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Zolton your making a fool of yourself. Fast tech to banshees is probably the worst counter to this strat I have heard on here. Banshees are not even good against marines and even if you did get cloak he could easily save a scan.
Furthermore your 1 hellion and bunker will never hold against this and your one banshee will die instantaneously. Hellions are not good against marines early game and your bunker will go down instantaneously unless you keep 2 idle scvs just chilling beside it. If you did manage to hold, it would only be because you knew it was coming, when most of the time people will have only 1minute and probably less to react to this.
As well the guy you tried to flame was talking about his reaper seeing the no gas....nothing looks stupider then flaming someone when you didnt understand their post.
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maybe if p is going 4 gate he can ff his ramp long enough to get enough zeals and sentries to stop this. most good 4 gates hit around the 6:30ish mark anyways.
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On August 07 2010 00:21 statikg wrote:
Zolton your making a fool of yourself. Fast tech to banshees is probably the worst counter to this strat I have heard on here. Banshees are not even good against marines and even if you did get cloak he could easily save a scan.
Furthermore your 1 hellion and bunker will never hold against this and your one banshee will die instantaneously. Hellions are not good against marines early game and your bunker will go down instantaneously unless you keep 2 idle scvs just chilling beside it. If you did manage to hold, it would only be because you knew it was coming, when most of the time people will have only 1minute and probably less to react to this.
As well the guy you tried to flame was talking about his reaper seeing the no gas....nothing looks stupider then flaming someone when you didnt understand their post.
Ok dude- wheres your play expierence? I might not be a pro- but im top diamond and have been since the beginning of beta. Hellions ROAST marines, the whole game, and bunkers hold just fine vs marines with SCVs on them. The other poster, was his first post, and he said A reaper opening will see you go for no gas, and it's not that an uncommon opening for TvT .
If he was trying to say, "Reaper openings are quite common and good against marines, which is a no gas opening," He didn't. If you want to play this build against me i'm all for it, Ill go fast banshee you go 5 rax marine and we see who wins.
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I just said that someone going for a reaper opening (which is not that rare) would see whether someone was going for the 6 rax no gas build, no need to rage so much -.-
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On August 07 2010 00:39 Zoltan wrote:
If you want to play this build against me i'm all for it, Ill go fast banshee you go 5 rax marine and we see who wins.
I would like to see that. Although, it wouldn't be fair because marine side would just turret up and life would be over as you know it. But normally t doesn't know that, so maybe fast banshee works. I think some people are thinking you'll use your banshee against his marines. But obviously you would keep him in his base until you built 4+. With cloak, 4+ banshees are pretty scary even against their counter, marines - scan, run, come back 5 seconds later. Besides, even if you are scanning and successfully shutting down banshee harass, as long as I don't die them, my economy is going to be so far ahead.
Actually, in a typical scenario, a fast banshee keeping the marines busy in base should give you way more than enough time to have at least one tank and AT LEAST siege mode started - done if you didn't get cloak.
But let's look at the marines side. He has overwhelming odds against fast banshee. He could turret, kill them with great micro, started out with a sim city - you're fucked if that happens. Even if there is 6 rax on the side, the main thing is obviously economy at this point in the game and just one well placed turret can hold a sim city down very well. Not only that, this build is very easy to play out, so you generally will have a better time defending/gaining an army without losing much. So banshees are finally out of your base, you have a very fast, large amount of marines with 6 coming every round. Looking like you are in the best shape of your life, until you find yourself a siege mode tank. After that, it's a loss because mega rax doesn't work in TVT as well as tech does. I do agree with the marine side in saying hellions early is a waste. You need at least 3-4 against a large number of marines.
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Lol at the beginning of this thread. Everyone's first reaction is "wtf someone thinks he's good b/c he's number 1 diamond, must convince him he sucks".
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Zoltan, you may think you have been top diamond since the begining of the beta...but there hasn't been a diamond since the start of beta.
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Since this thread is active and for some reason I still can't post new threads, going to put this here, as it relates.
I'm currently top five in my gold league (I know, scrub, in my defense only been playing the game 4 days), but can't seem to progress into platinum league. I'm hotkeying well, maintaining production, and I usually dent my opposing player's productive via a banshee strike to his mineral line at around 5-6 minutes in, but I seem to have a few of the following problems as the competition has improved:
(1) Expanding bases. After I have 2 barracks, 2 starports, and a factory, I'm usually ready to expand. I build the cc in my main base, upgrade it to orbital cc and then pick her up and move her down to my natural expansion. However, this expo usually gets whiped. I tend to have 6-10 marines, 2-4 marauders, and 2 siege tanks by that point to expand, and I try to time the expansion to my banshee harass. Inevitably however (especially against toss players), that expansion gets whiped by a stalker attakc or by a marine/tank/marauder ball around 7-9 minutes in.
What can I do to better protect/ensure my expansion goes? Instead of using those units to defend, should I send them to attack and by myself extra time? Should I abandon my early banshee build altogether?
(2) Protoss. I have been having a damned hard time against protoss lately. I beat most zerg, and win more than I lose against terrans, but I probably lose 2/3 to protoss players at my current level.
I seem to just have no answer for mass stalkers, either alone or supported by a few collossi. I have stopped going ultra viking as I've found they just can't put a dent in a mass stalker attack at all. I've tried heavy siege builds, focusing on marauders with slow-tech improvement, nothing seems to work.
I'd appreciate some veteran toss/terran player advice on how to counter stalkers. I've tried ghost's emp (a little bit beyond my micro skill currently as I never seem to catch the attack early enough for the emp to matter), heavy banshee (1 observer ruins that), heavy siege (doesn't seem to do it for some reason), not finding any reliable solutions.
Here's my build order:
9 sup dep at choke point
11 racks at choke points
14 gas
16 sup at choke point to finish wall
from there I go factory, tech at factory, pick it up and land the factory elsewhere, building my starport in the mean time which I then drop onto the factory's tech to get banshees going.
I'll then research cloak, get a squad of 4 banshees, have a siege tank to defend against rushes with siege mode, and my above mentioned marine/marauder ball for defense.
With my 4 banshees ready and clock almost finished, i'll start builing my second CC, send the banshees out and do the expo right when the banshees start hitting the guys mineral line (which fails if the guy has properly protected against banshee cloaks).
Let me know your thoughts guys. I'm trying to get up to platinum. Thanks.
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On August 07 2010 01:11 Chunkybuddha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 00:39 Zoltan wrote:
If you want to play this build against me i'm all for it, Ill go fast banshee you go 5 rax marine and we see who wins. I would like to see that. Although, it wouldn't be fair because marine side would just turret up and life would be over as you know it. But normally t doesn't know that, so maybe fast banshee works. I think some people are thinking you'll use your banshee against his marines. But obviously you would keep him in his base until you built 4+. With cloak, 4+ banshees are pretty scary even against their counter, marines - scan, run, come back 5 seconds later. Besides, even if you are scanning and successfully shutting down banshee harass, as long as I don't die them, my economy is going to be so far ahead. Actually, in a typical scenario, a fast banshee keeping the marines busy in base should give you way more than enough time to have at least one tank and AT LEAST siege mode started - done if you didn't get cloak. But let's look at the marines side. He has overwhelming odds against fast banshee. He could turret, kill them with great micro, started out with a sim city - you're fucked if that happens. Even if there is 6 rax on the side, the main thing is obviously economy at this point in the game and just one well placed turret can hold a sim city down very well. Not only that, this build is very easy to play out, so you generally will have a better time defending/gaining an army without losing much. So banshees are finally out of your base, you have a very fast, large amount of marines with 6 coming every round. Looking like you are in the best shape of your life, until you find yourself a siege mode tank. After that, it's a loss because mega rax doesn't work in TVT as well as tech does. I do agree with the marine side in saying hellions early is a waste. You need at least 3-4 against a large number of marines.
no the first banshee is enough... plus with proper micro the banshee will really cut the marines up, even without cloak. Its fast, flies, outranges the marines by 1, and 2 shots them. The hellions i get in that build because i have extra minerals, and if i scouted the megarax (which either his push or my first banshee would), i just get a tech lab on my fac, and build a siege tank. I don't think you all realize how fragile marines are (especially without stim or shield), and while im not saying this build dosen't have its place; it does; its just not in TvT. This build is GREAT in 2v2s, and also can probably be decent as a cheese against toss / zerg once in awhile.
Then again a few sentries with forcefield could hold this off for plenty of time for the toss to get templar / colossi tech...
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On August 07 2010 01:25 Bair wrote:
Zoltan, you may think you have been top diamond since the begining of the beta...but there hasn't been a diamond since the start of beta.
Stop being petty, you know what he meant to say. Zoltan has been contributing to Terran strategy for a long time, and you would be a fool to brush off his advice.
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@jungle:
see how many units u have with 4 gate and than see if these units can defend against 12 -15 marines with 6 marines arriving every 25 to 30 seconds. U can try this in the Yabot. i wasn't able to defend this but i suck at toss ... if u manage to defend this pls post a replay.
@Zoltan:
Reaper openings are quiet common yes, but defending them is also quiet common. Look at the timeframe ... 3 reapers max before terran is at ur choke. Reaper harass just changes the situation (delay) but doesn't make the make this cheese any less efficient since u will have nothing in ur base due to the eco/army sacrifice for the reapers. As for the banshees ... i can't see how this is supposed to work but maybe u can elaborate. Its already almost impossible to get a sieged tank out in time, i can't see how u manage to get a banshee or even cloak by the time the rines walk up ur ramp. This is not about what you can do to counter ... this is about what u have at 6 mins into the game. The cheesing terran will hit ur hightech structures fist so maybe u'll get a uncloaked banshee during the attack but i really can't see how this will do anything to fend off the rines. But since ur diamond maybe u can post a BO that would be on time? And this is assuming u know whats comming ... btw its not like 12 - 15 rines and thats it ... 6 rines streaming in every 25 seconds. With helions and banshee u really need gosu micro, because your choke block will fall instantly and the rines will hit tech and building structes.
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On August 07 2010 01:50 Troy47 wrote:
Since this thread is active and for some reason I still can't post new threads, going to put this here, as it relates.
I'm currently top five in my gold league (I know, scrub, in my defense only been playing the game 4 days), but can't seem to progress into platinum league. I'm hotkeying well, maintaining production, and I usually dent my opposing player's productive via a banshee strike to his mineral line at around 5-6 minutes in, but I seem to have a few of the following problems as the competition has improved:
(1) Expanding bases. After I have 2 barracks, 2 starports, and a factory, I'm usually ready to expand. I build the cc in my main base, upgrade it to orbital cc and then pick her up and move her down to my natural expansion. However, this expo usually gets whiped. I tend to have 6-10 marines, 2-4 marauders, and 2 siege tanks by that point to expand, and I try to time the expansion to my banshee harass. Inevitably however (especially against toss players), that expansion gets whiped by a stalker attakc or by a marine/tank/marauder ball around 7-9 minutes in.
What can I do to better protect/ensure my expansion goes? Instead of using those units to defend, should I send them to attack and by myself extra time? Should I abandon my early banshee build altogether?
(2) Protoss. I have been having a damned hard time against protoss lately. I beat most zerg, and win more than I lose against terrans, but I probably lose 2/3 to protoss players at my current level.
I seem to just have no answer for mass stalkers, either alone or supported by a few collossi. I have stopped going ultra viking as I've found they just can't put a dent in a mass stalker attack at all. I've tried heavy siege builds, focusing on marauders with slow-tech improvement, nothing seems to work.
I'd appreciate some veteran toss/terran player advice on how to counter stalkers. I've tried ghost's emp (a little bit beyond my micro skill currently as I never seem to catch the attack early enough for the emp to matter), heavy banshee (1 observer ruins that), heavy siege (doesn't seem to do it for some reason), not finding any reliable solutions.
Here's my build order:
9 sup dep at choke point
11 racks at choke points
14 gas
16 sup at choke point to finish wall
from there I go factory, tech at factory, pick it up and land the factory elsewhere, building my starport in the mean time which I then drop onto the factory's tech to get banshees going.
I'll then research cloak, get a squad of 4 banshees, have a siege tank to defend against rushes with siege mode, and my above mentioned marine/marauder ball for defense.
With my 4 banshees ready and clock almost finished, i'll start builing my second CC, send the banshees out and do the expo right when the banshees start hitting the guys mineral line (which fails if the guy has properly protected against banshee cloaks).
Let me know your thoughts guys. I'm trying to get up to platinum. Thanks.
1) You probably aren't doing as much damage as you think you are with your banshees. You are sacrificing alot of units to tech up and if you try to expand soon after you aren't going to have the units to defend. And are you saying you are losing your banshees? I didn't see them mentioned in what units you had to defend. If you are losing your banshees also... it just makes it tougher.
2) Marauder + stim will own stalkers alone.
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On August 07 2010 02:21 volkar wrote:
@Zoltan:
Reaper openings are quiet common yes, but defending them is also quiet common. Look at the timeframe ... 3 reapers max before terran is at ur choke. Reaper harass just changes the situation (delay) but doesn't make the make this cheese any less efficient since u will have nothing in ur base due to the eco/army sacrifice for the reapers. As for the banshees ... i can't see how this is supposed to work but maybe u can elaborate. Its already almost impossible to get a sieged tank out in time, i can't see how u manage to get a banshee or even cloak by the time the rines walk up ur ramp. This is not about what you can do to counter ... this is about what u have at 6 mins into the game. The cheesing terran will hit ur hightech structures fist so maybe u'll get a uncloaked banshee during the attack but i really can't see how this will do anything to fend off the rines. But since ur diamond maybe u can post a BO that would be on time? And this is assuming u know whats comming ... btw its not like 12 - 15 rines and thats it ... 6 rines streaming in every 25 seconds. With helions and banshee u really need gosu micro, because your choke block will fall instantly and the rines will hit tech and building structes.
Ok- the timing on the 5rax is just not as fast as it needs to be to beat my banshees by that much. I dont know if you are walling in TvT But I definatly do not. Since hellions are so fast i use them to scout after i build them, and they will certainly see the marines coming to my base: even if i bork my micro and it dies, i will still have a bunker up with 4 marines in it. I'll have all the time i need to send SCVs to repair my bunker, and laugh while his marines die one after the next coming up to it. In the meantime, I will still be producing marines, hellions, and soon banshees.
Bo is something like:
10 depot
12 rax (pump marines on completion)
12/13 gas
15 oc
17 fac (hellion upon completion- tech lab once that finishes)
17 depot
18 2nd gas
~19 bunker
~ 19 starport (once finished techswap with factory)
banshee + cloak.
edit to elaborate onthe timings:
his 1st rax and my 1st rax finish at the same time. He didnt get his geyser so his mineral count is going to be higher than mine (by around 150 - 200 for the time window it matters).
he dosent start his 2-5th raxs until 750 mins, by that point, i will have had my factoy start and finish, and my starport should start about the same time as his rax- the barracks may be a few seconds faster. My banshee will come out the same time as his 2nd round of marines from these new rax. This means our comparative armies will be: HIM: 15-17 marines, ME- 5-6 Marines, 1-2 hellions, 1 banshee. With my marines in a bunker and SCVs repairing, THE WORST he could do to me is kill my repairing SCV to get a slight econ advantage- then he better have turrets up or he just straight loses the game. Scans dont cut it against banshees being microd.
In addition- if i scout him massing marines with a scan (i usually use my 2nd energy on cc for a scan), I would build a siege tank. Usually when i see no gas i assume FE, so i go banshee, which is almost a garunteed win against FE. If i missed the megarax build and assumed he was FEing, I still think i could hold with my banshee, hellion, and bunker. You would have to beat me with this strat to make me change my mind, as on paper it just looks bleak for the marines. 5 marines every 20 seconds just isnt that scary.
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I dont if some of you criticizing Zoltan are actually skill Terran players because he is doing what is standard for a lot of terrans now the 1-1-1 build. Banshees are strong cloack or not and they two shot marines. If he puts down a scan all he has to do is fly away and come back in like 5 seconds. Hellions do great damage against marines. I have seen my diamond level friend defend 5 marines on his ramp with a hellion and about 2 marines. They do massive damage. So for those of saying that Zoltan is not good and doesnt know what hes talking about just stop talking. 1-1-1 can transition to just about anything and a few bunkers will give you time to do so
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On August 07 2010 01:56 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 01:25 Bair wrote:
Zoltan, you may think you have been top diamond since the begining of the beta...but there hasn't been a diamond since the start of beta. Stop being petty, you know what he meant to say. Zoltan has been contributing to Terran strategy for a long time, and you would be a fool to brush off his advice.
I wasn't being petty, I was being a smart ass. And seeing as how I play zerg, he cannot offer me as much as you seem to think. He may be the best terran players and one of the greatist contributors to terran strategy, I just personally do not like players who feel the need to justify themselves with their rank, especially in a thread talking about a simple T build getting #1 in diamond.
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I dont if some of you criticizing Zoltan are actually skill Terran players because he is doing what is standard for a lot of terrans now the 1-1-1 build. Banshees are strong cloack or not and they two shot marines. If he puts down a scan all he has to do is fly away and come back in like 5 seconds. Hellions do great damage against marines. I have seen my diamond level friend defend 5 marines on his ramp with a hellion and about 2 marines. They do massive damage. So for those of saying that Zoltan is not good and doesnt know what hes talking about just stop talking. 1-1-1 can transition to just about anything and a few bunkers will give you time to do so
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Thanks for the reply oxxo. Additional question:
Weapons or Armor - Which upgrade is better all purpose? when is one upgrade versus another preferred?
I usually tend to focus on weapon upgrades for ships as I use them as a harass unit with micro. Whereas I tend to do armor stuff for my marines and vehicles.
Am I doing it wrong?
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Ranged units in large clusters fare better with +Damage because you can bring more guns to bear than what the enemy can attack. (Especially against zerg)
Slow attackers usually fare better with armor and fast with damage IMO.
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I've been messing around with this build some in custom games and team games and tried it out today in a 1v1 ladder game. First game I got a top 10 rated platinum player (I'm mid gold because I just don't play much 1v1, 7-1 so far with the loss to someone who is diamond now). He actually did go with fast banshee and I was able to kill his smaller group of marines, the tank that popped out and then a cloaked banshee came out, I scanned him and dropped it pretty fast and killed his tech lab and then the 2nd popped and I was able to wreck his econ before the banshee killed off too many of my marines. Once another scan went online I only had about 7 marines but I was able to drop the other banshee and it was gg. Even if I hadn't been able to he had no econ at all and a single banshee wasn't going to do much.
I really think the fast banshee idea is going to struggle against this as long as the terran has a scan. In the future I'll probably bring a couple SCV with me so I can drop a tower just in case or a bunker if the fight doesn't go smoothly.
Having said all that, I generally lose against Protoss players with this, I don't know if the build just doesn't work vs them or if I'm doing something wrong. Works fine vs Zerg that doesnt' go insta roach and works against more or less any Terran build but Protoss just defeats it. Thing is Protoss is usually my easiest matchup so I think I'm going to just swap back to my normal build vs them.
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On July 18 2010 14:26 gimpy wrote:Kinda goofy but I play T and this build has been working against all 3 races. Pretty much just standard depot, rax, depot, rine to deny scouting, orbital command and save 750 min to build 5 rax similtanously where scouting is difficult. SCVs the whole time. Push at about 6 min to avoid tanks and pop. Making rax as you go slows this down cause of scvs not mining. When all rax build, you can support constant pump and depot and scv production. Banelings a prob, but good micro still wins it for me  Just wanted to share this all-in cause I haven't seen this build from anyone else yet, and I can't seem to lose!
Wow, Must take a lot of.... Skill
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EPT
