Somebody did something similar to me. Massed marine like crazy... I went for mass stalker and speed to templar... I had just a few templar out.. when he was killing the probes... Too late...
Btw: Stalker get own by marine... Marine shoot faster and cost less so in small number Stalker win but in large number... even with the range marine win... and the attack animation of the stalker make almost imposible to outmicro the marine.
Only speed build to the counter work. 1 other thing that could work is the 2 speed stalker build by 4-5 min. He only have 2-3 marine... if you keep pumping stalker you will win. Only thing I see plausible
EDIT:
And serioustly... Protoss player... WTF... You all say go speed collosus go speed templar... go mass sentry... FF the ramp for eternity... He was in his base at like... 6-7 min with 25 marines... You cant have ANY of all that by that time... and you have to know its coming to have at least 2 sentry at start of the game to max out on energy to FF the ramp for a while...
+ he has constant reinforcements... He had a big line of marine always coming from his base... to the other... without knowing that build is coming.. .you can prevent it... but with all that reinforcements... i think you might not be able to hold it.
Thanks to gimpy for posting this strat. I’ve been running it and variants for a couple of hours and have found a few issues while being surprised at its general success. First, the plus side—like most all-mineral strats, there’s very little infrastructure cost (namely the OC, rax and depots) compared to most builds, and virtually every mineral is dedicated to the task of cranking out our versatile high-DPS hero the marine. There are no expenditures or delays dedicated to refineries or tech labs or anything else to distract from the mass marine mayhem. Now the downside.
One, it hasn’t worked very well at all in TvT at all based on the half-dozen games I’ve played. Conventional TvT is Tank/Viking, and siege mode is commonly up before the 7-minute mark, sometimes as early as 6:15. If you watch Gimpy’s replays, you’ll see that his army is just barely getting started by the six-minute mark, and if you move out any later than that you’re almost certain to run head-first into a couple of sieged-up tanks. The timing of this build’s push is such that it is absolutely useless when you’re facing the typical marine/tank/Viking Terran, as any Terrans with tanks will be dug in tight by the eight-minute mark, which is almost precisely when this build arrives at its opponent’s base. The little success I had against Terran was people screwing around with banshees or marauders. Against T/V, this build was 0-for-3 in a big, big way.
Against zerg, speedling/baneling is a major concern, and since banelings can be on the board by 4:30, you’re again dealing with an easy and commonplace counter. Zerg scouting capabilities aren’t as good as Terran’s against a walled-off opponent, but baneling bust and speedling/baneling into muta are common enough in ZvT that you’re pretty much playing rock/paper/scissors when you run this build against Zerg. I had a better than 50% win rate, but when I ran into competent speedling/baneling it was an automatic loss.
Protoss can guardian shield and forcefield the ramp, the latter being the backbreaker against this build. If their micro is off, you can sometimes focus down the sentries before engaging the rest of the army, but even then it’s not easy if you’re facing a 3- or 4-gate build. This was my best match-up in the games I played, though none of my opponents teched up to colossus. If I were going to use this build in any matchup, it would be TvP.
I had a 60%+ overall success rate against Plat/Diamond players, but I found the build to be inflexible and gimmicky. Like most cheese, when you run into a counter, you get countered hard and completely; I don’t doubt that gimpy is having success with it, but in my experience it's easily countered by some of the most common T and Z builds. It’s also a tedious build to play, as it’s a delayed all-in with the disadvantage of drawing the game out to twice the length of most strats that mass tier one units prior to attacking.
Wow...I just encountered this cheese for the very first time last night. It's definitely a very well timed attack since by the six minute mark I won't even have my baneling nest up yet. He had a rax and 2 supply depots as you said walling off but I saw 3-4 marines as I ran up his ramp with my lings so I was going to go sling bling mutas. The most difficult thing to deal with is simply scouting this build. Maybe I should start saccing my ovies once I reach a specific food count rather than once I start building my lair.
Maybe I should start saccing my ovies once I reach a specific food count rather than once I start building my lair.
You should be scouting at least once with an overlord before going lair, generally a couple minutes after they get up their first unit building and preferably while you apply a little pressure or at least threaten his front so he can't totally focus on the overlord.
I quickly browsed through this thread and sorry if i missed someone saying this, but i checked his stats and if im correct about his nick, hes got like 350 points, with best in his division having 390. So he hasn't played actually good players with his strat, and we see again that ranking doesn't matter at all.
Your strat seems like an all-in that works if it's scouted and at least in TvT it's too easy to see something fishy is going on if you're not taking your gas at 13 or earlier.And walling-in in a TvT is very stupid so that really isn't a solution, because it even gives your opponent good reason to go for heavy tanks.
i played vs this strat yesterday and i had no problem. banelings demolish those marines. i have to admit that my opponent was by far not playing "well" and didnt apply much presure. im a ~350 plat player and there is ofc much to improve on my side aswell.
from my point of view i dont think this will work against any Z who scouts well. if you dont scout it (overlord sac after wallin) it should be an easy win for terran as you NEED to cut drones to get mass speedlings and banelings. if the terran does denie any scouting i think Z will die because normaly you react with extra queens when you only see lots of marines (at least thats what i do because i fear banshees comming) even if the Z goes for hydras its in favor of the T player as there will me to many marines before Z can reach a critical hydra mass.
i gonna add the replay in about an hour when im at home.
The problem is, that most of the leagues aren't really established yet. If you play an all-in cheese, for example proxy 2 gateways at 10/18 and chrono boost zealots, you can get #1 Diamond in no time. Most of the games aren't any longer than 5 minutes, you have a high chance to win about 50-60 % and all that's left to do is play a lot of games. So I guess his build has a good chance to win, but it won't make him a better player in the end
What do you do about 3 early Tanks? I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the most prolific TvT strategy right now, Vikes and Tanks. Lets say you DO have 30 Marines out of 6 barracks. I'll be nice and say ony 25 need to be made with the 5 newly built barracks.
This is all relative of course to the build that only includes 6 Rax and supply depos. My time analysis starts after the first Rax. If he decides to research I get even more of a time and money advantage.
Tell me, which would you prefer, 3 sieged tanks and 5 or so marines on walled on high ground or 30 marines? I would go with the tanks.
I am also being really generous, here. I didn't count the time it takes for them to save that much and I didn't count the time it takes for them to get to my base.
Is my build common? Common enough: see 1 Rax Fact. I am scared of Marauders and marines early game, so I prepare for it. My conclusion is the same as several other posters, this is not an all around solid strategy for you. It's very risky.
Ok, so this is my second post on this thread. First one I mentioned that I tried this out and it works pretty well from high plat, where I was, to mid Diamond, where I ended up since I first used this strat (I didn't use this strat every game, obviously). Here's what I've found:
Against a fe-ing zerg, obviously this strat works really well...they just don't have enough units to defend, even if they build roaches, the sheer number of marines rolls over the zerg player. Saccing an ovie is very important here. I always built the 5 barracks in an unusual place where it is least likely to be scouted so look for that.
Surprisingly, this is a very good opening against terran as well. I usually attack when the first production cycle of marines from the newly built 5 raxes are completed. At that time, a siege tank will just pop, but siege mode will not be ready. you will be able to kill the siege tank and hopefully win the game if he doesn't have marines of his own. Usually, I will produce 2 more cycles of marines before I stop. Meanwhile, I have been putting up my gas and expanding with the excess minerals. At this point, the opponent will most likely continue producing tanks, and the marines become useless. However, you simply need to build tech labs on all the barracks, and start producing marauders. The number of marauders will be too much for the little number of siege tanks/marines he has.
This has won me the game 100% of the time. If the opponent is decent, he holds it off and starts getting banshees, but by that time you should already have an ebay and produce turrets at your mineral lines. This happened to me twice. Both times, I just built turrets in my base for protection and busted in with my stimmed marauders because:
1) Banshees mean that he's seriously cutting tanks, especially since he won't have an expo (that's another thing...marauders are great for map control) 2) The few Banshees he has can't attack your base cus of the turrets, and he has to defend against you.
Even with banshees defending, however, 5 raxes (should be more since you're on two bases for a while..I usually have 7 or 8) constantly producing marauders allows quick destruction of buildings and tanks...there's just not much they can do.
Oh yea, and thors? Also no good against marauders. So, I like this as an opening, not so much as a cheese allin type thing against T.
Mass marines have been effective forever, as they are probably the most powerful unit in the game in terms of cost / benefit, and are available at the start of the match. That said, this strat is definitely a form of cheddar as it relies on standard play from your opponent. The appropriate counter is to mass your own T1 and make some static D while doing a slow tech to a counter, as any time spent teching will result in you having a significantly smaller army than the marine masser when he comes knockin'.
Little bit of clarification, I wait longer to attack z and p generally. If I'm attacking terran, I only lay down 4 extra rax (for 5 total) and attack earlier before siege mode finishes. Terrans tech straight to tanks and vikings pretty regularly, so gotta get there quick. Don't mean to draw flame, but I'm still cranking out diamond wins at high win rate, and I'm no pro for sure.
Ok, Kiburn, but that: 1. Sacrifices upgrades 2. Still puts 10 marines against a walled in 5 marines and a tank. 3. If Tanks and Vikings make it to Mid-game in tact, the harass on expansions is a tangible threat and MM doesn't get past tanks.
I'll echo your statement about Banelings giving this build trouble.
I actually had someone do this against me. He was taunting me and told me what he was doing (just said bio push). I confirmed it with scout and still FE'd as Zerg. Moped the the floor with just a couple banelings, spinecrawlers and a handful of zerglings. This was on Steppes of War.
The all-in seems pretty strong if you catch someone off guard, but if they are expecting it I think you might be in trouble anyway. The advantage seems that you have a ton of Marines but it's not all that hard to get a couple defenses up.
Have you thought about nixing one of the barracks and getting a techlab for stim instead? Might delay it slightly but woulnd't that just make your push so much stronger or is the delay too long?
Terran is so broken T_T I have faced this on ladder, as protoss, this is pretty hard to stop, especially if they have EMP and take out your sentries before you can forcefield half their army..
I just lost to this build last night. I play Terran. I did scout it and built hellions(w/igniter) via reactor + mauraders. I was over confident and the marine numbers were just too much especially since when I play vs terran, I don't wall off bc of seige tanks. I realize this was more late game and my oppoent didn't push early but still. If I played correctly, I should have won. More hellions + seige tech should own this. Obviously the most important thing is to scout it though.
Sigh, I really want to see people play against a good terran that executes this build. People think that they can block this so easily because they either haven't played against this build, or because they played against a player that couldn't execute this build very well.
Lets face it, most people that go for all-in rushes are people who cannot win as many games playing standard. And i too agree that playing only all-in builds aren't going to get you any skill. but the fact that someone uses an all-in build doesn't always mean that he cannot win playing standard. White-ra is known well for proxy gating and cheesing, does that make him a noob?
People tend to discredit people who cheeses, but if no-one cheeses, why would anyone block their entrances, get a defensive 10 gate instead of a 13gate probe chronoboost, or a defensive 12pool gas instead of a 14hatch 15 pool? It's that people who can actually play well without relying on cheese, can execute cheese builds ALOT better than full-time-cheesers, and when you play against it, you don't realize that you would have lost to that guy even if you played standard.
"if you scout it, it'll so easily countered" -> when your entrance is blocked and you're saving up 750 min before you build your raxes, the scout will surely be dead, and sacing the overlord is too much of a game that early in the game
"why wouldn't I just put down two bunkers when i see no gas and completely own this build?" -> why would you ever build two bunkers before you even see what's coming. what if your opponent sees your bunkers and just expo and go gas? you're not gonna be so much ahead in tech, and you'll be very behind in economy.
"I'd go fast collossi and beat it" -> even if you rush into colossi, you can be beaten if your opponent sees you don't have enough units in the front and goes for an earlier timing rush. and if his scv survives long enough to see the robo goes up(note that to rush colossi, you should go robotics before your stalker comes out, and if you build it after you kill the scv with the stalker, it's not such a fast colossi anymore. and if the scv sees the really fast robo, he can simply add 2 gas and build 2rax instead of 5, and go for a 1 rax, 2 techlab rax MnM push, which your 1 gate army won't have any chance against. and of course, getting an observer would just mean that your robo won't do anything.
"if he puts 4 reapers in a bunker your're screwed" ->if you weren't going for reaper rush in the first place, it wouldn't be a good idea to go for reapers just because you didn't see a gas. he'll still get some marines even if he's fast expanding.
"a drone can kill you waiting for 750 min" -> you get rines from your first rax...
I'm a diamond league protoss player (#30-40), and I do not play terran, nor have I played against this build. but I know for a fact that when I scout my opponent and he doesn't have a gas up, I automatically think between 1.proxy rax? 2.fast expo with bunker? or 3.expo on island? I send 1 more probe as soon as I see there is no gas to see if there's any proxy, and my probe will get killed when the second rine comes out. by this time i'll see there is no proxy. then I should think between 1 base all in rines, or hidden or bunkering natural expo? or did he put 2 gas when my probe died and 3gate MM push? and I'll have to choose between 2gate robo or 3 gateway. I would risk too much going for 1gate 1robo in case he takes a faster timing rush with less rax. I would hope that he's not expoing because he'll be economically so much ahead if he bunker up and expand, and I fail to kill it). now considering how fast the rax and marine builds, my robo won't do much at all. i'll be able to get an immortal in time, which won't be that great against rines, and my collosus won't be up in time. and if he's actually a good terran player that's executing this build, he would move out with 2 rines and 1 scv heading towards his nat, and maybe stard building a depo there to look like he's expanding. my probe won't see the mass of rines behind those 2 rines, and I'll be like " well I only see 2 rines, and he's pushing my probe out to deny scouting" and when he uses 1 rine to follow my probe to the middle of the map-ish (with the mass of rines following), by the time I actually see the mass of rines, his army will be halfway to my base, and I'll have to chronoboost my sentries to deal with them. and of course, again, if he's a good terran, he'll micro the damaged rines back so i can't kill them easily, while trying not to get caught off guard with my force fields. do note that if i use guardian shield, i probably won't have enough mana at that timing push to use a force field. I'll have to use my probes and have great micro to survive that battle, and given that the terran can kite my probes and zealots well, I'll have a difficult time dealing with this early all-in rush. if i barely hold this off with some probe losses, he'll be in a great shape with all the raxes and scv's intact. leaving my midgate that much harder to deal with.
if "beating an all in build" is easy, why do professional gamers lose to jae-dong's 6 pool or fantasy's hidden 3 rax build? it's because people assume that their micro and gamesense is better than people who cheeses, and that he would easily beat his opponent if they both played standard.
when is the last time you typed "gg, well played" to a player that all-in baneling himself to victory?
EPT
