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On July 20 2010 05:08 Opti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 03:29 Kiburn wrote:On July 20 2010 03:19 Opti wrote:
So yeah it seems like overnight every T has decided this is their staple TvP build, and i just mass stalkers, and laugh at them. Thank so much to whoever pointed out stalker kiting/micro vs marines, really made this build a joke to own.
On a side note, when i mention 6 rax to a T player, I can immediately tell that they are going it, and if they don't, they will go for banshee cloak cheese since they know i will counter marines. Either way, by the time their banshees have cloak, i have killed most of their workers etc, and have cannons in my main.. then i just wait for robo to come up, get a few obs, and gg.
I find it a bit disturbing that, with how unbalanced TvP was anyway (leaning heavily in T favor after all the buffs) all of these plat/diamond level T are feeling the need to use these all in cheese builds. What ever happened to owning us poor P the normal way? First of all, T is not heavily favored over P...don't know who hit your head this morning....and second of all....you play against some uber noobs if they decide to do this against a Protoss player...its retarded...you don't even need stalkers, just keep building zealots and it'll rape this....that's just plain retarded.....play some better players. The only way to mass marines against a Protoss player would be to go 2 rax reactor/tech lab marine/ghost combo. You need to have combat shields and stim though for that. Its good if you do that, but thats the only way I can think of to use mass marines effectively atm against Protoss. Actually, with how all in this build is, zealots really can't put a dent in the build as long as the T does a tiny bit of micro. Literally in the time it takes the zealot to get to the pile, it dies, at best it gets off 1 swing, maybe 2, even if you push an entire line of zealots. I know what you're thinking, because i thought it too. Zealots > marine, especially in an open field, but when marines hit a critical mass they are one of the highest dps units available, and even zeals don't stand a chance. Maybe with charge and surround with tons of zeals, but typically this push happens far too early in the game to have chargelots. Secondly, yes T > P right now, mainly because 1 rax FE is extremely difficult to counter as P and puts the P at an eco disadvantage early. It's not a HUGE margin, don't get me wrong, and it's only that 1 rax FE that i think is so powerful. I beat T just as much as i lose to them, and I'm #7 on my diamond division (which admittedly isn't saying much since i only have just over 400 points) so i'm not just playing against total noobs. So really, if you think that going mass zealots will rape marines at critical mass.. im sorry but i think you're wrong. It's the same idea as when a MM ball hits critical mass. Sure in the early stages, chargelots, even zealots with just some decent FF usage will kill a MM ball, but later on the zealots just die too friggin fast to do much damage, because all of the MM get off a couple shots before the zeals even get into range. Of course at this point hopefully the P would have colossi stalkers etc, and so the fight is even.
You're right....but that's why the wonderful guys at blizzard put this thing in the game called chargelots
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On July 20 2010 05:13 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 05:08 Opti wrote:On July 20 2010 03:29 Kiburn wrote:On July 20 2010 03:19 Opti wrote:
So yeah it seems like overnight every T has decided this is their staple TvP build, and i just mass stalkers, and laugh at them. Thank so much to whoever pointed out stalker kiting/micro vs marines, really made this build a joke to own.
On a side note, when i mention 6 rax to a T player, I can immediately tell that they are going it, and if they don't, they will go for banshee cloak cheese since they know i will counter marines. Either way, by the time their banshees have cloak, i have killed most of their workers etc, and have cannons in my main.. then i just wait for robo to come up, get a few obs, and gg.
I find it a bit disturbing that, with how unbalanced TvP was anyway (leaning heavily in T favor after all the buffs) all of these plat/diamond level T are feeling the need to use these all in cheese builds. What ever happened to owning us poor P the normal way? First of all, T is not heavily favored over P...don't know who hit your head this morning....and second of all....you play against some uber noobs if they decide to do this against a Protoss player...its retarded...you don't even need stalkers, just keep building zealots and it'll rape this....that's just plain retarded.....play some better players. The only way to mass marines against a Protoss player would be to go 2 rax reactor/tech lab marine/ghost combo. You need to have combat shields and stim though for that. Its good if you do that, but thats the only way I can think of to use mass marines effectively atm against Protoss. Actually, with how all in this build is, zealots really can't put a dent in the build as long as the T does a tiny bit of micro. Literally in the time it takes the zealot to get to the pile, it dies, at best it gets off 1 swing, maybe 2, even if you push an entire line of zealots. I know what you're thinking, because i thought it too. Zealots > marine, especially in an open field, but when marines hit a critical mass they are one of the highest dps units available, and even zeals don't stand a chance. Maybe with charge and surround with tons of zeals, but typically this push happens far too early in the game to have chargelots. Secondly, yes T > P right now, mainly because 1 rax FE is extremely difficult to counter as P and puts the P at an eco disadvantage early. It's not a HUGE margin, don't get me wrong, and it's only that 1 rax FE that i think is so powerful. I beat T just as much as i lose to them, and I'm #7 on my diamond division (which admittedly isn't saying much since i only have just over 400 points) so i'm not just playing against total noobs. So really, if you think that going mass zealots will rape marines at critical mass.. im sorry but i think you're wrong. It's the same idea as when a MM ball hits critical mass. Sure in the early stages, chargelots, even zealots with just some decent FF usage will kill a MM ball, but later on the zealots just die too friggin fast to do much damage, because all of the MM get off a couple shots before the zeals even get into range. Of course at this point hopefully the P would have colossi stalkers etc, and so the fight is even. You're right....but that's why the wonderful guys at blizzard put this thing in the game called chargelots
Ah yes, the magical world where Protoss has Charge, but the Terran doesn't have Stims and/or Shield.
You have a lot of experience playing as Protoss in Diamond. I can tell.
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On July 20 2010 06:01 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 05:13 Kiburn wrote:On July 20 2010 05:08 Opti wrote:On July 20 2010 03:29 Kiburn wrote:On July 20 2010 03:19 Opti wrote:
So yeah it seems like overnight every T has decided this is their staple TvP build, and i just mass stalkers, and laugh at them. Thank so much to whoever pointed out stalker kiting/micro vs marines, really made this build a joke to own.
On a side note, when i mention 6 rax to a T player, I can immediately tell that they are going it, and if they don't, they will go for banshee cloak cheese since they know i will counter marines. Either way, by the time their banshees have cloak, i have killed most of their workers etc, and have cannons in my main.. then i just wait for robo to come up, get a few obs, and gg.
I find it a bit disturbing that, with how unbalanced TvP was anyway (leaning heavily in T favor after all the buffs) all of these plat/diamond level T are feeling the need to use these all in cheese builds. What ever happened to owning us poor P the normal way? First of all, T is not heavily favored over P...don't know who hit your head this morning....and second of all....you play against some uber noobs if they decide to do this against a Protoss player...its retarded...you don't even need stalkers, just keep building zealots and it'll rape this....that's just plain retarded.....play some better players. The only way to mass marines against a Protoss player would be to go 2 rax reactor/tech lab marine/ghost combo. You need to have combat shields and stim though for that. Its good if you do that, but thats the only way I can think of to use mass marines effectively atm against Protoss. Actually, with how all in this build is, zealots really can't put a dent in the build as long as the T does a tiny bit of micro. Literally in the time it takes the zealot to get to the pile, it dies, at best it gets off 1 swing, maybe 2, even if you push an entire line of zealots. I know what you're thinking, because i thought it too. Zealots > marine, especially in an open field, but when marines hit a critical mass they are one of the highest dps units available, and even zeals don't stand a chance. Maybe with charge and surround with tons of zeals, but typically this push happens far too early in the game to have chargelots. Secondly, yes T > P right now, mainly because 1 rax FE is extremely difficult to counter as P and puts the P at an eco disadvantage early. It's not a HUGE margin, don't get me wrong, and it's only that 1 rax FE that i think is so powerful. I beat T just as much as i lose to them, and I'm #7 on my diamond division (which admittedly isn't saying much since i only have just over 400 points) so i'm not just playing against total noobs. So really, if you think that going mass zealots will rape marines at critical mass.. im sorry but i think you're wrong. It's the same idea as when a MM ball hits critical mass. Sure in the early stages, chargelots, even zealots with just some decent FF usage will kill a MM ball, but later on the zealots just die too friggin fast to do much damage, because all of the MM get off a couple shots before the zeals even get into range. Of course at this point hopefully the P would have colossi stalkers etc, and so the fight is even. You're right....but that's why the wonderful guys at blizzard put this thing in the game called chargelots Ah yes, the magical world where Protoss has Charge, but the Terran doesn't have Stims and/or Shield. You have a lot of experience playing as Protoss in Diamond. I can tell.
^ This pretty much. If you had read the entire post, you would have noticed that i went over chargelots. Yes it would be effective, but do you have charge + enough zealots to counter 30-40 marines at the 5 minute mark? I didn't think so. But again, as i have already mentioned, this build is not a problem for P, we simply go mass stalkers and kite the marines. They die very easily. Eventually youll put a big enough dent in his marines that he will be forced to retreat. Keep pressure on, expand etc (b/c by this time your base will be fully saturated and youll have enough resources to expand and tech) while the terran is basically SOL. If you just keep pushing at this point with stalkers youll win. Just make sure you get detection, i see alot of terrans go from all in marine cheese to all in cloakshees cheese.
I think really the most interesting aspect of this all is just how incredibly deadly a ball of marines is. They really are one of the highest dps units in the game, and when upgraded stim, combat shield etc, become a truly powerful t1 unit. I think in a straight up fight they would take down any other upgraded t1 unit in mass. Very interesting point for all the terrans who boohoo about how underpowered marines are. Strength in numbers.
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On July 20 2010 04:59 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 04:19 Zyke wrote:On July 20 2010 03:25 Kiburn wrote:On July 20 2010 01:34 Zyke wrote:
Ok, Kiburn, but that:
1. Sacrifices upgrades
2. Still puts 10 marines against a walled in 5 marines and a tank.
3. If Tanks and Vikings make it to Mid-game in tact, the harass on expansions is a tangible threat and MM doesn't get past tanks. 1) No, it doesn't...you're gonna be on 2 bases to his 1...you can make more units than him, AND still upgrade. And also, this build finishes the game in 12 minutes maximum-that's the longest TvT game I've had with this build because about 12 marines get to his base around the 5 minute mark (which already makes your #2 argument null-siege tanks and siege mode cannot be complete by then), and reinforcements of 6 marines are sent twice. I'm in mid-high Diamond (top 25) so I play against decent opponents, and most of the time, the marines cannot win the game. However, it puts serious pressure on him and by the time he finishes the marines off, he will have a tank and a few marines, and by that time, my first wave of 6 marauders are already completed. I don't attack right away, but wait for the next wave of 6 twice (total of 18 marauders, and move in then. This wins the game most of the time. In the case that it doesn't, like I mentioned, just build turrets, which allows for upgrades at the ebay, and I've already had stim and conc shells for a while. 2) already addressed 3) In case you didn't know, marauders RAPE tanks, especially with stim. Marauders to somthing like 20 damage to tanks per shot which means 8 marauders one shot a tank, and I always have way more than 8 marauders. Stimmed marauders make quick work of tanks. Vikings? Vikings are a joke to marauders...even WORSE than tanks..plus...again, turrets in-base? This is a really good opening...only thing I would change, is get one less rax in the beginning, cus I'm too low on minerals most of the time. but other than that, this build is really versatile. Wait, you want to sacrifice troops for an expand? That's at least 4 marauders. You can't have an all in push with an expansion. The money you spend on economy will make the push weak. Now with strategy: An un-sieged tank with 5 marines destroys 10 marines if it has position. You see, the ramp makes it so that I get to fire with all my units and you get to fire with half your units. You move men up the ramp to fire with all units, I get at least two free shots. Short work. The marauders rely heavily on the first marine rush. By then I have 3 tanks, tech and some fluff marines or more if you don't do any damage with the ramp attack. This means the 8 marauders you send don't win. Especially if I'm not dumb when placing the tanks. First of all, this is NOT an all-in...its an OPENING. Second of all, you WON'T have 3 tanks and tech coming by the time I have marauders in your base, and even if you do, tanks get obliterated by marauders in such small numbers (like 3 tanks)...I can bust a supply depot(if you wall), stim, run in, AND kill all three tanks with the 18 marauders I'd have.
Having 18 marauders is assuming you have significantly more money than the other player. This is a dangerous assumption.
You claim: 12 marines, 18 marauders, 4 tech labs, and an expand can be made and brought to bear on an enemy within 7 mins.
I claim: 600+1800+400(supplies+400+900 (Barracks)+150 (refinery) + 500 (10 scvs) + 100 (upgrade stims)=4850
The saturation of base gathering is 880 mins/sec. This will not happen until beyond the 5 minute mark. This does not even count pulling off workers for gas or protection with turrets.
The math says that this is not possible, you come up short by over 800 minerals.
Evidence points to no. [QED]
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yay for abusive strategies that dont teach you anything about the game
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Gotta abuse the strats that give auto-wins so that Blizzard balances the game.
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Or you could just whine on here how you are 1000000000 dimond and everyone else is a terrible noob.
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On July 18 2010 16:17 gimpy wrote:
I'm gimpygimpy currently 1# in Diamond league Grizzly Rho 260. No add-ons or engineering bay unless push don't work. The key is how easy it is to deny scout early. Rine off 1st rax is all he sees. Making the 5 extra rax all at once after scout is dead is quick and easy to hide. OLs are running away at this point, scan location is predictable, toss got no way to scout that early. Before other scouting methods rdy for opponent, I'm knocking with huge dps that reinforces fast. They probably think I'm FE off 1 rax most of the time cause they see no gas or extra raxes early. The delay is confusing.
Just wanted to share. Enjoy!
*Ahem* According to http://starcraftrankings.com/
You are:
![[image loading]](http://www.roliax.com/gimpy.png)
Hardly unbeatable! Hardly #1 Diamond either.
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Hardly unbeatable! Hardly #1 Diamond either.
LOL, Nice investigation! Try clicking ON THE NAME gimpygimpy and tell us what you see? Diamond much?
How do my last 13 1v1 games look to you? 11 wins and 2 losses in diamond with delayed 6 rax not to bad is it?
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Fail much at website navigation?
Click the name, you see a Diamond icon there? How about his stats: 1v1 74 Games 43 Wins
Man people are really trying to disprove the viability of such a strat to the level of even getting stupid in their attempts.
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the truth of the matter is that this is a cheese play. It may work well because people still dont know much about the game, but this build allong with may others will very soon be pushed to the side by standard opens that can defend it very well. I think it is more worthwhile looking at macro based strats that will lst longer
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Thank so much to whoever pointed out stalker kiting/micro vs marines, really made this build a joke to own.
Haha you're welcome, and I'm glad you're having succes with it. Basically going mass stalkers allows you to slowly go down your preferred tech path as well, whereas a terran using this build is probably going to be delayed incredibly (which is why it is an allin)
Stalker micro does require a lot of attention and control however, anyway cheers to your succes
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this entire thread makes me kind of ashamed to be a part of this community.
on the one hand, a cheese build and a player bragging about massing marines. on the other, a bunch of people determined to prove how much smarter their build is than all this cheese.
then there's the investigations into player records and comparing numbers, bragging, theorycrafting, etc.
a little civility would go a long ways
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People need to stop writing off every build because of its flaws. EVERY BUILD has flaws. This is actually an extremely powerful build, props to the original poster. I am also a diamond player that tries random off the wall strats.
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I have played against this build and can say that it is incredibly powerful versus protoss. It basically makes all 1gate tech builds obsolete because the protoss will never have enough troops to hold off the first push without dying or being behind. The problem is scouting. If you don't get your probe into the base and scout the extra rax's going up then you think the terran is fast expanding. But it is too easy for terran to deny the scout. Seriously his build is solid and Blizzard will probably do something to fix this. I suggest making hallucination take less time to research so a protoss can scout terran faster.
Just for credentials look up my rank my ID is ShineBear http://starcraftrankings.com/
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On July 20 2010 15:39 mecra wrote:
Fail much at website navigation?
Click the name, you see a Diamond icon there? How about his stats: 1v1 74 Games 43 Wins
Man people are really trying to disprove the viability of such a strat to the level of even getting stupid in their attempts.
Wasn't trying to disprove the strat, just question his credibility. Ironically the link did not work for me.
Anyways, if the build works for you, go for it. If it works for others, go for it. Doesn't matter to me. Hell, I may even try it.
PS.
Since the link doesn't seem to work for me, I don't understand how scrankings.com's data can be innaccurate...it directly pulls the data from the profile page and updates every 30 mins or so (not that the data is changing right now anyways). Maybe you can enlighten me on this.
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On July 21 2010 00:24 roliax wrote:
PS.
Since the link doesn't seem to work for me, I don't understand how scrankings.com's data can be innaccurate...it directly pulls the data from the profile page and updates every 30 mins or so (not that the data is changing right now anyways). Maybe you can enlighten me on this.
what are you talking about.
the picture posted says 'updated 20 hours ago'
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People these days make illogical arguments despite the obvious evidence sitting before them.
gimpygimpy:
43 wins 31 losses total
Most recent games
11 wins vs 2 losses
...ALL using the delayed 6 rax build. That is pretty clear evidence that this build is completely viable.
NOT to mention, from what I'm reading of these comments, I can infer that none of the people calling this build crap have actually TRIED it. Why? Cus I see comments like:
"I'll have 3 tanks by the time you come with the first wave of marines."
That's not even close to true. You'll have one unsiegable tank AT BEST.
Also, to this post:
Having 18 marauders is assuming you have significantly more money than the other player. This is a dangerous assumption.
You claim: 12 marines, 18 marauders, 4 tech labs, and an expand can be made and brought to bear on an enemy within 7 mins.
I claim: 600+1800+400(supplies+400+900 (Barracks)+150 (refinery) + 500 (10 scvs) + 100 (upgrade stims)=4850
The saturation of base gathering is 880 mins/sec. This will not happen until beyond the 5 minute mark. This does not even count pulling off workers for gas or protection with turrets.
The math says that this is not possible, you come up short by over 800 minerals.
If you read my post carefully, you would have seen that this is exactly why I would cut one rax from the original build, because then it would work. And the way I do this build against terran, I'm getting a pretty late gas, so I stock up a lot of minerals earlier on, which lets me expand AND constantly produce from 5 NOT 6 barracks. With the original 6 barracks, if I start producing marauders, one rax is always not queued. that one less rax can actually make up for the 800 minerals (not all of it, but most), and since I don't need to scan with this build, I don't waste energy on anything other than mules also.
I never once claimed that this build was perfect. Nor did I EVER say that its the best. What I AM saying, and for some reason, people just seem to want to bash me for suggesting such a thing, is that this is just a VIABLE OPENING.
That's all I claim. It's a decent, viable opening. Just because TLO hasn't used it, or MAKA never mentioned it, doesn't mean its not viable. I'd bet my right hand that if Day[9] were to say one day that this build is amazing, 3000 people on the forums would suddenly start posting threads about the invincibility of this build. That's what makes me sad. That people can no longer think and brainstorm for themselves, but instead cry that something is OP or that something is not viable.
Think, and make this game your own, people. Don't just blindly do standard builds without opening your mind to new ones that have just as much potential.
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On July 21 2010 06:17 Kiburn wrote:
...ALL using the delayed 6 rax build. That is pretty clear evidence that this build is completely viable.
The build isn't viable, just because a build does well in low-diamond ladder matches doesn't mean it's 'viable'. It only works on ladder because anyone who plays him more than once can just counter it. It's a cheese. Making a million marines is never going to be a build that can be used in a tournament situation repeatedly.
There are tons of cheeses where you can get to diamond and win games. How does that make them viable?
In a best of 3 series a Z player can just make banelings and a p player can just forcefield his ramp indefinitely until he gets colossus or templar. A T player can have 2 siege tanks by time this attack hits (you say 1 unsieged tank but that is not true at all. Rushing siege tanks can get you very fast tanks, especially if you go gas first or go 9rax). 2 siege tanks + walled choke would handle this. You could even make a baneling-proof choke (two layers or only production buildings) and set your 2 tanks out of attack range.
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On July 21 2010 06:21 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 06:17 Kiburn wrote:
...ALL using the delayed 6 rax build. That is pretty clear evidence that this build is completely viable. The build isn't viable, just because a build does well in low-diamond ladder matches doesn't mean it's 'viable'. It only works on ladder because anyone who plays him more than once can just counter it. It's a cheese. Making a million marines is never going to be a build that can be used in a tournament situation repeatedly. There are tons of cheeses where you can get to diamond and win games. How does that make them viable? In a best of 3 series a Z player can just make banelings and a p player can just forcefield his ramp indefinitely until he gets colossus or templar. A T player can have 2 siege tanks by time this attack hits. 2 siege tanks + walled choke would handle this.
Can people read my previous posts at least, if they're gonna keep saying the same thing other people say? I said it once, I'll say it again...this build, with just a little adjustment, can be a viable OPENING. Meaning what? THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO TRANSITION OUT AND SET YOURSELF UP FOR A DECENT MIDGAME.
This strategy requires a bit of micro. Is that everyone's problem? That it isn't BW and that you have to ACTUALLY micro stuff with this strategy?
Idk what it is that's making people blindly reject this build. Just stop.
Wait til release, try it out, and if it still doesn't work for you, then send me the replay, and I'll TELL you what you're doing wrong with it. There's no use theorycrafting now, with no way to test it.
If, and IF, I look at you're replay, and you do everything right, and the opponent still defeats you BY TOO MUCH OF A MARGIN to call this build viable, then at that time, I will step up and admit that I was wrong and I will scrap this build as no good. But until then, I'll continue supporting this as a viable opening.
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EPT
