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This happened to me once and cost me a placement match. I was toss, the guy massed literally nothing but marines. I saw the second rax so I assumed MM bio, and threw down for early charge. Unfortunally he caught me out of position right before charge finished and managed to kill most of my zealots (but I did put a huge dent in his army). He just kept macroing up though.... I had to warp in sentries like mad and keep the FF at the bottom of my base. I had literally nothing with my chargalot build since I normally expo and transition into templar - without collossi or templar or really good positioning you can't beat this. I kept him at bay for a minute until a rax arrived overhead and allowed his marines to bust my door down.
This build just macros like crazy. As long as the terran player isn't stupid and doesn't just lose his army instantly, and can keep marine production going the entire time (including in the fight) it's really hard to deal with if you don't have the tech. If this build catches you without the appropriate counter, it's GG. You need to assume mass marines if you don't see a refinery go up - I suggest stealing a gas if possible to see how long it takes him to throw the refinery down.
It's a huge shock when this build hits you, but I think it's counterable if you understand it.
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i dont understand... teching up to tier 1.5 unit should own againts any mass marine
roach>marines
stalker>marines
marauder>marines
im not sure about roaches though , can rines kite roaches? due to roach's slow movement speed
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Netherlands21 Posts
This is probably one of those builds that deserves Idra-rage, completely denying any decent mid- or late game.
As a protoss player I've been very much annoyed with PvT, as indeed by the time I am able to get an observer out it is usually too late. I now pretty much always 4-gate against terran, massing stalkers when i see marines and then tech to chargelots...
Still its "strategies" like these that kinda make the game a lot less fun to play (yes, I enjoy macro games), but as all early strategies; people will find ways to fend it off easily, and if not Blizz will make changes.
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I just had this build used on me, and basically when i went to do a standard push with 3-4 zeals, 5-6 stalkers and a few sentries, i just got annihlated. There's just no way to catch up.
As protoss, basically by the time the T is ready to push with this you will only have just gotten up your 2nd gas and you won't have the gas to go mass sentries (really, when would you ever?). If you tech quickly to rays or something, youre still going to be screwed (same for mutas etc) because guess what, rines rape air heh.
Basically you just rally your rines to their base once you have a good sized force, about 20 or so to start, then jsut rally em in and go go go. I was beaten in a TvT doing this but it was only because the other T did a blind fast cloaked banshee cheese, and even then, by the time he took out my marines i had taken out his economy and all non cloaked units etc.
I'm not really sure how you would go about beating this early game as toss, since basically stalkers die extremely quickly to mass rines, and zealots although they would be able to take this in large numbers and with sentry shield + charge, early game the kind of numbers of zeals yo ucan put out just wont cut it. Plus the threat of reaper harass is always present and so we are always expecting to have to make a stalker or 2, usually multiple since marauders are so powerful early game.
But yeah, I did this vs a zerg who basically just went "wtf?" after i took out 2 sunkens, all his lings, queen etc at his FE and then proceeded to even rape his roaches (and roaches are supposed to be very good vs marines right? high armor more dmg etc). Although his roaches were effective, by the time he had roaches coming out it was far too late, and my marines just overwhelmed them. The Lings couldn't even get to my marines to attack.. they just can in and died.
I'll agree that there are counters to this, but this is a very nasty all in build that is sure to catch 99% of players offguard.
Something else taht should be mentioned, you can pretty easily transition into other builds with this, like throwing up an expo, get gas, then throw tech lab/reactors on your rax, throw down fact/port and go MMM if your initial push doesn't work. I can't imagine what this wouldn't work against though.
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Netherlands21 Posts
I'm not really sure how you would go about beating this early game as toss, since basically stalkers die extremely quickly to mass rines
This is really only true for upgraded rines, whereas in these strategy, there is no combat shield or stim packs, meaning stalkers have longer range (6 over 5) and move faster. I'd say the "best" way to handle this is position your stalkers at the opponents ramp and start harrassing/kiting all the way back to your own base from there. This does take some micro, but once you get the hang of it, it's not that hard.
As soon as marauders (especially with concussive shells) get mixed in however, this kind of tactic won't work any more. However, I can imagine it will do fine against this high marine build
Also adding at least some sentries for guardian shield (decreases rine damage by 2!! each shot!!) is awesome.
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On July 19 2010 15:53 Tar-Moridin wrote:
This is probably one of those builds that deserves Idra-rage, completely denying any decent mid- or late game.
As a protoss player I've been very much annoyed with PvT, as indeed by the time I am able to get an observer out it is usually too late. I now pretty much always 4-gate against terran, massing stalkers when i see marines and then tech to chargelots...
Still its "strategies" like these that kinda make the game a lot less fun to play (yes, I enjoy macro games), but as all early strategies; people will find ways to fend it off easily, and if not Blizz will make changes.
And you think it's "fun" to play against the easiest and hardest to beat Toss strategy? (the 4 gate)
I agree that it sucks to play against them, but you have to come up with SOMETHING to beat the other race's cheese tactics. Gimpy was pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to beat 4 gate Tosses... (which is like almost all of them)
The Terran 1-1-1 and 6-Rax-All-Marine-In are the children of having to deal with that. Play different strategies and maybe the other races don't have to come up with so many All-In builds to counter. 
I'm working on an All-In ling build, but frankly, it's going to suck against wall-ins. 
and to others, frankly lings do better against marines than do roaches, depending on the composition.
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On July 19 2010 15:51 extempest wrote:
i dont understand... teching up to tier 1.5 unit should own againts any mass marine
roach>marines
stalker>marines
marauder>marines
im not sure about roaches though , can rines kite roaches? due to roach's slow movement speed
You can tech up, but you won't have the numbers. Marines in vast numbers pwn just about anything aside from large area effect damage units. (Banelings and Colossus for example)
Also, while stalkers > marines, you won't have enough stalkers to actually deal with the outnumbering you'll be facing. Same with marauders.
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Maybe microing stalkers like that would work, certainly something i can try and get better at.. god knows my stalker micro is kinda bad. Seems like alot of work to fend off a strat that any noob could do.. i mean really.. 10 supply, 12 rax, 15 OC, save 750 min, make 5x rax, bind all 6 rax to a key, hit q repeatedly, set rally point, win? (or hit a if you use standard keybinds, me i like the grid)
What can Z do against this though? I mean banelings are obvious, but once marines reach a critical mass, its going to be damn hard to get a baneling close enough to the pile to do any damage.
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Netherlands21 Posts
And you think it's "fun" to play against the easiest and hardest to beat Toss strategy? (the 4 gate)
I agree that it sucks to play against them, but you have to come up with SOMETHING to beat the other race's cheese tactics. Gimpy was pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to beat 4 gate Tosses... (which is like almost all of them)
Nope, however considering the alternatives:
- 3 gate robo --> immortals are useless and I won't have time to pump colossi.
- 3 gate stargate --> obviously bad idea
- 3 gate blink/charge --> could work with chronoboost (I've been doing this a lot too lately)
Then there's the forge and tech builds that leave you very vulnerable to either tech switches or early pushes.
Seems to me the 4-gate is the most logical way to respond to mass rines as it allows you to get the units you need to kill all those rines...
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On July 19 2010 16:23 Opti wrote:
Maybe microing stalkers like that would work, certainly something i can try and get better at.. god knows my stalker micro is kinda bad. Seems like alot of work to fend off a strat that any noob could do.. i mean really.. 10 supply, 12 rax, 15 OC, save 750 min, make 5x rax, bind all 6 rax to a key, hit q repeatedly, set rally point, win? (or hit a if you use standard keybinds, me i like the grid)
What can Z do against this though? I mean banelings are obvious, but once marines reach a critical mass, its going to be damn hard to get a baneling close enough to the pile to do any damage.
If you want banelings to work, you need them escorted by zerglings to soak the fire. Zerglings with some banelings have serious potential to counter mass marine. (Unit tester backs this up.  )
Experimenting with the unit tester also showed that it's not bad to attack-move the banelings in with the zerglings if you don't want them on separate control groups.
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just bury a bunch of banelings like landmines.
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Gimpy posted a vid where the zerg player DID do that to him yet Gimpy still won. Now, the zerg player also made mistakes on how he moved the banelings and such but Gimpy also made mistakes so they kinda came out to be a wash.
Not the best representation of Baneling usage, but you see an example.
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i just tried this against all terran match up,
im not sure whether i pulled this correctly or not but,
i found this very effective againts protoss since zealots are pretty useless againts mass marines with no charges (due to time of the push), plus the number of stalker is to few to pump againts this unless the toss gets a scout (which is completely impossible)
zerg's banelings with lings soaking up the fire obliterate the rines (just like mecra said)
as for terran my enemy he turtles up using reaper in bunkers + scv repairing (he scouted using reapers... the moment he saw multiple barrack coming down he pulls back).
ideally i found this strat to be effective in steppes of war then blistering sand, not so much on 2v2 maps.
but yeah, im still not sure whether i pull this one correctly, since i didnt watch the replay b4hand. gonna watch it now
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I think the main thing that this build does, and does very very well, is punish standard and FE builds. Standard Z 13 pool, 16 queen FE etc gets owned by this. Just about the time they are getting roaches and/or hydras or mutas and have both bases mining decently, youre knocking down the door with 30-40 marines. Burying baneligns would certainly end this fast, difficult to scout this though, since it is unlikely that the Z would have overlord speed at this point.
Maybe youd have to resort to mind games, "lure" the rines into a minefield of banelings by attacking with zergligns and then backing off. A good terran would scan though, so idk.
I was successful fending off a friend who went this build with stalker micro, but my god it was a pain in the ass. Basically it was a long slow uphill battle, but in the end, i was on a much more solid economy and 4 gate build that allowed me to expand and tech up while holding him off with stalker kiting, so i won. But damn, it was rough. Still, nice to know that this build isn't invincible (at least to toss)
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I held off mass marines like this before, all you have to do is hold the watchtower and when you see that many marines you immediately start Chronoboosting some Stalkers as Protoss.
Marines have a range of 5 while Stalkers have a range of 6, good micro and the fact that they have shields make it an easy job for Stalkers.
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Australia7069 Posts
i can vouch for this build. Worked for me in diamond vs all 3 races....just rofl
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I play zerg and I can say it's very hard to hold off this huge marine push.
Banelings usually does not reach marines if they are microed properly. I think you need fast infestors to stop this.
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seems pretty easy to stop with protoss, fast tech to collosi and forcefield ramp endlessly after scouting it.
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EPT
