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On July 21 2010 06:34 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 06:21 iEchoic wrote:On July 21 2010 06:17 Kiburn wrote:
...ALL using the delayed 6 rax build. That is pretty clear evidence that this build is completely viable. The build isn't viable, just because a build does well in low-diamond ladder matches doesn't mean it's 'viable'. It only works on ladder because anyone who plays him more than once can just counter it. It's a cheese. Making a million marines is never going to be a build that can be used in a tournament situation repeatedly. There are tons of cheeses where you can get to diamond and win games. How does that make them viable? In a best of 3 series a Z player can just make banelings and a p player can just forcefield his ramp indefinitely until he gets colossus or templar. A T player can have 2 siege tanks by time this attack hits. 2 siege tanks + walled choke would handle this. If, and IF, I look at you're replay, and you do everything right, and the opponent still defeats you BY TOO MUCH OF A MARGIN to call this build viable, then at that time, I will step up and admit that I was wrong and I will scrap this build as no good. But until then, I'll continue supporting this as a viable opening.
Your only evidence is ladder games (and only having a mediocre record in low-diamond as well) - nobody is blindly dismissing the strategy, they're just pointing out that tons of cheeses can get you into diamond but they're not reliable strategies. You can proxy gate in someone's base every game to diamond.
The game is down right now so if you can't discuss a strategy without the game being up to test it right now on, you might as well not post because you're just going to get frustrated.
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Anyone who says this build is not viable is a complete tool. No build is perfect, but this build is very strong. I am considering using a variation of this build as my standard opening from now on, I am a rank 8 Diamond player. Even if the marine rush fails, you now have 5-6 rax which is an awesome benefit. You can early expand, or get gas and tech. You can switch to mass marauders, or do a mix. You can do many things with this build considering you do not sacrifice economy, except early gas.
Also, what besides this strategy counters a 4 gate all in toss on blistering sands where he can break your back door? I was matched up against TLO who was playing Protoss, and I was still a newb in diamond. I did a standard terran build, and he just came through the back door with a 4 gate push and crushed me. Had I done this build I may have survived. What else stops a 4 gate push on blistering sands?
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Also, I am trying to modify this build to work against all races in all situations. Much easier said then done, considering that a large part of the strength of this build relies on no gas and 1 marine wall off, into mass rax.
My idea is to possible cut 1 or 2 rax in favor of gas for tech lab upgrades, or engineering bay upgrades, but that may destroy the build- And against banelings upgrades are worthless, the only answer is simply more marines.
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Your only evidence is ladder games (and only having a mediocre record in low-diamond as well) - nobody is blindly dismissing the strategy, they're just pointing out that tons of cheeses can get you into diamond but they're not reliable strategies. You can proxy gate in someone's base every game to diamond.
The game is down right now so if you can't discuss a strategy without the game being up to test it right now on, you might as well not post because you're just going to get frustrated.
I only played 50 ladder games, so its not wise to judge my skill on the few games I played. The record I posted earlier was gimpygimpy's not mine. Also, you're right about the last part, there's no point arguing about the build at this point, which is why I said wait til release.
The only thing I wanted to say about your last post is that you keep throwing in the word 'cheese.' What is your definition of cheese? Here is what Team Liquid says about cheese, and I agree with this definition:
Cheese is a negative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
This build (or rather, I should mention, MY adjusted version of this build, but basically the same basic concept of it) is neither. It is not impossible to defeat. As you stated-it's beatable. Nor is it EASY to defeat even when scouted. Why? because although marines are weak, we can all agree on that, the sheer number of them busting in with the first attack, is enough that, although beatable, does considerable damage before being beaten.
That's all I have to say. I'm not saying you're completely wrong. For all we both know, I could be terribly terribly wrong, as I only tried this build about 7 times in the Diamond league ladder games. All I'm asking at this point, is you admit this as a build that has POSSIBLE potential (note i'm not asking you to claim this as a great build atm), until release day. We can all do more testing then, TOGETHER, and figure out why it works or doesn't work.
The point for this thread, and my posts, are in hopes that we, as one community can put our ideas together for a build like this and understand TOGETHER why it works or doesn't work. atm, I just happen to stand on the side that believes it works, while you're standing on the side that doesn't. That's fair, but its also fair that we keep our minds open, no?
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On July 21 2010 06:51 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +
Your only evidence is ladder games (and only having a mediocre record in low-diamond as well) - nobody is blindly dismissing the strategy, they're just pointing out that tons of cheeses can get you into diamond but they're not reliable strategies. You can proxy gate in someone's base every game to diamond.
The game is down right now so if you can't discuss a strategy without the game being up to test it right now on, you might as well not post because you're just going to get frustrated.
I only played 50 ladder games, so its not wise to judge my skill on the few games I played. The record I posted earlier was gimpygimpy's not mine. Also, you're right about the last part, there's no point arguing about the build at this point, which is why I said wait til release. The only thing I wanted to say about your last post is that you keep throwing in the word 'cheese.' What is your definition of cheese? Here is what Team Liquid says about cheese, and I agree with this definition: Cheese is a negative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted. This build (or rather, I should mention, MY adjusted version of this build, but basically the same basic concept of it) is neither. It is not impossible to defeat. As you stated-it's beatable. Nor is it EASY to defeat even when scouted. Why? because although marines are weak, we can all agree on that, the sheer number of them busting in with the first attack, is enough that, although beatable, does considerable damage before being beaten. That's all I have to say. I'm not saying you're completely wrong. For all we both know, I could be terribly terribly wrong, as I only tried this build about 7 times in the Diamond league ladder games. All I'm asking at this point, is you admit this as a build that has POSSIBLE potential (note i'm not asking you to claim this as a great build atm), until release day. We can all do more testing then, TOGETHER, and figure out why it works or doesn't work. The point for this thread, and my posts, are in hopes that we, as one community can put our ideas together for a build like this and understand TOGETHER why it works or doesn't work. atm, I just happen to stand on the side that believes it works, while you're standing on the side that doesn't. That's fair, but its also fair that we keep our minds open, no?
Im still curious how terran stops a 4 gate push, or 3 gate robo timing pushes (which hit at around 7 min mark) on maps where you cant walloff due to a breakable back door (blistering sands)
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I think dropping one gas with the next 75 minerals after your 5 barracks will work well. You don't really sacrifice anything because the you will have more than enough for marines once the barracks actually finish. You should be able to get a tech lab on your first rax (the one you build at 12) around the time the barracks complete and you start pumping marines. Throwing a few marauders into the rally can't hurt, plus the lab allows for stim or combat shield. Not to mention it makes the build less all-in as you can drop a factory right after.
Also you should send a SCV a bit behind the opening push to build a bunker, the opponent will be focused on the 25 marines coming up the ramp while the bunker finishes, and your stream of marines will rally right into it. If the push fails the bunker contain will give you enough time to expand.
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On July 21 2010 06:55 RandomBS wrote:
I think dropping one gas with the next 75 minerals after your 5 barracks will work well. You don't really sacrifice anything because the you will have more than enough for marines once the barracks actually finish. You should be able to get a tech lab on your first rax (the one you build at 12) around the time the barracks complete and you start pumping marines. Throwing a few marauders into the rally can't hurt, plus the lab allows for stim or combat shield. Not to mention it makes the build less all-in as you can drop a factory right after.
Also you should send a SCV a bit behind the opening push to build a bunker, the opponent will be focused on the 25 marines coming up the ramp while the bunker finishes, and your stream of marines will rally right into it. If the push fails the bunker contain will give you enough time to expand.
That is a good idea, even dropping 2 gasses would work, considering the large influx of minerals you have from not mining gas for so long. You could still support the 6 rax constant marine prodction even with 2 gas because of mules.
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this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there.
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On July 20 2010 01:27 Shaithis wrote:
Mass marines have been effective forever, as they are probably the most powerful unit in the game in terms of cost / benefit, and are available at the start of the match. That said, this strat is definitely a form of cheddar as it relies on standard play from your opponent. The appropriate counter is to mass your own T1 and make some static D while doing a slow tech to a counter, as any time spent teching will result in you having a significantly smaller army than the marine masser when he comes knockin'.
Gonna bump my own post, since so many of you copper nubs still don't understand this basic concept. Quality of TL discussions has gone downhill so much in the past month that I think it's time to implement a rating requirement.
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Will upload replay of Avilo trying this no-gas 6 rax cheese against my P shortly. FWIW, we both finished beta fairly high up on the US server.
I played a standard 13-gate timing, and was planning to 4-gate because the Blistering Sands begs for early aggression. His attack fizzled pretty easily with a little stalker micro, and I was later able to pick of a group of marines with forcefields. I used DT's to buy time to expo and then eventually rolled over his marine-ghost composition with collosi.
All in all, the 6-rax cheese gives you a pretty scary 60 second timing window, but it's nothing that can't be handled with a little micro, and while it doesn't gimp your economy, it sets you WAY behind on tech, so DT's and collosi are big threats if the game goes into the middle stages.
Also, his APM is way higher than mine, but we had almost identical winning percentages.
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On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there.
If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech.
What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build.
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On July 21 2010 07:10 kcdc wrote:
Will upload replay of Avilo trying this no-gas 6 rax cheese against my P shortly. FWIW, we both finished beta fairly high up on the US server.
I played a standard 13-gate timing, and was planning to 4-gate because the Blistering Sands begs for early aggression. His attack fizzled pretty easily with a little stalker micro, and I was later able to pick of a group of marines with forcefields. I used DT's to buy time to expo and then eventually rolled over his marine-ghost composition with collosi.
All in all, the 6-rax cheese gives you a pretty scary 60 second timing window, but it's nothing that can't be handled with a little micro, and while it doesn't gimp your economy, it sets you WAY behind on tech, so DT's and collosi are big threats if the game goes into the middle stages.
Also, his APM is way higher than mine, but we had almost identical winning percentages.
I haven't used this build at all against protoss, just because of this. a few stalkers, and its no good. If they don't micro, its great, but thats something I won't risk. I only posted this as a viable strat against Z and T.
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On July 21 2010 07:14 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:10 kcdc wrote:
Will upload replay of Avilo trying this no-gas 6 rax cheese against my P shortly. FWIW, we both finished beta fairly high up on the US server.
I played a standard 13-gate timing, and was planning to 4-gate because the Blistering Sands begs for early aggression. His attack fizzled pretty easily with a little stalker micro, and I was later able to pick of a group of marines with forcefields. I used DT's to buy time to expo and then eventually rolled over his marine-ghost composition with collosi.
All in all, the 6-rax cheese gives you a pretty scary 60 second timing window, but it's nothing that can't be handled with a little micro, and while it doesn't gimp your economy, it sets you WAY behind on tech, so DT's and collosi are big threats if the game goes into the middle stages.
Also, his APM is way higher than mine, but we had almost identical winning percentages.
I haven't used this build at all against protoss, just because of this. a few stalkers, and its no good. If they don't micro, its great, but thats something I won't risk. I only posted this as a viable strat against Z and T.
thats not true, if you charge at the enemy base, sure you will lose a few marines to stalker micro, but they are expendable. Once you get to his base, he can no longer run away while you demolish his probes. All that stalker micro can screw up his macro too.
Having even 1 marauder with concussive shells would also be useful, and you can do it if you immediately get gas after plopping down your 4-6rax.
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On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there. If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech. What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build.
i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon.
not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe.
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On July 21 2010 07:21 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there. If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech. What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build. i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon. not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe.
Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas.
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On July 21 2010 07:23 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:21 mahnini wrote:On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there. If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech. What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build. i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon. not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe. Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas.
even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless.
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On July 21 2010 07:35 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:23 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:21 mahnini wrote:On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there. If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech. What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build. i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon. not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe. Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas. even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless.
You don't cut scv to pump out of 6 rax. And if your early marines cant go through a bunker, you simply switch to mass marauders and expand. Marauders beat tanks in early game.
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On July 21 2010 07:35 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:23 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:21 mahnini wrote:On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there. If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech. What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build. i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon. not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe. Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas. even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless.
The great thing about this build is that you don't NEED to get tanks or vikings. You can pump so many marauders soooo quickly compared to the amount of tanks coming out, and marauders already rape tanks, ESPECIALLY with stim. Tanks die so quickly to marauders. This also allows you too completely bypass the viking battle....no air units? nothing for vikings to kill. Land the vikings? Bye bye vikings, here comes armored units' worst enemy: marauders. Banshees? Its ok, I have turrets at my base already (you should have them by then), and I can disregard banshees, because I can bust in with all my marauders, kill whatever units you have, and kill your starport before your one or two banshees can kill ALL my marauders.
The thing is, you make good points, but with this opening, despite people saying I won't have enough money for everything, I'm on 5 raxes total, pumping units from each one and still having enough money left over to throw down a CC, and some turrets. Like i said, its cus
1) no energy wasted on scans
2) late gas=earlier mineral saturation and stockpiled minerals
Now, it was mentioned before, but the late gas means I get a slightly later stim, but honestly, with the sheer number of units I can get, its worth it all.
One of the most important things? Tank/vikings is incredibly immobile (well, the tanks anyway), so I maintain COMPLETE map control from the beginning. I already said I only played about 7 games in mid-high diamond with this, so I'm gonna need to do some more testing, but all 7 games, I was able to EASILY contain him from getting more than one base, cus they just can't move fast enough to defend against stimmed marauders waltzing around the whole map.
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The thing about mass marauders is that adding ravens makes them near-useless. You don't control the air so you can't stop them.
Dropping a PDD at an enemy's base who is massing marauders really decreases the power of their army. This is why BratOK and the like do marauder + viking and not just all marauder.
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On July 21 2010 07:55 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:35 mahnini wrote:On July 21 2010 07:23 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:21 mahnini wrote:On July 21 2010 07:11 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 21 2010 07:06 dekuschrub wrote:
this just shows how bad diamond really is...
as a terran player I can say that i would never lose to this unless you very cleverly hide your build. a bunker can kill so many marines its retarded, and then when the first tank comes youre toast.
could be a good cheese though no doubt there. If you have a bunker, a smart player doing this strategy would back off until he had the critical amount of marines to beat 1 bunker (like 12?). If you had a bunker with repairs, then a good player would just backoff, stop producing marines, and switch to mass marauders and either expand or tech. What makes you think a good player is going to suicide in all his marines if you have countered the build? He will adapt. The build is viable, you are foolish for thinking that you are forced to suicide all your marines with this build. i can't really judge this build too harshly because i haven't watched the replays (no longer works) but a single bunker has 400hp and only takes 5 dmg from marines. there's very little adapting to do because you cut scvs so early to get 750 asap to throw down 5 barracks only to end up having your 15-20 marines sit at the bottom of someones ramp while they hold height advantage, control the ramp, can get 100% cost back from bunkers, probably has siege on the way, and a cc starting soon. not to say that it will fail 100% of the time but terrans usually scan each other in tvt around the time their tech paths may diverge or earlier if they are unable to get a scout in your base. judging by the enormous lack of replays in this thread presented before beta went down i'm going to go ahead and say this build isn't quite as effective as most people in this thread want you to believe. Many of your points are correct, however I do not cut any scv's in this build ever. The only thing Im cutting is gas. even if you're only cutting gas if your initial bust fails you are very far behind. marines will melt to siege tanks so you won't really be able to pressure when he gets 2-3 sieged at his nat, you cut scvs to pump marines out of 6 rax, you haven't even started your fact yet so you will be way behind in tank count as well as viking count, you have no expansion, and all you have are tons of extra barracks which are practially useless. The great thing about this build is that you don't NEED to get tanks or vikings. You can pump so many marauders soooo quickly compared to the amount of tanks coming out, and marauders already rape tanks, ESPECIALLY with stim. Tanks die so quickly to marauders. This also allows you too completely bypass the viking battle....no air units? nothing for vikings to kill. Land the vikings? Bye bye vikings, here comes armored units' worst enemy: marauders. Banshees? Its ok, I have turrets at my base already (you should have them by then), and I can disregard banshees, because I can bust in with all my marauders, kill whatever units you have, and kill your starport before your one or two banshees can kill ALL my marauders. The thing is, you make good points, but with this opening, despite people saying I won't have enough money for everything, I'm on 5 raxes total, pumping units from each one and still having enough money left over to throw down a CC, and some turrets. Like i said, its cus 1) no energy wasted on scans 2) late gas=earlier mineral saturation and stockpiled minerals Now, it was mentioned before, but the late gas means I get a slightly later stim, but honestly, with the sheer number of units I can get, its worth it all. One of the most important things? Tank/vikings is incredibly immobile (well, the tanks anyway), so I maintain COMPLETE map control from the beginning. I already said I only played about 7 games in mid-high diamond with this, so I'm gonna need to do some more testing, but all 7 games, I was able to EASILY contain him from getting more than one base, cus they just can't move fast enough to defend against stimmed marauders waltzing around the whole map.
that's a good point. i wish replays worked so we can get some concrete evidence.
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EPT
