[D] Simple T build got me to #1 in Diamond

On July 18 2010 15:56 PhiliBiRD wrote:
how do sentries not GG you?
any toss should easily be able to handle mass rine.

On February 24 2010 00:47 zatic wrote:
SC2 Beta Strategy Forum Guidelines

Rule No 1

Everything you say must be supported by evidence

This game is new to all of us. No one outside of Blizzard, and I’d argue no one on the inside either, has a definite answer for every strategy related question for SC2. This game has not been tested out in every detail to the death like BW has. Thus it is extremely important that you back up everything with sound reasoning, a replay, a VOD, anything that supports the point you are making. Your word is not enough - you know just as little about the game as everybody else.

Did he say it was "Brilliant"? Did he say it "can't be scouted"?

People on here just don't like ideas that aren't their own to the point of having to try and prove every hole in someone's strategy. Everyone seems to want to show the superiority of their own builds.

On July 18 2010 17:40 TriniMasta[wD] wrote:
I actually have a quite easy time dealing with marines =O
2 Gate > Expo > Robo Would be nice

On July 19 2010 07:39 Markwerf wrote:
Just wanted to point at that it's nonsense it's faster to save up money for your raxes and then put down 5 at one time. Making them as you go is better simply because you get more rax time you could get the same number of marines while using a rax less then for example. Getting downtime on scv's would just be poor macro.

On July 19 2010 08:19 ayababa wrote:
I think some people are underestimating how many marines u can have under the 6 minute mark.

although i dont use this build.. when i used to do marine all in's you can easily have 30-35 marines out by the 6 minute mark... this is ALOT of marines..

Im currently doing a +1 attack and shield push.. once both upgrades are done i move out with around 20 marines... its pretty hard to stop. Even if you do have enough roaches / stalkers.... reinforcments come in groups of 5. i transition into mech + expand.

On July 19 2010 08:12 ilbh wrote:
there is no way someone could reach n.1 diamond with this strat.

against zergs: banelings or roaches will destroy him
against terran: few marines +1 medivac will kill him

it may only work against protoss if not scouted...

On July 19 2010 08:45 Markwerf wrote:
This simply doesn't work against a good player. Sure sometimes people can get suprised by it but any good player who catches it in time can stop it easily.
Terran can just bunker up, Zerg can get roaches or just use queens + crawlers + zerglings and Toss can block the ramp. It's a known fact that cheeses work very well against subtop players because they often lack the scouting, adaptation and micro of the good players but practicing such a strat is basically useless.

On July 19 2010 08:33 altairian wrote:


It's so so easy to do a build like this and prevent it from being scouted. How often does protoss fast stalker to 4 gate without it being scouted? Pretty much every 4 gate that's ever been done. It's the exact same concept, and even easier since terran can wall off and use 1 marine to get rid of workers and overlords.

I got hit by something like this build once and it is pretty scary for sure. I should have had a sentry to wall off and I probably would've stayed alive for a while, but mass marine can be hard to kill without higher tech, and the whole point of this build is to deny you the time to tech. Stop being so hard on the OP, you really don't need a replay to see that this can work. And you don't have to point out that it can be beaten. Everything can be beaten.

I'm not really sure how you would go about beating this early game as toss, since basically stalkers die extremely quickly to mass rines

On July 19 2010 15:53 Tar-Moridin wrote:
This is probably one of those builds that deserves Idra-rage, completely denying any decent mid- or late game.
As a protoss player I've been very much annoyed with PvT, as indeed by the time I am able to get an observer out it is usually too late. I now pretty much always 4-gate against terran, massing stalkers when i see marines and then tech to chargelots...

Still its "strategies" like these that kinda make the game a lot less fun to play (yes, I enjoy macro games), but as all early strategies; people will find ways to fend it off easily, and if not Blizz will make changes.

On July 19 2010 15:51 extempest wrote:
i dont understand... teching up to tier 1.5 unit should own againts any mass marine
roach>marines
stalker>marines
marauder>marines

im not sure about roaches though , can rines kite roaches? due to roach's slow movement speed

And you think it's "fun" to play against the easiest and hardest to beat Toss strategy? (the 4 gate)

I agree that it sucks to play against them, but you have to come up with SOMETHING to beat the other race's cheese tactics. Gimpy was pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to beat 4 gate Tosses... (which is like almost all of them)

On July 19 2010 16:23 Opti wrote:
Maybe microing stalkers like that would work, certainly something i can try and get better at.. god knows my stalker micro is kinda bad. Seems like alot of work to fend off a strat that any noob could do.. i mean really.. 10 supply, 12 rax, 15 OC, save 750 min, make 5x rax, bind all 6 rax to a key, hit q repeatedly, set rally point, win? (or hit a if you use standard keybinds, me i like the grid)

What can Z do against this though? I mean banelings are obvious, but once marines reach a critical mass, its going to be damn hard to get a baneling close enough to the pile to do any damage.

Maybe I should start saccing my ovies once I reach a specific food count rather than once I start building my lair.

On July 19 2010 23:05 Grettin wrote:
is this the same build lzgamer does?

Sounds easy to defend/win with protoss though.

On July 20 2010 02:36 bakin1 wrote:
I just lost to this build last night. I play Terran. I did scout it and built hellions(w/igniter) via reactor + mauraders. I was over confident and the marine numbers were just too much especially since when I play vs terran, I don't wall off bc of seige tanks. I realize this was more late game and my oppoent didn't push early but still. If I played correctly, I should have won. More hellions + seige tech should own this. Obviously the most important thing is to scout it though.

On July 19 2010 07:39 Markwerf wrote:
Just wanted to point at that it's nonsense it's faster to save up money for your raxes and then put down 5 at one time. Making them as you go is better simply because you get more rax time you could get the same number of marines while using a rax less then for example. Getting downtime on scv's would just be poor macro.

On July 20 2010 03:01 Shaithis wrote:


Er, igniter hellions are most definitely NOT a way to counter a marine rush. Hellions themselves are just barely a soft counter to marines in numbers, and igniter upgrade requires a tech lab (which results in you having half the hellions you would have had with a reactor for the push). No wonder you lost, and no, you should not have won. Next time, build your own marines and get fast siege.

On July 20 2010 03:01 Shaithis wrote:


Er, igniter hellions are most definitely NOT a way to counter a marine rush. Hellions themselves are just barely a soft counter to marines in numbers, and igniter upgrade requires a tech lab (which results in you having half the hellions you would have had with a reactor for the push). No wonder you lost, and no, you should not have won. Next time, build your own marines and get fast siege.

On July 19 2010 08:19 ayababa wrote:
I think some people are underestimating how many marines u can have under the 6 minute mark.

although i dont use this build.. when i used to do marine all in's you can easily have 30-35 marines out by the 6 minute mark... this is ALOT of marines..

Im currently doing a +1 attack and shield push.. once both upgrades are done i move out with around 20 marines... its pretty hard to stop. Even if you do have enough roaches / stalkers.... reinforcments come in groups of 5. i transition into mech + expand.

On July 20 2010 01:34 Zyke wrote:
Ok, Kiburn, but that:
1. Sacrifices upgrades
2. Still puts 10 marines against a walled in 5 marines and a tank.
3. If Tanks and Vikings make it to Mid-game in tact, the harass on expansions is a tangible threat and MM doesn't get past tanks.

On July 20 2010 03:19 Opti wrote:
So yeah it seems like overnight every T has decided this is their staple TvP build, and i just mass stalkers, and laugh at them. Thank so much to whoever pointed out stalker kiting/micro vs marines, really made this build a joke to own.

On a side note, when i mention 6 rax to a T player, I can immediately tell that they are going it, and if they don't, they will go for banshee cloak cheese since they know i will counter marines. Either way, by the time their banshees have cloak, i have killed most of their workers etc, and have cannons in my main.. then i just wait for robo to come up, get a few obs, and gg.

I find it a bit disturbing that, with how unbalanced TvP was anyway (leaning heavily in T favor after all the buffs) all of these plat/diamond level T are feeling the need to use these all in cheese builds. What ever happened to owning us poor P the normal way?

On July 20 2010 03:18 kungfu wrote:


I played against something exactly like this on a Desert Oasis match. (Haven't watched the replay to see if he got +1 att). The first marine push was pretty easy to hold off even with me doing a 1 gate -> stargate -> 2 voids -> 2nd gate + warpgates. It turned into a contain with me going chargelots + sentry. Busted the contain pretty easily due to guardian shield.

What killed me that game though was his transition into mass rine + 3-4 maraduers + 2-3 tank armies. My chargelots would all die at just about the time they were done cutting through the bio ball and I'd have to pull my sentries back from the tank fire. Even with me killing off his gold expo twice (he didn't take his natural), I wasn't able to win the game. Looking back on it, I probably would have done just fine if I had gotten even 1 phoenix.

I'm about a 1300 diamond.

On July 20 2010 03:34 FabledIntegral wrote:


No, you clearly aren't.

On July 20 2010 03:04 Dance.jhu wrote:
Not hard getting to diamond, it's hard to get past 500 points

On July 20 2010 03:12 FabledIntegral wrote:


I completely agree with your logic, but apparently many have done tests and such isn't the case. I have yet to understand why, but I remember the higher ups talking about why it's better to wait and drop them all at once.

You do that in many builds in BW as well, including the deep six, etc.




Wtf are you talking about, you didn't even see the rep, you have no idea if he "should have won" or not being dependent on the factor of him underestimating the marine count. Maybe he nearly held it off but failed because he built the Marauders? Jeez. No need to post like a complete ass.

On July 20 2010 03:16 bakin1 wrote:



You're probably right, but I did both. I went 1 rax/1 fac+reactor. Pumped hellions + built another fac + lab then went igniter tech to seige tech.

On July 20 2010 04:11 Shaithis wrote:


Are you partaking of the Down's? There is no such thing as "underestimating the marine count," it's more like "produce enough units to be able to hold off the marine masser's 10 marine-per-minute production rate." There is nothing about tech-labbing hellion production that accomplishes this, and marauders were another bad idea.




If you scout a massive bio push or suspect it, it's always a good idea to throw down additional rax of your own, and to use all of your gas for factory > tech > tanks + instant siege mode upgrade. Hellions really aren't the best choice.

On July 20 2010 03:25 Kiburn wrote:


1) No, it doesn't...you're gonna be on 2 bases to his 1...you can make more units than him, AND still upgrade. And also, this build finishes the game in 12 minutes maximum-that's the longest TvT game I've had with this build because about 12 marines get to his base around the 5 minute mark (which already makes your #2 argument null-siege tanks and siege mode cannot be complete by then), and reinforcements of 6 marines are sent twice. I'm in mid-high Diamond (top 25) so I play against decent opponents, and most of the time, the marines cannot win the game.

However, it puts serious pressure on him and by the time he finishes the marines off, he will have a tank and a few marines, and by that time, my first wave of 6 marauders are already completed. I don't attack right away, but wait for the next wave of 6 twice (total of 18 marauders, and move in then. This wins the game most of the time. In the case that it doesn't, like I mentioned, just build turrets, which allows for upgrades at the ebay, and I've already had stim and conc shells for a while.

2) already addressed

3) In case you didn't know, marauders RAPE tanks, especially with stim. Marauders to somthing like 20 damage to tanks per shot which means 8 marauders one shot a tank, and I always have way more than 8 marauders. Stimmed marauders make quick work of tanks. Vikings? Vikings are a joke to marauders...even WORSE than tanks..plus...again, turrets in-base?


This is a really good opening...only thing I would change, is get one less rax in the beginning, cus I'm too low on minerals most of the time. but other than that, this build is really versatile.

On July 20 2010 04:19 Zyke wrote:


Wait, you want to sacrifice troops for an expand? That's at least 4 marauders. You can't have an all in push with an expansion. The money you spend on economy will make the push weak.

Now with strategy: An un-sieged tank with 5 marines destroys 10 marines if it has position. You see, the ramp makes it so that I get to fire with all my units and you get to fire with half your units. You move men up the ramp to fire with all units, I get at least two free shots. Short work.

The marauders rely heavily on the first marine rush. By then I have 3 tanks, tech and some fluff marines or more if you don't do any damage with the ramp attack. This means the 8 marauders you send don't win. Especially if I'm not dumb when placing the tanks.

On July 20 2010 03:29 Kiburn wrote:


First of all, T is not heavily favored over P...don't know who hit your head this morning....and second of all....you play against some uber noobs if they decide to do this against a Protoss player...its retarded...you don't even need stalkers, just keep building zealots and it'll rape this....that's just plain retarded.....play some better players.

The only way to mass marines against a Protoss player would be to go 2 rax reactor/tech lab marine/ghost combo. You need to have combat shields and stim though for that. Its good if you do that, but thats the only way I can think of to use mass marines effectively atm against Protoss.

On July 18 2010 20:49 Cola.bier wrote:
obvious, troll is obvious (I really hope so)

This is the shittiest build I have ever seen, cant imagine any good players losing to this.

#1 Diamond doesnt mean anything btw, just post your stats and points.

At Maximum, this works for a cheese from time to time, but not even against semi good players.

PS: I play on europe, although US seems weaker I highly doubt you guys are that hardroce fai0rs :/

On July 20 2010 05:08 Opti wrote:


Actually, with how all in this build is, zealots really can't put a dent in the build as long as the T does a tiny bit of micro. Literally in the time it takes the zealot to get to the pile, it dies, at best it gets off 1 swing, maybe 2, even if you push an entire line of zealots. I know what you're thinking, because i thought it too. Zealots > marine, especially in an open field, but when marines hit a critical mass they are one of the highest dps units available, and even zeals don't stand a chance. Maybe with charge and surround with tons of zeals, but typically this push happens far too early in the game to have chargelots.

Secondly, yes T > P right now, mainly because 1 rax FE is extremely difficult to counter as P and puts the P at an eco disadvantage early. It's not a HUGE margin, don't get me wrong, and it's only that 1 rax FE that i think is so powerful. I beat T just as much as i lose to them, and I'm #7 on my diamond division (which admittedly isn't saying much since i only have just over 400 points) so i'm not just playing against total noobs.

So really, if you think that going mass zealots will rape marines at critical mass.. im sorry but i think you're wrong. It's the same idea as when a MM ball hits critical mass. Sure in the early stages, chargelots, even zealots with just some decent FF usage will kill a MM ball, but later on the zealots just die too friggin fast to do much damage, because all of the MM get off a couple shots before the zeals even get into range. Of course at this point hopefully the P would have colossi stalkers etc, and so the fight is even.

On July 20 2010 05:13 Kiburn wrote:


You're right....but that's why the wonderful guys at blizzard put this thing in the game called chargelots

On July 20 2010 06:01 Bibdy wrote:


Ah yes, the magical world where Protoss has Charge, but the Terran doesn't have Stims and/or Shield.

You have a lot of experience playing as Protoss in Diamond. I can tell.

On July 20 2010 04:59 Kiburn wrote:


First of all, this is NOT an all-in...its an OPENING.

Second of all, you WON'T have 3 tanks and tech coming by the time I have marauders in your base, and even if you do, tanks get obliterated by marauders in such small numbers (like 3 tanks)...I can bust a supply depot(if you wall), stim, run in, AND kill all three tanks with the 18 marauders I'd have.

On July 18 2010 16:17 gimpy wrote:
I'm gimpygimpy currently 1# in Diamond league Grizzly Rho 260. No add-ons or engineering bay unless push don't work. The key is how easy it is to deny scout early. Rine off 1st rax is all he sees. Making the 5 extra rax all at once after scout is dead is quick and easy to hide. OLs are running away at this point, scan location is predictable, toss got no way to scout that early. Before other scouting methods rdy for opponent, I'm knocking with huge dps that reinforces fast. They probably think I'm FE off 1 rax most of the time cause they see no gas or extra raxes early. The delay is confusing.

Just wanted to share. Enjoy!

Hardly unbeatable! Hardly #1 Diamond either.

On July 20 2010 11:08 roliax wrote:
*Ahem* According to http://starcraftrankings.com/

You are:



Hardly unbeatable! Hardly #1 Diamond either.

Thank so much to whoever pointed out stalker kiting/micro vs marines, really made this build a joke to own.

On July 20 2010 15:39 mecra wrote:

Fail much at website navigation?

Click the name, you see a Diamond icon there? How about his stats: 1v1 74 Games 43 Wins

Man people are really trying to disprove the viability of such a strat to the level of even getting stupid in their attempts.

On July 21 2010 00:24 roliax wrote:

PS.
Since the link doesn't seem to work for me, I don't understand how scrankings.com's data can be innaccurate...it directly pulls the data from the profile page and updates every 30 mins or so (not that the data is changing right now anyways). Maybe you can enlighten me on this.

Having 18 marauders is assuming you have significantly more money than the other player. This is a dangerous assumption.
You claim: 12 marines, 18 marauders, 4 tech labs, and an expand can be made and brought to bear on an enemy within 7 mins.
I claim: 600+1800+400(supplies+400+900 (Barracks)+150 (refinery) + 500 (10 scvs) + 100 (upgrade stims)=4850
The saturation of base gathering is 880 mins/sec. This will not happen until beyond the 5 minute mark. This does not even count pulling off workers for gas or protection with turrets.

The math says that this is not possible, you come up short by over 800 minerals.

On July 21 2010 06:21 iEchoic wrote:


The build isn't viable, just because a build does well in low-diamond ladder matches doesn't mean it's 'viable'. It only works on ladder because anyone who plays him more than once can just counter it. It's a cheese. Making a million marines is never going to be a build that can be used in a tournament situation repeatedly.

There are tons of cheeses where you can get to diamond and win games. How does that make them viable?

In a best of 3 series a Z player can just make banelings and a p player can just forcefield his ramp indefinitely until he gets colossus or templar. A T player can have 2 siege tanks by time this attack hits. 2 siege tanks + walled choke would handle this.

Your only evidence is ladder games (and only having a mediocre record in low-diamond as well) - nobody is blindly dismissing the strategy, they're just pointing out that tons of cheeses can get you into diamond but they're not reliable strategies. You can proxy gate in someone's base every game to diamond.

The game is down right now so if you can't discuss a strategy without the game being up to test it right now on, you might as well not post because you're just going to get frustrated.

On July 21 2010 06:51 Kiburn wrote:


I only played 50 ladder games, so its not wise to judge my skill on the few games I played. The record I posted earlier was gimpygimpy's not mine. Also, you're right about the last part, there's no point arguing about the build at this point, which is why I said wait til release.

The only thing I wanted to say about your last post is that you keep throwing in the word 'cheese.' What is your definition of cheese? Here is what Team Liquid says about cheese, and I agree with this definition:

Cheese is a negative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.

This build (or rather, I should mention, MY adjusted version of this build, but basically the same basic concept of it) is neither. It is not impossible to defeat. As you stated-it's beatable. Nor is it EASY to defeat even when scouted. Why? because although marines are weak, we can all agree on that, the sheer number of them busting in with the first attack, is enough that, although beatable, does considerable damage before being beaten.

That's all I have to say. I'm not saying you're completely wrong. For all we both know, I could be terribly terribly wrong, as I only tried this build about 7 times in the Diamond league ladder games. All I'm asking at this point, is you admit this as a build that has POSSIBLE potential (note i'm not asking you to claim this as a great build atm), until release day. We can all do more testing then, TOGETHER, and figure out why it works or doesn't work.

The point for this thread, and my posts, are in hopes that we, as one community can put our ideas together for a build like this and understand TOGETHER why it works or doesn't work. atm, I just happen to stand on the side that believes it works, while you're standing on the side that doesn't. That's fair, but its also fair that we keep our minds open, no?

On July 21 2010 06:55 RandomBS wrote:
I think dropping one gas with the next 75 minerals after your 5 barracks will work well. You don't really sacrifice anything because the you will have more than enough for marines once the barracks actually finish. You should be able to get a tech lab on your first rax (the one you build at 12) around the time the barracks complete and you start pumping marines. Throwing a few marauders into the rally can't hurt, plus the lab allows for stim or combat shield. Not to mention it makes the build less all-in as you can drop a factory right after.

Also you should send a SCV a bit behind the opening push to build a bunker, the opponent will be focused on the 25 marines coming up the ramp while the bunker finishes, and your stream of marines will rally right into it. If the push fails the bunker contain will give you enough time to expand.

On July 20 2010 01:27 Shaithis wrote:
Mass marines have been effective forever, as they are probably the most powerful unit in the game in terms of cost / benefit, and are available at the start of the match. That said, this strat is definitely a form of cheddar as it relies on standard play from your opponent. The appropriate counter is to mass your own T1 and make some static D while doing a slow tech to a counter, as any time spent teching will result in you having a significantly smaller army than the marine masser when he comes knockin'.

On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...

as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.

could be a good cheese though no doubt there.

On July 21 2010 07:10 kcdc wrote:
Will upload replay of Avilo trying this no-gas 6 rax cheese against my P shortly. FWIW, we both finished beta fairly high up on the US server.

I played a standard 13-gate timing, and was planning to 4-gate because the Blistering Sands begs for early aggression. His attack fizzled pretty easily with a little stalker micro, and I was later able to pick of a group of marines with forcefields. I used DT's to buy time to expo and then eventually rolled over his marine-ghost composition with collosi.

All in all, the 6-rax cheese gives you a pretty scary 60 second timing window, but it's nothing that can't be handled with a little micro, and while it doesn't gimp your economy, it sets you WAY behind on tech, so DT's and collosi are big threats if the game goes into the middle stages.

Also, his APM is way higher than mine, but we had almost identical winning percentages.

On July 21 2010 07:14 Kiburn wrote:


I haven't used this build at all against protoss, just because of this. a few stalkers, and its no good. If they don't micro, its great, but thats something I won't risk. I only posted this as a viable strat against Z and T.

On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:


If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech.

What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build.

On July 21 2010 07:21 mahnini wrote:

i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon.

not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe.

On July 21 2010 07:23 Sabresandiego wrote:


Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas.

On July 21 2010 07:35 mahnini wrote:

even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless.

On July 21 2010 07:35 mahnini wrote:

even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless.

On July 21 2010 07:55 Kiburn wrote:


The great thing about this build is that you don't NEED to get tanks or vikings. You can pump so many marauders soooo quickly compared to the amount of tanks coming out, and marauders already rape tanks, ESPECIALLY with stim. Tanks die so quickly to marauders. This also allows you too completely bypass the viking battle....no air units? nothing for vikings to kill. Land the vikings? Bye bye vikings, here comes armored units' worst enemy: marauders. Banshees? Its ok, I have turrets at my base already (you should have them by then), and I can disregard banshees, because I can bust in with all my marauders, kill whatever units you have, and kill your starport before your one or two banshees can kill ALL my marauders.

The thing is, you make good points, but with this opening, despite people saying I won't have enough money for everything, I'm on 5 raxes total, pumping units from each one and still having enough money left over to throw down a CC, and some turrets. Like i said, its cus

1) no energy wasted on scans
2) late gas=earlier mineral saturation and stockpiled minerals

Now, it was mentioned before, but the late gas means I get a slightly later stim, but honestly, with the sheer number of units I can get, its worth it all.

One of the most important things? Tank/vikings is incredibly immobile (well, the tanks anyway), so I maintain COMPLETE map control from the beginning. I already said I only played about 7 games in mid-high diamond with this, so I'm gonna need to do some more testing, but all 7 games, I was able to EASILY contain him from getting more than one base, cus they just can't move fast enough to defend against stimmed marauders waltzing around the whole map.

On July 21 2010 06:21 iEchoic wrote:


The build isn't viable, just because a build does well in low-diamond ladder matches doesn't mean it's 'viable'. It only works on ladder because anyone who plays him more than once can just counter it. It's a cheese. Making a million marines is never going to be a build that can be used in a tournament situation repeatedly.

There are tons of cheeses where you can get to diamond and win games. How does that make them viable?

In a best of 3 series a Z player can just make banelings and a p player can just forcefield his ramp indefinitely until he gets colossus or templar. A T player can have 2 siege tanks by time this attack hits (you say 1 unsieged tank but that is not true at all. Rushing siege tanks can get you very fast tanks, especially if you go gas first or go 9rax). 2 siege tanks + walled choke would handle this. You could even make a baneling-proof choke (two layers or only production buildings) and set your 2 tanks out of attack range.

On July 21 2010 08:17 mahnini wrote:

that's a good point. i wish replays worked so we can get some concrete evidence.

On July 21 2010 08:44 iEchoic wrote:


So? In a Bo3 tourney you can't use it twice. I don't really call that legit.

Another thing that's a bitch for mass marines is the P player massing stalkers and being aggressive with stalkers from the get-go. If you micro the stalkers you can just keep picking off marines non-stop. The 2-gate-2-stalker opening is perfect for this.

On July 19 2010 18:17 Yokoblue wrote:
Somebody did something similar to me. Massed marine like crazy... I went for mass stalker and speed to templar... I had just a few templar out.. when he was killing the probes... Too late...

Btw: Stalker get own by marine... Marine shoot faster and cost less so in small number Stalker win but in large number... even with the range marine win... and the attack animation of the stalker make almost imposible to outmicro the marine.

Only speed build to the counter work.
1 other thing that could work is the 2 speed stalker build by 4-5 min. He only have 2-3 marine... if you keep pumping stalker you will win. Only thing I see plausible

EDIT:

And serioustly... Protoss player... WTF...
You all say go speed collosus go speed templar... go mass sentry... FF the ramp for eternity... He was in his base at like... 6-7 min with 25 marines... You cant have ANY of all that by that time... and you have to know its coming to have at least 2 sentry at start of the game to max out on energy to FF the ramp for a while...

+ he has constant reinforcements... He had a big line of marine always coming from his base... to the other... without knowing that build is coming.. .you can prevent it... but with all that reinforcements... i think you might not be able to hold it.

On July 21 2010 17:57 HunterStarcraft wrote:
The final installment of my Masq (GG.Win) mini-series:

Masq (Terran) vs sSKS (Protoss) on Scrap Station

On July 19 2010 08:46 bleh wrote:
omg why does everyone do this? Sooooo annoying seeing these threads. I've seen dozens of them.

OK, a new division was created, you were the first one to win a couple of games and it put you in the #1 spot. It has happened to literally thousands of people. Your rank inside of a division means nothing, your point score, while skewed by the low number of games played and the bonus points, will give some kind of indication of where you're actually ranked, for some reason you didn't include that though. hmmmm.

This is an obvious brag thread which you made for absolutely no reason other than to write "I GOT #1 IN DIAMOND LOL!" in a thread title to feel good about yourself.

On July 21 2010 20:11 teamamerica wrote:
then again there's also this:
Masq versus White-Ra on Scrap Station. Masq goes 5 barracks marine push
Sure White-Ra doesn't play amazingly but he gets destroyed by Masq, while using a pretty standard toss opening build. oG in the aforementioned map played amazingly but I'm not sure if he was suspecting Masq for going mass rines since his match was after this one. In a quick match PvT if the toss isn't suspecting it, I think it'd work well. How many people open with 4 sentries and 1 stalker? And in the match versus Masq that Masq loses, imo he sticks with rines a bit too long - if he had teched gas when he saw how badly the first push was going, match might have been different.

On July 21 2010 19:15 ChickenLips wrote:
This.




watch it and wow at Tester fending that off without losing a single unit in the first 40 seconds of that attack.

On July 22 2010 03:41 BlasiuS wrote:
Masq v Tester game, Masq does not use the build described in the OP.

He expands after the rax, so really it's just a variation of the 1 rax FE -> 4 rax build that was popular earlier in the beta. The variation of course is that he delays his gas in order to make 5 barracks instead of 4.

OP's build is a 5 rax off of 1 base, it's an all-in build.

On July 22 2010 03:49 Inkarnate wrote:


I first saw Masq use this, and more recently LZGamer. The build in the OP is simply an inferior version.

This is Masq's original thread with replays:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=124754

On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.

260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.

On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P.

On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:


This...

No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level

On July 22 2010 06:12 kcdc wrote:


As soon as gas or expo comes into play, you're talking about a totally different play. What you're talking about here is 1-base bio which is pretty strong, but it's not the marine all-in discussed in this thread.

To beat 1-base bio, you just have to control well (use sentries to forcefield chokes and split his attack, use waves of zealots to tank hits and retreat your stalkers as the zealots die) until you get the right tech (charge, dts, hts, collosi) to mount your own attack. If you're having a lot of trouble, you can start a [H] thread.

On July 22 2010 06:49 Sabresandiego wrote:
This build transitions into other builds extremely well.

On July 22 2010 06:52 BlasiuS wrote:


lol? Do you know what 'all-in' means?

I can tell you what it doesn't mean: a build that transitions into other builds extremely well.

On July 22 2010 03:23 kcdc wrote:
Here's my replay of Avilo using this strat against my P that I'd described above. Was on the run and couldn't upload yesterday.

On July 22 2010 06:47 Sabresandiego wrote:


Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game.

Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is.

On July 22 2010 07:05 lu_cid wrote:


What?

I'm not trying to put anyone down, just pointing out that getting to "#1 diamond" using this build is not relevant. That's a relative term. It doesn't make it a good build.

You're right though I've been put down my whole life, that's why I said this.

On July 22 2010 07:12 Sabresandiego wrote:


How is being #1 diamond not relevant. How many build orders can take you straight to #1 diamond? It is totally relevant. Highest I got in phase 2 was rank 8 diamond with about 400 points, and you don't see me insulting anyone.

Fact of the matter is that this build is solid. Masq uses a variation of this build against protoss where he cuts 3 rax and gets an early CC instead. The concept of no gas and mineral hoarding into a bio heavy army is the same, and it works. Just because it can be beaten doesn't mean shit. Fast banshees can be countered, does that make them worthless? No.

On July 22 2010 07:20 lu_cid wrote:


Ugh...

I'm not going to argue with you. Ok, #1 diamond at 260 points is the same as #1 at 700+ points. You win.

Masq's build involves skipping gas to get a fast command center. That is not a variation of this build. It's completely different.

On July 22 2010 07:28 Sabresandiego wrote:

You don't even understand what I am saying. He could be rank 100 diamond at 260 points, the point is that 260 points is still better than 95%+ of the people playing this game, so why insult him for it?

On July 22 2010 08:18 aznhockeyboy16 wrote:
lots of people in diamond suck... and if you cheese your way to victory 50% of the time, you will get a lot of points fast, since you get more points for winning than you lose for losing.

also, if I scout a terran and he doesn't have his gas I'm building 2 bunkers on my ramp, and scouting for cheese.

On July 22 2010 06:58 Sabresandiego wrote:


This is not an all in build. You do not cut scv's at all, and you can transition. Who says this build has to be all in? You can even transition into an early expo, 4 gas bio mech if you want. Having 5-6 rax is something you would have anyways by midgame, you just get it early in this build and use it for pressure. This build is not an all in unless you play it that way, and you can if you want to.

On July 18 2010 14:26 gimpy wrote:
Just wanted to share this all-in cause I haven't seen this build from anyone else yet, and I can't seem to lose!

On July 22 2010 11:05 BlasiuS wrote:


try reading the damn OP before you start spewing garbage:

On July 18 2010 14:26 gimpy wrote:
Kinda goofy but I play T and this build has been working against all 3 races. Pretty much just standard depot, rax, depot, rine to deny scouting, orbital command and save 750 min to build 5 rax similtanously where scouting is difficult. SCVs the whole time. Push at about 6 min to avoid tanks and pop.

On July 18 2010 14:26 gimpy wrote:
save 750 min to build 5 rax similtanously where scouting is difficult.

On July 18 2010 14:26 gimpy wrote:
save 750 min to build 5 rax similtanously

On July 18 2010 14:26 gimpy wrote:
Making rax as you go slows this down cause of scvs not mining.

On July 22 2010 15:29 Apollys wrote:
2 questions:

First, as PvT my general strat is fast stalker -> harass the wall/marines behind it, abusing range and shield regen (even with high ground, you can still attack without taking any real damage). That seems like it would force you to either switch strategies (build tech lab and marauders) or just watch your wall-in get crushed and mass protoss gateway units stream into your base.

Secondly, as I said before, I'm a P player not T, why on a mass marine build do you build 6 separate rax's without addons as opposed to just 3 with reactors? (This is a general question for any terran player; it seems like it would be more cost effective)