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On July 22 2010 03:41 BlasiuS wrote:
Masq v Tester game, Masq does not use the build described in the OP.
He expands after the rax, so really it's just a variation of the 1 rax FE -> 4 rax build that was popular earlier in the beta. The variation of course is that he delays his gas in order to make 5 barracks instead of 4.
OP's build is a 5 rax off of 1 base, it's an all-in build.
I first saw Masq use this, and more recently LZGamer. The build in the OP is simply an inferior version.
This is Masq's original thread with replays:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=124754
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A few more thoughts about this build in TvP:
The standard P opener is 13-gate and rush for stalker to defend against reaper openings. The probe scouts for an early tech lab, and if no tech lab is started, the P knows he can safely send his first stalker to poke into T's base. I believe T will just have finished his first batch of marines when the stalker poke arrives. At this point, P can easily micro his stalker to pick of marines as the marines advance across the map, throw down gateways if he's rushed tech (need at least 3 warpgates to fend this attack off), and build a couple sentries to delay and split marines as they pass through the ramp.
All in all, it's just not going to work against a P who knows about the cheese and knows how to respond. I can't see this being a common build in TvP 6 months from now.
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On July 22 2010 03:49 Inkarnate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 03:41 BlasiuS wrote:
Masq v Tester game, Masq does not use the build described in the OP.
He expands after the rax, so really it's just a variation of the 1 rax FE -> 4 rax build that was popular earlier in the beta. The variation of course is that he delays his gas in order to make 5 barracks instead of 4.
OP's build is a 5 rax off of 1 base, it's an all-in build. I first saw Masq use this, and more recently LZGamer. The build in the OP is simply an inferior version. This is Masq's original thread with replays: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=124754
The build in the OP isn't an 'inferior version' of Masq's build, it has nothing to do with Masq's build. OP's build is a 1 base all-in.
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On July 22 2010 05:07 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 03:49 Inkarnate wrote:On July 22 2010 03:41 BlasiuS wrote:
Masq v Tester game, Masq does not use the build described in the OP.
He expands after the rax, so really it's just a variation of the 1 rax FE -> 4 rax build that was popular earlier in the beta. The variation of course is that he delays his gas in order to make 5 barracks instead of 4.
OP's build is a 5 rax off of 1 base, it's an all-in build. I first saw Masq use this, and more recently LZGamer. The build in the OP is simply an inferior version. This is Masq's original thread with replays: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=124754 The build in the OP isn't an 'inferior version' of Masq's build, it has nothing to do with Masq's build. OP's build is a 1 base all-in.
Tee-hee.....people see the 2 builds both feature lots of barracks and marines and think they're the same thing. Of course, the timings and focuses of the builds are completely different.
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im a gold 500 toss player not as good as u guys here, but i find this mass marine build really hard to counter, esp when they have stim packs.. its really hard to kite the marines with a bunch of stalkers when 30 of them just stim and steam roll pass ur army and base.. ive encountered this strat before.. when mixed with a few marauders, stalkers and sentries become pretty useless.. 3-4 marauders in the mix render the chargelots useless.. void immortals and cannons wont work.. and by the time a colossus comes out its pretty much too late.. its not impossible to stop, but having 2 players with the same skill levels with one using this marine strat and another protoss, the T player really has the upper hand while the P has to work his ass off..
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On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P.
This...
No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level
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On July 22 2010 05:59 Kahmunrah_ wrote:
im a gold 500 toss player not as good as u guys here, but i find this mass marine build really hard to counter, esp when they have stim packs.. its really hard to kite the marines with a bunch of stalkers when 30 of them just stim and steam roll pass ur army and base.. ive encountered this strat before.. when mixed with a few marauders, stalkers and sentries become pretty useless.. 3-4 marauders in the mix render the chargelots useless.. void immortals and cannons wont work.. and by the time a colossus comes out its pretty much too late.. its not impossible to stop, but having 2 players with the same skill levels with one using this marine strat and another protoss, the T player really has the upper hand while the P has to work his ass off..
As soon as gas or expo comes into play, you're talking about a totally different play. What you're talking about here is 1-base bio which is pretty strong, but it's not the marine all-in discussed in this thread.
To beat 1-base bio, you just have to control well (use sentries to forcefield chokes and split his attack, use waves of zealots to tank hits and retreat your stalkers as the zealots die) until you get the right tech (charge, dts, hts, collosi) to mount your own attack. If you're having a lot of trouble, you can start a [H] thread.
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On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P. This... No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level
Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game.
Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is.
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On July 22 2010 06:12 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 05:59 Kahmunrah_ wrote:
im a gold 500 toss player not as good as u guys here, but i find this mass marine build really hard to counter, esp when they have stim packs.. its really hard to kite the marines with a bunch of stalkers when 30 of them just stim and steam roll pass ur army and base.. ive encountered this strat before.. when mixed with a few marauders, stalkers and sentries become pretty useless.. 3-4 marauders in the mix render the chargelots useless.. void immortals and cannons wont work.. and by the time a colossus comes out its pretty much too late.. its not impossible to stop, but having 2 players with the same skill levels with one using this marine strat and another protoss, the T player really has the upper hand while the P has to work his ass off.. As soon as gas or expo comes into play, you're talking about a totally different play. What you're talking about here is 1-base bio which is pretty strong, but it's not the marine all-in discussed in this thread. To beat 1-base bio, you just have to control well (use sentries to forcefield chokes and split his attack, use waves of zealots to tank hits and retreat your stalkers as the zealots die) until you get the right tech (charge, dts, hts, collosi) to mount your own attack. If you're having a lot of trouble, you can start a [H] thread.
I don't see why this build cannot be easily converted into 1 base bio? Do people assume you have to constantly suicide in marines until you lose? This build transitions into other builds extremely well.
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On July 22 2010 06:49 Sabresandiego wrote:
This build transitions into other builds extremely well.
lol? Do you know what 'all-in' means?
I can tell you what it doesn't mean: a build that transitions into other builds extremely well.
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On July 22 2010 06:52 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:49 Sabresandiego wrote:
This build transitions into other builds extremely well. lol? Do you know what 'all-in' means? I can tell you what it doesn't mean: a build that transitions into other builds extremely well.
This is not an all in build. You do not cut scv's at all, and you can transition. Who says this build has to be all in? You can even transition into an early expo, 4 gas bio mech if you want. Having 5-6 rax is something you would have anyways by midgame, you just get it early in this build and use it for pressure. This build is not an all in unless you play it that way, and you can if you want to.
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On July 22 2010 03:23 kcdc wrote:Here's my replay of Avilo using this strat against my P that I'd described above. Was on the run and couldn't upload yesterday. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-133229.jpg)
Good replay. Dark Templars are an excellent transition against this build and it scared Avilo into retreating. Had he kept charging forward instead of retreating to defend his base, he could have possibly won the game at that point since your expansion left you with an inferior army. Him retreating made your expansion win the game. Dark templars are probably the best transition against this build since it lacks the tech buildings for detection.
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On July 22 2010 06:47 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P. This... No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game. Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is.
What?
I'm not trying to put anyone down, just pointing out that getting to "#1 diamond" using this build is not relevant. That's a relative term. It doesn't make it a good build.
You're right though I've been put down my whole life, that's why I said this.
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On July 22 2010 07:05 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:47 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P. This... No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game. Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is. What? I'm not trying to put anyone down, just pointing out that getting to "#1 diamond" using this build is not relevant. That's a relative term. It doesn't make it a good build. You're right though I've been put down my whole life, that's why I said this.
How is being #1 diamond not relevant. How many build orders can take you straight to #1 diamond? It is totally relevant. Highest I got in phase 2 was rank 8 diamond with about 400 points, and you don't see me insulting anyone.
Fact of the matter is that this build is solid. Masq uses a variation of this build against protoss where he cuts 3 rax and gets an early CC instead. The concept of no gas and mineral hoarding into a bio heavy army is the same, and it works. Just because it can be beaten doesn't mean shit. Fast banshees can be countered, does that make them worthless? No.
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On July 22 2010 07:12 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 07:05 lu_cid wrote:On July 22 2010 06:47 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P. This... No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game. Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is. What? I'm not trying to put anyone down, just pointing out that getting to "#1 diamond" using this build is not relevant. That's a relative term. It doesn't make it a good build. You're right though I've been put down my whole life, that's why I said this. How is being #1 diamond not relevant. How many build orders can take you straight to #1 diamond? It is totally relevant. Highest I got in phase 2 was rank 8 diamond with about 400 points, and you don't see me insulting anyone. Fact of the matter is that this build is solid. Masq uses a variation of this build against protoss where he cuts 3 rax and gets an early CC instead. The concept of no gas and mineral hoarding into a bio heavy army is the same, and it works. Just because it can be beaten doesn't mean shit. Fast banshees can be countered, does that make them worthless? No.
Ugh...
I'm not going to argue with you. Ok, #1 diamond at 260 points is the same as #1 at 700+ points. You win.
Masq's build involves skipping gas to get a fast command center. That is not a variation of this build. It's completely different.
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This sounds more like bad version of warpprism 5gw push or 3rax marine/scv rush. You don't want to waste 450minerals for extra buildings that could've made 9marines/scv's...
A good point is that if you aren't making marauders or refinery, opponent can scout you don't have early ref. At that point it's obvious you are either FEing or cheesing allin rush. He should be suspicious of proxies or try to get inside your base if he isn't seeing the CC being built.
Calling oneself "#1 dia" is just sign of cluelessness. Anyone with sense of how diamond worked should know 260p means you barely got upgraded there. Plain stats tell a lot more than low amount of points.
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On July 22 2010 07:20 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 07:12 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 22 2010 07:05 lu_cid wrote:On July 22 2010 06:47 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P. This... No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game. Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is. What? I'm not trying to put anyone down, just pointing out that getting to "#1 diamond" using this build is not relevant. That's a relative term. It doesn't make it a good build. You're right though I've been put down my whole life, that's why I said this. How is being #1 diamond not relevant. How many build orders can take you straight to #1 diamond? It is totally relevant. Highest I got in phase 2 was rank 8 diamond with about 400 points, and you don't see me insulting anyone. Fact of the matter is that this build is solid. Masq uses a variation of this build against protoss where he cuts 3 rax and gets an early CC instead. The concept of no gas and mineral hoarding into a bio heavy army is the same, and it works. Just because it can be beaten doesn't mean shit. Fast banshees can be countered, does that make them worthless? No. Ugh... I'm not going to argue with you. Ok, #1 diamond at 260 points is the same as #1 at 700+ points. You win. Masq's build involves skipping gas to get a fast command center. That is not a variation of this build. It's completely different.
You don't even understand what I am saying. He could be rank 100 diamond at 260 points, the point is that 260 points is still better than 95%+ of the people playing this game, so why insult him for it?
Secondly if you can't see the similarity between masq's build and this one you need to get some help. The ONLY difference is a fast expand with slightly delayed rax. Both builds go all out minerals, both builds go mass rax, both builds go bio.
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On July 22 2010 07:03 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 03:23 kcdc wrote:Here's my replay of Avilo using this strat against my P that I'd described above. Was on the run and couldn't upload yesterday. Good replay. Dark Templars are an excellent transition against this build and it scared Avilo into retreating. Had he kept charging forward instead of retreating to defend his base, he could have possibly won the game at that point since your expansion left you with an inferior army. Him retreating made your expansion win the game. Dark templars are probably the best transition against this build since it lacks the tech buildings for detection.
Blink and charge are probably my two favorite abilities in this game, so I'll often find myself in situations where T is just massing more MM than I can defend against if I want to expand. Throwing down a dark shrine for free map control to expand against much larger forces has won me a lot of games. If you just stagger your DTs so that you only lose 1 per scan, it's almost impossible for T to push till he gets ravens, and that delay lets your econ take over.
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On July 22 2010 07:28 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 07:20 lu_cid wrote:On July 22 2010 07:12 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 22 2010 07:05 lu_cid wrote:On July 22 2010 06:47 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 22 2010 06:10 lu_cid wrote:On July 21 2010 20:55 Nihilnovi wrote:
I'm sorry but I stopped reading this topic when OP stated he was #1 at 260 rating.
260 rating in my diamond wasn't even top 50, I was barely top 3 with 530.
On a sidenote, this is incredibly easy to counter with early stalker pressure as P. This... No offense but 260 diamond is basically D level Funny how nerds get off on putting people down, when they have been put down their whole life. This thread is not about the OP's ranking. He is ranked #1 diamond, and I don't care if that is D level to you it is better than 99% of people who play this game. Even if he was a shitty player who used one build to get to #1, why do you have to insult him for it? He has not cheated, he found a creative way to get #1. Insulting someone for having a #1 in diamond, and sharing his strategy shows how poor the quality of your character is. What? I'm not trying to put anyone down, just pointing out that getting to "#1 diamond" using this build is not relevant. That's a relative term. It doesn't make it a good build. You're right though I've been put down my whole life, that's why I said this. How is being #1 diamond not relevant. How many build orders can take you straight to #1 diamond? It is totally relevant. Highest I got in phase 2 was rank 8 diamond with about 400 points, and you don't see me insulting anyone. Fact of the matter is that this build is solid. Masq uses a variation of this build against protoss where he cuts 3 rax and gets an early CC instead. The concept of no gas and mineral hoarding into a bio heavy army is the same, and it works. Just because it can be beaten doesn't mean shit. Fast banshees can be countered, does that make them worthless? No. Ugh... I'm not going to argue with you. Ok, #1 diamond at 260 points is the same as #1 at 700+ points. You win. Masq's build involves skipping gas to get a fast command center. That is not a variation of this build. It's completely different. You don't even understand what I am saying. He could be rank 100 diamond at 260 points, the point is that 260 points is still better than 95%+ of the people playing this game, so why insult him for it? Secondly if you can't see the similarity between masq's build and this one you need to get some help. The ONLY difference is a fast expand with slightly delayed rax. Both builds go all out minerals, both builds go mass rax, both builds go bio.
Dude, the two builds are really not similar. They have certain things in common as you've noted--they don't use gas, they get a lot of barracks and mass marines--but they're ultimately completely different.
The fast CC build is an economy-focused build where you build up a lot of marines to secure your economic lead. You use the marines offensively to delay P's tech to collosi, HTs or DTs. So even when you're attacking, it's a roundabout defense.
The 6 barracks mass marine play is an all-in play that will put you far behind if you don't do significant damage with the attack. The timing is designed to surprise and overwhelm the opponent before they're able to fully set up their military production. There's about a 60 second window where this attack can catch the opponent off guard and really do a lot of damage. Delaying the attack by throwing in a CC before your barracks completely surrenders this window of attack and instead forces you into defense and bunkers.
So although there are similarities, one build is an all-in attack with a narrow window of opportunity designed to win you the game in the first 5 minutes. The other is a defensively focused economy play designed to win you the game over the long haul.
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On July 22 2010 07:28 Sabresandiego wrote:
You don't even understand what I am saying. He could be rank 100 diamond at 260 points, the point is that 260 points is still better than 95%+ of the people playing this game, so why insult him for it?
If you name the topic "Simple T build got me to #1 in Diamond >" then yes, you will be rightfully be told you were advertising the topic and build unfairly as better than it is.
Same as if I said I'm euro#1 material. Later it's found out I'm actually "only" #50 in ranking and you were to defend "omg he's still better than 95% of you!!". Topic still gave false impression to people about he surviving better than was later proven.
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EPT
