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On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 09:09 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote:
I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2. Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers: On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__- TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less". Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist. And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later. Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling. I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse. I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide.
ME 1
Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa"
First post:
"Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance"
Second-Nth post:
"I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah"
Tank post:
"Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?"
Response:
"Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!"
Tank post:
"He lost to _____ (noob player here)"
Response:
"Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges."
Tank post:
"MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player."
Response:
"Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months."
Tank post:
"Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
Look, for a second imagine that every zerg is jaedong, all terran are flash, and all protoss are bisu/stork.
Now watch all BW games with that in mind, then come back and tell me you wouldnt get a different view on the games because i am 100% sure you dont give flukey-never-good-before players the credit they're due for. The only example I can remember is how you think of stats (because I am a fanboy of him.) as "mediocore", because you dubbed him "mediocore", not because you watched the games he actually plays.
Try watching BW with those glasses before thinking about who the players are, and what their reputation is, because watch everygame as the only game theyve played is the best option for a good measure stick.
Dont act like people who use that arguement dont judge results also.....
Also, are you Superarc?
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On April 03 2011 14:57 vishrut wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 14:01 renzy wrote:On April 03 2011 12:57 VGhost wrote:On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote:
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well.
Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. Last month Bisu was an equally good example of this. I know we're all basking in the glory of beating Jaedong this time around, but you look at that 5-4 from last month... I mean yeah he beat Sea, but he lost to Leta's TvP and he's lost against every good PvPer he's faced. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but picking on Stork seems counter-productive for your own (very clear) fanboy-ness. Sure, the loss to BaBy wasn't real shiny, and sure Stork didn't beat anybody "good" (except Stats, which oh yeah Bisu didn't)... but exactly the same sort of qualifications apply to Bisu for March. And when you add it all up - who's better than these two, anyway? RorO? Amusing, but despite fanboyism I'll say no. Crazy-Hydra for the all-kill? Maybe... but who do you drop? Do we put Kal on? Calm? Yea..he lost to Leta's TvP, which was 2 fac vs 1 gate expand...YOU try beating, heck, even a D level terran like that. I am a big bisu fan but bisu has the amazing ability to choose the absolute wrong bo. In that game against leta he went 1 gate expand into obs. There is no build worse against a 2 fact. Most of his pvps he did have a slight to fairly bad bo disadvantage. He really needs to work on his unpredictability rather than his mechanics
I don't at all think you can blame BO issues for his PvP issues.
This loss trend started with the ace match against Kal. It's true that Kal expanded first but Bisu took a third faster and Kal wasn't able to find a timing window. The reason Bisu lost that game was due to inferior caster usage. I don't remember him even making any HT at all, except maybe at the very end, meanwhile Kal's storms were beautiful and Bisu's shuttle management during their large army center clashes was horrible, consistently allowing a single psi storm to nail both reavers and losing shuttles too easily.
With Stork... he's lost their last 5 encounters now.
His loss against Free was a total embarrassment where he allowed Free to take hidden expos TWICE without ever realizing they were there. I don't think he even knew about either one until after the game ended. And again, Free had superior caster usage.
His game against Stats his caster usage was again inferior and he allowed Stats to choose the locations of the battles and dictate the pace of the game.
And he finally broke the loss streak with a game against PerfectMan that he likely would have lost against a more competent opponent.
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On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote:
Now watch all BW games with that in mind, then come back and tell me you wouldnt get a different view on the games because i am 100% sure you dont give flukey-never-good-before players the credit they're due for. The only example I can remember is how you think of stats (because I am a fanboy of him.) as "mediocore", because you dubbed him "mediocore", not because you watched the games he actually plays.
Try watching BW with those glasses before thinking about who the players are, and what their reputation is, because watch everygame as the only game theyve played is the best option for a good measure stick.
Dont act like people who use that arguement dont judge results also.....
Also, are you Superarc?
I'm sorry, but I think this is as close as it gets to trolling, or maybe you just want to defend Stats right now for some reason. From the last line, I'd say it's trolling.
Maybe I described Stats as mediocre before, but right now the word I'd use to describe him is 'solid' if I were to speak without bias. No, I don't like him, nor do I think he's as good as KT fans say he is. But he is a good player that can get results.
Nevertheless, one good game among a sea of idiocy could mean either that the player will improve or that they will not. The top players have the distinction of consistently playing well.
Fine if you disagree with me, no need to be so hostile though.
On April 03 2011 15:49 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote:On April 03 2011 09:09 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote:
I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2. Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers: On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__- TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less". Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist. And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later. Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling. I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse. I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide.
ME 1
Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa"
First post:
"Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance"
Second-Nth post:
"I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah"
Tank post:
"Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?"
Response:
"Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!"
Tank post:
"He lost to _____ (noob player here)"
Response:
"Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges."
Tank post:
"MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player."
Response:
"Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months."
Tank post:
"Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense. I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do.
Hmph. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree; at this point I don't see you ever changing your mind. Though I have to say that while I usually agree with you for the most part, I think your logic seems to be off in this specific case.
Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
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Storks play in his loss to Flash was pretty kick ass... I mean, that showcased some of the most kick ass shuttle micro I have seen in a long time. I'm not a Toss guy, but even I got all frisky watching that lol
Also, in his loss to JD, I don't think he really did anything wrong, but was caught off guard by the second hydra push. Stork saw JD throw down the the fourth hatch, and even JD said he was preparing to go into macro mode. I mean, its up to u to decide if the play was bad, but he defended the initial bust, and anyone would assume a macro game after seeing the fourth hatch. Plus tho JD was pumping hydras, it was in no way all in hydras.
Don't really follow Khan all that much so didn't see all of Stork's games, but those 2 losses stood out
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On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote:
Also, are you Superarc?
I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor. (Even to the point of sometimes acknowledging the nature of his posting. Lightwip just argues indefatigably.)
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On April 03 2011 21:12 okum wrote:I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor.
Lightwip has a sense of humor as well. He gives us all a good laugh when things don't go his way.
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On April 03 2011 21:12 okum wrote:I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor.
But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest.
And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc.
Still, he could be..
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On April 03 2011 21:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 21:12 okum wrote:On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote:
Also, are you Superarc? I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor. But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest. And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc. Still, he could be..
Another difference is that Superarc didn't talk shit about whoever his favorit players were compared with. He was more of a positive fan while Lightwip is always attacking the players that Bisu is compared with, whether it is Stork or Stats or Jaedong.
I miss superarc 
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On April 03 2011 22:44 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 21:17 Iplaythings wrote:On April 03 2011 21:12 okum wrote:On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote:
Also, are you Superarc? I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor. But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest. And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc. Still, he could be.. Another difference is that Superarc didn't talk shit about whoever his favorit players were compared with. He was more of a positive fan while Lightwip is always attacking the players that Bisu is compared with, whether it is Stork or Stats or Jaedong. I miss superarc
taking it too far, he was so obnoxious..
But yeah, thats prolly right.
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On April 03 2011 23:19 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 22:44 Elroi wrote:On April 03 2011 21:17 Iplaythings wrote:On April 03 2011 21:12 okum wrote:On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote:
Also, are you Superarc? I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor. But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest. And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc. Still, he could be.. Another difference is that Superarc didn't talk shit about whoever his favorit players were compared with. He was more of a positive fan while Lightwip is always attacking the players that Bisu is compared with, whether it is Stork or Stats or Jaedong. I miss superarc taking it too far, he was so obnoxious.. But yeah, thats prolly right.
It is probably just that I loved the CJ of Effort and coach Cho as much as him.
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You know it's time to do some serious soul-searching when people start to compare you to SuperArc. 
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On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
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On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
Fox is like STX, potential never unleashed (Shine can play like a huge baller if he wants to.. So can Pure, roro, midas. Baby is just the only one who does it atm roro is getting there though).
FBH is getting some credit for demolishing his MST group and being an ACE player, his rating is maybe a tad high but Im happy to see him there
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On April 03 2011 17:26 Lightwip wrote:
Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
Did you see Stork vs Flash?
Stork fell behind early due to an early bunker rush and what I'm inclined to call map imba. Even so, he almost broke out of the contain, only not managing to do so due to a mine daebak. But even after getting contained he displayed tremendous force in taking control of the center, wiping out one of Flash's tank army, taking and protecting a side expo, all the while still not taking his natural.
It was an extremely fun game even if the eco difference proved too big in the end.
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On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
Stats = Roro imo.
I think it's time for Roro to make a deep starleague run, and maybe keep up the tradition of random zerg silver medalist.
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On April 04 2011 01:26 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 17:26 Lightwip wrote:
Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month? Did you see Stork vs Flash? Stork fell behind early due to an early bunker rush and what I'm inclined to call map imba. Even so, he almost broke out of the contain, only not managing to do so due to a mine daebak. But even after getting contained he displayed tremendous force in taking control of the center, wiping out one of Flash's tank army, taking and protecting a side expo, all the while still not taking his natural. It was an extremely fun game even if the eco difference proved too big in the end.
Also Stork vs Stats, Stork's Reaver/Shuttle micro was just AMAZING. When Stats tried storm his Reavers, Stork picked it up and then drop it somewhere else to not die. And plus have you see Stork vs Hero game? Stork successefully 1-based and beat Hero with some incredible Zealot/Dragoon micro against 1 full control group of Zerglings. Stork is the only guy who is able to 1 base against Zerg players and win these days.
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On April 04 2011 01:29 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off. Stats = Roro imo. I think it's time for Roro to make a deep starleague run, and maybe keep up the tradition of random zerg silver medalist.
As long as we're not keeping up the "tradition" of random ZvZ finals while we're at it.
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On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
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On April 03 2011 17:26 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 15:49 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote:On April 03 2011 09:09 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote:
I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2. Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers: On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__- TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less". Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist. And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later. Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling. I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse. I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide.
ME 1
Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa"
First post:
"Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance"
Second-Nth post:
"I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah"
Tank post:
"Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?"
Response:
"Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!"
Tank post:
"He lost to _____ (noob player here)"
Response:
"Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges."
Tank post:
"MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player."
Response:
"Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months."
Tank post:
"Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense. I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do. Hmph. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree; at this point I don't see you ever changing your mind. Though I have to say that while I usually agree with you for the most part, I think your logic seems to be off in this specific case. Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
At this point I'm coming to the conclusion that you don't actually watch Starcraft since you are completely unwilling to talk Starcraft. At this point the best thing for me to do would probably be to dismiss you as a lost cause, but on this one occasion I will humor you.
The best starting place perhaps is with Stork vs Stats. This is the best starting place because it establishes the best baseline for comparison between Stork and Bisu. I already discussed Bisu's PvP losses earlier in the thread. The reason why is that this is exactly the kind of game Bisu has been losing lately against a player Bisu has never beaten (Stats is 2-0 vs Bisu). Watch how Bisu consistently eats Kal's storms with his reavers in their midgame clashes and then watch Stork's reaver micro against Stats, consistently saving reavers and sniping Stats' reavers in the face of beautiful storms.
Following this, we may as well continue talking about that same match. Stork played Action next in a fantastic PvZ on a map that favors Zerg. As we both know, Action is a player who is very inconsistent, sometimes playing at a high level (see also Action vs Bisu back in December) and sometimes playing like donkey balls. That night Action brought his A game.
Finally you have Stork vs Flash in the final boss role. Stork did not do anything wrong to lose that game. Some people including myself thought at the time that he should have chased Flash's marines but this would not have affected Flash's timing window.
And as Yxes2211 pointed out, Stork's play vs Jaedong wasn't really a worse loss than Bisu's vs Jaedong.
And similarly on the subject of losses, Baby countered Stork's build exactly, which is similar to Leta vs Bisu. (Btw, even though the medic was never really used, it was genius to make it: since Baby managed to scout Stork's build he knew that Stork's obs count was going to be low hence if Stork tried to follow up with "safe" play it would have backfired equally due to blind.) Yes there was a bit of scrappiness in his control but it wouldn't have mattered. Stork was sick on that particular day and it showed in his somewhat scrappy win over Mind.
Stork vs Shuttle was a total build order loss. Shuttle went 2 gate range so Stork went 3 gate range... but Shuttle was sneaky and made a late hidden citadel. Normally after Stork's probe left you would cancel range for the gas, but Shuttle kept it researching and cut dragoons instead for the extra gas. When Stork snuck his probe back in it saw range still researching so he had no reason to expect dt. Stork's only option was to try to force an elimination race which failed.
Stork vs Horang2... I feel like this was more a good example of how PvP can be very fickle rather than a failing of Stork's. He was playing superior Starcraft most of the game and when his psi storms lit up Horang2's army I thought it was won but Horang2's position just turned out to be a key factor since he was able to stream his zealots onto Stork's goons on the far side from Stork's reavers while his own reavers were able to fire on Stork's zealots. But no matter how much we'd like to criticize Horang2's scrappiness he's #1 PvP for a reason.
Stork vs Zero was just brilliant play by Zero, period. Yes I'd like to see from Stork some indication that Zero won't decimate him every time they face but that game was more Zero's credit than Stork's discredit.
I'll pass the wins over Mind, Hero, and Crazy-Hydra without too much remark. Stork rolled them as we'd expect, although Crazy-Hydra actually played pretty good. The game vs Hero was just LOL.
So again, I'm going to say that any standard that removes Stork from the PR removes Bisu as well. The opponents Bisu lost to were of similar standard and the opponents he beat were actually of lower standard overall (bear in mind that Soulkey and Really have been slumping). Off the top of my head, at least two of his wins were more to his opponent's discredit than Bisu's credit and one of his losses in particular was just a horrible, horrible game. 5-4 does not impress me any more than 5-6 after considering the competition.
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