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On July 28 2010 15:38 jungle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 13:53 A3iL3r0n wrote:Edit: Actually, it could be a timing thing he uses. Once he has 750 minerals accumulated, building SCVs during this period, and he pulls 4 off mining to make the barracks, the completed barracks will be supported by sufficient income to train marines non-stop. i think that's what it is. to be honest i think the reason this push is so effective is because currently pretty much every popular build atm is an eco one. EDIT:imo cheese is like a gambit in chess. you sacrifice material or macro in order to gain a quick early game advantage.
....no, the reason why this is so effective is because:
1. Builds like this punish people with deficient macro (everybody in low diamond and below)
and
2. People don't actually care enough to counter things like this on the ladder - they just want to practice their own build and if they lose, they queue up again.
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On July 30 2010 02:23 gimpy wrote:Huh. I've used this build about 20 times as I'm laddering (mid diamond so far) and I've lost twice. Once to a T who bunkered in when he saw my rines pushing (it was on that sand map where we are furthest apart). 2nd was to a toss, don't remember how. It's been auto-win against z and p. I usually don't try it against t. That said, I prefer to do other builds cause I think rines will get a build-time nerf, but occasionally I just wanna win  This is new: I don't build the 2nd depot untill after all raxes building. Also, I cut scvs at about 18 untill the raxes finish. This speeds it up some. I attack when I have between 15 and 21 rines. I'll upload some current replays it anyone asks.
Not so auto-win against P now
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On July 19 2010 07:39 Markwerf wrote:
Just wanted to point at that it's nonsense it's faster to save up money for your raxes and then put down 5 at one time. Making them as you go is better simply because you get more rax time you could get the same number of marines while using a rax less then for example. Getting downtime on scv's would just be poor macro.
But scouting.....
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Someone want to explain how banelings don't prison rape this build into obscurity?
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On July 30 2010 12:48 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 15:38 jungle wrote:On July 28 2010 13:53 A3iL3r0n wrote:Edit: Actually, it could be a timing thing he uses. Once he has 750 minerals accumulated, building SCVs during this period, and he pulls 4 off mining to make the barracks, the completed barracks will be supported by sufficient income to train marines non-stop. i think that's what it is. to be honest i think the reason this push is so effective is because currently pretty much every popular build atm is an eco one. EDIT:imo cheese is like a gambit in chess. you sacrifice material or macro in order to gain a quick early game advantage. ....no, the reason why this is so effective is because: 1. Builds like this punish people with deficient macro (everybody in low diamond and below) and 2. People don't actually care enough to counter things like this on the ladder - they just want to practice their own build and if they lose, they queue up again.
It should also be noted, if you attempt to cut corners/delay units for tech this will most likely kill you also
ive died to it like twice trying to tech hardcore like i would vs a normal build
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Whats the best way to counter this if your toss and after scouting get suspicious this is gonna go down? ive lost to this like 3times now, plat player, like drop a forge wall off ramp wiht cannons ok? maybe force feild bottom of ramp if you need to buy time, like i donno wats the best way to beat this :S running a few stalkers to micro with em is still pretty hard if hes got a shit tonn of marines vs your like 2 or 3 stalkers :S
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force field to split army into chunks that you can kill and try to survive, if you do you win.
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i like this post. i don't know what those "awesome" players are smoking, but as we all know rock paper scissors is a big part of starcraft. this is obviously a "do it once in a blue moon" kind of things, so yes it is "possible" to defend easily, it is "possible" to defend it, and it's also "possible" to be completely obliterated by it. not every game should go 10supply 11rax 13gas 15orbital. no matter how sc2 is different from sc1, it's still pretty similar and seeing as how sc1 had about 20 different build orders for each race, i'd say posting builds like this is good.
and rather than arguing "this is shitty and horrible" it's better to argue "which build is it good against, which build is it bad against"
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This dies pretty well if you go 3 or 4 gate (rather 4) with a sentry/zealot heavy composition. I generally tend to go early sentrie when I see no addon and some marines poping out since guardian shield is your key to success. Also you need Zealots no matter if there are marauader or marines and good FF micro.
But I have to admit in a normal bread n butter ladder game I tend to get a robo up too - which makes it almost impossible to defend. Also this all-in wrecks havoc on maps like blistering sands with the backdoor or kulas with no high ground advantage.
Tough its really all-in and will not have a progress for long because it hardly has a follow up.
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trayed .. imba
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lol, this build makes me laugh... there are so many things that can stop this, but most zergs are in the mindset that they can't scout because of a wall, despite having overlords, I mean, just getting your overlord killed shows you some if not all of their unit composition, and protoss... well, not sure what they should do, but I don't really like protoss so I don't care much...
but I'd probably lose to this build if I was off my game.
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what if in the beginning you went 10supply11rax13gas, when you get 25gas have tech lab up, 100gas then get marine +10health upgrade and pull all scv from gas, then wait to build 5 rax? then all your guys would have 10 more hp.
Then well... it'll look much more like a standard build but not really at the same time so you have about 15ish scv count to kill the scout instead of having to kill it by about 13ish.
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Guis u should look at this build or at least try it out before before posting any comments.
1. How are u supposed to scout this? Look at the time frame. U go depot rax depot. This is the 13th scv which blocks the choke. If u cut a scv u can do this even faster. Try scouting this on a 4p map if u don't get lucky with the scouting direction. On Kulas this is instant chock block (rax depot). Even ur overlord has to get lucky if he wants to scout this in time.
2. Hiding 5 rax is really not that hard since u are not planing to add any techlabs or reactors to them. First 2 Terran scan are always CC and Choke. The third scan is too late anyway.
In TvP or TvZ u don't even need to hide it. Ovie can be denied and obs is too late.
3. U have 12 -15 rines by the time u arrive at the opponents base (5:46 mins - 6:20 mins). I think u can get ever more, but thats what i managed to get. And rines will keep on coming once the attack as begun.
As usual the timing is the important part of this cheese. If u think u can deal with this, fire up the the Yabot or BO tester and see what u can get or where u are at 6:20 mins into the game and 12 to 15 rines at ur choke. This is even hard to deal with if u see it coming.
As terran u can defend this if u scout reveals _EARLY_ENOUGH_ that there is no refinery. Throw down bunkers, keep pumping rines into bunkers, add repair scvs and tech to siege tanks.
As Zerg u really have hard time to scout or even hold this off if someone knows a working method, pls do share.
As toss i guess u could prolly FF the choke but how long can u keep terran down since u will run of energy and the rines will keep on coming. Also if terran sees that he can't go up the ramp he will start to tech and rines will eventually get shield making them even stronger. By the time the first colossi is out u will have a fearsome bioball at the bottom of ur choke. Even if u manage to zap terran into retreat, he still as map control and can therefore expand and tech up. Toss on the other hand cannot get out of his base, because his units do not stand a chance against the bioball in the open.
This strat is really imba right now so if someone finds counter measurements pls do share ...
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For the record- this would never, ever, beat a diamond T player. I haven't lost a single game where i scout my opponent go no gas in TvT- it just means i can straight tech to banshees. I'll throw downa bunker at my choke, fill it with rines, and build a hellion out of my factory. at ~6min in ill have 6 marines, 1 hellion, and a banshee thats 2/3 finshed with cloak 1/3 finished. You better break that bunker down FAST or else its GG. I just dont see this working TvT-
TvZ and TvP are different stories, however.
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You'll never finish cloak. If a terran walks into your base and see a starport with tech lab he will just kill your tech lab. 1 banshee isn't doing anything to a marine ball and 4+ barracks at the main base.
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On August 06 2010 23:40 EnderCN wrote:
You'll never finish cloak. If a terran walks into your base and see a starport with tech lab he will just kill your tech lab. 1 banshee isn't doing anything to a marine ball and 4+ barracks at the main base.
how do u get through the bunker + hellions with marines?
you dont.
edit: im so down for testing this when i get off work today. Go no gas and Ill go fast banshee and we'll see who wins.
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On July 18 2010 16:40 TheOracle wrote:. Plus bunkers are free
Snap! I have been paying 100 mins each for them like a n00b.
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On August 06 2010 23:18 volkar wrote:
As terran u can defend this if u scout reveals _EARLY_ENOUGH_ that there is no refinery. Throw down bunkers, keep pumping rines into bunkers, add repair scvs and tech to siege tanks.
A reaper opening will see you go for no gas, and it's not that an uncommon opening for TvT ![[image loading]](http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/spamafote.gif)
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On August 07 2010 00:10 Liebig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 23:18 volkar wrote:
As terran u can defend this if u scout reveals _EARLY_ENOUGH_ that there is no refinery. Throw down bunkers, keep pumping rines into bunkers, add repair scvs and tech to siege tanks.
A reaper opening will see you go for no gas, and it's not that an uncommon opening for TvT
1 post for the loss bro... reapers require early gas.
O you mean early reapers will SEE the 5 rax opening... yes thats true. If you can get reapers in their base before raxs 2-5 go up you can probably win ez with reaper. They do great vs marines.
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EPT
