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On April 15 2010 11:26 DeMusliM wrote:
just tried this 4 rax fe thing against Socke twice (a german protoss if you don't know him already!)
and, i won the first game (he lost 3 stalkers trying to harrass my expo) meaning i didn't have to worry that much, then he directly headed to collosus/ht tech and i managed to win.
Though the 2nd game he didn't lose 3 stalkers, just expo'd and contained me with DT's while teching to HT/mass gateway units.
Although the strat seemed viable - if the protoss knows what he's doing it really does prove to be quite bad :S
Hey i been testing vs this 4 rax FE thing too with a few of the top plats
I am a bit inconclusive how this fares vs a 4 gate (or 5 gate? not sure whehter theres any benefit from the extra gate after 1 production cycle). Should 4 gate beat this build or is it even close?
Some terran did this build vs me yesterday but i responded by double expanding and he missed his timing window to punish it lol
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Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all.
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Isn't the 4 rax FE build a bit weak to good shield abuse from the protoss? If he has 3 immortals and run's in to kill a bunker (while under guardian shield) and then just retreats to restore shields and repeats you have problems I think. Rines have 5 range, 6 from a bunker so immortals with 5 range don't take too much damage running in. Without marauders and their slow it's just hard to punish toss hit and run tactics, especially with guardian shield.
Fast colossi as a response to no early gas from the terran also seems to be very tough to deal with and is a easy tech switch for the protoss.
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The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
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i wuv banshees, all the toss i play are campy little fucks that sit in their base untill they have colossus and everything they can possibly make and then come to crush my puny fucking BIO army
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On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
Replays?
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On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
+1
Totally Agree
I tried 4rax FE with Protoss in Asia Ladder and got owned with 4 5 Gate plus Colossus
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blink stalkers + collo (proxy the support bay) is pretty unbeatable. high marine count to stay safe against immortal push, and maps like metalopolis, LT you can attack from anywhere you want :O!
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On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
That's a different build.
Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build:
-the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack
-MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax.
-MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons.
faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack.
However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions
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Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays.
On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions
The Problem is, once you started the FE at around 19-21 Supply you can't know what he is going to do so a switch is hard since you a far behind without any gas at that point and there is no secure way of defending a FE without early gas (PF).
To your comparison of the builds:
Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference.
We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield.
Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever.
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Like I said, the build definitely helps to protect against Immortals. The problem is you HAVE to be sure he's going Immortals instead of a 4-5 gate push. If you see those amount of gates, you have to immediately tech up.
@ DeMuslim: I was thinking, if Toss tries to take a 3rd expansion before you take yours, wouldn't there be a timing window for you to use? I don't think the Terran should push out until he has a good bioball + EMP + a few Vikings. I used the build before and I was able to exploit a Timing window when my opponent tried to take his 3rd.
Edit: And iirc, Azz said that with that build the Immortal push comes approximately a minute (? not sure) after the Terran takes his expansion so you should scan at around that point to see if the Protoss went Immortals and if he didn't, you tech up IMMEDIATELY.
I'm glad to see that people have finally looked at the build I was referring to about 5~6 pages ago ._.
We have to discuss what to transition to though, that's what's important. The Protoss will most likely go Collosi so Vikings are a must and absolutely the Terran must get EMP. I think it was mentioned before, but it's really important for the Terran to not just waste his energy on his Orbital commands for MULEs but also to use them occasionally for scans. Sure it may cost you 270 minerals, but I definitely would like to have the information about my opponent's unit composition so I know exactly what to go. Sometimes, just sending an SCV is not enough as it doesn't survive long enough to see your opponent's tech.
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On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever.
How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
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On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever. How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all.
;/
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On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever. How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
Morrow is a better player then me, I mentiened the 3 games linked above..
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On April 15 2010 23:56 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever. How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see. Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all. ;/
On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
;/
go play it more people. One game isn't going to decide anything.
On April 16 2010 00:06 p1ng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:
How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
Morrow is a better player then me, I mentiened the 3 games linked above..
I just got finished establishing it was a different build...
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On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all.
Yah this was my feeling as well. It can't possibly be a standard opening if it's punishable by protoss when he knows you're doing it, which he will.
I look forward to seeing the next patch.
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Note: Will post the 2 replays when i get home.
I played against the same protoss 2x in a row today, won one and lost one (lost the first one)-
Game 1 i tried proxy 8 rax reaper rush. Worked OK, but i totally failed after that to play a good game and got beat by an immortal + colossi push. Game 2- i think he was expecting the same reaper proxy rush so i wall in and tech str8 for siege tanks + banshees. I think because of the first game i was able to get away with the fast tech without an early immortal push coming my way. Get a pretty decent banshee harass off, get my xpo going, and then i just mass banshee / viking / marine to take the game. I think i only won that becaue a lack of early agression on his part, though. He then complains that Banshees are OP 
EDIT:DO NOT ANSWER THIS For the record... what % of games does somone complain of OP units when you win? Im hovering around 30-40% lol.
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are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on
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On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on
Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2?
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EPT
