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+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2010 11:46 Aeruthus wrote:I think it's more along the lines of "It's hard to get good players nowadays". Being 2400 barely means anything at all, people can grind their way to 2400, people can get lucky and get to 2400, people can be in an easy league and get to 2400. There's so many ways to get high up in Diamond without actually being that great, and a major reason you can do that now is because there are so many bad players playing. SC1 was the same way in the beginning, there were terrible players everywhere making it so people who many good players deemed terrible could still beat over 50% of the population. It happens with any system, if at 2,000 players being Diamond meant you were skilled at 4,000 players it could mean you are most likely skilled and at 6,000 players it could mean you are bad but because of the amount of people you are above average and therefore are placed in Diamond.
I am not sure what you are trying to say exactly ? That 2400 doesn't mean anything and that all below most certainly most be bad players? And that "good" players are what? Only the Top 200?
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On December 05 2010 12:06 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 11:46 Griffith` wrote:On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ? How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay? On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim. How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes. This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Excuse me.. but..
What the hell is economic cheese?
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On December 05 2010 12:18 Cryosin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:06 Saechiis wrote:On December 05 2010 11:46 Griffith` wrote:On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ? How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay? On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim. How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes. This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways). Excuse me.. but.. What the hell is economic cheese?
Usually hidden expo. Basicly doing something that will give you an eco advantage but will make you lose if scouted.
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On December 05 2010 12:18 Cryosin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:06 Saechiis wrote:On December 05 2010 11:46 Griffith` wrote:On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ? How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay? On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim. How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes. This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways). Excuse me.. but.. What the hell is economic cheese?
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead
Relying on your build not being scouted for it to be effective.
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TERRAN! ima go try this cuz all i can do right now is 2 rax bunker rush!
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On December 05 2010 12:06 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 11:46 Griffith` wrote:On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote:
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ? How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay? On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote:
This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim. How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes. This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Look you gotta be more specific. This build is NOT dimaga or 1base bustable nor does 5RR/7RR work. I've tested it at least 10 times now with 2k+ zergs. Which particular "early aggression" are you talking about?
EDIT: It NEEDs to be scouted at the right time, the window of opportunity is really quite small (1 minute or so, tops), even then its by no means a gimme for the zerg and probably works about only 50% of the time.
EDIT2: For all those people bashing 2k+ zergs and calling them bads, post your own ID/Points/League to back up your criticisms else STFU.
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Think next time I play aganist zerg, I'll go ahead and tell them, that I am making 3 inbase OC, and see what kind of damage they can do with that infomation.
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Interesting but the Jungle Basin game was quite poor on the zerg's part. And the terran's macro was quite off as well, floating 2000 mins, rax not pumping during non-action. Will watch another.
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This build is both hilarious and enjoyable :D
I tried a few small variants of it vs a toss friend [Granted, very low ranked toss friend] with some good results, for that matter
On a nit-picky note, you have a small typo in your write up
":: Feel free to push earlier if you want, (I know thread title says its a 200 food push, but realistically, but after some feedback from TLers, if the zerg starts to mass expand and provided you have the apm/macro/micro, you can and should push much more aggressively and early)
"
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On December 05 2010 12:39 Bixs wrote:
Think next time I play aganist zerg, I'll go ahead and tell them, that I am making 3 inbase OC, and see what kind of damage they can do with that infomation.
lol i think he dont take you serious if you gonna tell him
anyway...
1950 terran here
i saw 2 of the reps does it work only on that jungel bashin map ?
about the built
its scary once you have all the time 4 intead of 1 mule
and it has still room for improvements like fast 3/3 uppgrade for MM
or figure out the right number of rax
its funny to outmacro a zerg because have 4 mule all the time
the good thing about this cheese you cant scout a terran properly
if you not have something like overseeher of something
i think most of the zerg doing nothing and expand intead
anyway thx for this built looks interresting
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fuck the haters griffith i think you are a genius
this build is the future of tvz
but i agree with what someone else said that going 3 oc is better and actually using that 3rd oc to take a third as you move out
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his build will do my TVZ what iechoic's hellion drop did for my TVP, ty very much for this.
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lmfaoooo i just started doing this.. like 6-0 in ladder lolll, i just mass barracks and then upgrade marines, i dont transition into anything, at 40 i ebay for upgrades and double tech lab for stim/combat shield and then just throw marines at them while mule mining from any base lol.
Feel bad for everyone else.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112611-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
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After seeing this build a lot. Infestors/ling/bane wrecks it hard. A constant stream of units would be more useful but an attack at the 13 minute is just suicide of the army against infestors
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On December 05 2010 14:21 gcoin wrote:lmfaoooo i just started doing this.. like 6-0 in ladder lolll, i just mass barracks and then upgrade marines, i dont transition into anything, at 40 i ebay for upgrades and double tech lab for stim/combat shield and then just throw marines at them while mule mining from any base lol. Feel bad for everyone else. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112611-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
Okay... Now that was just wrong on so many levels.
BTW, would love to see a replay of 4OC vs 4OC for shits and giggles.
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After seeing this build a lot. Infestors/ling/bane wrecks it hard. A constant stream of units would be more useful but an attack at the 13 minute is just suicide of the army against infestors
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On December 05 2010 12:15 Bixs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2010 11:46 Aeruthus wrote:I think it's more along the lines of "It's hard to get good players nowadays". Being 2400 barely means anything at all, people can grind their way to 2400, people can get lucky and get to 2400, people can be in an easy league and get to 2400. There's so many ways to get high up in Diamond without actually being that great, and a major reason you can do that now is because there are so many bad players playing. SC1 was the same way in the beginning, there were terrible players everywhere making it so people who many good players deemed terrible could still beat over 50% of the population. It happens with any system, if at 2,000 players being Diamond meant you were skilled at 4,000 players it could mean you are most likely skilled and at 6,000 players it could mean you are bad but because of the amount of people you are above average and therefore are placed in Diamond. I am not sure what you are trying to say exactly ? That 2400 doesn't mean anything and that all below most certainly most be bad players? And that "good" players are what? Only the Top 200?
I'm saying that you can't really judge someone's actual skill level based on their league and rank. Maybe after they add the Master league there will be a large enough space that only skilled players can make it into the Master league. But yes, as of right now being 2400 doesn't mean anything because of over saturation of the leagues.
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I actually started doing this on 4v4s for fun, except actually taking 4 expos. If my 3 teammates keep me alive, it's actually very easy to 1v4 the entire other team. The production capabilities are just sickening.
However, here's some problems I see in solo:
1) The entire discussion is based on the assumption that you're playing against a standard zerg build. Usually some kind of 14-hatch into normal 2-base zerg stuff. However, if you're doing a balls-to-the-wall economic powering strat, why can't they? There's no reason a zerg player couldn't take a 3rd or 4th hatchery as soon as they scout it and fight off your push (or know ahead of time if you try to use it as a standard build). In this situation, they could actually out-macro you on 2 bases (when the gas income is taken into consideration).
2) Well-executed sling/bling contains are going to be hard to beat. They can't bust you if you play it right, but they can surely prevent you from taking your second with adequate pressure and then contain you (Kyrix aggression style). 4ocs on one mineral line is not going to pay off any time soon.
That's not to say this is worthless, but that like most TvZ builds at the moment, it basically relies on deception and hoping your opponent is unaware of what you're doing.
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13-14 Minute Push (12:30 provided you have perfect macro):
You should have a 200/200 Marine Marauder food army, with stim, with combat shields, and with 1/1 upgrades just about to finish.
[/b]
Z here. Thanks to you, I just shitted in my pants. xP
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EPT
