[D] Simple T build got me to #1 in Diamond - Page 19
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XiaoZhuPa
Singapore30 Posts
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gimpy
United States72 Posts
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gimpy
United States72 Posts
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Keap
United States214 Posts
![]() He could have def controlled better tho | ||
Nah
Poland50 Posts
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Mrbustanut
121 Posts
On August 11 2010 07:32 Nah wrote: Did you see the variation of this? Making a bunker expo and THEN 5-6 raxing. Protoss opponent might see the expo and put one on his side therefore falling into the trap of upcoming tide of marines. Ya, I think masq made that build a while ago. | ||
mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
Let me get these 2 things straight: - This is a viable build, and it's very strong against Protoss. Please do NOT try to argue against it if you haven't encountered it first hand yet. - The OP suggested to wait for 750mins before building the rax - that's a VALID tactic since Starcraft 1. Iirc since 2003 Boxer began to always build 2 rax at 300mins when he double raxed, and later Oov made building 4 simultaneous facts (after FE) a standard practice on Luna. One benefit of this trick was so that SCVs don't obstruct each other when they were constructing buildings next to each other - this has been fixed in SC2 and no longer true. But the second benefit - which is much more important - still remains: by doing so, you (a) gain some extra mining time, (b) you later train units in cycles since your units need to reach a number to be useful anyway, (c) hold it til the last moment to have more time to clear the scout, and/or in case you need to switch to plan B if your scout discover something. Btw if someone has any idea on how to stop this as a Protoss, please share. I've just lost 2 games in a row to this (I'm 400 diamond) | ||
mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
- It's really hard to micro stalkers against this especially if you don't have a superior APM. because it requires much less control effort for the T than P if this becomes a rine vs stalker micro fight. - On Blistering Sands this build is even deadlier as there are 2 ramps for the toss to hold. I had to remove it from my map pool for now ![]() - Unless Terran's control is really bad, P just can't have enough time to tech to colossus or chargelot or DT - if you can, please prove me wrong with a rep. - I tried fast cannons into FE once, which could barely hold off the first and 2nd wave, but still couldn't transition it into FE and lost eventually due to being to passive with static defence. - The only counter idea that I could think of now is to mass sentry and add 1 or 2 zealots or stalkers to it - inspired by Tester vs Masq. Tester used sentries as the main attacking force, and he used FF to trap rines and break formation very well. It requires really really good micro to pull off though, I haven't had a chance to try it yet.. | ||
ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On August 14 2010 23:19 mrdx wrote: I tried to find any useful discussion on how to defend this as a P but OMFG this thread is full of garbage posts it was such a pain to read through 18 pages of mostly nerdrage. Let me get these 2 things straight: - This is a viable build, and it's very strong against Protoss. Please do NOT try to argue against it if you haven't encountered it first hand yet. - The OP suggested to wait for 750mins before building the rax - that's a VALID tactic since Starcraft 1. Iirc since 2003 Boxer began to always build 2 rax at 300mins when he double raxed, and later Oov made building 4 simultaneous facts (after FE) a standard practice on Luna. One benefit of this trick was so that SCVs don't obstruct each other when they were constructing buildings next to each other - this has been fixed in SC2 and no longer true. But the second benefit - which is much more important - still remains: by doing so, you (a) gain some extra mining time, (b) you later train units in cycles since your units need to reach a number to be useful anyway, (c) hold it til the last moment to have more time to clear the scout, and/or in case you need to switch to plan B if your scout discover something. Btw if someone has any idea on how to stop this as a Protoss, please share. I've just lost 2 games in a row to this (I'm 400 diamond) a) that makes absolutely no sense. how do you gain mining time by building something later? b) i rather have units faster even if they come out in a stream than in packs (which is not an advantage imo) c)if the scout is still in my base i will delay it a bit, however i will never wait if it isnt. Read these posts, I want this friggin argument to end On July 22 2010 19:41 ChickenLips wrote: I just played both builds (start building Raxes asap, wait for 750 minerals) and results are: insta-rax are about 30 seconds faster in getting 24 marines. Marine production starts way sooner and you are a lot less susceptible to weird early rushes. (waiting for 750 minerals took 6:50 to get 24 marines, insta Raxes took 6:15-6:20. if there are 16 scvs on minerals that have had time to adjust to each others mining cycles i cannot imagine that there are diminishing returns since they never interfere with other scv's mining. Other than that i fully agree, the waiting for 750 minerals is like the (double) extractor trick, feels kinda cool and effective, but is economically worse off. On July 22 2010 23:28 ChickenLips wrote: Test it in YABOT or something, you have the units 30 seconds earlier, that is HUGE for an early game all in push. I don't get why people theorycraft instead of just trying both things. Having minerals in the bank makes NO sense whatsoever. If you had to produce 200 marines it might be more convenient, but for an all in every second matters and I'd much rather (and it was proven by my tests) start marine production from as many raxes as my money flow allows, as possible. edit: i also dont care what pros did in BW, if there are no reasonable arguments for sc2. | ||
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