5 Zealot 8 Stalker rush - Page 3

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ForTheDr3am

842 Posts

November 23 2010 16:26 GMT

#41

Wouldn't it be better to have 20 probes so you can build a proxy pylon while having 16 on minerals and 3 on gas?

GHOSTCLAW

United States17042 Posts

November 23 2010 16:30 GMT

#42

sneaky....PvP It looks good, not so good for PvT or PvZ, I'll play around with it on ladder. I'm not convinced that you can get out enough sentries to block your ramp for long enough, but you don't really have any probes for any transitions, just like all of the other korean builds >.>

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

November 23 2010 16:36 GMT

#43

On November 24 2010 00:39 citi.zen wrote:
I love the deceptive look. A fast two gate rush or korean 4 gate is very easily scoutable, but a gas + 14 gate makes you think econ/tech. I bet most people would open robo in response to that, which is exactly what you want with this build. Sneaky!

I'm not sure I would conclude that. By the time he gets a stalker out to kill my initial probe scout and I see only 1 gas I would be quite suspicious of a gateway push. In fact even moreso with this BO since you would likely be able to spot all 3 gateways before his first stalker is out, unless he proxies some gateways outside his base (which might not be a bad idea at all).

I'm not sure this is the build huk is talking about. It only comes 10 secs earlier but at the cost of 1 additional gateway than a standard 4 WG? Doesn't really seem like a worthwhile trade.

Barook

Germany143 Posts

November 23 2010 16:42 GMT

#44

When do people learn to use Carbon Twelve's tool properly? Don't rely on the worker count it gives you.

Your probe count is terrible - 24 probes can be done as well with one lousy second delay:

+ Show Spoiler +

0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 166M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.33: 166M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:17.65: 88M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 151M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:31.80: 131M 0G 9E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:35.83: 174M 3G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.80: 93M 8G 15E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:48.22: 100M 11G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Zealot
2:48.22: 0M 11G 18E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:59.80: 122M 28G 25E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:06.86: 150M 38G 29E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:16.80: 105M 52G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 160M 64G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:29.24: 150M 19G 42E 22/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:38.05: 100M 31G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:42.16: 50M 37G 49E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
3:42.16: 0M 37G 49E 25/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:50.66: 100M 53G 54E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:59.16: 95M 69G 58E 25/ 26S - Build Probe
3:59.16: 45M 69G 58E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:15.66: 247M 101G 43E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:16.16: 153M 102G 43E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:19.16: 140M 107G 45E 29/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:19.16: 140M 107G 20E 29/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:23.78: 100M 116G 22E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:34.24: 129M 136G 28E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.53: 75M 96G 31E 33/ 34S - Build Assimilator
4:53.66: 188M 123G 39E 33/ 42S - Build Stalker
4:53.66: 63M 73G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
4:57.16: 110M 80G 16E 35/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:00.12: 50M 85G 18E 37/ 42S - Build Probe
5:16.24: 217M 116G 27E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:16.82: 100M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:25.83: 105M 99G 32E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 226M 121G 43E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 101M 71G 43E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
6:04.90: 336M 139G 4E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 247M 100G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:08.04: 125M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:13.04: 62M 18G 9E 50/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation

That's after 160 million games. Basically the same result in terms of army speed, but with 5 more probes.

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

November 23 2010 16:50 GMT

#45

How does this build fare against your standard korean 4 gate (1st gate at 10 supply)? Does anyone know the timings for that?

MassHysteria

United States3678 Posts

November 23 2010 16:53 GMT

#46

Seems like a pretty strong all-in, something I been thinking of lately (bringing probes with the gate push). Might try it out but it does seem like a 4KG could be fast enough to take this build out, if executed properly..

dAko

Switzerland18 Posts

November 23 2010 16:54 GMT

#47

I aswell would like to see a replay achieving that 6:15 mark, im not even close in the actual game.

Fenneth

Australia354 Posts

November 23 2010 17:00 GMT

#48

oh my god i don't like the sound of this at all

gwombat

Singapore40 Posts

November 23 2010 17:02 GMT

#49

wait, so are you supposed to bring your probes to the fight too?

aghull

46 Posts

November 23 2010 17:03 GMT

#50

On November 24 2010 01:23 Pitsot wrote:
14 gate is dangerous in case if opponent goes 2 gate pressure or 10 gate & chrono zealots, but gas before gate is not a bad idea. I use it when I want to get many sentries early on.

This. Right now I always 10-gate PvP just to have the ability to ward off cheese OR put some early zealot pressure, especially on timing builds like this. While this build is very refined, there are surely near infinite builds for all races that sacrifice defense to peak at one specific time. (Zerg already know all about this.) Constant scouting and pressure are the only answers.

It's true that the 11 gas, 14 gateway look like a tech build, but if I scout that, I don't think to myself "safe to 2-gate robo expand" - I think "ATTACK!" I don't want to see what cool tech you have in store. I prefer to prevent it. The fact that it's not a tech doesn't change the fact that it's a 14-gate with no early defense. You could have 3 zealots in their base around the time their first one pops if they don't alter their plans, which of course any reasonable player would be forced to do once you play your hand.

darmousseh

United States3437 Posts

November 23 2010 17:06 GMT

#51

I've come accross some builds like this, the best way I've felt to deal with it is 2 gate robo with a bunch of sentries. Get 4 sentries out and forcefield that ramp, then start making zealots and immortals. On close positions this might not be enough time, so going 3 gate robo might be better to stop it. Sentries are the key to the initial stop and immortals are the best way to counter. Immortals are only countered by void rays and phoenix and you are not likely to see those in pvp (blink is pretty good i guess too). Get 4 sentries, get some zealots and start making immortals. Immortal dps is much better than 2 stalkers so it will hold pretty well. I gotta do the timings later to see.

Gecko

United States519 Posts

November 23 2010 17:09 GMT

#52

The build that the optimizer made has only 3 warpgates but gets out a lot of units really fast. If a normal 4gate held this off it would certainly pull ahead and win the game :/. I prefer a 1gas 4gate but 2gas for sentries might be better if you scout this.

Cyber_Cheese

Australia3615 Posts

November 23 2010 17:45 GMT

#53

On November 24 2010 01:42 Barook wrote:
When do people learn to use Carbon Twelve's tool properly? Don't rely on the worker count it gives you.

Your probe count is terrible - 24 probes can be done as well with one lousy second delay:

+ Show Spoiler +

That's after 160 million games. Basically the same result in terms of army speed, but with 5 more probes.

simplified
+ Show Spoiler +

3x starting nexus chrono
2x ccore chrono
rest on gate/warpgates production
gateways->warps asap (obviously)

9 Pylon
12 Gateway
15 Assimilator, one probe gas asap
15 Pylon
17 2x gas probes now total
17 Core
18 Zealot
20 Third gas probe
21 Gateway
22 Research Warp Gate
22 Gateway
22 Zealot
25 Move Probe To Gas (for some reason, looking through carbons thread, ignore this bad design choice, stay on 3 @ gas)
25 Pylon
26 Zealot
29 Zealot
31 Pylon
31 Stalker
33 Assimilator (Instantly fill it)
33 Stalker
35 Zealot
38 Stalker
40 Pylon
40 Stalker
42 Stalker
44 Stalker
46 Stalker
48 Stalker

ends with you 50/50 so fit another pylon or so in too

darmousseh

United States3437 Posts

November 23 2010 17:45 GMT

#54

Here you go, here is a 2 warpgate robo build where you can have 24 probes, 4 zealots, 2 stalkers, 2 sentries, and 2 immortals to deal with a lot of early pressure builds. This is after 300m games.

+ Show Spoiler +

0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:06.13: 75M 0G 20E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 89M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:17.65: 111M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 180M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:35.83: 205M 0G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:40.09: 100M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:40.09: 0M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:40.09: 0M 0G 14E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:45.82: 50M 8G 17E 17/ 18S - Build Probe
2:45.82: 0M 8G 17E 18/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
3:05.09: 188M 45G 28E 18/ 26S - Build Probe
3:05.09: 138M 45G 28E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:05.09: 138M 45G 28E 19/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:22.09: 295M 96G 38E 19/ 26S - Build Probe
3:22.09: 245M 96G 38E 20/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:25.83: 181M 107G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:39.09: 262M 97G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Probe
3:40.01: 222M 100G 48E 23/ 26S - Build Robotics Facility
3:56.09: 184M 48G 57E 23/ 26S - Build Probe
3:57.61: 150M 53G 58E 24/ 26S - Build Gateway
4:13.16: 167M 100G 66E 24/ 26S - Build Sentry
4:13.16: 117M 0G 66E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:20.65: 100M 23G 70E 26/ 26S - Build Pylon
4:20.65: 0M 23G 70E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:20.65: 0M 23G 45E 26/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
4:45.01: 265M 110G 59E 26/ 34S - Build Immortal
4:48.16: 50M 21G 61E 30/ 42S - Build Probe
4:57.09: 100M 53G 66E 31/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:06.02: 100M 85G 71E 33/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:06.02: 0M 85G 71E 35/ 42S - Move Probe To Minerals
5:10.13: 50M 98G 73E 35/ 42S - Build Probe
5:18.24: 100M 122G 78E 36/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:35.83: 215M 175G 88E 36/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 215M 175G 88E 36/ 42S - Chrono Robotics Facility
5:35.83: 215M 175G 63E 36/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:38.66: 250M 185G 64E 36/ 42S - Build Immortal
5:45.83: 88M 111G 68E 40/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:45.83: 88M 111G 68E 40/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
5:45.83: 88M 111G 43E 40/ 50S - Build Sentry
5:52.49: 121M 35G 47E 42/ 50S - Build Zealot
5:52.49: 21M 35G 47E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:57.56: 83M 53G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Robotics Facility
6:11.16: 251M 102G 8E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:11.16: 126M 52G 8E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:16.16: 63M 20G 10E 48/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 2 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Robotics Facility
Units: 24 Probe 4 Zealot 2 Stalker 2 Sentry 2 Immortal
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation

goldenwitch

United States338 Posts

November 23 2010 17:47 GMT

#55

I'll update the OP with the optimized version.
Still interested in replays or vods I can add to the OP

Mystix

Canada78 Posts

November 23 2010 18:11 GMT

#56

On November 24 2010 02:02 gwombat wrote:
wait, so are you supposed to bring your probes to the fight too?

Shadrak

United States490 Posts

November 23 2010 18:16 GMT

#57

On November 24 2010 03:11 Mystix wrote:

Show nested quote +

Really? Since its pretty all in why not bring them to the fight?

20 probes=
800 health meat shield
100 damage per volley

It would take 5-6 zealots to equalize that damage/shield which would mean 2 warp gate cycles until you were even. Bringing the probes make more sense to me anyway.

JoeSchmoe

Canada2058 Posts

November 23 2010 18:20 GMT

#58

On November 24 2010 03:16 Shadrak wrote:

Show nested quote +

sure you could but the point is you can bring 10 scvs as T and it's still not an all-in because you have 2 mules mining in your base.

Amui

Canada10567 Posts

November 23 2010 18:31 GMT

#59

That would be absolutely brutal to deal with imo. The only way I can think of to deal with it is to forcefield the ramp completely for 2-3 cycles if he brought probes so your econ advantage can kick in. Otherwise, pulling your own workers is probably neccessary =/. Reinforcement for the other guy is a non-issue for that build because of wg+proxy pylons. Normally at this point in time I have ~60% of what that has, which is rather scary =/

Knickknack

United States1187 Posts

November 23 2010 18:34 GMT

#60

I'd challenge anyone to show an actual replay where they have 8stalker/5zealot around 6:15 with ~19probes instead of just saying the build optimizer says so.

Do these programs even take into account things like the minerals lost from scout probe, probes off minerals to warp buildings? Plus they can add some odd factors such as make all zealots before any stalkers.

From what I have seen of these build optimizers expect to add ~15seconds to a build like this.
So in a real scenario expect 8stalker/5zealot ~6:30, and even slower when you factor in tiny inefficiencies that most will make. Point is, take the build optimizers as a guide to a build, not the final word. Still a strong timing attack, but not the absolute monster of a build one might be lead to believe.

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