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[D] Simple T build got me to #1 in Diamond - Page 19

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 17 18 19 All
XiaoZhuPa
Profile Joined May 2010
Singapore30 Posts
August 07 2010 04:51 GMT
#361
What maps do you guys thumb down if any at all? (When doing these builds)
Eat Me.
gimpy
Profile Joined June 2010
United States72 Posts
August 10 2010 19:13 GMT
#362
Try this out in 3v3 or 4v4. Works great when all your builds mature around 6:30 mark. Its a steam-roll. I'm playing with some new teammates (no bw experience, little beta experience) and we've gotten to diamond with a nice 3/1 win ratio.
gimpy
Profile Joined June 2010
United States72 Posts
August 10 2010 19:18 GMT
#363
Kiting stalkers across the map and really good FF play can counter this build. Z still have few options, but they have to play brillianly. Build v T on Steps of War is an auto-win. I'm playing standard lately to improve my skill, and boy...this game is hard! I'll 6 rax just to get a win so I can feel better about myself!
Keap
Profile Joined July 2010
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 20:17:41
August 10 2010 20:16 GMT
#364
Just beat a diamond Terran doing this with 2 sentries, 2 stalkers, and 1 cannon lol. Opponent left the game when he scanned and saw twilight council

He could have def controlled better tho
Nah
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland50 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-10 22:33:02
August 10 2010 22:32 GMT
#365
Did you see the variation of this? Making a bunker expo and THEN 5-6 raxing. Protoss opponent might see the expo and put one on his side therefore falling into the trap of upcoming tide of marines.
Protoss wins it all
Mrbustanut
Profile Joined May 2010
121 Posts
August 10 2010 22:54 GMT
#366
On August 11 2010 07:32 Nah wrote:
Did you see the variation of this? Making a bunker expo and THEN 5-6 raxing. Protoss opponent might see the expo and put one on his side therefore falling into the trap of upcoming tide of marines.


Ya, I think masq made that build a while ago.
mrdx
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Vietnam1555 Posts
August 14 2010 14:19 GMT
#367
I tried to find any useful discussion on how to defend this as a P but OMFG this thread is full of garbage posts it was such a pain to read through 18 pages of mostly nerdrage.

Let me get these 2 things straight:

- This is a viable build, and it's very strong against Protoss. Please do NOT try to argue against it if you haven't encountered it first hand yet.

- The OP suggested to wait for 750mins before building the rax - that's a VALID tactic since Starcraft 1. Iirc since 2003 Boxer began to always build 2 rax at 300mins when he double raxed, and later Oov made building 4 simultaneous facts (after FE) a standard practice on Luna. One benefit of this trick was so that SCVs don't obstruct each other when they were constructing buildings next to each other - this has been fixed in SC2 and no longer true. But the second benefit - which is much more important - still remains: by doing so, you (a) gain some extra mining time, (b) you later train units in cycles since your units need to reach a number to be useful anyway, (c) hold it til the last moment to have more time to clear the scout, and/or in case you need to switch to plan B if your scout discover something.

Btw if someone has any idea on how to stop this as a Protoss, please share. I've just lost 2 games in a row to this (I'm 400 diamond)
BoxerForever.com - the one and only international Boxer fansite since 2006 :)
mrdx
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Vietnam1555 Posts
August 14 2010 14:37 GMT
#368
To add some real discussion to this thread, here are my unorganized thoughts so far to counter this build as Protoss:

- It's really hard to micro stalkers against this especially if you don't have a superior APM. because it requires much less control effort for the T than P if this becomes a rine vs stalker micro fight.

- On Blistering Sands this build is even deadlier as there are 2 ramps for the toss to hold. I had to remove it from my map pool for now would love to be able to beat it on BSands someday.

- Unless Terran's control is really bad, P just can't have enough time to tech to colossus or chargelot or DT - if you can, please prove me wrong with a rep.

- I tried fast cannons into FE once, which could barely hold off the first and 2nd wave, but still couldn't transition it into FE and lost eventually due to being to passive with static defence.

- The only counter idea that I could think of now is to mass sentry and add 1 or 2 zealots or stalkers to it - inspired by Tester vs Masq. Tester used sentries as the main attacking force, and he used FF to trap rines and break formation very well. It requires really really good micro to pull off though, I haven't had a chance to try it yet..
BoxerForever.com - the one and only international Boxer fansite since 2006 :)
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-14 15:38:22
August 14 2010 15:37 GMT
#369
On August 14 2010 23:19 mrdx wrote:
I tried to find any useful discussion on how to defend this as a P but OMFG this thread is full of garbage posts it was such a pain to read through 18 pages of mostly nerdrage.

Let me get these 2 things straight:

- This is a viable build, and it's very strong against Protoss. Please do NOT try to argue against it if you haven't encountered it first hand yet.

- The OP suggested to wait for 750mins before building the rax - that's a VALID tactic since Starcraft 1. Iirc since 2003 Boxer began to always build 2 rax at 300mins when he double raxed, and later Oov made building 4 simultaneous facts (after FE) a standard practice on Luna. One benefit of this trick was so that SCVs don't obstruct each other when they were constructing buildings next to each other - this has been fixed in SC2 and no longer true. But the second benefit - which is much more important - still remains: by doing so, you (a) gain some extra mining time, (b) you later train units in cycles since your units need to reach a number to be useful anyway, (c) hold it til the last moment to have more time to clear the scout, and/or in case you need to switch to plan B if your scout discover something.

Btw if someone has any idea on how to stop this as a Protoss, please share. I've just lost 2 games in a row to this (I'm 400 diamond)


a) that makes absolutely no sense. how do you gain mining time by building something later?
b) i rather have units faster even if they come out in a stream than in packs (which is not an advantage imo)
c)if the scout is still in my base i will delay it a bit, however i will never wait if it isnt.

Read these posts, I want this friggin argument to end

On July 22 2010 19:41 ChickenLips wrote:
I just played both builds (start building Raxes asap, wait for 750 minerals) and results are: insta-rax are about 30 seconds faster in getting 24 marines. Marine production starts way sooner and you are a lot less susceptible to weird early rushes. (waiting for 750 minerals took 6:50 to get 24 marines, insta Raxes took 6:15-6:20.

Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 19:21 whatthemate wrote:
At first I was confused as to what Sabresandiego said, but now I understand what he theoretically suggested, but that doesn't change the fact that he is completely WRONG.

Practically speaking you have a much larger window of opportunity of attack if you place down barracks consecutively early asap and get more marines.

If you attempt the float 750 minerals style you will have less marines and timing attack goes out the window because all it takes is just a sentry to force field their ramp or your ramp and its all over while protoss tech so insanely fast to colossi. Also in the mean time protoss could easily get out a second nexus and more gas and mass cannon > marine.

scvs mine what less than say 50 minerals per minute because of diminishing returns. It's better to have less scvs on mineral line and use that scv to make rax because of diminishing returns. There are already dimishing returns as soon as your have more than 8 scvs on mineral line. So its better to make rax earlier and then return to mining.


if there are 16 scvs on minerals that have had time to adjust to each others mining cycles i cannot imagine that there are diminishing returns since they never interfere with other scv's mining.

Other than that i fully agree, the waiting for 750 minerals is like the (double) extractor trick, feels kinda cool and effective, but is economically worse off.


On July 22 2010 23:28 ChickenLips wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 22:34 kcdc wrote:
Regarding the 'waiting-to-build' argument, the number of scvs and total mining time once the barracks are completed is going to be the same whether you wait for 750 minerals or build continuously, so the total minerals you'll have is going to be the same. As long as you keep your minerals low, you'll have spent the same number of resources and will therefore have the same number of marines either way you do it. The difference is that building the barracks as soon as you have the minerals for them and constantly building marines from all completed barracks will give you more marines early and will slow the completion of your last barracks.

Theory aside, the 'build-as-you-go' style isn't really an option because you'll only be able to chase off the scouting worker once your marine is finished, and even then, it will take a while to chase the worker down. You're not going to push out with less than 8 or so marines, so the only way you can get to that number faster with by 'building-as-you-go' is if you can complete your second barracks to start the increased marine production before you start your sixth barracks. By the time you've chased the worker down with your marine, you'll be less than 60 seconds away from having the 750 minerals you need for the 5 barracks. IMO, it's just better to wait because it minimizes your opponent's scouting window, clumps your marine production in waves so they don't rally across the map alone, and assures you of the fastest possible wave of marines to start your push.


Test it in YABOT or something, you have the units 30 seconds earlier, that is HUGE for an early game all in push. I don't get why people theorycraft instead of just trying both things. Having minerals in the bank makes NO sense whatsoever. If you had to produce 200 marines it might be more convenient, but for an all in every second matters and I'd much rather (and it was proven by my tests) start marine production from as many raxes as my money flow allows, as possible.


edit: i also dont care what pros did in BW, if there are no reasonable arguments for sc2.
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