Just a note that this is _probably_ a bad idea vs protoss. Possibly zerg could respond to the OCs by expanding + teching as well? As I understand it, pretty much all hive tech stomps the compositions you suggested. They stomp the compositions, but from what I've been seeing in the replays, the unending stream of units simply forces the Zerg to spend themselves into the ground. With a little micro, Marines actually trade fairly favorably against Zerg Gas units with exception to Brood Lords, and if you see a lot of the replays, once 9 minute marker passes, the Marine or MM Spam forces the zerg to keep spending gas on units rather than tech just to keep alive. The biggest spending of gas that was more or less wasted that I've seen in the games has been the 8 or so Mutalisks you almost universally see in these replays, so that's probably the room for teching you are looking for since they have never paid for themselves through harassment due to the Turret spam. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 07 2010 16:14 Conrose wrote: They stomp the compositions, but from what I've been seeing in the replays, the unending stream of units simply forces the Zerg to spend themselves into the ground. With a little micro, Marines actually trade fairly favorably against Zerg Gas units with exception to Brood Lords, and if you see a lot of the replays, once 9 minute marker passes, the Marine or MM Spam forces the zerg to keep spending gas on units rather than tech just to keep alive. The biggest spending of gas that was more or less wasted that I've seen in the games has been the 8 or so Mutalisks you almost universally see in these replays, so that's probably the room for teching you are looking for since they have never paid for themselves through harassment due to the Turret spam. Likewise, after zerg loses their inital zergling/baneling composition, reinforcing groups of mm can use marauder slow on speed bane to nullify any effect while the upgraded marines can take them out before they can get in melee range. Since zerg can't produce enough zerglings to distract the a move groups of mm, banelings become useless. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
8x Contaminate could block in excess of 12 Marines under production, or delay the Orbitals transformation if it's an overseer you use to scout the base around 7-9 and spot the play. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:16 Conrose wrote: Now, an interesting possibility for a counter has come to mind. If one were to use the gas usually wasted on Mutas to instead make 8 or so Overseers, contaminate could create a window of opportunity for the zerg to rebuild their macro and push against the Terran, especially if energy was pooled beforehand. 8x Contaminate could block in excess of 12 Marines under production, or delay the Orbitals transformation if it's an overseer you use to scout the base around 7-9 and spot the play. 40 turrets stopping mutas isn't going to stop overseers? | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On December 03 2010 05:53 AnodyneSea wrote: the best way to counter this is ling/baneling into ling/baneling/infestor/muta Actually I would counter this by getting fast lair and using a similar hydra timing push as used against Protoss 4 gate. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't think anyone has answered this question straight up but what do you do against the 2 base baneling bust. You know the one that has the ability to kill your wall of raxes? The 2 base baneling bust requires at least 15 banelings for each rax. + any additional banelings for bunkers. Wall of with raxes and place marines behind them. The 2 base baneling strat would literally need to be an all-in to work. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't think anyone has answered this question straight up but what do you do against the 2 base baneling bust. You know the one that has the ability to kill your wall of raxes? You should be fine if you bunker up properly along with barracks/engineering bays. Even if they break through and can take out a number of SCVs(which you should use to assist the defense), you'll be able to recover quicker than they're able to recover their numbers. Just rebuild your wall, and be sure to expand with a solid wall for that. I had someone 2 base baneling bust and take out my expo cc, and the nice thing is you already have a replacement ready so it doesn't affect you too much, and just build another one as you replace it. Basically if they go for your army, you can replenish those units faster then they can, if they go for your mineral line, well again 4 ccs can replace those easily enough and mules are by nature temporary anyways.You just need to defeat the units that get in, if you can do that the damage they inflict is negligible. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
http://screplays.com/replays/thepplselbow/14126#comment-4307 ^mutas http://www.filedropper.com/good4orbitalreplay ^vs zling/sling contain on lost temple | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:35 Jermstuddog wrote: 40 turrets stopping mutas isn't going to stop overseers? Look again at the replays, you'll see where all the Turrets are. Here's a hint, they aren't near the Raxes. Not to mention they aren't up until after the OC's start to finish. It could be possible for an early Overseer to scout the build and Contaminate the Second CC while it's upgrading to OC. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
You know those "total conversion" maps Husky and others have been highlighting where you can use both sc1 and sc2 units? This build absolutely dominates. 10 reactor barracks pumping marine/medic with +1 range, shields and stim...it devours everything. super fun and creative build, I hope to see macro play like this become more standard! | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:28 Griffith` wrote: The 2 base baneling bust requires at least 15 banelings for each rax. + any additional banelings for bunkers. Wall of with raxes and place marines behind them. The 2 base baneling strat would literally need to be an all-in to work. It is an all-in but it works frequently vs 2 Rax walls by either taking down the depot(red herring since most people put their orbital behind it) or both Barracks with splash(because you can if you aim the blings well). The main weakness is that with a build that delays Raxes for CCs, by taking out the 2 Rax, you have no production left and you don't have tanks to help defend against the ensuing torrent of speedlings. | ||
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tournamentnow
Australia111 Posts
Make a bunker in front of rax and one behind rax. When i do this strat i usually make multiple bunkers and bunker creep up to the zerg natural with mass rax and OC. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On December 08 2010 13:39 tournamentnow wrote: Which is why you wall off at the bottom of the ramp. Don't get gas yet until you get at least 3 rax + bunker + 2 OC up. Make a bunker in front of rax and one behind rax. When i do this strat i usually make multiple bunkers and bunker creep up to the zerg natural with mass rax and OC. That's even worse because your builders are easier to pick off, lings have more surface area to screw with your buildings, Roaches get better concave on your dudes because you are stuck with a concave the size of the ramp, and its even easier to blow up both rax with baneling splash. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
1) not blindly drop 3 CCs down - start with expo first, then 3rd, then wait, scout and see 2) you can never have too many bunkers, in fact you can fake them out by not fully loading them with marines since then i have been laying down at least 4 bunkers if i scout a sizeable unit mass or banelings...sometimes 6. I stagger them at the nat and only fully fill the ones in the back. enjoy wasting 18 banelings on bunkers with 1-2 marines in them. that's enough disincentive to hold the bumrush, then the 4th OC goes down. once i take the island/rock expo my stream of marines are going to eventually take those bling numbers down. never lost since. | ||
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tournamentnow
Australia111 Posts
if you want to have a strong economy, dont get gas trust me if you know opponent all in banelings/etc. all you really need is just enough bunkers . | ||
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