EPT5 zealots 8 stalkers at ~6:25 with 22 probes, probably coulda done better though
*vs AI, no scouting
5 Zealot 8 Stalker rush - Page 5
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Blink`
United States2 Posts
5 zealots 8 stalkers at ~6:25 with 22 probes, probably coulda done better though *vs AI, no scouting | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:19 escobari wrote: Well, when testing korean warp gate (with gas) fastest I got warpgate ready was 5:12, now add 2x warp-ins - minute later, you get 10 units. So if you delay warpgate little it adds up just normally. How many probes? I think that is what everyone is really focusing on as this has only 3 gates instead of 4. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:49 kzn wrote: Having actually tried this against another player now, I don't think this is what HuK is talking about. The build is so easily scouted, and if you just go 3gate yourself your ramp gives you enough of an advantage to hold. At best this is a decent rush to transition into a contain->expo with. I wonder how this would work in PvZ if its say a hatch first build maybe this would apply much more pressure earlier and allow you to expand to try and keep up without having to go cannon contain. | ||
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Barook
Germany143 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:34 Knickknack wrote: You can tell the program to send a scouting probe (and even if and when it returns or dies). It also takes into account things like taking a probe of the mineral line to warp in stuff with a time penality. It's pretty good in that regard.I'd challenge anyone to show an actual replay where they have 8stalker/5zealot around 6:15 with ~19probes instead of just saying the build optimizer says so. Do these programs even take into account things like the minerals lost from scout probe, probes off minerals to warp buildings? Plus they can add some odd factors such as make all zealots before any stalkers. From what I have seen of these build optimizers expect to add ~15seconds to a build like this. So in a real scenario expect 8stalker/5zealot ~6:30, and even slower when you factor in tiny inefficiencies that most will make. Point is, take the build optimizers as a guide to a build, not the final word. Still a strong timing attack, but not the absolute monster of a build one might be lead to believe. The main factor is going to be the human error because you can't build stuff like a machine. But that isn't the main purpose of the program. It's to figure out new builds - the execution and real timings are up to the player. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
NEXgenius vs TSLsSKS Both player's get units in similar numbers to the builds shown here but they instead have 4 gateways and 20 probes each. The attack comes just as warpgates finish at around 5:30, maybe HuK was just saying that koreans really know how to 4gate well : EDIT: i will add a description of the build, I will describe NEXgeniuses version because his warpgates came out faster. It is a standard 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas opener, BUT, probes are only chrono boosted twice and the rest is saved for warpgates. a zealot is made after the core and a stalker is made when the core and zealot finish. As the first stalker is finishing you make the other 3 gates. After the 3 gates a 2nd stalker is made. all of this is done while chrono boosting WG tech constantly.This gets out a 4gate attack at around the 5:30 second mark. Maybe HuK was using Hyperbole in that the koreans just have super efficient 4gate all ins. I have yet to see anyone 4gate this efficiently on the US server, maybe i ought to start! | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:36 Blink` wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108339-1v1-protoss-steppes-of-war 5 zealots 8 stalkers at ~6:25 with 22 probes, probably coulda done better though *vs AI, no scouting In looking at this replay against say in PvZ if your opponent is going with a 5 RR which should put the roaches at your base at 5:20-5:30 depending on map with this you have out 2 stalkers and 3 zealots either of those could be replaced by a sentry @ 5:30 you have another stalker about to pop and warpgate finishing. | ||
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pwnasaurus
Canada190 Posts
On November 24 2010 00:30 ChickenLips wrote: These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS Facepalm. I'd love to see you hit 2800 diamond with any race or any build. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Talho
Belgium592 Posts
edit : actually its 10s more for the immortal build. I guess that 10s make a lot of diff ? | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
I'm doubtful that Huk is having problems in the "I can't beat this" sense. It's more likely that he's trying some greedy economy build and the korean rush style requires him to change his plan more than he'd like. Also I am sure to bet that it isn't a push at x minutes. They probably do some clever harass with their first units then warp in 8 stalkers to kill you off. | ||
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
Game 1: DT rush and cannons held it ( this is his standard for steppes apparently) Game 2: 5 gate held it off on xel'naga cz of force feilds Game 3: on Xel'Naga again, force feilds held off until immos were out Game 4: on blistering Sentries held off until 2 VRs were out maybe i was executing this in correctly but it certainly seemed beatable, even laughable on small choked maps and lots of sentries with force feilds Also in game one my mate did the double stalker push but i managed to hold with just 2 zealots cz he miss micro'd | ||
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turbopasca1
Moldova41 Posts
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painprophet
Romania33 Posts
On November 24 2010 02:03 aghull wrote: This. Right now I always 10-gate PvP just to have the ability to ward off cheese OR put some early zealot pressure, especially on timing builds like this. While this build is very refined, there are surely near infinite builds for all races that sacrifice defense to peak at one specific time. (Zerg already know all about this.) Constant scouting and pressure are the only answers. It's true that the 11 gas, 14 gateway look like a tech build, but if I scout that, I don't think to myself "safe to 2-gate robo expand" - I think "ATTACK!" I don't want to see what cool tech you have in store. I prefer to prevent it. The fact that it's not a tech doesn't change the fact that it's a 14-gate with no early defense. You could have 3 zealots in their base around the time their first one pops if they don't alter their plans, which of course any reasonable player would be forced to do once you play your hand. I think you make a very good point, I am also in favor of 10gate opener. Still I want to try this build vs terran. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:09 Zacsafus wrote: just tried this out with a mate and it really didn't live up to its potential Game 1: DT rush and cannons held it ( this is his standard for steppes apparently) Game 2: 5 gate held it off on xel'naga cz of force feilds Game 3: on Xel'Naga again, force feilds held off until immos were out Game 4: on blistering Sentries held off until 2 VRs were out maybe i was executing this in correctly but it certainly seemed beatable, even laughable on small choked maps and lots of sentries with force feilds Also in game one my mate did the double stalker push but i managed to hold with just 2 zealots cz he miss micro'd Haha I thought it was just me but I have actually seen this quite a few times at mid-diamond. I'm not sure how this got popularized. They usually try to cannon rush you initially and if that fails they cannon up and rush DTs. The silly thing is if you successfully stop the cannon rush is you can just expand completely safe but it drags the game way longer for what is pretty much a guaranteed win for you unless you royally screw up. | ||
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DocHoliday
Germany25 Posts
And the biggest problem this build has is the lack of a stalker directly after zealot. This means the opponent can scout all 3 gates and react accordingly. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 24 2010 06:33 pwnasaurus wrote: Facepalm. I'd love to see you hit 2800 diamond with any race or any build. If I set aside 5 hours a day practicing my 4 gate I'm Why don't I do it? Because I actually want to learn how to play the game, I don't care about my rating and nothing bores me more than playing the exact same 1 base build every game. (As I did with P in beta) | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:29 ChickenLips wrote: If I set aside 5 hours a day practicing my 4 gate I'm Why don't I do it? Because I actually want to learn how to play the game, I don't care about my rating and nothing bores me more than playing the exact same 1 base build every game. (As I did with P in beta) Both you and people who 4gate every game are making the same mistake. your playing under imaginary rules that say you have to play a certain way. Maybe long macro games are better on some maps and MUs and aggressive playstyles are better on some maps and MUs. Saying that something is stupid and you should never ever do it because it makes you bad is just silly if it works. Starcraft II is a game that has not been figured out. Pigeonholing yourself to only playing a certain way instead of trying new things and learning from them is no way to learn the game. | ||
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