On July 21 2010 06:17 Kiburn wrote: ...ALL using the delayed 6 rax build. That is pretty clear evidence that this build is completely viable.
The build isn't viable, just because a build does well in low-diamond ladder matches doesn't mean it's 'viable'. It only works on ladder because anyone who plays him more than once can just counter it. It's a cheese. Making a million marines is never going to be a build that can be used in a tournament situation repeatedly.
There are tons of cheeses where you can get to diamond and win games. How does that make them viable?
In a best of 3 series a Z player can just make banelings and a p player can just forcefield his ramp indefinitely until he gets colossus or templar. A T player can have 2 siege tanks by time this attack hits (you say 1 unsieged tank but that is not true at all. Rushing siege tanks can get you very fast tanks, especially if you go gas first or go 9rax). 2 siege tanks + walled choke would handle this. You could even make a baneling-proof choke (two layers or only production buildings) and set your 2 tanks out of attack range.
Forcefielding does not work, the marines will just wait and then kill you. Anyways the best way I have found is to get stalkers and guardian shield and kite him in the middle of the map. This is definitely a legit build against protoss because a 1gate observer boost will not scout it in time to make adjustments for a 1gate tech build.
On July 21 2010 08:26 ShineShineBear wrote: This is definitely a legit build against protoss because a 1gate observer boost will not scout it in time to make adjustments for a 1gate tech build.
So? In a Bo3 tourney you can't use it twice. I don't really call that legit.
Another thing that's a bitch for mass marines is the P player massing stalkers and being aggressive with stalkers from the get-go. If you micro the stalkers you can just keep picking off marines non-stop. The 2-gate-2-stalker opening is perfect for this.
On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote: this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there.
If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech.
What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build.
i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon.
not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe.
Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas.
even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless.
The great thing about this build is that you don't NEED to get tanks or vikings. You can pump so many marauders soooo quickly compared to the amount of tanks coming out, and marauders already rape tanks, ESPECIALLY with stim. Tanks die so quickly to marauders. This also allows you too completely bypass the viking battle....no air units? nothing for vikings to kill. Land the vikings? Bye bye vikings, here comes armored units' worst enemy: marauders. Banshees? Its ok, I have turrets at my base already (you should have them by then), and I can disregard banshees, because I can bust in with all my marauders, kill whatever units you have, and kill your starport before your one or two banshees can kill ALL my marauders.
The thing is, you make good points, but with this opening, despite people saying I won't have enough money for everything, I'm on 5 raxes total, pumping units from each one and still having enough money left over to throw down a CC, and some turrets. Like i said, its cus
1) no energy wasted on scans 2) late gas=earlier mineral saturation and stockpiled minerals
Now, it was mentioned before, but the late gas means I get a slightly later stim, but honestly, with the sheer number of units I can get, its worth it all.
One of the most important things? Tank/vikings is incredibly immobile (well, the tanks anyway), so I maintain COMPLETE map control from the beginning. I already said I only played about 7 games in mid-high diamond with this, so I'm gonna need to do some more testing, but all 7 games, I was able to EASILY contain him from getting more than one base, cus they just can't move fast enough to defend against stimmed marauders waltzing around the whole map.
that's a good point. i wish replays worked so we can get some concrete evidence.
Replays, I just found out, CAN be viewed...with SC2-All-in-one, downloadable here:
Here are the three games I used this build and remembered to save. These are the FIRST 3 games I played with this build. I was rank 27 Diamond, and all my opponents were Diamond also. The only game where my initial marines were held back, I was playing with the macbook trackpad. I still won that game. Take a look for yourselves.
TO HAGGLERS: I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT THESE REPLAYS DISPLAY THE BEST OR RIGHT WAYS TO PERFORM THIS BUILD SO DON'T COME YELLING THAT THE OPPONENTS DIDN'T DEAL WITH IT PROPERLY YADAYADAYADA~
Here they are:
TvT-with macbook touchpad (only time marines get held back)
TvT-marines
TvP-hardest race to do this against -don't recommend.
EDIT: for those people saying how much money deficit i'll have, look at the replays and note how much money I have left over EVEN while constantly producing from all barracks....this is cus of late gas and constant mules.
On July 21 2010 08:26 ShineShineBear wrote: This is definitely a legit build against protoss because a 1gate observer boost will not scout it in time to make adjustments for a 1gate tech build.
So? In a Bo3 tourney you can't use it twice. I don't really call that legit.
Another thing that's a bitch for mass marines is the P player massing stalkers and being aggressive with stalkers from the get-go. If you micro the stalkers you can just keep picking off marines non-stop. The 2-gate-2-stalker opening is perfect for this.
Actually it has to be at least a 3gate stalker opening due to the number of marines being pumped. I don't think you realize how fast you get a marine army if you don't get tech labs or gas or use three scvs to mine gas. My practice partner has been trying to help me counter this build so I actually have some experience playing against it. I'm having a lot of trouble pressuring with stalkers against that many marines. Most of the time when I fend it off, I usually end up behind. However the stalker pressure might work on Kulas Ravine since there is no ramp. I'm sure there are other ways to defend this but I have yet to try them all. Another problem is that the build can easily be mistaken as a fast expand. The bottomline is that it is definitely possible to beat with really good stalker micro, but you have to know it's coming and it is not too hard for a terran to come out ahead even when you survive,
This is quite possibly the most powerful unique and odd build I have encountered on this site. Yes it is counterable, but the cool thing about this build is that it beats almost every standard build if you do not know it is coming.
If the enemy does know this build is coming, you can actually convert this into a decent opening by getting gas and playing normally. I am really impressed with this build. Here are some counters to this build and how the build can adapt to them.
Counters to this build:
TvT:
Bunkers and either fast tanks, fast banshee, or thor drop Doing an alternate variation of the same build with marauders (marauders beat marines with kiting)
TvZ:
1 Base Roach/Lings 1 Base Ling/Baneling 1 Base Mass Speed Zerlings
TvP
Mass zealot Stalker Kiting (difficult) Mass Cannons (unlikely)
To adapt to any of the counters the terran has to get gas and an engineering bay for detection, switch to marauders against tanks/roach/stalkers, and get hellions against mass zealots or ling/baneling. All of these build adaptations are low gas and easy to switch in to using this build.
On July 19 2010 18:17 Yokoblue wrote: Somebody did something similar to me. Massed marine like crazy... I went for mass stalker and speed to templar... I had just a few templar out.. when he was killing the probes... Too late...
Btw: Stalker get own by marine... Marine shoot faster and cost less so in small number Stalker win but in large number... even with the range marine win... and the attack animation of the stalker make almost imposible to outmicro the marine.
Only speed build to the counter work. 1 other thing that could work is the 2 speed stalker build by 4-5 min. He only have 2-3 marine... if you keep pumping stalker you will win. Only thing I see plausible
EDIT:
And serioustly... Protoss player... WTF... You all say go speed collosus go speed templar... go mass sentry... FF the ramp for eternity... He was in his base at like... 6-7 min with 25 marines... You cant have ANY of all that by that time... and you have to know its coming to have at least 2 sentry at start of the game to max out on energy to FF the ramp for a while...
+ he has constant reinforcements... He had a big line of marine always coming from his base... to the other... without knowing that build is coming.. .you can prevent it... but with all that reinforcements... i think you might not be able to hold it.
someone tried this to me on lost temple last week well laddering ( diamond ) i scouted it a suicide overlord when the wall went up, extended my creep and made 2 spine crawlers on the high ground into my choke and followed it up with speedlings out in the middle of the map... once he pushed and the spines attacked I surronded with the speedlings and sent in 3 banelings and he left the game...
this is SOOOO very easy to counter of you scout I can see how it would catch people off guard though since it really isn't the norm...
then again there's also this: Masq versus White-Ra on Scrap Station. Masq goes 5 barracks marine push Sure White-Ra doesn't play amazingly but he gets destroyed by Masq, while using a pretty standard toss opening build. oG in the aforementioned map played amazingly but I'm not sure if he was suspecting Masq for going mass rines since his match was after this one. In a quick match PvT if the toss isn't suspecting it, I think it'd work well. How many people open with 4 sentries and 1 stalker? And in the match versus Masq that Masq loses, imo he sticks with rines a bit too long - if he had teched gas when he saw how badly the first push was going, match might have been different.
On July 19 2010 08:46 bleh wrote: omg why does everyone do this? Sooooo annoying seeing these threads. I've seen dozens of them.
OK, a new division was created, you were the first one to win a couple of games and it put you in the #1 spot. It has happened to literally thousands of people. Your rank inside of a division means nothing, your point score, while skewed by the low number of games played and the bonus points, will give some kind of indication of where you're actually ranked, for some reason you didn't include that though. hmmmm.
This is an obvious brag thread which you made for absolutely no reason other than to write "I GOT #1 IN DIAMOND LOL!" in a thread title to feel good about yourself.
Insecure you have become, bleh. Angry. Annoyed. A fast path to the darkside such flaming posts are. But stronger, darkside is not. Easier, yes. Not more powerful. Do you judge marines by size? As well as you shouldn't. For their ally is dps. And a strong ally that is.
On July 21 2010 20:11 teamamerica wrote: then again there's also this: Masq versus White-Ra on Scrap Station. Masq goes 5 barracks marine push Sure White-Ra doesn't play amazingly but he gets destroyed by Masq, while using a pretty standard toss opening build. oG in the aforementioned map played amazingly but I'm not sure if he was suspecting Masq for going mass rines since his match was after this one. In a quick match PvT if the toss isn't suspecting it, I think it'd work well. How many people open with 4 sentries and 1 stalker? And in the match versus Masq that Masq loses, imo he sticks with rines a bit too long - if he had teched gas when he saw how badly the first push was going, match might have been different.
When you're FEing then sentries are good since they cost only 50 minerals and can deny many Terran all ins.
probably already discussed but yeah saving 750 minerals to make 5 rax is a bit excess in the 'amount' of time you are letting yourself get outproduced in units before you actually make use of it. besides if he expanded and defended your 5-6 rax push, what are you going to do then?
I tried this build at the end of the beta. If i remember it correctly i won 8/10 games.
I did alter the build though. Instead of just producing 1 marine from the first barracks i kept producing marines the entire time.
After the first few games i changed the build again to adding a gas after the barracks, getting a techlab that was finished about when the second wave of marines came out of the mass barracks.
This will ofcourse delay the push but +150% damage from stim is worth it IMO.
The closest match was versus a 4 gate toss with a lot of sentries (guardian shield reduces the damage a lot).
This build is neither new or unbeatable. I've seen this a lot already, popularized by I believe DeMuslim. The difference with the way Masq does it (also the way proposed in this thread) vs the way DeMuslim does it is that Masq is more aggressive, some would say more cheesy. DeMuslim uses the marines to secure a FE, put some pressure while teching. Masq uses it to try to end the game.
I personally am not a fan of all-in kinds of aggressions so I do favor DeMuslim style a little bit more.
There is a huge window where the Terran is putting down the delayed raxes or they've just been constructed. I've seen DeMuslim lose to a toss who just 1 immortal push. During that time, he only had 2 bunkers and a handful of marines.
I think it's good to know builds like these, if you play them yourself, you realize its weakness and are able to counter it accordingly. Though it is kinda lame to play an all-in rush all the time, starcraft 2 has a huge variety on builds and I'm sure it annoys your opponents too to counter the same rush over and over again. You can probably even get #1 with voidray rush, but you'll get to a point where you play against opponents who know what they are doing and you'll find yourself in a horrible position^^
watch it and wow at Tester fending that off without losing a single unit in the first 40 seconds of that attack.
Tester is just an amazing player. When the game is released I wanna practice mass sentry zealot versus this opening. However the build that Masq did was similar but not the build the OP is referring to. Masq made a fast CC which delays the marines. Also the game was played on Scrap Station. Imagine if he skipped the CC and they were playing on Steppes of War. Now try to defend it. I'm not saying it's not beatable because I have beaten this plenty of times against my practice partner (on LT), but it's really hard to come out ahead and it's so easy for the T to expand and throw down a bunker instead of streaming in reinforcements.
EDIT* Kiburn, against P you should just delay for another round of marines. Basically if you see the fast obs floating around in your base then you know it's a fast robo and just go kill him. If he has sentries then just let him burn out his energy.
Masq v Tester game, Masq does not use the build described in the OP.
He expands after the rax, so really it's just a variation of the 1 rax FE -> 4 rax build that was popular earlier in the beta. The variation of course is that he delays his gas in order to make 5 barracks instead of 4.
OP's build is a 5 rax off of 1 base, it's an all-in build.
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