EPT5 Zealot 8 Stalker rush - Page 7
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On November 25 2010 02:23 Barook wrote: You probably mean something like this: + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:33.85: 174M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 1:37.08: 150M 0G 3E 13/ 18S - Build Gateway 1:45.19: 64M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe 1:52.11: 75M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Assimilator 1:59.19: 63M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe 2:08.12: 100M 0G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon 2:15.33: 67M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 2:15.90: 72M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe 2:22.11: 85M 0G 4E 16/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas 2:27.24: 135M 4G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe 2:40.19: 221M 13G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe 2:42.08: 191M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core 2:42.08: 41M 14G 15E 18/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas 2:57.19: 194M 35G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe 3:14.19: 333M 59G 33E 19/ 26S - Build Probe 3:14.19: 283M 59G 33E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas 3:24.78: 400M 79G 39E 20/ 26S - Build Nexus 3:31.19: 68M 91G 43E 20/ 26S - Build Probe 3:32.08: 27M 93G 43E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 3:34.20: 50M 97G 19E 21/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation 3:47.59: 150M 72G 27E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:00.68: 150M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:00.68: 0M 97G 34E 21/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 4:04.93: 50M 105G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Probe 4:13.30: 100M 121G 16E 22/ 26S - Build Pylon 4:21.93: 102M 138G 21E 22/ 26S - Build Probe 4:28.67: 137M 150G 25E 23/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 4:29.71: 150M 152G 1E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:38.93: 114M 170G 6E 23/ 34S - Build Probe 4:43.60: 125M 179G 8E 24/ 34S - Build Stalker 4:55.93: 166M 152G 15E 26/ 34S - Build Probe 4:56.59: 125M 153G 16E 27/ 34S - Build Stalker 5:04.78: 112M 119G 20E 29/ 44S - Build Probe 5:07.35: 100M 124G 22E 30/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:12.93: 83M 135G 25E 32/ 44S - Build Probe 5:21.78: 171M 151G 30E 33/ 44S - Build Probe 5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:25.60: 182M 159G 32E 34/ 44S - Chrono Gateway 5:35.60: 349M 178G 13E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:38.76: 404M 184G 14E 34/ 44S - Build Stalker 5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:45.60: 400M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Pylon 5:45.60: 300M 147G 18E 36/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:45.60: 200M 147G 18E 38/ 44S - Build Zealot 5:49.22: 162M 153G 20E 40/ 44S - Chrono Gateway 5:53.47: 235M 162G 23E 40/ 44S - Build Zealot 6:10.76: 442M 194G 32E 42/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 368M 150G 34E 44/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 243M 100G 34E 46/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:13.60: 118M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:13.97: 125M 50G 34E 48/ 52S - Build Stalker 6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas 6:13.97: 0M 0G 34E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Gas Waypoint 1 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1071M 114G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S - Move Probe To Minerals Waypoint 2 satisfied: 6:18.97: 89M 10G 37E 50/ 52S Income: 1110M 84G Buildings: 2 Nexus 1 Assimilator 4 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 28 Probe 4 Zealot 7 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation But that's just something I quickly threw together - feel free to optimize the probe and unit count with additional waypoints. Uh, I think this build tells you to get a 20nex without building a single unit (and not for another minute and twenty seconds after the nex). Not exactly what people are looking for, I think. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 25 2010 03:36 Jayrod wrote: Honestly, this post.. these builds.... are the reason protoss is so hard to balance right now. I really wish people would use the 4 gate as one of many tools rather than being 1 trick ponies. All-ins that sacrifice a ton of probes are not 'tools' unless you're in a tournament and trying to throw your opponent off. | ||
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antas
Indonesia300 Posts
On November 24 2010 21:00 goldenwitch wrote: 4 gate generally has 8 units at 6 minutes antas other benchmarks - At 5:30 you should be scouting for a roach rush if you FE'd as toss in pvz. At 5:30 the 2 marines 1 marauder timing poke is halfway to your base on most maps. At 7:00, if you suspect DTs you should have detection started. At 8:30, you should be prepared for mutas if you haven't pressured zerg at all. Hope that helps put this in perspective <3 Hi, thanks for giving some comparison. I didn't compare the OP build with 4 gates since I love doing blink stalkers opening in PvP, it's quite versatile IMO. I agree that scouting is really the key here. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
PvP: I went undefeated, it was laughably easy no matter what they did. I never went up against a 1gate robo, but I managed to beat everything from 2gate rush, to standard 4gate, to 3gate blink. Nobody tried FE against me either, but I'm certain that is suicidal. Since this is a PvP build, these results make me happy, but I tried it in other matchups as well: PvZ: The build was pretty bad. You don't gain anything from the quicker push, and no sentries hurts a lot. I tried getting much earlier gas to add sentries into the build, but then it just kind of turned into a regular 4gate. It can win if they expand or tech too quickly, but most other builds can apply more consistent pressure. PvT: I'm not dumb enough to try this against a turtling terran, so I usually ended up transposing into 3gate robo. One time I went 2gate stargate. If they weren't getting tech labs on their barracks, I would try to break them, and sometimes succeed (like fast banshees are suicide against this build), but overall I think there are way more effective pushes against terran. So, summary: Pretty good in PvP I think, not very good elsewhere. You have the option of bringing your probes to all-in or expanding behind the pressure, which is cool too. I'll definitely be using it from now on. | ||
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benjaminethanlim
Singapore25 Posts
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On November 30 2010 09:12 Cel.erity wrote: My thoughts after playing about 50 ladder games with this build (I did it against all races and all maps): PvP: I went undefeated, it was laughably easy no matter what they did. I never went up against a 1gate robo, but I managed to beat everything from 2gate rush, to standard 4gate, to 3gate blink. Nobody tried FE against me either, but I'm certain that is suicidal. Since this is a PvP build, these results make me happy, but I tried it in other matchups as well: PvZ: The build was pretty bad. You don't gain anything from the quicker push, and no sentries hurts a lot. I tried getting much earlier gas to add sentries into the build, but then it just kind of turned into a regular 4gate. It can win if they expand or tech too quickly, but most other builds can apply more consistent pressure. PvT: I'm not dumb enough to try this against a turtling terran, so I usually ended up transposing into 3gate robo. One time I went 2gate stargate. If they weren't getting tech labs on their barracks, I would try to break them, and sometimes succeed (like fast banshees are suicide against this build), but overall I think there are way more effective pushes against terran. So, summary: Pretty good in PvP I think, not very good elsewhere. You have the option of bringing your probes to all-in or expanding behind the pressure, which is cool too. I'll definitely be using it from now on. I tried this build in PvT as well with decent success vs teching or FE builds. By waiting another minute or so, getting a sentry to stop repair and a couple more zealots to break a bunker at the ramp I found it quite easy to kill the terran who massed marines for banshees or a thor push. If you scout bio, abandon this build and transition into a normal FE, 2 gate robo or whichever build you favor. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
 I'm still not 100% happy with the Zerg or Protoss modules, but figured I should work on a Terran one sooner given that the Protoss and Zerg are at least functional. I haven't read all the thread yet, so if there are any issues or people have any questions please feel free to post in the thread for the app or send me a PM. | ||
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nozick
United States26 Posts
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=170241 He ended up doing a similar 3 gate build, but mine ended up being faster, so I pushed him back and contained him. I decided to transition to DTs, since I figured he had no detection and I have not had time to think of any better transitions. Ends up being a DT battle, but it was a fun game and the build has some potential. As far as a 1v1 build there are some issues outlined by a lot of folks, but it is definitely viable. I actually think it would be a stellar 2v2 build. I have been doing some warpgate rushes on a pz team, but I think this ends up being more stable and is something I am going to try out. | ||
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patron
United States63 Posts
Target: 26 probes, 5 Zealots, 7 Stalkers (50/50 food) + 3 warpgate 9 Pylon (1) 13 Gateway (2) 15 Assimilator (1) - Saturate with 3 probes immediately 15 Pylon (2) 18 Cybernetics Core (1) 18 Gateway (2) 19 Gateway (3) 20 -begin researching Warpgate technology and Chronoboost 20 Zealot (1) **Time: 3:30** 23 Pylon (3) 24 Zealot (2) 26 Zealot (3) 28 Zealot (4) **Time: 4:30** 31 Stalker (1) 36 Stalker (2) 38 Stalker (3) 40 Pylon **Transform Gateways ASAP** Warp-in Stalkers as gas allows, and Zealots when you cannot afford stalkers from here on out Build Completion: 6:05 Realistically: Under 6:30 However, obvious weaknesses of this build are as follows: 1. Unable to quickly dispatch of scouting worker 2. Very weak to a 2 gate Zealot rush or even a chronoboosted 10 Gate 3. Not enough gas for Sentries It seems like a decent "get out of bronze free" card, however this is clearly not a diamond level build, and the numbers HuK used are completely arbitrary. | ||
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Ashera
Canada202 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On December 01 2010 04:00 patron wrote: Here is an improved build I found after using a lot of tweaking with the C12 app. HuK's numbers seemed arbitrary, so I decided to see what I could manage when I played with the food and gas dependance, etc, and here is a build I found optimized after over a billion games, which has reached 95% likelihood of completion. Target: 26 probes, 5 Zealots, 7 Stalkers (50/50 food) + 3 warpgate 9 Pylon (1) 13 Gateway (2) 15 Assimilator (1) - Saturate with 3 probes immediately 15 Pylon (2) 18 Cybernetics Core (1) 18 Gateway (2) 19 Gateway (3) 20 -begin researching Warpgate technology and Chronoboost 20 Zealot (1) **Time: 3:30** 23 Pylon (3) 24 Zealot (2) 26 Zealot (3) 28 Zealot (4) **Time: 4:30** 31 Stalker (1) 36 Stalker (2) 38 Stalker (3) 40 Pylon **Transform Gateways ASAP** Warp-in Stalkers as gas allows, and Zealots when you cannot afford stalkers from here on out Build Completion: 6:05 Realistically: Under 6:30 However, obvious weaknesses of this build are as follows: 1. Unable to quickly dispatch of scouting worker 2. Very weak to a 2 gate Zealot rush or even a chronoboosted 10 Gate 3. Not enough gas for Sentries It seems like a decent "get out of bronze free" card, however this is clearly not a diamond level build, and the numbers HuK used are completely arbitrary. You think a build that gets you 5 zealots and 8 stalkers by 6:30 is clearly not a diamond level build because it has problems with 10 gate and 2 gate? Thats like saying 1 base collo is a get out of bronze free card because it loses to cannon rush. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:17 CarbonTwelve wrote: Just wanted to chime in and say that it's awesome to hear people using the app I wrote to come up with these build orders I'm still not 100% happy with the Zerg or Protoss modules, but figured I should work on a Terran one sooner given that the Protoss and Zerg are at least functional. I haven't read all the thread yet, so if there are any issues or people have any questions please feel free to post in the thread for the app or send me a PM.No disrespect, but they aren't. The guy that used it had a build that had no protection and required 2 nexus to get this timing. It literally makes no sense. Alot of TLers overuse these types of tools and end up just lacking game sense. Im pretty sure the koreans came up with this build and someone used your calculator to try to take it when they could have just figured it out from watching a rep or two | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On November 25 2010 14:16 GoldenH wrote: All-ins that sacrifice a ton of probes are not 'tools' unless you're in a tournament and trying to throw your opponent off. No thats not the point im making at all. Builds like this just prove how powerful the 4 gate really is...it limits blizzards abilities to balance because those of us that are hitting that 'protoss wall' for lack of a better term can't use it outside of a series type situation and the lower skill players that aren't protoss are finding it near impossible to beat. Its like how that 2 thor push is the bane of platinum protoss players. I havent lost to Janook's 2 thor push in forever because my opener allows me to easily stop it, but I can see why so many struggle with this powerful timing. It makes it hard to buff any of the units involved for terran because its so powerful. Same idea about the power of the 4 gate. A 4 gate all-in is a lot more effective than some 6 pool or proxy barracks even against good players. The good players arent the ones preventing balance though. Its the lower level people that can't stop these builds that many higher level people find easy to stop when scouted. I could play vs a platinum or mid-diamond player, state that im 4 gating, 4 gate them and completely stomp them because its difficult to stop without good control and an airtight response. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On December 01 2010 04:16 Jayrod wrote: No disrespect, but they aren't. The guy that used it had a build that had no protection and required 2 nexus to get this timing. It literally makes no sense. Hmm? The build in the OP uses my app, and only has 1 Nexus. Alot of TLers overuse these types of tools and end up just lacking game sense. Im pretty sure the koreans came up with this build and someone used your calculator to try to take it when they could have just figured it out from watching a rep or two I'm not saying he invented the build order or anything, but being able to use the app to generate a build order for that target both could save you a lot of practice time, and could find a build order slightly faster than what the Koreans were using. I'm also not saying the results from my app should be taken blindly or anything, but there have been a few people in this thread who have used the build order to great success. Incidentally, I was running the test myself and the build order it has atm is 2s slower but has 4 warpgates instead. Possibly worth the slight delay. + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 1:31.19: 153M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:31.19: 153M 0G 0E 12/ 18S - Build Assimilator 1:33.85: 97M 0G 2E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 1:45.19: 142M 0G 8E 13/ 18S - Build Probe 1:51.63: 150M 0G 12E 14/ 18S - Build Gateway 1:59.19: 65M 0G 16E 14/ 18S - Build Probe 2:01.19: 32M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas 2:08.55: 100M 5G 21E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon 2:08.55: 0M 5G 21E 15/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas 2:15.33: 53M 13G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 2:15.90: 58M 14G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Probe 2:27.24: 109M 28G 7E 16/ 18S - Build Probe 2:27.24: 59M 28G 7E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas 2:40.19: 178M 53G 14E 17/ 26S - Build Probe 2:56.63: 289M 84G 23E 18/ 26S - Build Cybernetics Core 2:57.19: 145M 85G 24E 18/ 26S - Build Probe 2:59.78: 119M 90G 25E 19/ 26S - Chrono Nexus 3:09.38: 216M 108G 5E 19/ 26S - Build Probe 3:21.19: 297M 131G 12E 20/ 26S - Build Probe 3:21.19: 247M 131G 12E 21/ 26S - Build Zealot 3:21.49: 150M 131G 12E 23/ 26S - Build Gateway 3:38.19: 190M 163G 22E 23/ 26S - Build Probe 3:39.06: 150M 165G 22E 24/ 26S - Build Gateway 3:46.63: 88M 179G 26E 24/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core 3:46.63: 88M 179G 1E 24/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation 3:55.19: 143M 145G 6E 24/ 26S - Build Probe 3:55.79: 100M 147G 7E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon 4:07.92: 150M 170G 13E 25/ 26S - Build Gateway 4:12.19: 53M 178G 16E 25/ 26S - Build Probe 4:20.79: 114M 194G 21E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot 4:29.02: 125M 210G 25E 28/ 34S - Build Stalker 4:44.06: 205M 188G 34E 30/ 34S - Build Zealot 4:44.06: 105M 188G 34E 32/ 34S - Build Pylon 4:58.79: 204M 216G 42E 32/ 34S - Build Zealot 5:11.02: 272M 240G 49E 34/ 42S - Build Stalker 5:11.02: 147M 190G 49E 36/ 42S - Build Pylon 5:16.85: 125M 201G 52E 36/ 42S - Build Stalker 5:26.05: 125M 168G 57E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker 5:26.05: 0M 118G 57E 40/ 42S - Chrono Gateway 5:36.79: 147M 138G 38E 40/ 50S - Build Zealot 5:36.79: 47M 138G 38E 42/ 50S - Chrono Gateway 5:57.56: 331M 178G 25E 42/ 50S - Chrono Gateway 5:57.56: 331M 178G 0E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:58.05: 337M 179G 0E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 5:58.85: 348M 180G 1E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 6:02.38: 396M 187G 3E 42/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate 6:07.56: 467M 197G 6E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker 6:08.05: 349M 148G 6E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker 6:08.85: 235M 99G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker 6:08.85: 110M 49G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:08.85: 110M 49G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals 6:09.92: 125M 50G 7E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker 6:09.92: 0M 0G 7E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas 6:09.92: 0M 0G 7E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas Waypoint 1 satisfied: 6:14.92: 68M 10G 10E 50/ 50S Income: 820M 114G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Assimilator 5 Pylon 4 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:03 whoopadeedoo wrote: This what I was afraid of starting in beta. SC2 is going to come down to optimized, complicated rush builds with all the new mechanics. When these become the strat de jour, a natural counter will become the other strat de jour until another gimmicky build comes along and starts a new cycle. The more I play SC2, the more I'm realizing the game play is fatally flawed compared to BW. Apparently you missed the evolution of Starcraft in the first couple years... The expectation for SC2 to already have all of these completely standardized BOs and constant macro games is ridiculous. You can't really make a good RTS that isn't going to have powerful rushes that take people time to learn how to stop. A good RTS is going to have constantly evolving strategies and build orders... were you not around when SC1 was in its early days? | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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