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On April 16 2010 01:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such.
pls do not compare sc2 to scbw in terms of strats / metagame development, 1 week in sc2 is like 1 year in scbw, nobody knew how to play RTS games back then, now everyone is REALLY good and actually trying to learn the game properly. Also if all of the top players in europe, strelok / morrow demuslim are saying that tvp is broken and no matter what they do ( im sure they all play A LOT more than you and have tried every possible combination of builds / units that they could think of before posting here ) then you shouldn't argue with them and make retarded arguments because you are losing to terrans in your silver league. The fact is that at the highest levels on every server, P is crushing T at the moment, and there is nothing T can do about it until the game gets patched. Anyone who cries and says "OMG EMP IS IMBALANCED" needs to stfu and realize that they are only losing because they are bad ;(
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We're talking about earlygame where the options are very limited and distinct. There are very few permutations at this point and eventually you're going to exhaust them all. To make the game balanced more than 1 permutation has to be viable. Every build has a weakness and if only 1 build is viable then it's not viable because people will continually exploit its weaknesses. Right now we've found one build which seems to be ok, which is this 4 rax FE. However, until we find another build that actually does quite well vs a variety of threats 4 rax FE isn't viable because everyone will just open to counter it as soon as it's spotted. It's not a build you can hide so there's no way to keep protoss in the dark.
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Time to be patronizing:
Hey protoss wanna know how to stop 6 proxy rax 6 refinery 7 bunker rush?
TECH TO VOID RAYS LOL (remember when you told me all I needed to do to stop a gateway rush w/ immos was tech to fast banshees?)
Mod edit - time to be temp banned, too.
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Why not try hitting the Protoss with some quick bio and a bunker? If they're getting a Robo Fac out THAT quick, they're going to have absolutely jack diddly to defend themselves with. Saw that in one of those Korean games someone posted of a TvP on Scrap Station (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one). Seemed unorthodox, but just occurred to me that might be the counter that the dude came up with.
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On April 16 2010 02:03 Bibdy wrote:
Why not try hitting the Protoss with some quick bio and a bunker? If they're getting a Robo Fac out THAT quick, they're going to have absolutely jack diddly to defend themselves with. Saw that in one of those Korean games someone posted of a TvP on Scrap Station (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one). Seemed unorthodox, but just occurred to me that might be the counter that the dude came up with.
i dont think this is very viable. I dont feel vulnerable at all when i go fast robo. I think for T to exploit this in the manner you say they would have to all-inthemselves by cutting scv's and/or proxy
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On April 16 2010 02:03 Bibdy wrote:
Why not try hitting the Protoss with some quick bio and a bunker? If they're getting a Robo Fac out THAT quick, they're going to have absolutely jack diddly to defend themselves with. Saw that in one of those Korean games someone posted of a TvP on Scrap Station (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one). Seemed unorthodox, but just occurred to me that might be the counter that the dude came up with.
If by bio you mean marine/marauder, sadly that won't work. Whereas zealots & stalkers are good against terran early-game, marines & marauders are NOT good against toss early game. They need upgrades to be effective, unlike zealot/sentry/stalker which are all good out of the box without any upgrades, this is especially true of sentries. (obviously they are better when they do get upgrades, but my point is M&M are not that good without upgrades). I don't see it working, although I suppose a bunker could help, I'm not discouting it completely but it doesn't seem very feasible.
The only barracks unit that is good without any upgrades is reaper, and toss can CB a stalker without changing their 1gate robo build hardly at all, meaning if terran wants to do damage with reapers they need to choose a build at the beginning of the game that is specifically tailored for getting fast reapers, usually 8rax proxy reapers or 10 rax proxy reapers.
Any type of 1base bio build requires you to remain in base until upgrades are finished, or else you will die. And once upgrades are finished, immortals are on the field, forcing you to remain in-base for even longer while you get ghosts. Zealots are too strong v marauders without slow, and sentries are too strong against marines without mass numbers or shields.
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On April 16 2010 00:48 Boardin wrote:
You can stay scouting until he gets a stalker up. He should have started his robo by then and you know that hes getting it. Scan once more about 1:30 later and you'll know how many gates/if immortal is producing.
It is also impossible for the Protoss to hide their tech? Easiest counter in the world to waste a scan IMO. Sure you risk a bit, but do you honestly believe a scan covers all the area of a starting location or even the expo as well?
There is only one use of Chrono Boost atm, but what would happen to Protoss if they "had to" use it for defense / scouting? Once Warp Gate kicks in the Protoss can replenish their cannon fodder really fast while Terrans have to stick with what they have. In a war of attrition Terrans have lost.
As an outsider I would like to have the players who say "youre not trying hard enough" or "you should do it differently" to make precise suggestions as to what the struggling players need to change. DeMuslim didnt come here to whine about it, but to ask for help / ideas and telling him "you dont try hard enough" isnt helping.
SC2 seems highly (maybe too much?) dependant upon the map IMO, so that information needs to be figured in as well.
- backdoor maps are different from one-entrance maps
- maps with islands offer different strategies than those without them
- bases with loong cliffs are more vulnerable against Stalker-blink plus Colossus attacks
- ...
Maybe trying to identify the worst maps for the matchup might help pinpointing the problem more and giving a solution?
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yes you are right, if p is going dts/voidray (which arent even allin) they can hide them where terran isnt going to scan easily, also there isn't a huge change in terran's unit composition depending on what p is going, people are saying "GET GHOST" if p goes immortal, but all they have to do if you go ghost is sit on top of their ramp and spread out their units and tech to colossus, then your starport will be SEVERELY delayed because of the gas cost of ghost + mm upgrades =X
if the p is smart, everything the T does is easily beaten lol
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On April 16 2010 02:37 Rabiator wrote:
As an outsider I would like to have the players who say "youre not trying hard enough" or "you should do it differently" to make precise suggestions as to what the struggling players need to change. DeMuslim didnt come here to whine about it, but to ask for help / ideas and telling him "you dont try hard enough" isnt helping.
Except I don't think anyone is expressedly stating "you aren't trying," but we really have no way of knowing exactly what is being utilized with the complete absence of replays as evidence.
We would tell any run-of-the-mill copper leaguer "post your replays," if he was pointing out how X or Y strat was impossible as Z race. Why are we content to just sit back and play the forum debate game on this instead of posting replays and getting tangible evidence for further discussion?
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On April 16 2010 01:47 duckhunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 01:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such. pls do not compare sc2 to scbw in terms of strats / metagame development, 1 week in sc2 is like 1 year in scbw, nobody knew how to play RTS games back then, now everyone is REALLY good and actually trying to learn the game properly. Also if all of the top players in europe, strelok / morrow demuslim are saying that tvp is broken and no matter what they do ( im sure they all play A LOT more than you and have tried every possible combination of builds / units that they could think of before posting here ) then you shouldn't argue with them and make retarded arguments because you are losing to terrans in your silver league. The fact is that at the highest levels on every server, P is crushing T at the moment, and there is nothing T can do about it until the game gets patched. Anyone who cries and says "OMG EMP IS IMBALANCED" needs to stfu and realize that they are only losing because they are bad ;(
Anyone collected these stats, is there a link to see how in platinum or high platinum P beats T consistently ? Or sum up all the post patch 8 tournaments ?
After all these pages i have to agree this matchup could be better balanced, but i'm not sure what needs to be changed. Slower immortal building time, higher energy cost for ff and gs, reduce banshee range, reduce immortal damage to buildings or make available an upgrade for it ?
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A top plat player here. A build I made that seems to have potential that I have been having mixed success with (as I've only played it like thrice so i need to get it down exactly) is...
(obviously much tweaking is needed)
2 rax(one tech lab) 2 fact UNSIEGED tanks/marines
tanks remain unsieged.
I think 2 rax should be enough for constant marine production for a while, adding another rax (or reactor) later on when you're more saturated. One rax should have a tech lab. Marine upgrade is suggested. You might need a bunker in the beginning if hes aggressive. And I usually don't open reaper in this case to save gas.
The gist is to keep the marines in front with the tanks in back. Tanks have further range than all other units. With focus fire and tank micro take down the immos quick, and then teh stalkers will be easily destroyed. Or maybe kill all the stalkers super fast first? haven't had enough time to test.
I can say this build easily defends the first immo push though. I think if i microd and macrod a bit better I'd have more than 50% wins with this build.
Oh and i usually end up getting a starport and raven fairly quick since i almost expect dts every game now.
The reason this seems to work is that unsieged tanks have the highest range/dps of all the ground units, with a fast attack that is even nifty against immortals. IF the toss doesn't specifially target your tanks, hes screwed. If he does you can micro them. I usually attack after 4 tanks or so, but you can easily safely expand.
Please more people test this build, as I have limited time to play, and get back to me. Thanks, and good luck!
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I tested it a few times. Failed hardcore. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I'm a perfect player so probably not.
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On April 16 2010 03:08 JTPROG wrote:
A top plat player here. A build I made that seems to have potential that I have been having mixed success with (as I've only played it like thrice so i need to get it down exactly) is...
(obviously much tweaking is needed)
2 rax(one tech lab) 2 fact UNSIEGED tanks/marines
tanks remain unsieged.
I think 2 rax should be enough for constant marine production for a while, adding another rax (or reactor) later on when you're more saturated. One rax should have a tech lab. Marine upgrade is suggested. You might need a bunker in the beginning if hes aggressive. And I usually don't open reaper in this case to save gas.
The gist is to keep the marines in front with the tanks in back. Tanks have further range than all other units. With focus fire and tank micro take down the immos quick, and then teh stalkers will be easily destroyed. Or maybe kill all the stalkers super fast first? haven't had enough time to test.
I can say this build easily defends the first immo push though. I think if i microd and macrod a bit better I'd have more than 50% wins with this build.
Oh and i usually end up getting a starport and raven fairly quick since i almost expect dts every game now.
The reason this seems to work is that unsieged tanks have the highest range/dps of all the ground units, with a fast attack that is even nifty against immortals. IF the toss doesn't specifially target your tanks, hes screwed. If he does you can micro them. I usually attack after 4 tanks or so, but you can easily safely expand.
Please more people test this build, as I have limited time to play, and get back to me. Thanks, and good luck!
This is similar to a build I've tried before, but I always got stomped by zealots/immortals/sentries. Guardian shield makes marines do half what they should in damage. Zealots absorb tank hits quite well. Force Field keeps you from microing backwards and just in general messes up your formations. Immortals can charge forward and slaughter your tanks because if you're not shooting the zealots all your marines will die quite quickly.
Levin did this to me in craftcup, actually with fast chargelots and I don't even think any sentries and I got creamed, so adding in sentries will make this style ineffective. The fact is, without EMP, immortals are just too good.
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On April 16 2010 03:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 03:08 JTPROG wrote:
A top plat player here. A build I made that seems to have potential that I have been having mixed success with (as I've only played it like thrice so i need to get it down exactly) is...
(obviously much tweaking is needed)
2 rax(one tech lab) 2 fact UNSIEGED tanks/marines
tanks remain unsieged.
I think 2 rax should be enough for constant marine production for a while, adding another rax (or reactor) later on when you're more saturated. One rax should have a tech lab. Marine upgrade is suggested. You might need a bunker in the beginning if hes aggressive. And I usually don't open reaper in this case to save gas.
The gist is to keep the marines in front with the tanks in back. Tanks have further range than all other units. With focus fire and tank micro take down the immos quick, and then teh stalkers will be easily destroyed. Or maybe kill all the stalkers super fast first? haven't had enough time to test.
I can say this build easily defends the first immo push though. I think if i microd and macrod a bit better I'd have more than 50% wins with this build.
Oh and i usually end up getting a starport and raven fairly quick since i almost expect dts every game now.
The reason this seems to work is that unsieged tanks have the highest range/dps of all the ground units, with a fast attack that is even nifty against immortals. IF the toss doesn't specifially target your tanks, hes screwed. If he does you can micro them. I usually attack after 4 tanks or so, but you can easily safely expand.
Please more people test this build, as I have limited time to play, and get back to me. Thanks, and good luck! This is similar to a build I've tried before, but I always got stomped by zealots/immortals/sentries. Guardian shield makes marines do half what they should in damage. Zealots absorb tank hits quite well. Force Field keeps you from microing backwards and just in general messes up your formations. Immortals can charge forward and slaughter your tanks because if you're not shooting the zealots all your marines will die quite quickly. Levin did this to me in craftcup, actually with fast chargelots and I don't even think any sentries and I got creamed, so adding in sentries will make this style ineffective. The fact is, without EMP, immortals are just too good.
I still think the main problem is sentries, not immortals... sentries need to be nerfed pretty hard imo.
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Sentries break PvZ right now as well. I happen to agree with you on that.
Regardless, in the current state of the game I just don't think it's that viable. You NEED hellions to kill zealots. However, I think perhaps 1 fact hellions 1 fact tanks 2 rax marines might work, with hellion upgrade and marine shield. Ironically this is pretty much how I've been playing my 2 facts which as I've said are actually not that bad. I think perhaps I should try not going reactor on my 2nd fact and making a 2nd rax for more marines instead.
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On April 16 2010 03:18 Floophead_III wrote:
Sentries break PvZ right now as well. I happen to agree with you on that.
Regardless, in the current state of the game I just don't think it's that viable. You NEED hellions to kill zealots. However, I think perhaps 1 fact hellions 1 fact tanks 2 rax marines might work, with hellion upgrade and marine shield. Ironically this is pretty much how I've been playing my 2 facts which as I've said are actually not that bad. I think perhaps I should try not going reactor on my 2nd fact and making a 2nd rax for more marines instead.
well I think you can just modify the tank build to start producing hellions if you see him getting zlots, no? Might as well try the tank build first until scouting information says otherwise.
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I think people are missing the point of this thread. This is for Terran players, and some Protoss to create a viable strategy that isn't cheesy. We aren't asking for a quick win button. We don't care that straight marauders is not easy mode anymore because it was boring and stale to begin with.
Protoss players, please don't come in here and tell us to get EVERYTHING. We know we have to adapt and scout. We just don't know how to adapt. There are strats that just give you a pure advantage. For instance, the first time I encounted an Immortal Push+zealots I died pretty hard even with marines. The next time I prepared an EMP, but he only had 1 Immortal and many more stalkers. The last time I encountered Immortals, the player chose not to push at all and just expanded. After destroying all of my pushes, he obliterated me with a few colossus, immortals, and stalker blink. Now I definitely could've played better, but now do you see the dynamic of early robo fac?
I didn't come in here to prove that point though. I actually tried the marine/tank/banshee build on Metalopolis. I was at 9 and he was at 7. It went something like this. RAX>FACTORY>MARINES+RAX+STARPORT>MARINES+SP TECHLAB>BANSHEE>RAX RC>BANSHEE+BANSHEE HARASS>FAC TECHLAB>SIEGE
I think I had shield ups before stim, not too sure. I won the game right as I was transitioning to Marauder/ghost.
The guy went 3gate/robo and also tried to be cheeky by throwing a few DTs in the mix. Also choosing to expand while thinking he had me contained. Not the best player. The banshee harass forced him to go stalkers, and when I couldn't harass anymore I just used them for scouting and sent em back to my main force. Then I pushed out with 16marines/2-3tanks setting tanks ahead of his main force(8stalkers+random zlots) but in range of his base from the side of his cliff. Marines buffered. It made quick work of the stalkers and a colossus that just came out. The banshees spotted for me while I was raining fire on his base.
The Pros of this build was that:
1. Forces opponents to build a few stalkers
2. Opponent didn't know a tank push was coming. I had a neglible amound of tanks and only one fac, but many more barracks. Probably thought marine/marauder was coming.
3. Unlike other Terran options, less vulnerable to feedback.
Cons:
1. Weak against storm
I found it to be a stable build, but very inconclusive. The opponent wasn't good and the timing was terrible. I didn't encounter Immortals and even with that many marines they could possibly snipe my tanks. I did encounter HT but he didn't have storm ready. For this build to work I think it requires a transition to marauders/ghosts or at least ghosts with emp after the first push. I will try unsieged tanks later.
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@Floop/JT
So I've been playing around with the FE build a lot today. Found some interesting "key points".
Key point #1 it stops the immortal push fairly handedly!
Key point #2 most protoss can't scout for another 1-2 mins after this push fails.
Key point #3 most builds resulted in an opted expansion or colossi play
Key point #4 At the moment the push fails is the time to tech or to "finish" teching. I threw down a factory earlier rather than opting for a few marines and swapped to banshee tech immediately afterwords.
Why the tech swap was successful: The protoss at this point is massing immortals/zealots/sentries and a few stalkers to break any mnm ball you're buliding up. He sees what you have at your expo and mnm clicks in his head.
At this point you can easily punish him in 2 ways. You already have 4 rax down, tech to star ports and see what he has (can make ravens/medivacs for both choices). If you see a lot of ground punisher units continue banshee tech. If you see more stalker heavy it's a good idea to go MnM still.
As for the early non sieged tank I posted some replays earlier. It's a great idea in theory but in practice it falls short against several different types of protoss builds (e.g., immortal drops/warp gate timing pushes). I'm trying to develop some sort of "flash" build. Let me explain:
You get that really quick tank with no siege and with your rax you have a reactor constantly pumping marines. Here's where I'm trying to decide what to do differently: swap the factory with the rax and pump marauders/hellions. Hellions are great for harass especially early on you can really poke around his base and find out a lot of information. Or continue to just pump marines from your rax and a few tanks from the factory for later siege support.
Just some thoughts. I'll play around with these some more and get back to you.
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more info on the 4rax fe pls.
when do you start your cc ,when to cut scv/rines for cc or the rax,when to get gas?
or do you just spam rines from 1 rax till you got excessive minerals,start cc and then get gas and rax whenever possible?
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Mara hellion is going to be weak to immortal drops just like pure mara. Also I think immortal push is not the strategy you'd ever want to use vs that style of FE. You should be able to scout no early gas which means only marines.
I think that indicates NOT to go immortal push. Stalker, fast coli, dt, even just a fast mass warpgate + prism could be quite scary. I want to see how the build deals with all sorts of stuff before it becomes what I could consider viable. If anyone wants to test with me floophead.legendary on US server. Add me/msg me!
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EPT
