EPT5 Zealot 8 Stalker rush - Page 6
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ElvisWayCool
United States437 Posts
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AdrenalGBR
United Kingdom182 Posts
I can't see this being at all popular and I won't be using it until I see some means of reliably beating a 4-gate or 3-gate Blink with a Sentry or two. Knock yourselves out! | ||
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Tin_Foil
United States243 Posts
Against sentries at 5:30 the most I've seen is 2 sentries, which couldn't hold out long enough to defend this build. Between 530 and 615-630 when this build hits I can normally can chrono 2-3, if not all gates, giving me 2 rounds. That would give this build around 9 stalkers and 5 zealots by 630, if not a bit sooner. The build uses 10 gate, 12 gas to build up gas for stalkers so you don't need the 2nd gas. Also, this build seems pretty popular on the NA servers already. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:52 Gecko wrote: Both you and people who 4gate every game are making the same mistake. your playing under imaginary rules that say you have to play a certain way. Maybe long macro games are better on some maps and MUs and aggressive playstyles are better on some maps and MUs. Saying that something is stupid and you should never ever do it because it makes you bad is just silly if it works. Starcraft II is a game that has not been figured out. Pigeonholing yourself to only playing a certain way instead of trying new things and learning from them is no way to learn the game. I dislike players that play the same style every game equally. Probably more if they stay on 1 base since it requires less skill. I'm not saying you should never 4 gate. Heck on maps like SoW and Blistering you'd probably be stupid not to. However, I also think it is fallacious to 4 gate every single game just because you don't know any other playstyle. IdrA sometimes makes me facepalm because he blindly classes agression as non-worthy of his holy macro-zerg style. He even called Kyrix' 2 base baneling bust 'retarded'. This lack of game sense and openness to strategy will seemingly forever keep him from being the gosu he so desires to be, Kyrix went through G-Star without dropping a game. He said himself that when he scouted economic builds, he decided for timing attacks (Something P and T seemingly figured out 4 months ago). They were very well executed and you could see how much trouble his opponents had even though they were familiar with his playstyle. I love strategic diversity, my original post in this thread only related to how easy it is to memorize 1 build order as Protoss and consistently win against better players. I've started to incorporate 2 base aggression into my Z style and it has opened my eyes to a whole array of new possibilities and how they change the flow of specific match-ups and I have to thank Foxer and Kyrix for that. | ||
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aruno222
New Zealand20 Posts
No way could I go for a 14 gateway in PvP on SEA server. Hello 10-12 double gate zealot push? | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:21 painprophet wrote: I think you make a very good point, I am also in favor of 10gate opener. Still I want to try this build vs terran. What has your success being using 10gate opener against those that 4 Gate (im assuming who go 13 Gate followed by 3 other Gates)? In PvP, if I see the opponent go 13 Gate 17 Core, I guess they are going the tech way (e.g. 2 Gate Robo or something) and then I go 13 Gate 15 Gate (then maybe at 20 go Gate x2) to try and take advantage of their slow start?? Usually ends up I have 3-4 zealots in their base doing some damage but nearly not enough as they just build 4 Gates as well and eventually fight me back. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Capitalist world, and what's the best way to be a capitalist? Invest,risk and get money! I see your 15 nexus and raise you double expand, because what comes around goes around! Some other parts of the world: - fight for survival = kill him early so I can take all his food | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On November 24 2010 08:34 aruno wrote: Man you guys on the NA servers really can just mess around in your leagues. No way could I go for a 14 gateway in PvP on SEA server. Hello 10-12 double gate zealot push? Unless its proxied or on a massive map you can scout that before 14, and if its a massive map you can defend it with a 14. | ||
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AdrenalGBR
United Kingdom182 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
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Genovi
Sweden388 Posts
Noticed this too; cutting only 1 round of reinforcements nets you 400+ mins easily, since 16 probes is pretty good saturation for one base. Not quite no skill, just micro heavy. In fact, most of these protoss early all-ins require micro to make or break it (get zealots to the front, focus fire down key targets asap like sentries or enemy stalkers while avoiding as much damage as possible, etc) | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
This build is rather poor because it just has some key weaknesses: - it doesnt scout and has a 14 gate + a slight pylon block when the first gate finishes. Also spends 3 chrono on nexus. This combined makes it an automatic loss against some cheeses. - it produces the first stalker quite late, so this build is terribly easy to scout. 4 gate's are not hard to stop but part of their power lies in not letting the opponent know too quickly what you are doing. If you telegraph a 4 gate strat right away it is just painfully easy to stop on most maps. Fast sentry into a tech build (for example DT) sweeps the floor with this kind of stuff if you don't scare the scout away. Getting 3 gates before you even make a stalker while on 1 gas with stocked chronoboost (or using it on warpgate tech) tells what you are doing right away, a normal 4 gate is at least somewhat concealed as that kills the scout quickly (and thus could just be a delayed 2 gas build or even a FE). - The build doesn't really work out as well as the build order optimalizer puts it. For example you need to proxy a pylon if you want to be aggresive, also including a zealot as one of the last units you make before warpgate sucks as it has too much travel time. Nevertheless, a 3 gate rush while making lots of units before you get warpgate CAN provide much stronger rushes then the classic 4 gates (ie make 2-3 units and then warp in 4). It's only good at maps where 4 gates are notoriously hard to stop though, in fact I only think a strat like this is a good at scrap station. The entire thing about PvP is in hiding your build and hoping you do a build that is well against theirs (or use a versatile one like blink stalkers / 3 gate robo). Making directly clear what you intent to do just sucks, especially if it is as all-in like this build, since with so few probes and only 3 gates this build NEEDS to do damage quick whereas a regular 4 gate can easily adopt still. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 24 2010 08:22 ChickenLips wrote:Probably more if they stay on 1 base since it requires less skill. Whether or not that's true, the only skills that are relevant are ones that lead to victories. Someone who wins with 1 base play has more skill where it counts than someone who loses with 2+ base play. To be honest, I think successful one base play requires greater skill, because of the demands it places on you to quickly find a way to negate the advantage of someone threatening two base play. It's a lot easier to simply macro up with your opponent to maintain parity. However, I also think it is fallacious to 4 gate every single game just because you don't know any other playstyle. If the meaning of this comment is "you should occasionally take some time away from honing your main strategy to do research and development into other ones", then I would agree with you. Is that really what you really meant, though? I love strategic diversity, my original post in this thread only related to how easy it is to memorize 1 build order as Protoss and consistently win against better players. I reiterate my first sentence. | ||
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aghull
46 Posts
On November 24 2010 09:33 bankai wrote: What has your success being using 10gate opener against those that 4 Gate (im assuming who go 13 Gate followed by 3 other Gates)? In PvP, if I see the opponent go 13 Gate 17 Core, I guess they are going the tech way (e.g. 2 Gate Robo or something) and then I go 13 Gate 15 Gate (then maybe at 20 go Gate x2) to try and take advantage of their slow start?? Usually ends up I have 3-4 zealots in their base doing some damage but nearly not enough as they just build 4 Gates as well and eventually fight me back. I'd say 60%. It's pretty even and comes down to how well they defend the push (chrono stalker and not over-reacting with probe defense) and then it's often just who gets the better 4 gate. His warpgates will finish sooner but if you did enough eco damage and didn't lose *all* your initial zealots, you will still be in a better spot if you can hold till yours come up. I still prefer taking my chances with 10-12 gate. Against less experienced protoss on 4gate builds it can end the game right there, although that is certainly never my realistic goal. It's just meant to dent the eco enough to get them off their build. | ||
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antas
Indonesia300 Posts
On November 23 2010 21:09 goldenwitch wrote: Unfortunately for everyone on ladder, it appears to be terribly terribly possible. At 6:13 seconds you have, 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core and 24 Probes 5 Zealots 8 Stalkers. ... Kzn with 5 zealots 7 stalkers at 6:27 screeny + Show Spoiler + Blink` with 5 zealots 8 stalkers and 22 probes at 6:25 replay vs AI! + Show Spoiler + That's really crazy, My blink stalkers build only got 5 stalkers at 6, by 6.30 probably I got 8 if I optimized my built a bit more. Even if I blink like crazy there is no way I can hold this 5 zealot + 7/8/9 stalkers. I would like to see a replay of it, and see if I can optimized my own built even more. I'm curious to know what other people normally get at 6' and what built that's used .. | ||
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
other benchmarks - At 5:30 you should be scouting for a roach rush if you FE'd as toss in pvz. At 5:30 the 2 marines 1 marauder timing poke is halfway to your base on most maps. At 7:00, if you suspect DTs you should have detection started. At 8:30, you should be prepared for mutas if you haven't pressured zerg at all. Hope that helps put this in perspective <3 | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
I don't particularly like all-ins so I've tried to expand behind it every time. Works wonders. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:58 Terrence wrote: This is what makes me angry with Team Liquid. People like you find extremely all-in builds and spread them to the masses; thanks for ruining PvP for the next 2 weeks. PvP is already a mess its just colossus as much as people hate all-ins and 4 gate it is without question the basic build for Protoss its not going anywhere. I think looking at these kinds of builds as more of a building block is something very constructive to look at example the different timings in going 3 gate placing gas at 15 and pylon at 15 instead of the normal 14 maybe allows other people to experiment with other openers to find more interesting ideas. Maybe someone experiments say a more macro orientated toss finds different timing + pressure to allow for safe expands. I think people should have more of a open mind when it comes to builds allin or not its not like someone can't reasonably take this build test and tweak and find something more macro suited. Its 5 zealots and 7 stalkers on 3 gates there is nothing stopping anyone from cutting out 1 zealot and 1 stalker. To have an extra 4 probes(so your at 26 instead of 22 using blinks version) and expanding at 30 food or so. Giving you even more units and gates to deal with early pressure in say PvT similar to kcdc fe. I just pulled that off top of my head. Just don't go omg allin build and totally disregard it as terrible without thinking of its potential. | ||
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Barook
Germany143 Posts
On November 25 2010 01:12 oZii wrote: Its 5 zealots and 7 stalkers on 3 gates there is nothing stopping anyone from cutting out 1 zealot and 1 stalker. To have an extra 4 probes(so your at 26 instead of 22 using blinks version) and expanding at 30 food or so. Giving you even more units and gates to deal with early pressure in say PvT similar to kcdc fe. I just pulled that off top of my head. Just don't go omg allin build and totally disregard it as terrible without thinking of its potential. You probably mean something like this: + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:33.85: 174M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 1:37.08: 150M 0G 3E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway 1:45.19: 64M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe 1:52.11: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator 1:59.19: 63M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe 2:08.12: 100M 0G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon 2:15.33: 67M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 2:15.90: 72M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe 2:22.11: 85M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas 2:27.24: 135M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe 2:40.19: 221M 13G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe 2:42.08: 191M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core 2:42.08: 41M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas 2:57.19: 194M 35G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe 3:14.19: 333M 59G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe 3:14.19: 283M 59G 33E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas 3:24.78: 400M 79G 39E 20/ 26S - Build Nexus 3:31.19: 68M 91G 43E 20/ 26S - Build Probe 3:32.08: 27M 93G 43E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 3:34.20: 50M 97G 19E 21/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation 3:47.59: 150M 72G 27E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:00.68: 150M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:00.68: 0M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 4:04.93: 50M 105G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Probe 4:13.30: 100M 121G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon 4:21.93: 102M 138G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Probe 4:28.67: 137M 150G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 4:29.71: 150M 152G 1E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:38.93: 114M 170G 6E 23/ 34S - Build Probe 4:43.60: 125M 179G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker 4:55.93: 166M 152G 15E 26/ 34S - Build Probe 4:56.59: 125M 153G 16E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker 5:04.78: 112M 119G 20E 29/ 44S - Build Probe 5:07.35: 100M 124G 22E 30/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:12.93: 83M 135G 25E 32/ 44S - Build Probe 5:21.78: 171M 151G 30E 33/ 44S - Build Probe 5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Chrono Gateway 5:35.60: 349M 178G 13E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Build Stalker 5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Pylon 5:45.60: 300M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:45.60: 200M 147G 18E 38/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:49.22: 162M 153G 20E 40/ 44S - Chrono Gateway 5:53.47: 235M 162G 23E 40/ 44S - Build Zealot 6:10.76: 442M 194G 32E 42/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 368M 150G 34E 44/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 243M 100G 34E 46/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:13.97: 125M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas 6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas Waypoint 1 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1071M 114G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals Waypoint 2 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1110M 84G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation But that's just something I quickly threw together - feel free to optimize the probe and unit count with additional waypoints. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 25 2010 02:23 Barook wrote: You probably mean something like this: + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:33.85: 174M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 1:37.08: 150M 0G 3E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway 1:45.19: 64M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe 1:52.11: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator 1:59.19: 63M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe 2:08.12: 100M 0G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon 2:15.33: 67M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 2:15.90: 72M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe 2:22.11: 85M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas 2:27.24: 135M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe 2:40.19: 221M 13G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe 2:42.08: 191M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core 2:42.08: 41M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas 2:57.19: 194M 35G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe 3:14.19: 333M 59G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe 3:14.19: 283M 59G 33E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas 3:24.78: 400M 79G 39E 20/ 26S - Build Nexus 3:31.19: 68M 91G 43E 20/ 26S - Build Probe 3:32.08: 27M 93G 43E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 3:34.20: 50M 97G 19E 21/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation 3:47.59: 150M 72G 27E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:00.68: 150M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:00.68: 0M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 4:04.93: 50M 105G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Probe 4:13.30: 100M 121G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon 4:21.93: 102M 138G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Probe 4:28.67: 137M 150G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 4:29.71: 150M 152G 1E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:38.93: 114M 170G 6E 23/ 34S - Build Probe 4:43.60: 125M 179G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker 4:55.93: 166M 152G 15E 26/ 34S - Build Probe 4:56.59: 125M 153G 16E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker 5:04.78: 112M 119G 20E 29/ 44S - Build Probe 5:07.35: 100M 124G 22E 30/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:12.93: 83M 135G 25E 32/ 44S - Build Probe 5:21.78: 171M 151G 30E 33/ 44S - Build Probe 5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Chrono Gateway 5:35.60: 349M 178G 13E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Build Stalker 5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Pylon 5:45.60: 300M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:45.60: 200M 147G 18E 38/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:49.22: 162M 153G 20E 40/ 44S - Chrono Gateway 5:53.47: 235M 162G 23E 40/ 44S - Build Zealot 6:10.76: 442M 194G 32E 42/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 368M 150G 34E 44/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 243M 100G 34E 46/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:13.97: 125M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas 6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas Waypoint 1 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1071M 114G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals Waypoint 2 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1110M 84G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation But that's just something I quickly threw together - feel free to optimize the probe and unit count with additional waypoints. Exactly my point and that really wasn't so hard and its definitely macro oriented. At all and thanks I will be messing around with this. I havent actually gotten down how to use the Protoss Optimizer. | ||
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