|
HuK was interviewed in the recent liquid weekly and he said this about the korean server.
How has the Korean ladder been? You predicted it would be more aggressive. Has this been true, and if so, how have you adapted to most of your opponents being like this?
Harder then I expected. Koreans really know how to all-in well and they do it very often and disguise it really well. PvP I've been wanting to kill myself lately - all they do is this sick timing attacks right when warpgates finish where they have like 19 probes and 5 zealot 8 stalkers... It's pretty ridiculous
So being the resourceful liquidian I am, I decided to use carbontwelve's build order optimizer to determine whether HuK was exaggerating or whether an all in that strong actually existed.
Unfortunately for everyone on ladder, it appears to be terribly terribly possible.
At 6:13 seconds you have, 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core and 24 Probes 5 Zealots 8 Stalkers.
To clarify: this is a warp gate attack that blows 4 gate pushes out of the water in immensity.
Here is barook's more optimal version
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 166M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.33: 166M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:17.65: 88M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 151M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:31.80: 131M 0G 9E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:35.83: 174M 3G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.80: 93M 8G 15E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:48.22: 100M 11G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Zealot
2:48.22: 0M 11G 18E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:59.80: 122M 28G 25E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:06.86: 150M 38G 29E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:16.80: 105M 52G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 160M 64G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:29.24: 150M 19G 42E 22/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:38.05: 100M 31G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:42.16: 50M 37G 49E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
3:42.16: 0M 37G 49E 25/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:50.66: 100M 53G 54E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:59.16: 95M 69G 58E 25/ 26S - Build Probe
3:59.16: 45M 69G 58E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:15.66: 247M 101G 43E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:16.16: 153M 102G 43E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:19.16: 140M 107G 45E 29/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:19.16: 140M 107G 20E 29/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:23.78: 100M 116G 22E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:34.24: 129M 136G 28E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.53: 75M 96G 31E 33/ 34S - Build Assimilator
4:53.66: 188M 123G 39E 33/ 42S - Build Stalker
4:53.66: 63M 73G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
4:57.16: 110M 80G 16E 35/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:00.12: 50M 85G 18E 37/ 42S - Build Probe
5:16.24: 217M 116G 27E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:16.82: 100M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:25.83: 105M 99G 32E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 226M 121G 43E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 101M 71G 43E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
6:04.90: 336M 139G 4E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 247M 100G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:08.04: 125M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:13.04: 62M 18G 9E 50/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
And here is a simplification by cyber_cheese to make it easier to remember -
+ Show Spoiler +3x starting nexus chrono
2x ccore chrono
rest on gate/warpgates production
gateways->warps asap (obviously)
9 Pylon
12 Gateway
15 Assimilator, one probe gas asap
15 Pylon
17 2x gas probes now total
17 Core
18 Zealot
20 Third gas probe
21 Gateway
22 Research Warp Gate
22 Gateway
22 Zealot
25 Move Probe To Gas (for some reason, looking through carbons thread, ignore this bad design choice, stay on 3 @ gas)
25 Pylon
26 Zealot
29 Zealot
31 Pylon
31 Stalker
33 Assimilator (Instantly fill it)
33 Stalker
35 Zealot
38 Stalker
40 Pylon
40 Stalker
42 Stalker
44 Stalker
46 Stalker
48 Stalker
The build orders that the computer comes up with are very much arbitrary, however they work very well if you can remember them and execute them properly.
I sure hope I don't run into anyone who reads this on ladder! Happy allining <3
Kzn with 5 zealots 7 stalkers at 6:27 screeny
+ Show Spoiler +
Blink` with 5 zealots 8 stalkers and 22 probes at 6:25 replay vs AI!
+ Show Spoiler +
edit - still interested in replays or screenshots, especially if they can beat the times posted
|
damn, protoss these days is really a pain, not necessary balance wise, but the matchups are just soooooo fucked up. and btw, this strat is nothing new, i´ve seen it several weeks ago and i´m also playing it. works hillariously well on scrap.
|
when i played pvp at 21-2200 its like bronze league all over again 4 gates and cannon rushing so dumb
|
"39 convert gates to gateways" Typo 
|
This is the 1 gas 4 warpgate that's insanely hard to stop. Don't know why its not popular anymore. Only solid counter I found with speedling/baneling as zerg, as roach/ling seems a bit slow to deal with it. (obviously only on maps you can't spine crawler defense.)
This one is slightly different for PVP you want more stalkers, but if you don't get 11 gas you can get a 4th warpgate.
|
Its not actually 4 warp gates, and this exact way of executing the build order results in almost twice as many units as any other attack by toss at the same time.
To clarify: this is a warp gate attack that blows 4 gate pushes out of the water in immensity.
You could look at a pro level 4 gate and compare the benchmarks to this to see exactly how much stronger (and all in) this is.
|
sth similiar to the foxer scv rine rush? looks kinda the same but protoss
|
I guess this would work on scrap, but any other map, wouldn't forcefield just tear this apart? Hold back the army and just power out units until you can handle the 19 probe buffer he sends with his army?
|
I never do all ins since I dont like the style very much but I may have to try this. Maybe it will get me off my losing streak.
So forgive me if these are obvious but does this necessitate you attacking with the 19 probes as well or are you placing a forward pylon when you attack... or is the 5 z 8 s just an overwhelming force in and of itself at 6:30? Wow just typing that out it sounds so powerful.
Do you even bother scouting or trying to mask what you're doing? Would love to see a replay.
|
This is bullshit, im not going to memorize a huge build order like that, Ill stick to getting an early gas and plenty of sentries
User was warned for this post
|
You don't have to bring the probes with to attack of course, you can just reinforce at a proxy pylon.
5 zealots 8 stalkers is roughly twice what a normal 4 gate has at this time in the game.
I think this build is actually safe against everything but early cheese like 2 gate proxy and cannon rush, so you will probably be fine just scouting around your base.
I don't think you need to hide what you are doing, its hidden well enough by the mixed messages it sends. For example if you scout 11 gas 14 gate what is going to be going through your head?. How about after scouting 2 gates before cyber? Whatever you are thinking, its probably not, "Better get a fast sentry."
|
Why doesn't the carbontwelve BO chrono's the warpgate research directly?
|
How does this fare against 16pool 14 hatch and std terran bio balls?
|
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon
11 gas
14 gateway
14 move 2 probes to gas
18 pylon
18 gateway
18 cybernetics core
18 gateway
18 move 1 probe to gas
18 zealot
21 start warp gate
21 zealot
23 pylon
23 zealot
25 stalker
27 stalker
29 stalker
31 pylon
31 zealot
33 stalker
35 stalker
37 pylon
37 zealot
39 convert gates to warp gates
39 stalker
41 stalker
43 stalker
-fin-
Can't be sure because I haven't tested it out, but I would imagine this build would get stomped by a double stalkers rush (12 gate 14 gas 15 gate&cyber)?
|
On November 23 2010 23:13 machination wrote:
How does this fare against 16pool 14 hatch and std terran bio balls?
Tried it against a friend (im 1800+) who did 14 hatch 13 pool, but also semi-prepared for it by making a few roaches + 1 spine crawler. It didn't end too well, if you could get a nice flank or the Zerg reacts too slow with his drone pulls you can definitely win, but he pulled drones straight away and won, 2 roaches on low + 4 lings left but he had no drones or money. This was on steppes too. Things were abit sloppy on my part though, could have proxied the 2nd pylon and pushed quicker (time the push to hit just as the stalkers were warping in).
Against Terran who don't wall in this looks like it can work really well.
|
hmm thats weird i dont think a 4 gate rush is that slow, normally u will have 3 units out as u morph your 4 gates, done at around 530, u get 1 cycle in, then u can possibly can squeeze in another cycle which should beat this build. That is however, a single gas 4 gate rush. I imagine a double gas variation will get stomped by this i guess
Inuitively, 14 gate seems a little slow, i would think a 4 gate 1 gas with heavy chronos on warp tech be able to squeeze much more units out, but ill need to do some testings
-Edit just tested it out on yabot
Did a very standard 4 gate rush
It starts with a gate core opener but i cut probes at 20, single gas, 4 chronoboosts on warp tech
had 2 stalkers 1 lot when i morphed my gates, all gates morphed at 5:40 and 1 cycle of 4 units warped in, which means i just need to hold out for 10ish secs for my next cycle to warp in and i am sure it will crack this, so i dont think thats the build huk is talking about.
And this is a pretty standard warp gate rush that most plat tosses can do, so i suspect the one huk might be talking about could involve some unit cuts early on, maybe even a 10 gate 14 core for faster warp tech and skimming on first or second unit for a quick drop. Not sure though, hope the man himself comes here and clarfiy on the build he is talking about, ill try a few more variations, though i really wouldnt want to cut the first stalker cos it can get a bit ugly if the toss pokes in early
|
|
|
I played around using this and it works surprisingly well against terran o_o
|
looks strong if not scouted ...
|
And here is simplification by me to make it easier to remember -
9 pylon
11 gas
14 gateway
14 move 2 probes to gas
18 pylon
18 gateway
18 cybernetics core
18 gateway
18 move 1 probe to gas
18 zealot
21 start warp gate
21 zealot
23 pylon
23 zealot
25 stalker
27 stalker
29 stalker
31 pylon
31 zealot
33 stalker
35 stalker
37 pylon
37 zealot
39 convert gates to warp gates
39 stalker
41 stalker
43 stalker
-fin-
at 18, is that adding an additional probe to gas for a total of 3? Or removing 1?
|
|
|
On November 23 2010 23:52 GreEny K wrote:
at 18, is that adding an additional probe to gas for a total of 3? Or removing 1?
That would have to be adding to get to 3 or else you would not have enough gas to make all those stalkers.
|
On November 23 2010 23:54 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 23:52 GreEny K wrote:
at 18, is that adding an additional probe to gas for a total of 3? Or removing 1? That would have to be adding to get to 3 or else you would not have enough gas to make all those stalkers.
On November 23 2010 23:53 Vathus wrote:
adding to get 3
Thanks
|
|
|
I'd like to see a replay or VOD
|
I've just won 5 games in a row on ladder with this
|
I don't like it when Koreans come up with all-in BO because then I have to learn how to deal with amazingness.
So frustrating.
So let me put on my theory crafting hat...5 Zealots 8 Stalkers...
That's pretty heavy stalker numbers, but I have a feeling 2 gate robo would be too slow to get units out. Maybe if you treated it like the MMM of terran from when the game was young, i.e. you FF ramp until you tech up sufficiently, maybe then 2 gate robo would work.
I don't see any reason why that couldn't work. In the 2 gate robo build you get a few sentries anyway, and I don't care if I annoy him with FF, as long as he doesn't kill me I'm happy.
So that could work actually. I know it is timing attack, but I feel that any purely ground based timing attack is stopped with FF at ramp pretty much consistently. It's all a matter of being aware of it right when you see units at your ramp, i.e. maybe get an early obs so no overreaction.
Or go the zealot archon mix, which was described in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170704 and seems to work well against timing attacks once you get the archons up.
As I said before this is all theory crafting, and I don't like the idea of just thinking of a BO win to this as some in thread are describing. In my theory crafting I like to think of ways of beating my opponent with good BO that can be used into the late game.
|
These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS
|
On November 24 2010 00:25 elkram wrote:I don't like it when Koreans come up with all-in BO because then I have to learn how to deal with amazingness. So frustrating. So let me put on my theory crafting hat...5 Zealots 8 Stalkers... That's pretty heavy stalker numbers, but I have a feeling 2 gate robo would be too slow to get units out. Maybe if you treated it like the MMM of terran from when the game was young, i.e. you FF ramp until you tech up sufficiently, maybe then 2 gate robo would work. I don't see any reason why that couldn't work. In the 2 gate robo build you get a few sentries anyway, and I don't care if I annoy him with FF, as long as he doesn't kill me I'm happy. So that could work actually. I know it is timing attack, but I feel that any purely ground based timing attack is stopped with FF at ramp pretty much consistently. It's all a matter of being aware of it right when you see units at your ramp, i.e. maybe get an early obs so no overreaction. Or go the zealot archon mix, which was described in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170704 and seems to work well against timing attacks once you get the archons up. As I said before this is all theory crafting, and I don't like the idea of just thinking of a BO win to this as some in thread are describing. In my theory crafting I like to think of ways of beating my opponent with good BO that can be used into the late game.
Archons at 6:12? I think that would be too tech heavy, and you would lose because of a lack of army.
|
On November 24 2010 00:30 ChickenLips wrote:These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS
Not quite no skill, just micro heavy.
In fact, most of these protoss early all-ins require micro to make or break it (get zealots to the front, focus fire down key targets asap like sentries or enemy stalkers while avoiding as much damage as possible, etc)
Against better opponents, and well-prepared ones, you'll need more micro to even come away even (do some damage), or else you're screwed and behind on tech/econ.
|
I played around using this and it works surprisingly well against terran o_o
Sure does, 1st game I used it after mastering it I completely steamrolled a terran, second game; same dude, I did the same build again and even though he had a ramp block and 3 bunkers I almost busted through. It's insanely strong and even leaves you with enough money to grab an expo right after you start pushing. Great stuff lol.
|
On November 23 2010 22:14 OriginalBeast wrote:
This is bullshit, im not going to memorize a huge build order like that, Ill stick to getting an early gas and plenty of sentries
Note that much of the build listed is just common sense producing units out of your gates and making pylons. Important stuff is earlier.
|
I love the deceptive look. A fast two gate rush or korean 4 gate is very easily scoutable, but a gas + 14 gate makes you think econ/tech. I bet most people would open robo in response to that, which is exactly what you want with this build. Sneaky!
|
On November 24 2010 00:39 citi.zen wrote:
I love the deceptive look. A fast two gate rush or korean 4 gate is very easily scoutable, but a gas + 14 gate makes you think econ/tech. I bet most people would open robo in response to that, which is exactly what you want with this build. Sneaky!
You can't deny scouting until a stalker comes out though. This build is very scoutable.
|
this build works very well verse very easy ai
|
This build is fucking awesome. Absolutely rapes any sort of defensive bunker play from Terran.
|
is he saying they all in attack with the probes coming along for the push too?
|
i dont even think this is all in, if you attack with just this force then you are open to expand pretty freely. get in, do damage, determine whether you want to keep attacking or not, and then expand depending on this decision. good build
|
On November 24 2010 01:19 FrankWalls wrote:
i dont even think this is all in, if you attack with just this force then you are open to expand pretty freely. get in, do damage, determine whether you want to keep attacking or not, and then expand depending on this decision. good build
Noticed this too; cutting only 1 round of reinforcements nets you 400+ mins easily, since 16 probes is pretty good saturation for one base.
|
Russian Federation20 Posts
14 gate is dangerous in case if opponent goes 2 gate pressure or 10 gate & chrono zealots, but gas before gate is not a bad idea. I use it when I want to get many sentries early on.
What piss me off a little bit, is that many people call such builds as "no skill needed". It actually requires good micro, which is a skill I suppose. I like micro and I like to be aggressive as soon as possible so I don't get why people would want me to play it other way.
|
Wouldn't it be better to have 20 probes so you can build a proxy pylon while having 16 on minerals and 3 on gas?
|
United States17042 Posts
sneaky....PvP It looks good, not so good for PvT or PvZ, I'll play around with it on ladder. I'm not convinced that you can get out enough sentries to block your ramp for long enough, but you don't really have any probes for any transitions, just like all of the other korean builds >.>
|
On November 24 2010 00:39 citi.zen wrote:
I love the deceptive look. A fast two gate rush or korean 4 gate is very easily scoutable, but a gas + 14 gate makes you think econ/tech. I bet most people would open robo in response to that, which is exactly what you want with this build. Sneaky!
I'm not sure I would conclude that. By the time he gets a stalker out to kill my initial probe scout and I see only 1 gas I would be quite suspicious of a gateway push. In fact even moreso with this BO since you would likely be able to spot all 3 gateways before his first stalker is out, unless he proxies some gateways outside his base (which might not be a bad idea at all).
I'm not sure this is the build huk is talking about. It only comes 10 secs earlier but at the cost of 1 additional gateway than a standard 4 WG? Doesn't really seem like a worthwhile trade.
|
When do people learn to use Carbon Twelve's tool properly? Don't rely on the worker count it gives you.
Your probe count is terrible - 24 probes can be done as well with one lousy second delay:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 166M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.33: 166M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:17.65: 88M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 151M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:31.80: 131M 0G 9E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:35.83: 174M 3G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.80: 93M 8G 15E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:48.22: 100M 11G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Zealot
2:48.22: 0M 11G 18E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:59.80: 122M 28G 25E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:06.86: 150M 38G 29E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:16.80: 105M 52G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 160M 64G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:29.24: 150M 19G 42E 22/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:38.05: 100M 31G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:42.16: 50M 37G 49E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
3:42.16: 0M 37G 49E 25/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:50.66: 100M 53G 54E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:59.16: 95M 69G 58E 25/ 26S - Build Probe
3:59.16: 45M 69G 58E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:15.66: 247M 101G 43E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:16.16: 153M 102G 43E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:19.16: 140M 107G 45E 29/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:19.16: 140M 107G 20E 29/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:23.78: 100M 116G 22E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:34.24: 129M 136G 28E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.53: 75M 96G 31E 33/ 34S - Build Assimilator
4:53.66: 188M 123G 39E 33/ 42S - Build Stalker
4:53.66: 63M 73G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
4:57.16: 110M 80G 16E 35/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:00.12: 50M 85G 18E 37/ 42S - Build Probe
5:16.24: 217M 116G 27E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:16.82: 100M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:25.83: 105M 99G 32E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 226M 121G 43E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 101M 71G 43E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
6:04.90: 336M 139G 4E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 247M 100G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:08.04: 125M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:13.04: 62M 18G 9E 50/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
That's after 160 million games. Basically the same result in terms of army speed, but with 5 more probes.
|
How does this build fare against your standard korean 4 gate (1st gate at 10 supply)? Does anyone know the timings for that?
|
Seems like a pretty strong all-in, something I been thinking of lately (bringing probes with the gate push). Might try it out but it does seem like a 4KG could be fast enough to take this build out, if executed properly..
|
I aswell would like to see a replay achieving that 6:15 mark, im not even close in the actual game.
|
oh my god i don't like the sound of this at all 
|
wait, so are you supposed to bring your probes to the fight too?
|
On November 24 2010 01:23 Pitsot wrote:
14 gate is dangerous in case if opponent goes 2 gate pressure or 10 gate & chrono zealots, but gas before gate is not a bad idea. I use it when I want to get many sentries early on.
This. Right now I always 10-gate PvP just to have the ability to ward off cheese OR put some early zealot pressure, especially on timing builds like this. While this build is very refined, there are surely near infinite builds for all races that sacrifice defense to peak at one specific time. (Zerg already know all about this.) Constant scouting and pressure are the only answers.
It's true that the 11 gas, 14 gateway look like a tech build, but if I scout that, I don't think to myself "safe to 2-gate robo expand" - I think "ATTACK!" I don't want to see what cool tech you have in store. I prefer to prevent it. The fact that it's not a tech doesn't change the fact that it's a 14-gate with no early defense. You could have 3 zealots in their base around the time their first one pops if they don't alter their plans, which of course any reasonable player would be forced to do once you play your hand.
|
I've come accross some builds like this, the best way I've felt to deal with it is 2 gate robo with a bunch of sentries. Get 4 sentries out and forcefield that ramp, then start making zealots and immortals. On close positions this might not be enough time, so going 3 gate robo might be better to stop it. Sentries are the key to the initial stop and immortals are the best way to counter. Immortals are only countered by void rays and phoenix and you are not likely to see those in pvp (blink is pretty good i guess too). Get 4 sentries, get some zealots and start making immortals. Immortal dps is much better than 2 stalkers so it will hold pretty well. I gotta do the timings later to see.
|
The build that the optimizer made has only 3 warpgates but gets out a lot of units really fast. If a normal 4gate held this off it would certainly pull ahead and win the game :/. I prefer a 1gas 4gate but 2gas for sentries might be better if you scout this.
|
On November 24 2010 01:42 Barook wrote:When do people learn to use Carbon Twelve's tool properly? Don't rely on the worker count it gives you. Your probe count is terrible - 24 probes can be done as well with one lousy second delay: + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 166M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.33: 166M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:17.65: 88M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 151M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:31.80: 131M 0G 9E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:35.83: 174M 3G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.80: 93M 8G 15E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:48.22: 100M 11G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Zealot
2:48.22: 0M 11G 18E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:59.80: 122M 28G 25E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:06.86: 150M 38G 29E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:16.80: 105M 52G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 160M 64G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:29.24: 150M 19G 42E 22/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:38.05: 100M 31G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:42.16: 50M 37G 49E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
3:42.16: 0M 37G 49E 25/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:50.66: 100M 53G 54E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:59.16: 95M 69G 58E 25/ 26S - Build Probe
3:59.16: 45M 69G 58E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:15.66: 247M 101G 43E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:16.16: 153M 102G 43E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:19.16: 140M 107G 45E 29/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:19.16: 140M 107G 20E 29/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:23.78: 100M 116G 22E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:34.24: 129M 136G 28E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.53: 75M 96G 31E 33/ 34S - Build Assimilator
4:53.66: 188M 123G 39E 33/ 42S - Build Stalker
4:53.66: 63M 73G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
4:57.16: 110M 80G 16E 35/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:00.12: 50M 85G 18E 37/ 42S - Build Probe
5:16.24: 217M 116G 27E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:16.82: 100M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:25.83: 105M 99G 32E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 226M 121G 43E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 101M 71G 43E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
6:04.90: 336M 139G 4E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 247M 100G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:08.04: 125M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:13.04: 62M 18G 9E 50/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
That's after 160 million games. Basically the same result in terms of army speed, but with 5 more probes.
simplified
+ Show Spoiler +3x starting nexus chrono
2x ccore chrono
rest on gate/warpgates production
gateways->warps asap (obviously)
9 Pylon
12 Gateway
15 Assimilator, one probe gas asap
15 Pylon
17 2x gas probes now total
17 Core
18 Zealot
20 Third gas probe
21 Gateway
22 Research Warp Gate
22 Gateway
22 Zealot
25 Move Probe To Gas (for some reason, looking through carbons thread, ignore this bad design choice, stay on 3 @ gas)
25 Pylon
26 Zealot
29 Zealot
31 Pylon
31 Stalker
33 Assimilator (Instantly fill it)
33 Stalker
35 Zealot
38 Stalker
40 Pylon
40 Stalker
42 Stalker
44 Stalker
46 Stalker
48 Stalker
ends with you 50/50 so fit another pylon or so in too
|
Here you go, here is a 2 warpgate robo build where you can have 24 probes, 4 zealots, 2 stalkers, 2 sentries, and 2 immortals to deal with a lot of early pressure builds. This is after 300m games.
+ Show Spoiler +
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:06.13: 75M 0G 20E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 89M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:17.65: 111M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 180M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:35.83: 205M 0G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:40.09: 100M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:40.09: 0M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:40.09: 0M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:45.82: 50M 8G 17E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
2:45.82: 0M 8G 17E 18/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
3:05.09: 188M 45G 28E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:05.09: 138M 45G 28E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:05.09: 138M 45G 28E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:22.09: 295M 96G 38E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:22.09: 245M 96G 38E 20/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:25.83: 181M 107G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:39.09: 262M 97G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
3:40.01: 222M 100G 48E 23/ 26S - Build Robotics Facility
3:56.09: 184M 48G 57E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
3:57.61: 150M 53G 58E 24/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:13.16: 167M 100G 66E 24/ 26S - Build Sentry
4:13.16: 117M 0G 66E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:20.65: 100M 23G 70E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:20.65: 0M 23G 70E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:20.65: 0M 23G 45E 26/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
4:45.01: 265M 110G 59E 26/ 34S - Build Immortal
4:48.16: 50M 21G 61E 30/ 42S - Build Probe
4:57.09: 100M 53G 66E 31/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:06.02: 100M 85G 71E 33/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:06.02: 0M 85G 71E 35/ 42S - Move Probe To Minerals
5:10.13: 50M 98G 73E 35/ 42S - Build Probe
5:18.24: 100M 122G 78E 36/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:35.83: 215M 175G 88E 36/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 215M 175G 88E 36/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
5:35.83: 215M 175G 63E 36/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:38.66: 250M 185G 64E 36/ 42S - Build Immortal
5:45.83: 88M 111G 68E 40/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:45.83: 88M 111G 68E 40/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
5:45.83: 88M 111G 43E 40/ 50S - Build Sentry
5:52.49: 121M 35G 47E 42/ 50S - Build Zealot
5:52.49: 21M 35G 47E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:57.56: 83M 53G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Robotics Facility
6:11.16: 251M 102G 8E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:11.16: 126M 52G 8E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:16.16: 63M 20G 10E 48/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 2 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Robotics Facility
Units: 24 Probe 4 Zealot 2 Stalker 2 Sentry 2 Immortal
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
|
I'll update the OP with the optimized version.
Still interested in replays or vods I can add to the OP
|
On November 24 2010 02:02 gwombat wrote:
wait, so are you supposed to bring your probes to the fight too?
No
|
On November 24 2010 03:11 Mystix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:02 gwombat wrote:
wait, so are you supposed to bring your probes to the fight too? No
Really? Since its pretty all in why not bring them to the fight?
20 probes=
800 health meat shield
100 damage per volley
It would take 5-6 zealots to equalize that damage/shield which would mean 2 warp gate cycles until you were even. Bringing the probes make more sense to me anyway.
|
On November 24 2010 03:16 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 03:11 Mystix wrote:On November 24 2010 02:02 gwombat wrote:
wait, so are you supposed to bring your probes to the fight too? No Really? Since its pretty all in why not bring them to the fight? 20 probes= 800 health meat shield 100 damage per volley It would take 5-6 zealots to equalize that damage/shield which would mean 2 warp gate cycles until you were even. Bringing the probes make more sense to me anyway.
sure you could but the point is you can bring 10 scvs as T and it's still not an all-in because you have 2 mules mining in your base.
|
That would be absolutely brutal to deal with imo. The only way I can think of to deal with it is to forcefield the ramp completely for 2-3 cycles if he brought probes so your econ advantage can kick in. Otherwise, pulling your own workers is probably neccessary =/. Reinforcement for the other guy is a non-issue for that build because of wg+proxy pylons. Normally at this point in time I have ~60% of what that has, which is rather scary =/
|
I'd challenge anyone to show an actual replay where they have 8stalker/5zealot around 6:15 with ~19probes instead of just saying the build optimizer says so.
Do these programs even take into account things like the minerals lost from scout probe, probes off minerals to warp buildings? Plus they can add some odd factors such as make all zealots before any stalkers.
From what I have seen of these build optimizers expect to add ~15seconds to a build like this.
So in a real scenario expect 8stalker/5zealot ~6:30, and even slower when you factor in tiny inefficiencies that most will make. Point is, take the build optimizers as a guide to a build, not the final word. Still a strong timing attack, but not the absolute monster of a build one might be lead to believe.
|
Wonder if his so call timing push is related to stop making workers at 16-19 and massing up as much units as you can and do a timing push while other guy keeps on making workers and expand.
|
yeah definitely need to see a replay of this
|
|
|
The simplification does cost some time and there is a lot of little tricks here and there that make a big difference to the total time(ie. mining from the close minerals first like jinro does or building your buildings next to your nexus)
Thanks for the screeny, I'll add that to the OP
|
One thing that absolutely will slow the build down is that the optimizer seems to operate on a "1 probe = x minerals/sec" assumption, instead of "1 probe = x minerals/5sec" assumption - right at the end of the build order it transfers workers off gas to minerals for 1 second total and gets 3 extra minerals out of that, but you could never do it ingame.
|
This is very very interesting. I wonder if stuff like this will pop up for other races...
|
All of this is really pretty much useless unless you compare it with the current 4 gate standard. You say it blows 4 gate pushes out of the water, but I still have a hard time believing that. This 3 gate build might get you the largest army possible at 6:30, but could a 4 gate army be perhaps bigger at 5:30?
You are taking Huk's words too literally without trying to understand any context. What's so good about 5 zealots and 8 stalkers? It seems pretty arbitrary to me, and anyone can use the build order optimizer to get the fastest x army at some y point in time. Is that 6:30 timing suppose to hit right before the first immortal comes out in a 3 gate robo build or something? (I made that up, but you get the idea)
The current "optimized" build order for this looks just like any other warpgate rush where you cut probes. We already know it's strong. What's so special about this particular one?
|
On November 24 2010 03:34 Knickknack wrote:
I'd challenge anyone to show an actual replay where they have 8stalker/5zealot around 6:15 with ~19probes instead of just saying the build optimizer says so.
Do these programs even take into account things like the minerals lost from scout probe, probes off minerals to warp buildings? Plus they can add some odd factors such as make all zealots before any stalkers.
From what I have seen of these build optimizers expect to add ~15seconds to a build like this.
So in a real scenario expect 8stalker/5zealot ~6:30, and even slower when you factor in tiny inefficiencies that most will make. Point is, take the build optimizers as a guide to a build, not the final word. Still a strong timing attack, but not the absolute monster of a build one might be lead to believe.
I agree with this sentiment but I have a different idea. This is a build that Huk specifically mentioned he had a tough time dealing with on the Korean server. So there should to be replays of this in action. Download a bunch of recent Korean PvP's, don't watch any that are over 10 minutes, and the ones that are under 10 minutes watch at x8. If one of the most agressive top level non-Korean Protoss players says he's having trouble against this build, it has to exist in a replay.
|
I don't understand where people are saying 11 gas and 14 gate when the optimized version in the op says 12 gate 15 gas
|
There was previously a less optimized version ozii. By changing it to a 12 gate 15 gas, the BO optimizer managed to squeeze out 5 extra probes.
|
|
|
On November 24 2010 04:58 goldenwitch wrote:
There was previously a less optimized version ozii. By changing it to a 12 gate 15 gas, the BO optimizer managed to squeeze out 5 extra probes.
Ahh ok thanks for the clarification. So with the 5 zealots 7 stalkers this is right as your warpgate tech is finished? Or is this including the first round of units from warpgate? and On 3 gates also? Just want to clarify somethings before I go in to try this out.
|
This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW.
|
Can we get a damn replay already? Jesus man I sort through these questionable theorycrafting threads hoping for something tangible and half the time its just not there.
I wanna see the beast in action.
|
On November 24 2010 05:03 whoopadeedoo wrote:
This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW.
I think it's already established that BW is better and more fun than SC2 (at least among BW players). Right now it's just a matter of making SC2 tolerable enough that people are willing to spend time on it
|
+1 for replay, even if its only vs ai
|
On November 24 2010 05:11 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:03 whoopadeedoo wrote:
This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW. I think it's already established that BW is better and more fun than SC2 (at least among BW players). Right now it's just a matter of making SC2 tolerable enough that people are willing to spend time on it
The game has been out for like what, a few months? And you're already complaining about BW being better?
How long did it take for BW to full develop itself to it's current form with tactics?
Quit your whining and stay on track of the topic, wich is not about wether BW or SC2 is more fun even though comparisons are really -not- suitable at the age of this game.
|
Well, when testing korean warp gate (with gas) fastest I got warpgate ready was 5:12, now add 2x warp-ins - minute later, you get 10 units. So if you delay warpgate little it adds up just normally.
|
On November 24 2010 05:11 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:03 whoopadeedoo wrote:
This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW. I think it's already established that BW is better and more fun than SC2 (at least among BW players). Right now it's just a matter of making SC2 tolerable enough that people are willing to spend time on it
SC/BW went through the same cycle. I don't know why people are assuming SC2 will be perfectly hammered out on release.
As to the rush, It looks scary. Especially the difficult to scout part, but I only find it scary when I add in the meat shield of all your probes. and thats definitely an All-in
|
I don't see what the big deal is... there are so many variants of 4 gate and so many good players doing it that I would be extremely surprised if someone like KiWiKaKi or even just a strong diamond player who 4 gates a lot (for example, OptikZero) hasn't already come up with something similar.
I have a 3 gate expand build that gets 6 stalkers+1 zealot+25 probes at 6:00 and puts down a nexus at 6:13. Even with throwing down a nexus, this means I have 8 stalkers+2 zealots+26 probes at 6:32, with 50 energy on my main nexus. People are taking this build order optimizer (which I have never used) and "omg sc2 is just complicated build order memorizing" stuff way too far, it really makes a negligible difference compared to micro/macro/unit positioning.
|
|
|
The Real problem is that Protoss don't have a good way to defend without spending gobs on gas (sentries). This is apparent with PvP. But if cannons cost less, maybe... maybe. But then they'd be too good late game. Make warp gates transform way slower I guess.
|
Thank you very much blink!
|
Having actually tried this against another player now, I don't think this is what HuK is talking about. The build is so easily scouted, and if you just go 3gate yourself your ramp gives you enough of an advantage to hold. At best this is a decent rush to transition into a contain->expo with.
|
On November 24 2010 05:19 escobari wrote:
Well, when testing korean warp gate (with gas) fastest I got warpgate ready was 5:12, now add 2x warp-ins - minute later, you get 10 units. So if you delay warpgate little it adds up just normally.
How many probes? I think that is what everyone is really focusing on as this has only 3 gates instead of 4.
|
On November 24 2010 05:49 kzn wrote:
Having actually tried this against another player now, I don't think this is what HuK is talking about. The build is so easily scouted, and if you just go 3gate yourself your ramp gives you enough of an advantage to hold. At best this is a decent rush to transition into a contain->expo with.
I wonder how this would work in PvZ if its say a hatch first build maybe this would apply much more pressure earlier and allow you to expand to try and keep up without having to go cannon contain.
|
On November 24 2010 03:34 Knickknack wrote:
I'd challenge anyone to show an actual replay where they have 8stalker/5zealot around 6:15 with ~19probes instead of just saying the build optimizer says so.
Do these programs even take into account things like the minerals lost from scout probe, probes off minerals to warp buildings? Plus they can add some odd factors such as make all zealots before any stalkers.
From what I have seen of these build optimizers expect to add ~15seconds to a build like this.
So in a real scenario expect 8stalker/5zealot ~6:30, and even slower when you factor in tiny inefficiencies that most will make. Point is, take the build optimizers as a guide to a build, not the final word. Still a strong timing attack, but not the absolute monster of a build one might be lead to believe. You can tell the program to send a scouting probe (and even if and when it returns or dies). It also takes into account things like taking a probe of the mineral line to warp in stuff with a time penality. It's pretty good in that regard.
The main factor is going to be the human error because you can't build stuff like a machine. But that isn't the main purpose of the program. It's to figure out new builds - the execution and real timings are up to the player.
|
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/3097
NEXgenius vs TSLsSKS
Both player's get units in similar numbers to the builds shown here but they instead have 4 gateways and 20 probes each. The attack comes just as warpgates finish at around 5:30, maybe HuK was just saying that koreans really know how to 4gate well :
EDIT: i will add a description of the build, I will describe NEXgeniuses version because his warpgates came out faster. It is a standard 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas opener, BUT, probes are only chrono boosted twice and the rest is saved for warpgates. a zealot is made after the core and a stalker is made when the core and zealot finish. As the first stalker is finishing you make the other 3 gates. After the 3 gates a 2nd stalker is made. all of this is done while chrono boosting WG tech constantly.This gets out a 4gate attack at around the 5:30 second mark. Maybe HuK was using Hyperbole in that the koreans just have super efficient 4gate all ins. I have yet to see anyone 4gate this efficiently on the US server, maybe i ought to start!
|
In looking at this replay against say in PvZ if your opponent is going with a 5 RR which should put the roaches at your base at 5:20-5:30 depending on map with this you have out 2 stalkers and 3 zealots either of those could be replaced by a sentry @ 5:30 you have another stalker about to pop and warpgate finishing.
|
On November 24 2010 00:30 ChickenLips wrote:These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS
Facepalm. I'd love to see you hit 2800 diamond with any race or any build.
|
|
|
dont think this is so strong and what huk is talking about, you can have 1 sentry 7/8 stalkers 1 immortal at the same time
edit : actually its 10s more for the immortal build. I guess that 10s make a lot of diff ?
|
5 zealots is pretty good against a sentry and an immortal. You'd have to catch this at your choke.
I'm doubtful that Huk is having problems in the "I can't beat this" sense. It's more likely that he's trying some greedy economy build and the korean rush style requires him to change his plan more than he'd like.
Also I am sure to bet that it isn't a push at x minutes. They probably do some clever harass with their first units then warp in 8 stalkers to kill you off.
|
just tried this out with a mate and it really didn't live up to its potential
Game 1: DT rush and cannons held it ( this is his standard for steppes apparently)
Game 2: 5 gate held it off on xel'naga cz of force feilds
Game 3: on Xel'Naga again, force feilds held off until immos were out
Game 4: on blistering Sentries held off until 2 VRs were out
maybe i was executing this in correctly but it certainly seemed beatable, even laughable on small choked maps and lots of sentries with force feilds
Also in game one my mate did the double stalker push but i managed to hold with just 2 zealots cz he miss micro'd
|
pretty every 4 WG( this particular is not eception ) push is stomped by a 2 gate stalker pressure builds , then add a second gas continue to chrono ur WG , add 2 more gateways , or 1 gate + robo, warp in 2 sentries , and now u are safe.
|
On November 24 2010 02:03 aghull wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:23 Pitsot wrote:
14 gate is dangerous in case if opponent goes 2 gate pressure or 10 gate & chrono zealots, but gas before gate is not a bad idea. I use it when I want to get many sentries early on.
This. Right now I always 10-gate PvP just to have the ability to ward off cheese OR put some early zealot pressure, especially on timing builds like this. While this build is very refined, there are surely near infinite builds for all races that sacrifice defense to peak at one specific time. (Zerg already know all about this.) Constant scouting and pressure are the only answers. It's true that the 11 gas, 14 gateway look like a tech build, but if I scout that, I don't think to myself "safe to 2-gate robo expand" - I think "ATTACK!" I don't want to see what cool tech you have in store. I prefer to prevent it. The fact that it's not a tech doesn't change the fact that it's a 14-gate with no early defense. You could have 3 zealots in their base around the time their first one pops if they don't alter their plans, which of course any reasonable player would be forced to do once you play your hand.
I think you make a very good point, I am also in favor of 10gate opener.
Still I want to try this build vs terran.
|
On November 24 2010 07:09 Zacsafus wrote:
just tried this out with a mate and it really didn't live up to its potential
Game 1: DT rush and cannons held it ( this is his standard for steppes apparently)
Game 2: 5 gate held it off on xel'naga cz of force feilds
Game 3: on Xel'Naga again, force feilds held off until immos were out
Game 4: on blistering Sentries held off until 2 VRs were out
maybe i was executing this in correctly but it certainly seemed beatable, even laughable on small choked maps and lots of sentries with force feilds
Also in game one my mate did the double stalker push but i managed to hold with just 2 zealots cz he miss micro'd
Haha I thought it was just me but I have actually seen this quite a few times at mid-diamond. I'm not sure how this got popularized. They usually try to cannon rush you initially and if that fails they cannon up and rush DTs.
The silly thing is if you successfully stop the cannon rush is you can just expand completely safe but it drags the game way longer for what is pretty much a guaranteed win for you unless you royally screw up.
|
These timings all assume no scouting probe which is in my opintion just too dangerous. I'd always send a 9 scout on most maps and either lose it or put it at a watch tower. This should delay the whole build by 10 to 20s (tried the build a few times with a scouting probe and that was rougly the amount of time I was behind). That is still a good timing, but not as good.
And the biggest problem this build has is the lack of a stalker directly after zealot. This means the opponent can scout all 3 gates and react accordingly.
|
On November 24 2010 06:33 pwnasaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 00:30 ChickenLips wrote:These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS Facepalm. I'd love to see you hit 2800 diamond with any race or any build.
If I set aside 5 hours a day practicing my 4 gate I'm sure 100% confident I could break even against what you see at the 2700 level on the US ladder. I've got the required APM (You can see Minigun at a 2900 rating with about 90 APM and he even does a little more sophisticated all-ins) and the micro isn't so ungodly hard with a little practice.
Why don't I do it? Because I actually want to learn how to play the game, I don't care about my rating and nothing bores me more than playing the exact same 1 base build every game. (As I did with P in beta)
|
On November 24 2010 07:29 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:33 pwnasaurus wrote:On November 24 2010 00:30 ChickenLips wrote:These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS Facepalm. I'd love to see you hit 2800 diamond with any race or any build. If I set aside 5 hours a day practicing my 4 gate I'm sure 100% confident I could break even against what you see at the 2700 level on the US ladder. I've got the required APM (You can see Minigun at a 2900 rating with about 90 APM and he even does a little more sophisticated all-ins) and the micro isn't so ungodly hard with a little practice. Why don't I do it? Because I actually want to learn how to play the game, I don't care about my rating and nothing bores me more than playing the exact same 1 base build every game. (As I did with P in beta)
Both you and people who 4gate every game are making the same mistake. your playing under imaginary rules that say you have to play a certain way. Maybe long macro games are better on some maps and MUs and aggressive playstyles are better on some maps and MUs. Saying that something is stupid and you should never ever do it because it makes you bad is just silly if it works.
Starcraft II is a game that has not been figured out. Pigeonholing yourself to only playing a certain way instead of trying new things and learning from them is no way to learn the game.
|
This is what makes me angry with Team Liquid. People like you find extremely all-in builds and spread them to the masses; thanks for ruining PvP for the next 2 weeks.
|
It's functional for getting a lot of units out very quickly after a certain timing window but I fail to see what you can do with them and it's just as easily scoutable as a Korean 4WG Zealot all-in. Any non-Robo build short of DTs gets enough units out to defend by buying 30 seconds with a Sentry or two. 4WG Zealot all-in autowins because there's no way you can get WGR out fast enough to compete. Perhaps it wins against Robo builds, but I've lost each of the 4 games I've tried this build to 3-gate Blink Stalker or cheese.
I can't see this being at all popular and I won't be using it until I see some means of reliably beating a 4-gate or 3-gate Blink with a Sentry or two. Knock yourselves out!
|
What I've been seeing alot of in PvP, and now started using as I haven't figured out a way to beat it other than using it, or doing something cheesier, is a 4 gate push with 20 probes that gets 6 stalkers at 530ish. Then lets you warp in more stalkers/lots, normally with some proxy pylons to warp up into the base.
Against sentries at 5:30 the most I've seen is 2 sentries, which couldn't hold out long enough to defend this build.
Between 530 and 615-630 when this build hits I can normally can chrono 2-3, if not all gates, giving me 2 rounds. That would give this build around 9 stalkers and 5 zealots by 630, if not a bit sooner.
The build uses 10 gate, 12 gas to build up gas for stalkers so you don't need the 2nd gas.
Also, this build seems pretty popular on the NA servers already.
|
On November 24 2010 07:52 Gecko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:29 ChickenLips wrote:On November 24 2010 06:33 pwnasaurus wrote:On November 24 2010 00:30 ChickenLips wrote:These kinds of builds make me wanna switch to Protoss so I can just get to 2700 on ladder without any skill and be like HURR LOOK AT ME IM A TOP PROTOSS Facepalm. I'd love to see you hit 2800 diamond with any race or any build. If I set aside 5 hours a day practicing my 4 gate I'm sure 100% confident I could break even against what you see at the 2700 level on the US ladder. I've got the required APM (You can see Minigun at a 2900 rating with about 90 APM and he even does a little more sophisticated all-ins) and the micro isn't so ungodly hard with a little practice. Why don't I do it? Because I actually want to learn how to play the game, I don't care about my rating and nothing bores me more than playing the exact same 1 base build every game. (As I did with P in beta) Both you and people who 4gate every game are making the same mistake. your playing under imaginary rules that say you have to play a certain way. Maybe long macro games are better on some maps and MUs and aggressive playstyles are better on some maps and MUs. Saying that something is stupid and you should never ever do it because it makes you bad is just silly if it works. Starcraft II is a game that has not been figured out. Pigeonholing yourself to only playing a certain way instead of trying new things and learning from them is no way to learn the game.
I dislike players that play the same style every game equally. Probably more if they stay on 1 base since it requires less skill. I'm not saying you should never 4 gate. Heck on maps like SoW and Blistering you'd probably be stupid not to. However, I also think it is fallacious to 4 gate every single game just because you don't know any other playstyle. IdrA sometimes makes me facepalm because he blindly classes agression as non-worthy of his holy macro-zerg style. He even called Kyrix' 2 base baneling bust 'retarded'. This lack of game sense and openness to strategy will seemingly forever keep him from being the gosu he so desires to be, Kyrix went through G-Star without dropping a game. He said himself that when he scouted economic builds, he decided for timing attacks (Something P and T seemingly figured out 4 months ago). They were very well executed and you could see how much trouble his opponents had even though they were familiar with his playstyle.
I love strategic diversity, my original post in this thread only related to how easy it is to memorize 1 build order as Protoss and consistently win against better players. I've started to incorporate 2 base aggression into my Z style and it has opened my eyes to a whole array of new possibilities and how they change the flow of specific match-ups and I have to thank Foxer and Kyrix for that.
|
Man you guys on the NA servers really can just mess around in your leagues.
No way could I go for a 14 gateway in PvP on SEA server. Hello 10-12 double gate zealot push?
|
On November 24 2010 07:21 painprophet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:03 aghull wrote:On November 24 2010 01:23 Pitsot wrote:
14 gate is dangerous in case if opponent goes 2 gate pressure or 10 gate & chrono zealots, but gas before gate is not a bad idea. I use it when I want to get many sentries early on.
This. Right now I always 10-gate PvP just to have the ability to ward off cheese OR put some early zealot pressure, especially on timing builds like this. While this build is very refined, there are surely near infinite builds for all races that sacrifice defense to peak at one specific time. (Zerg already know all about this.) Constant scouting and pressure are the only answers. It's true that the 11 gas, 14 gateway look like a tech build, but if I scout that, I don't think to myself "safe to 2-gate robo expand" - I think "ATTACK!" I don't want to see what cool tech you have in store. I prefer to prevent it. The fact that it's not a tech doesn't change the fact that it's a 14-gate with no early defense. You could have 3 zealots in their base around the time their first one pops if they don't alter their plans, which of course any reasonable player would be forced to do once you play your hand. I think you make a very good point, I am also in favor of 10gate opener. Still I want to try this build vs terran.
What has your success being using 10gate opener against those that 4 Gate (im assuming who go 13 Gate followed by 3 other Gates)? In PvP, if I see the opponent go 13 Gate 17 Core, I guess they are going the tech way (e.g. 2 Gate Robo or something) and then I go 13 Gate 15 Gate (then maybe at 20 go Gate x2) to try and take advantage of their slow start?? Usually ends up I have 3-4 zealots in their base doing some damage but nearly not enough as they just build 4 Gates as well and eventually fight me back.
|
It's just the styles of all the servers. I don't mean to offend anybody but -
Capitalist world, and what's the best way to be a capitalist? Invest,risk and get money! I see your 15 nexus and raise you double expand, because what comes around goes around!
Some other parts of the world:
- fight for survival = kill him early so I can take all his food
|
On November 24 2010 08:34 aruno wrote:
Man you guys on the NA servers really can just mess around in your leagues.
No way could I go for a 14 gateway in PvP on SEA server. Hello 10-12 double gate zealot push?
Unless its proxied or on a massive map you can scout that before 14, and if its a massive map you can defend it with a 14.
|
Although having slated this build in my last post, I should mention that on maps like Steppes of War and Xel'Naga Caverns this is doing fairly well against 2k - 2.3k Terran players. It micros a lot like the old Zealot/Sentry push back when Sentries had 8 damage; when the Zealots die, you run away and warp in more Zealots. Rinse and repeat until dead.
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
its a good build but im pvp u can stop this easy with sentrys force field until u have something else, maybe collosy?
|
God not another dumbass protoss allin that is going to be used in every matchup. have any of you people ever considered learning to play the game instead of learning to memorize numbres? And no, these pushes do not involve skill "microing your units to target fire" isn't skill, its basic stuff. Cutting workers isnt skill and 16 workers on 1 base isnt good saturation.
Noticed this too; cutting only 1 round of reinforcements nets you 400+ mins easily, since 16 probes is pretty good saturation for one base.
Not quite no skill, just micro heavy.
In fact, most of these protoss early all-ins require micro to make or break it (get zealots to the front, focus fire down key targets asap like sentries or enemy stalkers while avoiding as much damage as possible, etc)
|
Huk just put some random numbers in his quote and people try to get a qoute from it.
This build is rather poor because it just has some key weaknesses:
- it doesnt scout and has a 14 gate + a slight pylon block when the first gate finishes. Also spends 3 chrono on nexus. This combined makes it an automatic loss against some cheeses.
- it produces the first stalker quite late, so this build is terribly easy to scout. 4 gate's are not hard to stop but part of their power lies in not letting the opponent know too quickly what you are doing. If you telegraph a 4 gate strat right away it is just painfully easy to stop on most maps. Fast sentry into a tech build (for example DT) sweeps the floor with this kind of stuff if you don't scare the scout away. Getting 3 gates before you even make a stalker while on 1 gas with stocked chronoboost (or using it on warpgate tech) tells what you are doing right away, a normal 4 gate is at least somewhat concealed as that kills the scout quickly (and thus could just be a delayed 2 gas build or even a FE).
- The build doesn't really work out as well as the build order optimalizer puts it. For example you need to proxy a pylon if you want to be aggresive, also including a zealot as one of the last units you make before warpgate sucks as it has too much travel time.
Nevertheless, a 3 gate rush while making lots of units before you get warpgate CAN provide much stronger rushes then the classic 4 gates (ie make 2-3 units and then warp in 4). It's only good at maps where 4 gates are notoriously hard to stop though, in fact I only think a strat like this is a good at scrap station. The entire thing about PvP is in hiding your build and hoping you do a build that is well against theirs (or use a versatile one like blink stalkers / 3 gate robo). Making directly clear what you intent to do just sucks, especially if it is as all-in like this build, since with so few probes and only 3 gates this build NEEDS to do damage quick whereas a regular 4 gate can easily adopt still.
|
On November 24 2010 08:22 ChickenLips wrote:Probably more if they stay on 1 base since it requires less skill.
Whether or not that's true, the only skills that are relevant are ones that lead to victories. Someone who wins with 1 base play has more skill where it counts than someone who loses with 2+ base play.
To be honest, I think successful one base play requires greater skill, because of the demands it places on you to quickly find a way to negate the advantage of someone threatening two base play. It's a lot easier to simply macro up with your opponent to maintain parity.
However, I also think it is fallacious to 4 gate every single game just because you don't know any other playstyle.
If the meaning of this comment is "you should occasionally take some time away from honing your main strategy to do research and development into other ones", then I would agree with you. Is that really what you really meant, though?
I love strategic diversity, my original post in this thread only related to how easy it is to memorize 1 build order as Protoss and consistently win against better players.
I reiterate my first sentence.
|
On November 24 2010 09:33 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:21 painprophet wrote:On November 24 2010 02:03 aghull wrote:On November 24 2010 01:23 Pitsot wrote:
14 gate is dangerous in case if opponent goes 2 gate pressure or 10 gate & chrono zealots, but gas before gate is not a bad idea. I use it when I want to get many sentries early on.
This. Right now I always 10-gate PvP just to have the ability to ward off cheese OR put some early zealot pressure, especially on timing builds like this. While this build is very refined, there are surely near infinite builds for all races that sacrifice defense to peak at one specific time. (Zerg already know all about this.) Constant scouting and pressure are the only answers. It's true that the 11 gas, 14 gateway look like a tech build, but if I scout that, I don't think to myself "safe to 2-gate robo expand" - I think "ATTACK!" I don't want to see what cool tech you have in store. I prefer to prevent it. The fact that it's not a tech doesn't change the fact that it's a 14-gate with no early defense. You could have 3 zealots in their base around the time their first one pops if they don't alter their plans, which of course any reasonable player would be forced to do once you play your hand. I think you make a very good point, I am also in favor of 10gate opener. Still I want to try this build vs terran. What has your success being using 10gate opener against those that 4 Gate (im assuming who go 13 Gate followed by 3 other Gates)? In PvP, if I see the opponent go 13 Gate 17 Core, I guess they are going the tech way (e.g. 2 Gate Robo or something) and then I go 13 Gate 15 Gate (then maybe at 20 go Gate x2) to try and take advantage of their slow start?? Usually ends up I have 3-4 zealots in their base doing some damage but nearly not enough as they just build 4 Gates as well and eventually fight me back.
I'd say 60%. It's pretty even and comes down to how well they defend the push (chrono stalker and not over-reacting with probe defense) and then it's often just who gets the better 4 gate. His warpgates will finish sooner but if you did enough eco damage and didn't lose *all* your initial zealots, you will still be in a better spot if you can hold till yours come up. I still prefer taking my chances with 10-12 gate. Against less experienced protoss on 4gate builds it can end the game right there, although that is certainly never my realistic goal. It's just meant to dent the eco enough to get them off their build.
|
On November 23 2010 21:09 goldenwitch wrote:Unfortunately for everyone on ladder, it appears to be terribly terribly possible. At 6:13 seconds you have, 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core and 24 Probes 5 Zealots 8 Stalkers. ... Kzn with 5 zealots 7 stalkers at 6:27 screeny + Show Spoiler +Blink` with 5 zealots 8 stalkers and 22 probes at 6:25 replay vs AI! + Show Spoiler +
That's really crazy,
My blink stalkers build only got 5 stalkers at 6, by 6.30 probably I got 8 if I optimized my built a bit more. Even if I blink like crazy there is no way I can hold this 5 zealot + 7/8/9 stalkers.
I would like to see a replay of it, and see if I can optimized my own built even more.
I'm curious to know what other people normally get at 6' and what built that's used ..
|
4 gate generally has 8 units at 6 minutes antas
other benchmarks -
At 5:30 you should be scouting for a roach rush if you FE'd as toss in pvz.
At 5:30 the 2 marines 1 marauder timing poke is halfway to your base on most maps.
At 7:00, if you suspect DTs you should have detection started.
At 8:30, you should be prepared for mutas if you haven't pressured zerg at all.
Hope that helps put this in perspective <3
|
I only use this in PvP, it works really well to get an early lead to grab an early expo.
I don't particularly like all-ins so I've tried to expand behind it every time. Works wonders.
|
On November 24 2010 07:58 Terrence wrote:
This is what makes me angry with Team Liquid. People like you find extremely all-in builds and spread them to the masses; thanks for ruining PvP for the next 2 weeks.
PvP is already a mess its just colossus as much as people hate all-ins and 4 gate it is without question the basic build for Protoss its not going anywhere. I think looking at these kinds of builds as more of a building block is something very constructive to look at example the different timings in going 3 gate placing gas at 15 and pylon at 15 instead of the normal 14 maybe allows other people to experiment with other openers to find more interesting ideas.
Maybe someone experiments say a more macro orientated toss finds different timing + pressure to allow for safe expands. I think people should have more of a open mind when it comes to builds allin or not its not like someone can't reasonably take this build test and tweak and find something more macro suited.
Its 5 zealots and 7 stalkers on 3 gates there is nothing stopping anyone from cutting out 1 zealot and 1 stalker. To have an extra 4 probes(so your at 26 instead of 22 using blinks version) and expanding at 30 food or so. Giving you even more units and gates to deal with early pressure in say PvT similar to kcdc fe. I just pulled that off top of my head. Just don't go omg allin build and totally disregard it as terrible without thinking of its potential.
|
On November 25 2010 01:12 oZii wrote:
Its 5 zealots and 7 stalkers on 3 gates there is nothing stopping anyone from cutting out 1 zealot and 1 stalker. To have an extra 4 probes(so your at 26 instead of 22 using blinks version) and expanding at 30 food or so. Giving you even more units and gates to deal with early pressure in say PvT similar to kcdc fe. I just pulled that off top of my head. Just don't go omg allin build and totally disregard it as terrible without thinking of its potential.
You probably mean something like this:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:33.85: 174M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.08: 150M 0G 3E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:45.19: 64M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
1:52.11: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.19: 63M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:08.12: 100M 0G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:15.33: 67M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.90: 72M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:22.11: 85M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:27.24: 135M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:40.19: 221M 13G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:42.08: 191M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.08: 41M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:57.19: 194M 35G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:14.19: 333M 59G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:14.19: 283M 59G 33E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:24.78: 400M 79G 39E 20/ 26S - Build Nexus
3:31.19: 68M 91G 43E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:32.08: 27M 93G 43E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.20: 50M 97G 19E 21/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:47.59: 150M 72G 27E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:00.68: 150M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:00.68: 0M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:04.93: 50M 105G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
4:13.30: 100M 121G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:21.93: 102M 138G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.67: 137M 150G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:29.71: 150M 152G 1E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:38.93: 114M 170G 6E 23/ 34S - Build Probe
4:43.60: 125M 179G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:55.93: 166M 152G 15E 26/ 34S - Build Probe
4:56.59: 125M 153G 16E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:04.78: 112M 119G 20E 29/ 44S - Build Probe
5:07.35: 100M 124G 22E 30/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:12.93: 83M 135G 25E 32/ 44S - Build Probe
5:21.78: 171M 151G 30E 33/ 44S - Build Probe
5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Chrono Gateway
5:35.60: 349M 178G 13E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Build Stalker
5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Pylon
5:45.60: 300M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:45.60: 200M 147G 18E 38/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:49.22: 162M 153G 20E 40/ 44S - Chrono Gateway
5:53.47: 235M 162G 23E 40/ 44S - Build Zealot
6:10.76: 442M 194G 32E 42/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 368M 150G 34E 44/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 243M 100G 34E 46/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:13.97: 125M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas
6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S
Income: 1071M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
Waypoint 2 satisfied:
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S
Income: 1110M 84G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
But that's just something I quickly threw together - feel free to optimize the probe and unit count with additional waypoints.
|
On November 25 2010 02:23 Barook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:12 oZii wrote:
Its 5 zealots and 7 stalkers on 3 gates there is nothing stopping anyone from cutting out 1 zealot and 1 stalker. To have an extra 4 probes(so your at 26 instead of 22 using blinks version) and expanding at 30 food or so. Giving you even more units and gates to deal with early pressure in say PvT similar to kcdc fe. I just pulled that off top of my head. Just don't go omg allin build and totally disregard it as terrible without thinking of its potential. You probably mean something like this: + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:33.85: 174M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.08: 150M 0G 3E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:45.19: 64M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
1:52.11: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.19: 63M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:08.12: 100M 0G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:15.33: 67M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.90: 72M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:22.11: 85M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:27.24: 135M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:40.19: 221M 13G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:42.08: 191M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.08: 41M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:57.19: 194M 35G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:14.19: 333M 59G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:14.19: 283M 59G 33E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:24.78: 400M 79G 39E 20/ 26S - Build Nexus
3:31.19: 68M 91G 43E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:32.08: 27M 93G 43E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.20: 50M 97G 19E 21/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:47.59: 150M 72G 27E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:00.68: 150M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:00.68: 0M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:04.93: 50M 105G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
4:13.30: 100M 121G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:21.93: 102M 138G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.67: 137M 150G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:29.71: 150M 152G 1E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:38.93: 114M 170G 6E 23/ 34S - Build Probe
4:43.60: 125M 179G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:55.93: 166M 152G 15E 26/ 34S - Build Probe
4:56.59: 125M 153G 16E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:04.78: 112M 119G 20E 29/ 44S - Build Probe
5:07.35: 100M 124G 22E 30/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:12.93: 83M 135G 25E 32/ 44S - Build Probe
5:21.78: 171M 151G 30E 33/ 44S - Build Probe
5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Chrono Gateway
5:35.60: 349M 178G 13E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Build Stalker
5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Pylon
5:45.60: 300M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:45.60: 200M 147G 18E 38/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:49.22: 162M 153G 20E 40/ 44S - Chrono Gateway
5:53.47: 235M 162G 23E 40/ 44S - Build Zealot
6:10.76: 442M 194G 32E 42/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 368M 150G 34E 44/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 243M 100G 34E 46/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:13.97: 125M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas
6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S
Income: 1071M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
Waypoint 2 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1110M 84G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation But that's just something I quickly threw together - feel free to optimize the probe and unit count with additional waypoints.
Exactly my point and that really wasn't so hard and its definitely macro oriented. At all and thanks I will be messing around with this. I havent actually gotten down how to use the Protoss Optimizer.
|
Honestly, this post.. these builds.... are the reason protoss is so hard to balance right now. I really wish people would use the 4 gate as one of many tools rather than being 1 trick ponies.
|
On November 25 2010 02:23 Barook wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:12 oZii wrote:
Its 5 zealots and 7 stalkers on 3 gates there is nothing stopping anyone from cutting out 1 zealot and 1 stalker. To have an extra 4 probes(so your at 26 instead of 22 using blinks version) and expanding at 30 food or so. Giving you even more units and gates to deal with early pressure in say PvT similar to kcdc fe. I just pulled that off top of my head. Just don't go omg allin build and totally disregard it as terrible without thinking of its potential. You probably mean something like this: + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:33.85: 174M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.08: 150M 0G 3E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:45.19: 64M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
1:52.11: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:59.19: 63M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:08.12: 100M 0G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:15.33: 67M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.90: 72M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:22.11: 85M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:27.24: 135M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:40.19: 221M 13G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:42.08: 191M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.08: 41M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:57.19: 194M 35G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:14.19: 333M 59G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:14.19: 283M 59G 33E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:24.78: 400M 79G 39E 20/ 26S - Build Nexus
3:31.19: 68M 91G 43E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:32.08: 27M 93G 43E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:34.20: 50M 97G 19E 21/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:47.59: 150M 72G 27E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:00.68: 150M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:00.68: 0M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:04.93: 50M 105G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
4:13.30: 100M 121G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:21.93: 102M 138G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
4:28.67: 137M 150G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:29.71: 150M 152G 1E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:38.93: 114M 170G 6E 23/ 34S - Build Probe
4:43.60: 125M 179G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:55.93: 166M 152G 15E 26/ 34S - Build Probe
4:56.59: 125M 153G 16E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker
5:04.78: 112M 119G 20E 29/ 44S - Build Probe
5:07.35: 100M 124G 22E 30/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:12.93: 83M 135G 25E 32/ 44S - Build Probe
5:21.78: 171M 151G 30E 33/ 44S - Build Probe
5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Chrono Gateway
5:35.60: 349M 178G 13E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Build Stalker
5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Pylon
5:45.60: 300M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:45.60: 200M 147G 18E 38/ 44S - Build Zealot
5:49.22: 162M 153G 20E 40/ 44S - Chrono Gateway
5:53.47: 235M 162G 23E 40/ 44S - Build Zealot
6:10.76: 442M 194G 32E 42/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 368M 150G 34E 44/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 243M 100G 34E 46/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:13.97: 125M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Build Stalker
6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas
6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S
Income: 1071M 114G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals
Waypoint 2 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1110M 84G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation But that's just something I quickly threw together - feel free to optimize the probe and unit count with additional waypoints.
Uh, I think this build tells you to get a 20nex without building a single unit (and not for another minute and twenty seconds after the nex).
Not exactly what people are looking for, I think.
|
On November 25 2010 03:36 Jayrod wrote:
Honestly, this post.. these builds.... are the reason protoss is so hard to balance right now. I really wish people would use the 4 gate as one of many tools rather than being 1 trick ponies.
All-ins that sacrifice a ton of probes are not 'tools' unless you're in a tournament and trying to throw your opponent off.
|
On November 24 2010 21:00 goldenwitch wrote:
4 gate generally has 8 units at 6 minutes antas
other benchmarks -
At 5:30 you should be scouting for a roach rush if you FE'd as toss in pvz.
At 5:30 the 2 marines 1 marauder timing poke is halfway to your base on most maps.
At 7:00, if you suspect DTs you should have detection started.
At 8:30, you should be prepared for mutas if you haven't pressured zerg at all.
Hope that helps put this in perspective <3
Hi, thanks for giving some comparison.
I didn't compare the OP build with 4 gates since I love doing blink stalkers opening in PvP, it's quite versatile IMO.
I agree that scouting is really the key here.
|
My thoughts after playing about 50 ladder games with this build (I did it against all races and all maps):
PvP: I went undefeated, it was laughably easy no matter what they did. I never went up against a 1gate robo, but I managed to beat everything from 2gate rush, to standard 4gate, to 3gate blink. Nobody tried FE against me either, but I'm certain that is suicidal. Since this is a PvP build, these results make me happy, but I tried it in other matchups as well:
PvZ: The build was pretty bad. You don't gain anything from the quicker push, and no sentries hurts a lot. I tried getting much earlier gas to add sentries into the build, but then it just kind of turned into a regular 4gate. It can win if they expand or tech too quickly, but most other builds can apply more consistent pressure.
PvT: I'm not dumb enough to try this against a turtling terran, so I usually ended up transposing into 3gate robo. One time I went 2gate stargate. If they weren't getting tech labs on their barracks, I would try to break them, and sometimes succeed (like fast banshees are suicide against this build), but overall I think there are way more effective pushes against terran.
So, summary: Pretty good in PvP I think, not very good elsewhere. You have the option of bringing your probes to all-in or expanding behind the pressure, which is cool too. I'll definitely be using it from now on.
|
this is scary. 4 gates is already annoying as it is, now we have 3 gate all in ? =(
|
On November 30 2010 09:12 Cel.erity wrote:
My thoughts after playing about 50 ladder games with this build (I did it against all races and all maps):
PvP: I went undefeated, it was laughably easy no matter what they did. I never went up against a 1gate robo, but I managed to beat everything from 2gate rush, to standard 4gate, to 3gate blink. Nobody tried FE against me either, but I'm certain that is suicidal. Since this is a PvP build, these results make me happy, but I tried it in other matchups as well:
PvZ: The build was pretty bad. You don't gain anything from the quicker push, and no sentries hurts a lot. I tried getting much earlier gas to add sentries into the build, but then it just kind of turned into a regular 4gate. It can win if they expand or tech too quickly, but most other builds can apply more consistent pressure.
PvT: I'm not dumb enough to try this against a turtling terran, so I usually ended up transposing into 3gate robo. One time I went 2gate stargate. If they weren't getting tech labs on their barracks, I would try to break them, and sometimes succeed (like fast banshees are suicide against this build), but overall I think there are way more effective pushes against terran.
So, summary: Pretty good in PvP I think, not very good elsewhere. You have the option of bringing your probes to all-in or expanding behind the pressure, which is cool too. I'll definitely be using it from now on.
I tried this build in PvT as well with decent success vs teching or FE builds. By waiting another minute or so, getting a sentry to stop repair and a couple more zealots to break a bunker at the ramp I found it quite easy to kill the terran who massed marines for banshees or a thor push.
If you scout bio, abandon this build and transition into a normal FE, 2 gate robo or whichever build you favor.
|
This thread makes me sad, PvP is so all in and lame. The things I would do to have a legit non War of the Worlds 4 base vs 4 base PvP .
|
Just wanted to chime in and say that it's awesome to hear people using the app I wrote to come up with these build orders I'm still not 100% happy with the Zerg or Protoss modules, but figured I should work on a Terran one sooner given that the Protoss and Zerg are at least functional. I haven't read all the thread yet, so if there are any issues or people have any questions please feel free to post in the thread for the app or send me a PM.
|
I gave it a shot:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=170241
He ended up doing a similar 3 gate build, but mine ended up being faster, so I pushed him back and contained him. I decided to transition to DTs, since I figured he had no detection and I have not had time to think of any better transitions. Ends up being a DT battle, but it was a fun game and the build has some potential.
As far as a 1v1 build there are some issues outlined by a lot of folks, but it is definitely viable. I actually think it would be a stellar 2v2 build. I have been doing some warpgate rushes on a pz team, but I think this ends up being more stable and is something I am going to try out.
|
Here is an improved build I found after using a lot of tweaking with the C12 app. HuK's numbers seemed arbitrary, so I decided to see what I could manage when I played with the food and gas dependance, etc, and here is a build I found optimized after over a billion games, which has reached 95% likelihood of completion.
Target: 26 probes, 5 Zealots, 7 Stalkers (50/50 food) + 3 warpgate
9 Pylon (1)
13 Gateway (2)
15 Assimilator (1) - Saturate with 3 probes immediately
15 Pylon (2)
18 Cybernetics Core (1)
18 Gateway (2)
19 Gateway (3)
20 -begin researching Warpgate technology and Chronoboost
20 Zealot (1) **Time: 3:30**
23 Pylon (3)
24 Zealot (2)
26 Zealot (3)
28 Zealot (4) **Time: 4:30**
31 Stalker (1)
36 Stalker (2)
38 Stalker (3)
40 Pylon
**Transform Gateways ASAP**
Warp-in Stalkers as gas allows, and Zealots when you cannot afford stalkers from here on out
Build Completion: 6:05
Realistically: Under 6:30
However, obvious weaknesses of this build are as follows:
1. Unable to quickly dispatch of scouting worker
2. Very weak to a 2 gate Zealot rush or even a chronoboosted 10 Gate
3. Not enough gas for Sentries
It seems like a decent "get out of bronze free" card, however this is clearly not a diamond level build, and the numbers HuK used are completely arbitrary.
|
I feel like if pro's like HuK can lose to it, what makes it a "get out of bronze free" card. It seems like this build could be used up in the diamond leagues.
|
On December 01 2010 04:00 patron wrote:
Here is an improved build I found after using a lot of tweaking with the C12 app. HuK's numbers seemed arbitrary, so I decided to see what I could manage when I played with the food and gas dependance, etc, and here is a build I found optimized after over a billion games, which has reached 95% likelihood of completion.
Target: 26 probes, 5 Zealots, 7 Stalkers (50/50 food) + 3 warpgate
9 Pylon (1)
13 Gateway (2)
15 Assimilator (1) - Saturate with 3 probes immediately
15 Pylon (2)
18 Cybernetics Core (1)
18 Gateway (2)
19 Gateway (3)
20 -begin researching Warpgate technology and Chronoboost
20 Zealot (1) **Time: 3:30**
23 Pylon (3)
24 Zealot (2)
26 Zealot (3)
28 Zealot (4) **Time: 4:30**
31 Stalker (1)
36 Stalker (2)
38 Stalker (3)
40 Pylon
**Transform Gateways ASAP**
Warp-in Stalkers as gas allows, and Zealots when you cannot afford stalkers from here on out
Build Completion: 6:05
Realistically: Under 6:30
However, obvious weaknesses of this build are as follows:
1. Unable to quickly dispatch of scouting worker
2. Very weak to a 2 gate Zealot rush or even a chronoboosted 10 Gate
3. Not enough gas for Sentries
It seems like a decent "get out of bronze free" card, however this is clearly not a diamond level build, and the numbers HuK used are completely arbitrary.
You think a build that gets you 5 zealots and 8 stalkers by 6:30 is clearly not a diamond level build because it has problems with 10 gate and 2 gate?
Thats like saying 1 base collo is a get out of bronze free card because it loses to cannon rush.
|
On November 30 2010 17:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:Just wanted to chime in and say that it's awesome to hear people using the app I wrote to come up with these build orders I'm still not 100% happy with the Zerg or Protoss modules, but figured I should work on a Terran one sooner given that the Protoss and Zerg are at least functional. I haven't read all the thread yet, so if there are any issues or people have any questions please feel free to post in the thread for the app or send me a PM.
No disrespect, but they aren't. The guy that used it had a build that had no protection and required 2 nexus to get this timing. It literally makes no sense. Alot of TLers overuse these types of tools and end up just lacking game sense. Im pretty sure the koreans came up with this build and someone used your calculator to try to take it when they could have just figured it out from watching a rep or two
|
On November 25 2010 14:16 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 03:36 Jayrod wrote:
Honestly, this post.. these builds.... are the reason protoss is so hard to balance right now. I really wish people would use the 4 gate as one of many tools rather than being 1 trick ponies. All-ins that sacrifice a ton of probes are not 'tools' unless you're in a tournament and trying to throw your opponent off.
No thats not the point im making at all. Builds like this just prove how powerful the 4 gate really is...it limits blizzards abilities to balance because those of us that are hitting that 'protoss wall' for lack of a better term can't use it outside of a series type situation and the lower skill players that aren't protoss are finding it near impossible to beat. Its like how that 2 thor push is the bane of platinum protoss players. I havent lost to Janook's 2 thor push in forever because my opener allows me to easily stop it, but I can see why so many struggle with this powerful timing. It makes it hard to buff any of the units involved for terran because its so powerful. Same idea about the power of the 4 gate. A 4 gate all-in is a lot more effective than some 6 pool or proxy barracks even against good players. The good players arent the ones preventing balance though. Its the lower level people that can't stop these builds that many higher level people find easy to stop when scouted. I could play vs a platinum or mid-diamond player, state that im 4 gating, 4 gate them and completely stomp them because its difficult to stop without good control and an airtight response.
|
On December 01 2010 04:16 Jayrod wrote:
No disrespect, but they aren't. The guy that used it had a build that had no protection and required 2 nexus to get this timing. It literally makes no sense.
Hmm? The build in the OP uses my app, and only has 1 Nexus.
Alot of TLers overuse these types of tools and end up just lacking game sense. Im pretty sure the koreans came up with this build and someone used your calculator to try to take it when they could have just figured it out from watching a rep or two
I'm not saying he invented the build order or anything, but being able to use the app to generate a build order for that target both could save you a lot of practice time, and could find a build order slightly faster than what the Koreans were using.
I'm also not saying the results from my app should be taken blindly or anything, but there have been a few people in this thread who have used the build order to great success.
Incidentally, I was running the test myself and the build order it has atm is 2s slower but has 4 warpgates instead. Possibly worth the slight delay.
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:31.19: 153M 0G 0E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator
1:33.85: 97M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:45.19: 142M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
1:51.63: 150M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:59.19: 65M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.19: 32M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:08.55: 100M 5G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:08.55: 0M 5G 21E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:15.33: 53M 13G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.90: 58M 14G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:27.24: 109M 28G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:27.24: 59M 28G 7E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:40.19: 178M 53G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:56.63: 289M 84G 23E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:57.19: 145M 85G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
2:59.78: 119M 90G 25E 19/ 26S - Chrono Nexus
3:09.38: 216M 108G 5E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:21.19: 297M 131G 12E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:21.19: 247M 131G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:21.49: 150M 131G 12E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:38.19: 190M 163G 22E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
3:39.06: 150M 165G 22E 24/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:46.63: 88M 179G 26E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
3:46.63: 88M 179G 1E 24/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:55.19: 143M 145G 6E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
3:55.79: 100M 147G 7E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:07.92: 150M 170G 13E 25/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:12.19: 53M 178G 16E 25/ 26S - Build Probe
4:20.79: 114M 194G 21E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:29.02: 125M 210G 25E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:44.06: 205M 188G 34E 30/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:44.06: 105M 188G 34E 32/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:58.79: 204M 216G 42E 32/ 34S - Build Zealot
5:11.02: 272M 240G 49E 34/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:11.02: 147M 190G 49E 36/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:16.85: 125M 201G 52E 36/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:26.05: 125M 168G 57E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:26.05: 0M 118G 57E 40/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
5:36.79: 147M 138G 38E 40/ 50S - Build Zealot
5:36.79: 47M 138G 38E 42/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
5:57.56: 331M 178G 25E 42/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
5:57.56: 331M 178G 0E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.05: 337M 179G 0E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.85: 348M 180G 1E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
6:02.38: 396M 187G 3E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
6:07.56: 467M 197G 6E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.05: 349M 148G 6E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.85: 235M 99G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.85: 110M 49G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:08.85: 110M 49G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:09.92: 125M 50G 7E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:09.92: 0M 0G 7E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:09.92: 0M 0G 7E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:14.92: 68M 10G 10E 50/ 50S
Income: 820M 114G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 5 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
|
On November 24 2010 05:03 whoopadeedoo wrote:
This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW.
Apparently you missed the evolution of Starcraft in the first couple years...
The expectation for SC2 to already have all of these completely standardized BOs and constant macro games is ridiculous. You can't really make a good RTS that isn't going to have powerful rushes that take people time to learn how to stop. A good RTS is going to have constantly evolving strategies and build orders... were you not around when SC1 was in its early days?
|
When are we gonna stop the cheese, and figure out some solid macro strategies?
|
Why are macro strategies better than rushes?
|
You need to know all your rushes and cheese so you can actually play macro.
|
On December 01 2010 07:15 Retgery wrote:
When are we gonna stop the cheese, and figure out some solid macro strategies?
when are you going to stop being annoying and whiny?
|
Huk was probably talking about a variation of this 4 Gate: NexGenius vs Tester 1 Gas 4 Gate
It's a lot more reasonable and still ridiculously strong. You scout at 12 after Gateway, you get an early Zealot and Stalker to protect your proxy pylon probe. WG finishes at 5:30 and after the warp-in you have either 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers or 1 Zealot and 6 Stalkers.
Genius micros poorly and gets himself supply blocked, but if you stop at 20 probes that doesn't happen. 6 Stalkers also 2-shots enemy Stalkers and 3-shots enemy Zealots so... yeah. Very strong build.
|
On December 01 2010 07:15 Retgery wrote:
When are we gonna stop the cheese, and figure out some solid macro strategies?
What is Cheese about 5 zealots and 6 stalkers at 6:30? I can have a forge and cannons in your base before that. Now thats cheese huh.
I really despise thise these kind of posts listen to the newest SOTG Incontrol says that the whats cool about all these all-ins in regards to korean ladder is that it spawns macro and crazy timing builds. You take the base build and expand upon it no one is holding your hand making you use these strategies and if you lose to them thats your fault cause you said before the game I want to play a 10 minute game. If you lost its cause you didn't prepare.
TLDR
I can 4 gate all day long every game but that doesnt mean I have to push and therefore Im not all in I'm not cheesing? No one is making you push with any of these builds or push to kill. Hell you can push to pressure with these. If you use a all-in build you did that on your own. How you use it is totally up you not every build - insta win many dont actually come to think of it non-of them do.
|
So, what's the current status of this build? I haven't seen it yet on the teamliquid strategy wiki pages...
|
Well since this is an allin, it would be more aggressive than the 4 gate, because 4 gate isnt allin. I don't get where all these people get the idea that 4 gate is allin.
|
is it possible to deal with 2 gate (zealots) with this build?
|
Did he say he got the warpgate tech? Imo not neccesary if your going for an early all in. Just go three gate and a cyber and pump out zealots untill your cyber is done and then transfer to stalkers.
|
On December 25 2010 19:21 JasinAli wrote:
Did he say he got the warpgate tech? Imo not neccesary if your going for an early all in. Just go three gate and a cyber and pump out zealots untill your cyber is done and then transfer to stalkers.
Of course you need the warpgate... you want to build a pylon in front of their base to get the reinforcements ASAP. PvP with out Warpgate is just stupid.
|
On December 25 2010 18:57 rexyrex wrote:
is it possible to deal with 2 gate (zealots) with this build?
If they 10gate and you don't scout then you're screwed, and if you defend initial 2 zealots and don't change your BO then you're screwed.
EDIT: After lots of experimentation, I found that this build is a lot safer than I thought against 10gating protoss. I still doubt it can hold up against a 2gate all-in without some build order compromises, but if it's possible to hold off until you get your stalker out then it might be possible.
|
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to execute this build properly if you send a scout at 9 (assuming it either dies or continues scouting--nevertheless not returning to continue mining). I'm using carbontwelve's optimizer which has a setting to account for the scouting worker, and the b/o gets completely screwy if you still insist on getting 1nexus 2assimilators 3gates 5zealots and 8stalkers. Here is what it looks like (optimized by 150 million games):
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
11 Chrono Nexus
12 Chrono Nexus
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator
15 Chrono Nexus
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
18 Gateway
19 Move Probe To Gas
19 Zealot
21 Move Probe To Gas
22 Gateway
22 Move Probe To Gas
23 Warp Gate Transformation
23 Pylon
23 Chrono Cybernetics Core
24 Zealot
26 Chrono Cybernetics Core
26 Assimilator
26 Stalker
28 Zealot
30 Pylon
30 Stalker
32 Move Probe To Gas
33 Move Probe To Gas
33 Zealot
36 Stalker
38 Chrono Gateway
38 Stalker
40 Pylon
40 Zealot
42 Chrono Gateway
42 Move Probe To Gas
42 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
42 Chrono Warp Gate
42 Stalker
44 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
44 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
44 Stalker
46 Stalker
48 Stalker
Thoughts, anyone?
|
On November 24 2010 05:03 whoopadeedoo wrote:
This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW.
Someone didn't play much starcraft in its first year, did they? There's actually a lot LESS cheese in SC2 right now than there was in SC1 back then, because the general concepts on how to stop cheese are known. Everyone as every race did the fastest rush they could, or didnt play melee games because "all that matters is rushing" It was the point that most low level players did no-rush 5-10-whatever minute games because it made the game more interesting, rather than being super super short.
|
Why does everyone assume a quick hard pressure push at the start is a cheesy all-in? With this build you can go in and put on serious pressure, possibly win. But its not like your totally fucked if you don't end the game right away.
|
On January 18 2011 10:01 dmillz wrote:
Why does everyone assume a quick hard pressure push at the start is a cheesy all-in? With this build you can go in and put on serious pressure, possibly win. But its not like your totally fucked if you don't end the game right away.
The general consensus on TL right now is ... YOU'RE BUILDING PROBES/SCVS/DRONES? That's an all in!
|
On November 24 2010 02:45 darmousseh wrote:Here you go, here is a 2 warpgate robo build where you can have 24 probes, 4 zealots, 2 stalkers, 2 sentries, and 2 immortals to deal with a lot of early pressure builds. This is after 300m games. + Show Spoiler +
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:06.13: 75M 0G 20E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 89M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:17.65: 111M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 180M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:35.83: 205M 0G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:40.09: 100M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:40.09: 0M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:40.09: 0M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:45.82: 50M 8G 17E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
2:45.82: 0M 8G 17E 18/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
3:05.09: 188M 45G 28E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:05.09: 138M 45G 28E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:05.09: 138M 45G 28E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:22.09: 295M 96G 38E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:22.09: 245M 96G 38E 20/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:25.83: 181M 107G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:39.09: 262M 97G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
3:40.01: 222M 100G 48E 23/ 26S - Build Robotics Facility
3:56.09: 184M 48G 57E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
3:57.61: 150M 53G 58E 24/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:13.16: 167M 100G 66E 24/ 26S - Build Sentry
4:13.16: 117M 0G 66E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:20.65: 100M 23G 70E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:20.65: 0M 23G 70E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:20.65: 0M 23G 45E 26/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
4:45.01: 265M 110G 59E 26/ 34S - Build Immortal
4:48.16: 50M 21G 61E 30/ 42S - Build Probe
4:57.09: 100M 53G 66E 31/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:06.02: 100M 85G 71E 33/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:06.02: 0M 85G 71E 35/ 42S - Move Probe To Minerals
5:10.13: 50M 98G 73E 35/ 42S - Build Probe
5:18.24: 100M 122G 78E 36/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:35.83: 215M 175G 88E 36/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 215M 175G 88E 36/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
5:35.83: 215M 175G 63E 36/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:38.66: 250M 185G 64E 36/ 42S - Build Immortal
5:45.83: 88M 111G 68E 40/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:45.83: 88M 111G 68E 40/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
5:45.83: 88M 111G 43E 40/ 50S - Build Sentry
5:52.49: 121M 35G 47E 42/ 50S - Build Zealot
5:52.49: 21M 35G 47E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:57.56: 83M 53G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Robotics Facility
6:11.16: 251M 102G 8E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:11.16: 126M 52G 8E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:16.16: 63M 20G 10E 48/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 2 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Robotics Facility
Units: 24 Probe 4 Zealot 2 Stalker 2 Sentry 2 Immortal
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation
Sorry, I havent read thru the whole thread yet cos its quite long so forgive me if someone has commented already....but is this build finally a counter to the 4WG??!!
|
the post above me sounds too good to be true :D
will definitely be trying that out.
as for the op, this build would never work against me. My 4gate finishes at 5:25 with a zealot and stalker out before that. Thats 1 z 1s + 2 batches of warp ins = 10 units ready before this build hits, not to mention 1 sentry would ruin this entire build.
|
This is only marginally more units than a conventional allin 4gate would give you, with less ability to reinforce. I don't think it's worth it.
|
i like how the replay for this build is someone who does this build against a very easy ai protoss...when he attacks the ai, they ai has 8 harvesters, a gate and a forge somewhere around the 6-8 min mark. hardly a convincing replay.
however, the build looks convincing as you could probably warp in zealots near the enemy base to cut down on zealot traveling time, making the rush even more effective.
|
I was wondering whether or not this could be easily transitioned into a 6 gate attack against zerg. Do the same build, pressure / push the zerg base but don't over commit. Throw down expo as well as 3 more gates and continue a normal 6 gate push. Or would the probe count be too low and make this ineffective.
|
On January 26 2011 21:03 Mitchlew wrote:
I was wondering whether or not this could be easily transitioned into a 6 gate attack against zerg. Do the same build, pressure / push the zerg base but don't over commit. Throw down expo as well as 3 more gates and continue a normal 6 gate push. Or would the probe count be too low and make this ineffective.
If you're talking pressure/push the zerg why don't just execute the 3warpgate expand or a variation of it? You'll have the option to pressure if you want and you'll have the probe count to continue on to mid/late game with the ability to tech to robo or stargate.
If you're commiting to a 4 gate and you want it to actually to do damage, why half ass it? Just do an actual 4gate. Disguise it well and it's insanely strong and will kill or cripple most zergs.
When I see a 4gate, the mentality of zerg is 'defend this, and I win'. And most of the time it's true. Once the 4gate is defended and the forward pylon is destroyed, ALL ZERGS will counter attack with zerglings/roaches. Game is basically over. Toss has zero map control, low probe count and no tech. If you try to expand and transition out of a 4gate (which will hinder your 4gate, which results in a lower chance of success), you're just going to die to ling/roaches counter or the zerg will just expand once more and you'll get raped in lategame.
|
i am tagging this thread.
|
Wow, 8 stalkers 5 zealots at 6:15, I'm pretty sure that would destroy me (zerg) unless I manage to take out their pylon before it could get started. I think I'm going to design my build order and scouting around it tonight before I ladder.
|
I tried this but have had none success. It's really easily scoutable and the opponent only makes def.
Zerg only needs 3 spines and some speedlings to kill this type of build.
Terran needs bunkers and their usual MM to def
And Protoss only needs some FF and its game.
This is so much all-in that if u fail its GG.
Sorry but I don't recommend it imo
|
just tried to work on my zerg build vs this and can do it but its hairy for 30 or so seconds heh. tough build to counter.
|
On February 05 2011 02:28 NabBoy wrote:
I tried this but have had none success. It's really easily scoutable and the opponent only makes def.
Zerg only needs 3 spines and some speedlings to kill this type of build.
Terran needs bunkers and their usual MM to def
And Protoss only needs some FF and its game.
This is so much all-in that if u fail its GG.
Sorry but I don't recommend it imo
It's bad vs protoss except vs 4 gates since it hits earlier and can really fuck up a player who's been cutting economy. Caveat: Reinforcing will be weaker, so you have to kill his small forces early and kite as you reinforce. It's not impossible by any means.
Terran bunkers only help if they've got a wall. Otherwise I'll walk right past it pylon in base rape your scvs and kill the bunkered units when they're forced to leave.
Zerg you're right, but it's not allin seeing as though you can expand and tech if you realise it's not working.
PvP it fails you're done gg. just like virtually every other pvp build
If fail vs terran you can expand and tech
If fail vs zerg you might want to delay expo and watch your ramp as you tech before expo.
The trick is not to keep wasting units which is stupid in its own right
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
