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On July 19 2010 07:39 Markwerf wrote:
Just wanted to point at that it's nonsense it's faster to save up money for your raxes and then put down 5 at one time. Making them as you go is better simply because you get more rax time you could get the same number of marines while using a rax less then for example. Getting downtime on scv's would just be poor macro.
He makes them kind of "late" to not be scouted. If a zerg sees 2 rax, the bio rush is obvious.
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not that i don't appreciate that people want to share their strategies and everything but being #1 diamond literally means nothing due to the way divisions work. you're going to need to provide a few replays of this in order for it to be considered "legitimate".
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Someone did this to me back in beta phase 1. It was a TvT, I went fast reaper and saw he had no gas. Since we were playing Kulas, I figured that he'd just put up a ninja expo somewhere so I began to tech to a harassment force and was dead wrong when a bunch of marines showed up at my base a minute or two later.
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there is no way someone could reach n.1 diamond with this strat.
against zergs: banelings or roaches will destroy him
against terran: few marines +1 medivac will kill him
it may only work against protoss if not scouted...
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I think some people are underestimating how many marines u can have under the 6 minute mark.
although i dont use this build.. when i used to do marine all in's you can easily have 30-35 marines out by the 6 minute mark... this is ALOT of marines..
Im currently doing a +1 attack and shield push.. once both upgrades are done i move out with around 20 marines... its pretty hard to stop. Even if you do have enough roaches / stalkers.... reinforcments come in groups of 5. i transition into mech + expand.
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On July 19 2010 08:19 ayababa wrote:
I think some people are underestimating how many marines u can have under the 6 minute mark.
although i dont use this build.. when i used to do marine all in's you can easily have 30-35 marines out by the 6 minute mark... this is ALOT of marines..
Im currently doing a +1 attack and shield push.. once both upgrades are done i move out with around 20 marines... its pretty hard to stop. Even if you do have enough roaches / stalkers.... reinforcments come in groups of 5. i transition into mech + expand.
ive gotten owned by this build a few times, but without the ups it seems much weaker
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On July 19 2010 08:12 ilbh wrote:
there is no way someone could reach n.1 diamond with this strat.
against zergs: banelings or roaches will destroy him
against terran: few marines +1 medivac will kill him
it may only work against protoss if not scouted...
It's so so easy to do a build like this and prevent it from being scouted. How often does protoss fast stalker to 4 gate without it being scouted? Pretty much every 4 gate that's ever been done. It's the exact same concept, and even easier since terran can wall off and use 1 marine to get rid of workers and overlords.
I got hit by something like this build once and it is pretty scary for sure. I should have had a sentry to wall off and I probably would've stayed alive for a while, but mass marine can be hard to kill without higher tech, and the whole point of this build is to deny you the time to tech. Stop being so hard on the OP, you really don't need a replay to see that this can work. And you don't have to point out that it can be beaten. Everything can be beaten.
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This simply doesn't work against a good player. Sure sometimes people can get suprised by it but any good player who catches it in time can stop it easily.
Terran can just bunker up, Zerg can get roaches or just use queens + crawlers + zerglings and Toss can block the ramp. It's a known fact that cheeses work very well against subtop players because they often lack the scouting, adaptation and micro of the good players but practicing such a strat is basically useless.
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omg why does everyone do this? Sooooo annoying seeing these threads. I've seen dozens of them.
OK, a new division was created, you were the first one to win a couple of games and it put you in the #1 spot. It has happened to literally thousands of people. Your rank inside of a division means nothing, your point score, while skewed by the low number of games played and the bonus points, will give some kind of indication of where you're actually ranked, for some reason you didn't include that though. hmmmm.
This is an obvious brag thread which you made for absolutely no reason other than to write "I GOT #1 IN DIAMOND LOL!" in a thread title to feel good about yourself.
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On July 19 2010 08:45 Markwerf wrote:
This simply doesn't work against a good player. Sure sometimes people can get suprised by it but any good player who catches it in time can stop it easily.
Terran can just bunker up, Zerg can get roaches or just use queens + crawlers + zerglings and Toss can block the ramp. It's a known fact that cheeses work very well against subtop players because they often lack the scouting, adaptation and micro of the good players but practicing such a strat is basically useless.
knowing / practicing any viable build is not useless... sure it might not be great when your playing against someone good who can stop it..
but it also helps to know the build if someone tries it on you.
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also, you're not going to beat any good player by building 1 marine and then saving up a thousand dollars and pushing out 6 minutes later. That's ridiculous. This can only possibly work if your opponent just decides to sit in his base and do absolutely no early pressure or harassment at all. 1 zealot and 1 stalker (which are the 2 units a protoss will almost always open with against Terran) would easily take down your wall and you'd be left trying to defend with 1 rax pumping 1 marine at a time.
Can you get into diamond? Yeah almost definitely. Not because it's an effective strategy, but because the game is in beta, everyone is so terrible at it that if you have even the most basic understanding of tech trees and game-mechanics you can get to diamond running pretty much any strategy. It's like the thing Day[9] was talking about doing on the ladder trying to get to diamond only building stalkers. You could do it in 1 day easily. That doesn't mean it's a good strategy, everyone is just that awful at the game. Any decent player scouts you and builds some immortals/speedlings/tanks and your stalkers will be demolished easily, but 90% of the player base can't even scout well enough to counter a build.
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Replays please.
Just saying it doesn't make it so.
Preferably replays from a few games, not just one lucky one.
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i just played this in a diamond TvT, and it lost eventually to mauraders. i did it just like you said, depot rax depot OC, wait till 750, then pop 5 raxes. i think getting a tech lab quickly on one of your raxes and getting either combat shield or stim would make this better. i'm gonna keep playing with it, something new to try till beta ends
okay, tried it again, lost to zerg 1 base roaches... any one interest in these replays?
won to another 1 base zerg, he just didn't have all that much. i think the key is getting stim and combat shield early. i'm gonna drop a gas at the normal time and see how that works, maybe drop a barracks
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On July 19 2010 08:33 altairian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 08:12 ilbh wrote:
there is no way someone could reach n.1 diamond with this strat.
against zergs: banelings or roaches will destroy him
against terran: few marines +1 medivac will kill him
it may only work against protoss if not scouted... It's so so easy to do a build like this and prevent it from being scouted. How often does protoss fast stalker to 4 gate without it being scouted? Pretty much every 4 gate that's ever been done. It's the exact same concept, and even easier since terran can wall off and use 1 marine to get rid of workers and overlords. I got hit by something like this build once and it is pretty scary for sure. I should have had a sentry to wall off and I probably would've stayed alive for a while, but mass marine can be hard to kill without higher tech, and the whole point of this build is to deny you the time to tech. Stop being so hard on the OP, you really don't need a replay to see that this can work. And you don't have to point out that it can be beaten. Everything can be beaten.
I'm not being too harsh to the OP, its just that its impossible for this to work against T or Z. it may work against P, but against Z or T I don't see it happening... really.
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okay here are the replays of the games i've played so far. this is in diamond league, and i'm not a terran player (though i played random for a while). so far, getting combat shield and stim early makes a HUGE difference. i might even try to get an ebay and wait for +1 as well. surprisingly this has been working vs zerg, thankfully they haven't been able to scout it or i'm sure i'd lose quickly to banelings.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=132919
^ game 1, vs terran, lost to mauraders
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=132920
^ game 2, vs zerg, lost to 1 base roach
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=132921
^ game 3, vs zerg, won to 1 base roach and i think some hydras
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=132923
^ game 4, vs zerg, won to 1 base roach
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=132926
^ game 5, vs zerg, he was attempting muta/ling i think, got eaten up though. what's interesting is he scouted early enough that he should've known it was mass marines, and then had no banelings by the time i got to his base.
the key is definitely the marine upgrades, but not getting scouted is even more important. if someone knew this was coming, i dont think it would be that hard to respond.
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Hey, welcome to beginning build construction. To me, the most fun part about Starcraft is finding something that works, having it get broken, and then gradually turning it into a build that's actually viable. From watching your games and reading your posts, it seems like you're realizing the importance of upgrades in addition to your army size. Maybe you'll be able to create a marine push with upgrades that works off a more reasonable number of barracks than 6 and keeps your minerals low. It could possibly even avoid being all in.
I wouldn't count on your zerg opponents not making banelings, though. That's quite a lucky break for you that they never come.
And also, just a thought about the TvT... he was planning a 3 rax marauder attack, and it beat your 6 rax marine attack. Maybe you should consider doing the 3 rax marauder thing, since it is clearly stronger than your 6 rax marine attempt. Keep at it.
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Ok so this is what I think is the problem with this strat vs zerg. You build just 1 rax and 1 marine to hold off scouts and overlords till you have 750 minerals or whatever. This means you wall off with depot rax depot.
That means you are asking for a baneling bust. And banelings are going to destroy your marines. And don't forget most competent zerg will sac an overlord to see what you are up to, if they only see 1 marine in front and a standard wall in.
I don't see this working vs zerg, especially not "#1 in Diamond" zergs, if you catch my meaning.
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Hey guys, I'm back. Some of you are pretty harsh :D
You'd be suprised how fast 750 min rolls around. Push begins with a hoard before tech (tanks, lossis) arrive. I've been baneling rushed and had enough at the top of ramp to deny. Give it a try haters, it's funny fast!
Sure the build could be different with gas and labs for all the goodies, but it REALLY slows this down. Tanks get up and you're done. I'll look into posting replays.
I posted the "#1 in Diamond" for a hook. It's true, and I did earn it, but I ain't no leet yet XD
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i win alot with early rine pushes, its most effective TvT.
this is basically the build i run, minus the wierd nothiing till 5 raxes at once and no addons.
what is wrong with getting a reactor other than it takes forever to build? i usually pump off 2 raxes while i techlab one, then reactor 1 or both of the others depending what im scouting, while droppping a 4th rax. TvT go mass rines and beat the tanks, if u scout 1/1/1 go in early, vP youll have to adjust, stalkers get rauders, immos get rines, zs and sentries get both 2:1 - 3:1 rine:rauder
vZ youll probly just want to go mass rauder and nail him before mutas, definately make sure you scout for the mutas, as soon as you see them pump rines off your 1 reactor rax, lifft ano and drop in for a reactor, pump rines off the techlab ones, hopefully u have turrets already. generally youll frontdoor him just after he FEs.
obv all this transitions well into medis/vikes, tanks tvt is a bit of a problem since ur way behind if u dont crush him before he gets a sieged tank up. alot of the time vP who doesnt suck your gona need to hit him a 2nd time with 4-6 medis and a 2:1 composition of whatever you need to counter his pump.
this is all speaking from a high platinum perspective, not sure what goes on in diamond league, havent been there yet.
edit: oh and i try to get as many grades as i can on my bio before i go in, thats what the techlab is for even on a rine only build. and obv you will need engy bay, i start with armor even tho apparently everyone else thinks they need attack. usually go on +1 armor, combat shields/concussive (build dependent) and stim if i have time. the shields are clutch.
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EPT
