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On April 15 2010 23:18 Prozen wrote:
Like I said, the build definitely helps to protect against Immortals. The problem is you HAVE to be sure he's going Immortals instead of a 4-5 gate push. If you see those amount of gates, you have to immediately tech up.
@ DeMuslim: I was thinking, if Toss tries to take a 3rd expansion before you take yours, wouldn't there be a timing window for you to use? I don't think the Terran should push out until he has a good bioball + EMP + a few Vikings. I used the build before and I was able to exploit a Timing window when my opponent tried to take his 3rd.
Edit: And iirc, Azz said that with that build the Immortal push comes approximately a minute (? not sure) after the Terran takes his expansion so you should scan at around that point to see if the Protoss went Immortals and if he didn't, you tech up IMMEDIATELY.
I'm glad to see that people have finally looked at the build I was referring to about 5~6 pages ago ._.
We have to discuss what to transition to though, that's what's important. The Protoss will most likely go Collosi so Vikings are a must and absolutely the Terran must get EMP. I think it was mentioned before, but it's really important for the Terran to not just waste his energy on his Orbital commands for MULEs but also to use them occasionally for scans. Sure it may cost you 270 minerals, but I definitely would like to have the information about my opponent's unit composition so I know exactly what to go. Sometimes, just sending an SCV is not enough as it doesn't survive long enough to see your opponent's tech.
good post. glad to see someone is actually approaching this matchup sensibly instead of "i cant just spam mules and go one build, get an economic advantage, and win"
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On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2?
No race has a safe build that can stop all variations of opponents unit comp.... and calling a timing push cheese?
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On April 16 2010 00:37 Boardin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2? No race has a safe build that can stop all variations of opponents unit comp.... and calling a timing push cheese?
and thats comming from somebody who uses race which opens 1gate robo in 95% of games
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sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard
sc1:
2gate robo > 2fac
2fac > 1gate nexus
1gate nexus > siege fe
siege fe > 2gate robo
it was possible to scout each other and it was possible to comeback from a disadvantage. hell anything was possible in sc1 thats how it was so brilliant. in sc2 u cant do shit in theory and if u disagree i guess u just didnt play enough games or analyse enough to find this out :<
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Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious.
"Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming."
Seriously?
On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard
What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol.
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On April 16 2010 00:42 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:37 Boardin wrote:On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2? No race has a safe build that can stop all variations of opponents unit comp.... and calling a timing push cheese? and thats comming from somebody who uses race which opens 1gate robo in 95% of games
yes, most toss go one gate robo because terran weren't adjusting to compensate. hopefully now they will be. I constantly try new builds with my friends... its the nature of a ladder for people to exploit the strats that are tough to beat at the moment. Same way 95 percent of T went fast reaper and/or marauder last patch.
I understand its tough to compensate for patch changes especially when people tend to play follow the leader with builds. My point is that 1 gate robo into timing push is not "unbeatable" inf act if you defend it, your way ahead. You might say that if toss knows how your defending he can adapt and punish you..... I dont see this as an issue. You can stay scouting until he gets a stalker up. He should have started his robo by then and you know that hes getting it. Scan once more about 1:30 later and you'll know how many gates/if immortal is producing. I never get scanned by terrans nearly as much as in SC1, adding some in should make sure you have the appropriate counter to his strategy, not to mention your 4 rax FE puts a ton of pressure on the toss to do big dmg
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On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol.
you dont get it but thats fine
how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments?
im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players
and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
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On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
Questioning superior players? LOL. We are trying to provide input into the situation. Just because you are a good player doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned at this point in the beta. Great mechanics/knowledge of a 2-3 builds versus each race will take you very far in nearly every tourney. It's not like every superior player is an expert in metagame/strategy and should not be questioned. Especially with a game still so immature from a strategy standpoint
If you want to only talk to the top 10 players then this probably isn't the place
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Guys, I honestly think we're approaching the matchup with the wrong attitude. I think that most of us have just tried some builds and when it didn't work, we gave up. I may be first in my measly Platinum Division 43 and have lost to plenty of 1 base Immortal pushes, and at first I gave up. I dismissed the matchup, but then I felt that that was leading to nowhere. So I decided to watch my replays and analyze what I can do. Keep in mind that we can learn from our losses, we have to realize that in order to learn how to adapt to the Toss, we have to have a positive attitude and have discussions about the best possible options.
@ DeMuslim, I really appreciate that you have at least tried the build out as opposed to some Terrans in here who have dismissed it completely. But I feel that after you lost, you just gave up completely, that's the notion it appears.
All of us need to try to work together, have a positive attitude, and try to figure out what to do against the things Protoss can do against us. Have we honestly tried everything? I don't think the game is that imbalanced that we can't do anything to win. For now, I'm asking once again: let's discuss the followups to the 4 rax FE build because that seems to be the only sensible build to go against the 1 base Immortal push build. We shouldn't be bickering about how the build can't be standard. (For God's sake, this is the Beta, not the full game yet.)
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this.
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On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
That sounds like the Bush White-house answering questions on Iraq. What a convoluted pile of BS. Enjoy the pity-party way up there in your ivory tower.
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On April 15 2010 08:21 Skyze wrote:
if they nerf anything in this matchup, it should be banshees.. Holy shit they do insane damage vs everything protoss has. Basically only counter is phoenix, which vikings take out easy. Who cares if your immortal army can take out their little tank/marine army (which immortals are made to counter btw), when 10 banshees are pounding your stalkers down like carriers vs marines.
Phoenixes actually beat out vikings because they are much faster than them, and vikings don't get the damage bonus on them, and Phoenixes have more HP.
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On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
just ignore them, theres no point to argue with angry silver league protoss players lol
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On April 16 2010 00:59 Prozen wrote:
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this.
Pretty sure that our best (potential) contributors here are too concerned with prize money to share any meaningful amount of replays.
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On April 16 2010 01:02 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself just ignore them, theres no point to argue with angry silver league protoss players lol
nice ad hominem attack but i'm plat. thanks
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On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2?
Why? Because neither does anyone else! This isn't SCBW. Terran isn't the same camptastic force it was in SCBW. You can actively kick some serious ass in the field now, and chase down and kill escaping units with things like the Reaper, Hellion and Marauder, so of course you can't just sit back, build tanks and expand wherever the hell you want. If you have that field mobility, and ease of pressure, you get Patch 8, where Terrans are battering down Protoss inside their own base for 2 minutes flat with Marauders and expanding, so the Protoss has to take a HUGE risk and either try and all-in or try expanding to keep up and simply pray they can keep up a sufficient wall of units for the next time the Marauders come back.
Now, without being able to smash Protoss into a pulp in the first 5 minutes, you find you can't just bunker down and do whatever you want? Simply shocking. Welcome to the other 2 races.
There is no 100% safe build for Protoss and Zerg, so why should Terrans have one?
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On April 16 2010 01:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:59 Prozen wrote:
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this. Pretty sure that our best (potential) contributors here are too concerned with prize money to share any meaningful amount of replays.
Pretty sure you're a troll.
I've been experimenting with 2 factory style play which seems to do pretty well, or at least not get steamrolled. The problem I have is that you still have such a difficult time taking your expo and you're pretty much playing catchup the whole game. Also immortals produce like 40% faster than tanks or something stupid like that, so he'll always have more immortals than you have tanks and that's a losing game.
And yes, I get EMP quite fast with the build, so don't say "you need to learn to emp."
I'll keep trying it and perhaps I can find a way to use hellions to keep them in their base while I expand, or use them to draw their force away from containing me while I expand. I still think it's a losing game though because I'm already cutting scvs just to maintain my 1 base production to not die.
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On April 16 2010 01:10 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 01:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 16 2010 00:59 Prozen wrote:
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this. Pretty sure that our best (potential) contributors here are too concerned with prize money to share any meaningful amount of replays. Pretty sure you're a troll. I've been experimenting with 2 factory style play which seems to do pretty well, or at least not get steamrolled. The problem I have is that you still have such a difficult time taking your expo and you're pretty much playing catchup the whole game. Also immortals produce like 40% faster than tanks or something stupid like that, so he'll always have more immortals than you have tanks and that's a losing game. And yes, I get EMP quite fast with the build, so don't say "you need to learn to emp." I'll keep trying it and perhaps I can find a way to use hellions to keep them in their base while I expand, or use them to draw their force away from containing me while I expand. I still think it's a losing game though because I'm already cutting scvs just to maintain my 1 base production to not die.
Troll? Prozen and I have been asking for people to post more replays since, page.. 12? And we have almost nothing new here but the same back and forth plus three Morrow games where he clearly didn't use the suggested build.
Post some replays and stop accusing every critic that they're trolling.
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On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard
sc1:
2gate robo > 2fac
2fac > 1gate nexus
1gate nexus > siege fe
siege fe > 2gate robo
it was possible to scout each other and it was possible to comeback from a disadvantage. hell anything was possible in sc1 thats how it was so brilliant. in sc2 u cant do shit in theory and if u disagree i guess u just didnt play enough games or analyse enough to find this out :<
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such.
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On April 16 2010 00:56 Boardin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself Questioning superior players? LOL. We are trying to provide input into the situation. Just because you are a good player doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned at this point in the beta. Great mechanics/knowledge of a 2-3 builds versus each race will take you very far in nearly every tourney. It's not like every superior player is an expert in metagame/strategy and should not be questioned. Especially with a game still so immature from a strategy standpoint If you want to only talk to the top 10 players then this probably isn't the place
i dont come here to learn and i dont come here to argue
i come here to say whats really up and its up to u to trust me or not
hopefully ull trust and learn it urself and by then we - as a community can start these threads where everyone agrees on the issues so blizzard can patch things up faster
im pretty sure demuslim doesnt come here to ask for ur advise or if hes missing something. hes best european terran along with lucifron for crying out loud. if we wanna learn we discuss and learn we talk to each other over bnet. we make the posts here along with many other good players so we can get the word rolling so blizzard can fix stuff.
demuslim are just making the builds u write here so he can come back and say it didnt work, he already knew it didnt work and im pretty sure he already tried everything. he wont learn from u silver, wait platinum sorry, who tell him what to do. if that would be the case he wouldnt be able to win tournaments like he is
i think its pretty foolish to be bming or making fun of high level players who come here and "whine" when infact its ppl like us who help to spread the world and then blizzard reads and patches up.
im not trying to make my race better so i can win tournaments and get money. if i wanted that id just start play zerg since the 1st week. i want sc2 to become balanced and challanging, i dont wanna have an excuse for losing i just wanna be able to say "i lost because of me". could do that in sc1 and it was motivating to keep practice, now many arent practicing alot because they say to themself after a game "i lost because of imba and luck". its not very fun to play sc2 atm and all im trying to do here is speed up the phase beta stage goes so i can start blaming myself rather than the game when i lose like i could with sc1
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On April 16 2010 01:26 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:56 Boardin wrote:On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself Questioning superior players? LOL. We are trying to provide input into the situation. Just because you are a good player doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned at this point in the beta. Great mechanics/knowledge of a 2-3 builds versus each race will take you very far in nearly every tourney. It's not like every superior player is an expert in metagame/strategy and should not be questioned. Especially with a game still so immature from a strategy standpoint If you want to only talk to the top 10 players then this probably isn't the place i dont come here to learn and i dont come here to argue i come here to say whats really up and its up to u to trust me or not hopefully ull trust and learn it urself and by then we - as a community can start these threads where everyone agrees on the issues so blizzard can patch things up faster im pretty sure demuslim doesnt come here to ask for ur advise or if hes missing something. hes best european terran along with lucifron for crying out loud. if we wanna learn we discuss and learn we talk to each other over bnet. we make the posts here along with many other good players so we can get the word rolling so blizzard can fix stuff. demuslim are just making the builds u write here so he can come back and say it didnt work, he already knew it didnt work and im pretty sure he already tried everything. he wont learn from u silver, wait platinum sorry, who tell him what to do. if that would be the case he wouldnt be able to win tournaments like he is i think its pretty foolish to be bming or making fun of high level players who come here and "whine" when infact its ppl like us who help to spread the world and then blizzard reads and patches up. im not trying to make my race better so i can win tournaments and get money. if i wanted that id just start play zerg since the 1st week. i want sc2 to become balanced and challanging, i dont wanna have an excuse for losing i just wanna be able to say "i lost because of me". could do that in sc1 and it was motivating to keep practice, now many arent practicing alot because they say to themself after a game "i lost because of imba and luck". its not very fun to play sc2 atm and all im trying to do here is speed up the phase beta stage goes so i can start blaming myself rather than the game when i lose like i could with sc1
i do trust that in your experience 1 gate robo is extermely strong and dominates a lot of terran builds. I know demuslim is a great player, i wont argue that, far better than me... but he, like everyone else. Is missing something
You said your not here to learn.. thats pretty foolish IMO... always more to learn
I understand that there are aspects of the game that need fixing, that certain matchups haveterran basically coinflipping between two builds guessing what P is doing. Blizz may come in and nerf the shit out of somethign P is doing.... I wouldn't complain as I trust their decisions. But for now people complaining that there is no safe build is not an issue. The inability to adapt and perfect builts to transition with what P is doing is something that would be alarming. But at this point I find it hard to believe that Terran have exhausted all options.. there just hasn't been enough time for all the "good players" to perfect builds....
I think back to the timing push that was so popular from Terran in SC1. It took a long time for P to leearn that he had to put goons outside his base and try to pick off units to delay the Terran push to stop it. Things like that take a long long time to figure out... and this patch has barely been out what? 2 weeks?
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