Close but no Cigar Crazy-Hydra - Out of nowhere CH comes in gets an AK against MBC, culminating in a tense game against Sea. If Horang2 weren't randomly producing results, I'd say CH would be a good contender for #10, but not nearly as good, considering this is completely out of the blue.
RorO - Solid play, as expected from RorO. He's qualified for the MSL, and has done well enough in nearly AKing KT (why can't RorO ever finish against Flash?). Still, RorO is as always: solid, uninspiring, and nothing more.
free - Off the B-team, back on the bench. Free's definitely looking better, though his MST game against Canata almost put me to sleep. Still, I'd like to see a bit more out of him before he makes it back on the PR.
Shoutouts Rock - The last time Nal_Rock won a standard league game was in January of 09. This month, Rock took out Snow in an SWL match, breaking the losing streak. 'Grats to him!
Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
Oh sure, he played solid opponents; he just lost to them. Everyone he's beaten I could only describe as "average." Either way, he copied Mortality nearly word-for-word. That sure sounds like not considering him at all.
thanks for leaving FlaSh up there. after the word 5 minutes of my life with my jaw to the floor, i half expected you to put flash at 2 and fantasy at 1... i almost heard nothing from 7-10... maybe with the exeption to horang2. otherwise, my dinotoss still reeks with failness.
I would have put Flash #2. But then I'm a fan of volatility and 2000 post PR threads and with Flash not really playing that much it would be hard to justify.
RorO: did you realize his "solid but unremarkable" self has gotten into top ten ELO now? I'm a fan of mediocre players (Really, Jaehoon, RorO) but I've always thought his ZvT was good and it's his ZvP that holds him back. So yeah I guess CNBC is about right but part of me wants him higher.
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
Oh sure, he played solid opponents; he just lost to them. Everyone he's beaten I could only describe as "average." Either way, he copied Mortality nearly word-for-word. That sure sounds like not considering him at all.
Are you really going to throw a hissy fit for Bisu being 8 instead of 7 (and don't even try to argue that he deserved top 6).
And contrary to popular belief, it is possible for two people to independently make the same conclusions...
On April 02 2011 08:10 VGhost wrote: RorO: did you realize his "solid but unremarkable" self has gotten into top ten ELO now? I'm a fan of mediocre players (Really, Jaehoon, RorO) but I've always thought his ZvT was good and it's his ZvP that holds him back. So yeah I guess CNBC is about right but part of me wants him higher.
Roro has been floating around 10-15 for a while now. The problem is... take a look at his head-to-head results vs Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu. I posted this in the other thread. I'll give you a hint: if you combine his scores against them he's pretty close to 1-20 as in 1 win and 20 losses. The record just kind of says what most people think of him: he's a very consistent winner over B-rank and even A-rank opponents, but he struggles mightily against the S-class.
anyway looks good, though I'd still put baby above FBH and maybe horang2 above zero
leta CBNC is kind of a stretch, since most of his wins vs. non-terrible players were strategic/aggressive rather than management; he's gotta show he's solid again after that slump!
Greetings Just as i predicted, Hydra left the PR in 2 months.
Also, i would put Kal instead of Horang2, seems to me like nobody likes Kal here, even when he is consistent. He did beat Hydra and have second PvZ and third PvT...
Also, Horang2 is is like flipping the coin outside PvP, just like BeSt[HyO] was in 2008.
I'm really happy you put FBH as high as #5. It'll be a hard spot to keep, but he deserved a high spot, and who knows when an ACE player will be as awesome as he has been again...
Flash as #1 made me happy as well (although that one was predictable).
Would've liked to see JD at #2, but I won't bother to argue very seriously about that, Fantasy has been pretty damn good indeed.
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
Oh sure, he played solid opponents; he just lost to them. Everyone he's beaten I could only describe as "average." Either way, he copied Mortality nearly word-for-word. That sure sounds like not considering him at all.
Are you really going to throw a hissy fit for Bisu being 8 instead of 7 (and don't even try to argue that he deserved top 6).
And contrary to popular belief, it is possible for two people to independently make the same conclusions...
Not at all, I just don't think that Stork deserves a spot on here in the first place. I'm not going to be satisfied with Bisu's placement either way, I'll just have to wait a month. But would you like to talk about Stork instead? It really feels like he copied your points though, and given your earlier #10, I think it's reasonable to guess that he might do that.
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
Oh sure, he played solid opponents; he just lost to them. Everyone he's beaten I could only describe as "average." Either way, he copied Mortality nearly word-for-word. That sure sounds like not considering him at all.
Are you really going to throw a hissy fit for Bisu being 8 instead of 7 (and don't even try to argue that he deserved top 6).
And contrary to popular belief, it is possible for two people to independently make the same conclusions...
Not at all, I just don't think that Stork deserves a spot on here in the first place. I'm not going to be satisfied with Bisu's placement either way, I'll just have to wait a month. But would you like to talk about Stork instead? It really feels like he copied your points though, and given your earlier #10, I think it's reasonable to guess that he might do that.
Ignoring the statistics -- which aren't as bad for Stork as they see at first glance -- exactly how has Stork been playing poorly recently?
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
Oh sure, he played solid opponents; he just lost to them. Everyone he's beaten I could only describe as "average." Either way, he copied Mortality nearly word-for-word. That sure sounds like not considering him at all.
Are you really going to throw a hissy fit for Bisu being 8 instead of 7 (and don't even try to argue that he deserved top 6).
And contrary to popular belief, it is possible for two people to independently make the same conclusions...
Not at all, I just don't think that Stork deserves a spot on here in the first place. I'm not going to be satisfied with Bisu's placement either way, I'll just have to wait a month. But would you like to talk about Stork instead? It really feels like he copied your points though, and given your earlier #10, I think it's reasonable to guess that he might do that.
Ignoring the statistics -- which aren't as bad for Stork as they see at first glance -- exactly how has Stork been playing poorly recently?
Look who he's lost to, and who he's beaten. He's basically only won against average players, and lost to any good players he's played in the last month. How does that make him worthy of a spot exactly? It really seems like you just want to make excuses for him rather than show that he's actually been doing well.
On April 02 2011 07:32 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, I completely disagree with your Stork placement, and I really feel like you copied Mortality nearly word for word on his placement. I just don't see Stork deserving a spot here, to be honest. He belongs in CBNC in my opinion.
No you can be sure FW didn't even consider Mortality's ranking when making this lol
honestly Stork played quite well and his list of opponents was solid
Oh sure, he played solid opponents; he just lost to them. Everyone he's beaten I could only describe as "average." Either way, he copied Mortality nearly word-for-word. That sure sounds like not considering him at all.
Are you really going to throw a hissy fit for Bisu being 8 instead of 7 (and don't even try to argue that he deserved top 6).
And contrary to popular belief, it is possible for two people to independently make the same conclusions...
Not at all, I just don't think that Stork deserves a spot on here in the first place. I'm not going to be satisfied with Bisu's placement either way, I'll just have to wait a month. But would you like to talk about Stork instead? It really feels like he copied your points though, and given your earlier #10, I think it's reasonable to guess that he might do that.
Ignoring the statistics -- which aren't as bad for Stork as they see at first glance -- exactly how has Stork been playing poorly recently?
Look who he's lost to, and who he's beaten. He's basically only won against average players, and lost to any good players he's played in the last month. How does that make him worthy of a spot exactly? It really seems like you just want to make excuses for him rather than show that he's actually been doing well.
To me it seems like an excuse to throw him off. Again. Please tell me based on GAME PLAY why exactly Stork is not deserving. If you haven't even watched his games -- which I'm beginning to suspect -- then how exactly do you feel you can fairly judge him? Statistics are very useful but only to a point.
On April 02 2011 10:00 Holgerius wrote: I'm really happy you put FBH as high as #5. It'll be a hard spot to keep, but he deserved a high spot, and who knows when an ACE player will be as awesome as he has been again...
Flash as #1 made me happy as well (although that one was predictable).
Would've liked to see JD at #2, but I won't bother to argue very seriously about that, Fantasy has been pretty damn good indeed.
This summes up what I feel about the ranking. I was really unhappy with Fantasy over Jaedong as I feel that Jaedong has his number. But it was a nice PR, as always from Flamewheel.
It's pretty cool and nostalgic having FBH up there, but I honestly don't feel that he'd be a heavyweighter in a BoX, neither Horang2. Fantasy deserves his #2, but I find it weird that he can surpass Flash on the Kespa rank when he's totally uninspiring to watch compared to Flash. Goes to the Kespa rank's discredit tbh.
On April 02 2011 14:09 Demand2k wrote: It's pretty cool and nostalgic having FBH up there, but I honestly don't feel that he'd be a heavyweighter in a BoX, neither Horang2. Fantasy deserves his #2, but I find it weird that he can surpass Flash on the Kespa rank when he's totally uninspiring to watch compared to Flash. Goes to the Kespa rank's discredit tbh.
I think I sense a little bias leaking over from your team icon.
Fantasy and Flash are such different players it's hard to really compare them. Flash has the machine, the actual strategic innovation that affects the game, the perfection going for him; fantasy's got creativity and versatility, and a penchant for weird games. I like to watch both, for different reasons, but I'd argue fantasy's currently the best player there is (based just on this month) and wanted him at #1 on the PR - though of course I understand the "can't take Flash off for not playing" argument.
TL;DR: You considering him "uninspiring" is a bad reason to dispute a mainly results-based rank like the KeSPA rank, and is kind of funny since a lot of people have the same complaint about Flash.
On April 02 2011 14:09 Demand2k wrote: It's pretty cool and nostalgic having FBH up there, but I honestly don't feel that he'd be a heavyweighter in a BoX, neither Horang2. Fantasy deserves his #2, but I find it weird that he can surpass Flash on the Kespa rank when he's totally uninspiring to watch compared to Flash. Goes to the Kespa rank's discredit tbh.
I keep having to say this but remember that in KeSPA you lose points over time and the KA2/Bigfile season was more than half a year ago. Flash dropped because it's been too long since he won a SL even though it was just 2 seasons ago.
From the perspective of TIME, Flash's drop is justifiable because he's only won 1 SL match and 2 MST matches in the past 6+ months and accumulated no other individual league results, which are what is valued most by KeSPA and the fans (us die-hard SC lovers pay attention to PL but many fans only pay cursory attention to what happens in PL).
On April 02 2011 11:09 Lightwip wrote: Not at all, I just don't think that Stork deserves a spot on here in the first place. I'm not going to be satisfied with Bisu's placement either way, I'll just have to wait a month. But would you like to talk about Stork instead?
If Stork doesn't, then Bisu doesn't. Both Stork and Bisu beat some scrubs and lost to some decent people. The only anomaly is Stork losing to Shuttle, which IIRC was a BO loss and Shuttle actually has very nice PvP.
No wonder you want people to talk only about Stork and not Bisu XD
Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
Great write up as always. I do, for once, disagree with a lot of the placements (I'd switch Bisu and Stats for one, I feel Bisu has gotten treated a bit harshly for losing some games against pretty good players and then sweeping his MST group as opposed to Stats). Hydra hasn't really played enough games to drop him completely off either in my opinion. But no matter, like always it's on time and excellently done!
Solid ranking. I like how you confine yourself to the month at hand while taking in account not only results but also quality of play. I like boring players a little more than you do, but I believe it's actually better for the PR to highlight the flashy players like Zero rather than the engines like Roro.
Engine is such a good word to describe Roro, he is the single most invisible-yet-competent zerg player (alongside maybe Hyun) that never gets any love because he's so very average.
On April 02 2011 09:51 DMXD wrote: Another good PR. Bisu... what happen to your godly pvp man???
btw cute baby pics ^_^
it's been average for pretty much all season. idk why, think part of it is scouting (lol his game vs free where he never scouts free's two hidden bases all game), maybe he's too predictable (going back a bit, but his game vs stats in last years' SPL final he got outplayed so easily)
On April 02 2011 09:55 Phradamon wrote:
Also, Horang2 is is like flipping the coin outside PvP, just like BeSt[HyO] was in 2008.
Best regards!
horang2's PvP is godlike (actually #1 ELO right now), if you haven't seen his game vs afrotoss, do so, but if you actually watch his games his vT, vZ is actually evolving to the point where it's getting competent and he can't really be considered just a vP sniper
FWIW, last night's playoff would leave fantasy at A (loss to Stats replaced by loss to Jaedong), drop Jaedong to F (adds a third loss, loss more "recent" than wins; firebathero C, BaBy D, Horang2 E), and move Bisu up to I (win over Jaedong replaces loss to Stork; RorO J, Kal K, free L, ZerO M).
I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Because MSL aside, he only played a total of 5 games this past month, going 2-3. His 2 wins came against Rock (lol) and Ssak. That is a terrible month.
This is an interesting rank, and I don't have much to say on the matter.
Though on the concept of Horang2, I hate him. I see him as a potential threat to Bisu, Stork, Kal, in the individual leagues. Problem is while that Horang2 can knock them out, he will likely lose against any other race in the later stages that the Protoss dragons could beat. So he's just a big spoiler.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +
Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide. ME 1 Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa" First post: "Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance" Second-Nth post: "I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah" Tank post: "Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?" Response: "Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!" Tank post: "He lost to _____ (noob player here)" Response: "Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges." Tank post: "MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player." Response: "Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months." Tank post: "Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote: I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players.
Last month Bisu was an equally good example of this. I know we're all basking in the glory of beating Jaedong this time around, but you look at that 5-4 from last month... I mean yeah he beat Sea, but he lost to Leta's TvP and he's lost against every good PvPer he's faced.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but picking on Stork seems counter-productive for your own (very clear) fanboy-ness. Sure, the loss to BaBy wasn't real shiny, and sure Stork didn't beat anybody "good" (except Stats, which oh yeah Bisu didn't)... but exactly the same sort of qualifications apply to Bisu for March.
And when you add it all up - who's better than these two, anyway? RorO? Amusing, but despite fanboyism I'll say no. Crazy-Hydra for the all-kill? Maybe... but who do you drop? Do we put Kal on? Calm?
On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote: I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players.
Last month Bisu was an equally good example of this. I know we're all basking in the glory of beating Jaedong this time around, but you look at that 5-4 from last month... I mean yeah he beat Sea, but he lost to Leta's TvP and he's lost against every good PvPer he's faced.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but picking on Stork seems counter-productive for your own (very clear) fanboy-ness. Sure, the loss to BaBy wasn't real shiny, and sure Stork didn't beat anybody "good" (except Stats, which oh yeah Bisu didn't)... but exactly the same sort of qualifications apply to Bisu for March.
And when you add it all up - who's better than these two, anyway? RorO? Amusing, but despite fanboyism I'll say no. Crazy-Hydra for the all-kill? Maybe... but who do you drop? Do we put Kal on? Calm?
Yea..he lost to Leta's TvP, which was 2 fac vs 1 gate expand...YOU try beating, heck, even a D level terran like that.
On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote: I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players.
Last month Bisu was an equally good example of this. I know we're all basking in the glory of beating Jaedong this time around, but you look at that 5-4 from last month... I mean yeah he beat Sea, but he lost to Leta's TvP and he's lost against every good PvPer he's faced.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but picking on Stork seems counter-productive for your own (very clear) fanboy-ness. Sure, the loss to BaBy wasn't real shiny, and sure Stork didn't beat anybody "good" (except Stats, which oh yeah Bisu didn't)... but exactly the same sort of qualifications apply to Bisu for March.
And when you add it all up - who's better than these two, anyway? RorO? Amusing, but despite fanboyism I'll say no. Crazy-Hydra for the all-kill? Maybe... but who do you drop? Do we put Kal on? Calm?
Yea..he lost to Leta's TvP, which was 2 fac vs 1 gate expand...YOU try beating, heck, even a D level terran like that.
I am a big bisu fan but bisu has the amazing ability to choose the absolute wrong bo. In that game against leta he went 1 gate expand into obs. There is no build worse against a 2 fact. Most of his pvps he did have a slight to fairly bad bo disadvantage. He really needs to work on his unpredictability rather than his mechanics
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +
Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide. ME 1 Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa" First post: "Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance" Second-Nth post: "I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah" Tank post: "Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?" Response: "Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!" Tank post: "He lost to _____ (noob player here)" Response: "Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges." Tank post: "MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player." Response: "Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months." Tank post: "Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense.
I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +
Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide. ME 1 Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa" First post: "Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance" Second-Nth post: "I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah" Tank post: "Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?" Response: "Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!" Tank post: "He lost to _____ (noob player here)" Response: "Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges." Tank post: "MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player." Response: "Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months." Tank post: "Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
Look, for a second imagine that every zerg is jaedong, all terran are flash, and all protoss are bisu/stork.
Now watch all BW games with that in mind, then come back and tell me you wouldnt get a different view on the games because i am 100% sure you dont give flukey-never-good-before players the credit they're due for. The only example I can remember is how you think of stats (because I am a fanboy of him.) as "mediocore", because you dubbed him "mediocore", not because you watched the games he actually plays. Try watching BW with those glasses before thinking about who the players are, and what their reputation is, because watch everygame as the only game theyve played is the best option for a good measure stick. Dont act like people who use that arguement dont judge results also.....
On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote: I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players.
Last month Bisu was an equally good example of this. I know we're all basking in the glory of beating Jaedong this time around, but you look at that 5-4 from last month... I mean yeah he beat Sea, but he lost to Leta's TvP and he's lost against every good PvPer he's faced.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but picking on Stork seems counter-productive for your own (very clear) fanboy-ness. Sure, the loss to BaBy wasn't real shiny, and sure Stork didn't beat anybody "good" (except Stats, which oh yeah Bisu didn't)... but exactly the same sort of qualifications apply to Bisu for March.
And when you add it all up - who's better than these two, anyway? RorO? Amusing, but despite fanboyism I'll say no. Crazy-Hydra for the all-kill? Maybe... but who do you drop? Do we put Kal on? Calm?
Yea..he lost to Leta's TvP, which was 2 fac vs 1 gate expand...YOU try beating, heck, even a D level terran like that.
I am a big bisu fan but bisu has the amazing ability to choose the absolute wrong bo. In that game against leta he went 1 gate expand into obs. There is no build worse against a 2 fact. Most of his pvps he did have a slight to fairly bad bo disadvantage. He really needs to work on his unpredictability rather than his mechanics
I don't at all think you can blame BO issues for his PvP issues.
This loss trend started with the ace match against Kal. It's true that Kal expanded first but Bisu took a third faster and Kal wasn't able to find a timing window. The reason Bisu lost that game was due to inferior caster usage. I don't remember him even making any HT at all, except maybe at the very end, meanwhile Kal's storms were beautiful and Bisu's shuttle management during their large army center clashes was horrible, consistently allowing a single psi storm to nail both reavers and losing shuttles too easily.
With Stork... he's lost their last 5 encounters now.
His loss against Free was a total embarrassment where he allowed Free to take hidden expos TWICE without ever realizing they were there. I don't think he even knew about either one until after the game ended. And again, Free had superior caster usage.
His game against Stats his caster usage was again inferior and he allowed Stats to choose the locations of the battles and dictate the pace of the game.
And he finally broke the loss streak with a game against PerfectMan that he likely would have lost against a more competent opponent.
On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: Now watch all BW games with that in mind, then come back and tell me you wouldnt get a different view on the games because i am 100% sure you dont give flukey-never-good-before players the credit they're due for. The only example I can remember is how you think of stats (because I am a fanboy of him.) as "mediocore", because you dubbed him "mediocore", not because you watched the games he actually plays. Try watching BW with those glasses before thinking about who the players are, and what their reputation is, because watch everygame as the only game theyve played is the best option for a good measure stick. Dont act like people who use that arguement dont judge results also.....
Also, are you Superarc?
I'm sorry, but I think this is as close as it gets to trolling, or maybe you just want to defend Stats right now for some reason. From the last line, I'd say it's trolling. Maybe I described Stats as mediocre before, but right now the word I'd use to describe him is 'solid' if I were to speak without bias. No, I don't like him, nor do I think he's as good as KT fans say he is. But he is a good player that can get results. Nevertheless, one good game among a sea of idiocy could mean either that the player will improve or that they will not. The top players have the distinction of consistently playing well. Fine if you disagree with me, no need to be so hostile though.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +
Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide. ME 1 Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa" First post: "Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance" Second-Nth post: "I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah" Tank post: "Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?" Response: "Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!" Tank post: "He lost to _____ (noob player here)" Response: "Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges." Tank post: "MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player." Response: "Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months." Tank post: "Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense.
I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do.
Hmph. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree; at this point I don't see you ever changing your mind. Though I have to say that while I usually agree with you for the most part, I think your logic seems to be off in this specific case. Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
Storks play in his loss to Flash was pretty kick ass... I mean, that showcased some of the most kick ass shuttle micro I have seen in a long time. I'm not a Toss guy, but even I got all frisky watching that lol
Also, in his loss to JD, I don't think he really did anything wrong, but was caught off guard by the second hydra push. Stork saw JD throw down the the fourth hatch, and even JD said he was preparing to go into macro mode. I mean, its up to u to decide if the play was bad, but he defended the initial bust, and anyone would assume a macro game after seeing the fourth hatch. Plus tho JD was pumping hydras, it was in no way all in hydras.
Don't really follow Khan all that much so didn't see all of Stork's games, but those 2 losses stood out
On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: Also, are you Superarc?
I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor. (Even to the point of sometimes acknowledging the nature of his posting. Lightwip just argues indefatigably.)
On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: Also, are you Superarc?
I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor.
But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest.
On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: Also, are you Superarc?
I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor.
But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest.
And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc.
Still, he could be..
Another difference is that Superarc didn't talk shit about whoever his favorit players were compared with. He was more of a positive fan while Lightwip is always attacking the players that Bisu is compared with, whether it is Stork or Stats or Jaedong.
On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: Also, are you Superarc?
I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor.
But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest.
And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc.
Still, he could be..
Another difference is that Superarc didn't talk shit about whoever his favorit players were compared with. He was more of a positive fan while Lightwip is always attacking the players that Bisu is compared with, whether it is Stork or Stats or Jaedong.
On April 03 2011 15:51 Iplaythings wrote: Also, are you Superarc?
I don't think he is. SuperArc had a sense of humor.
But he is just as good at ignoring what's supposed to be constructive in ones posts and take a little irrelevant part example and write alot of irellevant stuff to what you posted, disregarding or ignoring the rest.
And Superarc was a CJ fan iirc.
Still, he could be..
Another difference is that Superarc didn't talk shit about whoever his favorit players were compared with. He was more of a positive fan while Lightwip is always attacking the players that Bisu is compared with, whether it is Stork or Stats or Jaedong.
I miss superarc
taking it too far, he was so obnoxious..
But yeah, thats prolly right.
It is probably just that I loved the CJ of Effort and coach Cho as much as him.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
Fox is like STX, potential never unleashed (Shine can play like a huge baller if he wants to.. So can Pure, roro, midas. Baby is just the only one who does it atm roro is getting there though).
FBH is getting some credit for demolishing his MST group and being an ACE player, his rating is maybe a tad high but Im happy to see him there
On April 03 2011 17:26 Lightwip wrote: Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
Did you see Stork vs Flash?
Stork fell behind early due to an early bunker rush and what I'm inclined to call map imba. Even so, he almost broke out of the contain, only not managing to do so due to a mine daebak. But even after getting contained he displayed tremendous force in taking control of the center, wiping out one of Flash's tank army, taking and protecting a side expo, all the while still not taking his natural.
It was an extremely fun game even if the eco difference proved too big in the end.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
Stats = Roro imo.
I think it's time for Roro to make a deep starleague run, and maybe keep up the tradition of random zerg silver medalist.
On April 03 2011 17:26 Lightwip wrote: Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
Did you see Stork vs Flash?
Stork fell behind early due to an early bunker rush and what I'm inclined to call map imba. Even so, he almost broke out of the contain, only not managing to do so due to a mine daebak. But even after getting contained he displayed tremendous force in taking control of the center, wiping out one of Flash's tank army, taking and protecting a side expo, all the while still not taking his natural.
It was an extremely fun game even if the eco difference proved too big in the end.
Also Stork vs Stats, Stork's Reaver/Shuttle micro was just AMAZING. When Stats tried storm his Reavers, Stork picked it up and then drop it somewhere else to not die. And plus have you see Stork vs Hero game? Stork successefully 1-based and beat Hero with some incredible Zealot/Dragoon micro against 1 full control group of Zerglings. Stork is the only guy who is able to 1 base against Zerg players and win these days.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
Stats = Roro imo.
I think it's time for Roro to make a deep starleague run, and maybe keep up the tradition of random zerg silver medalist.
As long as we're not keeping up the "tradition" of random ZvZ finals while we're at it.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +
Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide. ME 1 Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa" First post: "Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance" Second-Nth post: "I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah" Tank post: "Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?" Response: "Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!" Tank post: "He lost to _____ (noob player here)" Response: "Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges." Tank post: "MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player." Response: "Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months." Tank post: "Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense.
I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do.
Hmph. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree; at this point I don't see you ever changing your mind. Though I have to say that while I usually agree with you for the most part, I think your logic seems to be off in this specific case. Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
At this point I'm coming to the conclusion that you don't actually watch Starcraft since you are completely unwilling to talk Starcraft. At this point the best thing for me to do would probably be to dismiss you as a lost cause, but on this one occasion I will humor you.
The best starting place perhaps is with Stork vs Stats. This is the best starting place because it establishes the best baseline for comparison between Stork and Bisu. I already discussed Bisu's PvP losses earlier in the thread. The reason why is that this is exactly the kind of game Bisu has been losing lately against a player Bisu has never beaten (Stats is 2-0 vs Bisu). Watch how Bisu consistently eats Kal's storms with his reavers in their midgame clashes and then watch Stork's reaver micro against Stats, consistently saving reavers and sniping Stats' reavers in the face of beautiful storms.
Following this, we may as well continue talking about that same match. Stork played Action next in a fantastic PvZ on a map that favors Zerg. As we both know, Action is a player who is very inconsistent, sometimes playing at a high level (see also Action vs Bisu back in December) and sometimes playing like donkey balls. That night Action brought his A game.
Finally you have Stork vs Flash in the final boss role. Stork did not do anything wrong to lose that game. Some people including myself thought at the time that he should have chased Flash's marines but this would not have affected Flash's timing window.
And as Yxes2211 pointed out, Stork's play vs Jaedong wasn't really a worse loss than Bisu's vs Jaedong.
And similarly on the subject of losses, Baby countered Stork's build exactly, which is similar to Leta vs Bisu. (Btw, even though the medic was never really used, it was genius to make it: since Baby managed to scout Stork's build he knew that Stork's obs count was going to be low hence if Stork tried to follow up with "safe" play it would have backfired equally due to blind.) Yes there was a bit of scrappiness in his control but it wouldn't have mattered. Stork was sick on that particular day and it showed in his somewhat scrappy win over Mind.
Stork vs Shuttle was a total build order loss. Shuttle went 2 gate range so Stork went 3 gate range... but Shuttle was sneaky and made a late hidden citadel. Normally after Stork's probe left you would cancel range for the gas, but Shuttle kept it researching and cut dragoons instead for the extra gas. When Stork snuck his probe back in it saw range still researching so he had no reason to expect dt. Stork's only option was to try to force an elimination race which failed.
Stork vs Horang2... I feel like this was more a good example of how PvP can be very fickle rather than a failing of Stork's. He was playing superior Starcraft most of the game and when his psi storms lit up Horang2's army I thought it was won but Horang2's position just turned out to be a key factor since he was able to stream his zealots onto Stork's goons on the far side from Stork's reavers while his own reavers were able to fire on Stork's zealots. But no matter how much we'd like to criticize Horang2's scrappiness he's #1 PvP for a reason.
Stork vs Zero was just brilliant play by Zero, period. Yes I'd like to see from Stork some indication that Zero won't decimate him every time they face but that game was more Zero's credit than Stork's discredit.
I'll pass the wins over Mind, Hero, and Crazy-Hydra without too much remark. Stork rolled them as we'd expect, although Crazy-Hydra actually played pretty good. The game vs Hero was just LOL.
So again, I'm going to say that any standard that removes Stork from the PR removes Bisu as well. The opponents Bisu lost to were of similar standard and the opponents he beat were actually of lower standard overall (bear in mind that Soulkey and Really have been slumping). Off the top of my head, at least two of his wins were more to his opponent's discredit than Bisu's credit and one of his losses in particular was just a horrible, horrible game. 5-4 does not impress me any more than 5-6 after considering the competition.
On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote: I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2.
Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers:
On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:
On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__-
TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less".
Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist.
And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?
Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later.
Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling.
I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse.
I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +
Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide. ME 1 Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa" First post: "Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance" Second-Nth post: "I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah" Tank post: "Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?" Response: "Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!" Tank post: "He lost to _____ (noob player here)" Response: "Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges." Tank post: "MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player." Response: "Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months." Tank post: "Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here
I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense.
I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do.
Hmph. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree; at this point I don't see you ever changing your mind. Though I have to say that while I usually agree with you for the most part, I think your logic seems to be off in this specific case. Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month?
At this point I'm coming to the conclusion that you don't actually watch Starcraft since you are completely unwilling to talk Starcraft. At this point the best thing for me to do would probably be to dismiss you as a lost cause, but on this one occasion I will humor you.
The best starting place perhaps is with Stork vs Stats. This is the best starting place because it establishes the best baseline for comparison between Stork and Bisu. I already discussed Bisu's PvP losses earlier in the thread. The reason why is that this is exactly the kind of game Bisu has been losing lately against a player Bisu has never beaten (Stats is 2-0 vs Bisu). Watch how Bisu consistently eats Kal's storms with his reavers in their midgame clashes and then watch Stork's reaver micro against Stats, consistently saving reavers and sniping Stats' reavers in the face of beautiful storms.
Following this, we may as well continue talking about that same match. Stork played Action next in a fantastic PvZ on a map that favors Zerg. As we both know, Action is a player who is very inconsistent, sometimes playing at a high level (see also Action vs Bisu back in December) and sometimes playing like donkey balls. That night Action brought his A game.
Finally you have Stork vs Flash in the final boss role. Stork did not do anything wrong to lose that game. Some people including myself thought at the time that he should have chased Flash's marines but this would not have affected Flash's timing window.
And as Yxes2211 pointed out, Stork's play vs Jaedong wasn't really a worse loss than Bisu's vs Jaedong.
And similarly on the subject of losses, Baby countered Stork's build exactly, which is similar to Leta vs Bisu. (Btw, even though the medic was never really used, it was genius to make it: since Baby managed to scout Stork's build he knew that Stork's obs count was going to be low hence if Stork tried to follow up with "safe" play it would have backfired equally due to blind.) Yes there was a bit of scrappiness in his control but it wouldn't have mattered. Stork was sick on that particular day and it showed in his somewhat scrappy win over Mind.
Stork vs Shuttle was a total build order loss. Shuttle went 2 gate range so Stork went 3 gate range... but Shuttle was sneaky and made a late hidden citadel. Normally after Stork's probe left you would cancel range for the gas, but Shuttle kept it researching and cut dragoons instead for the extra gas. When Stork snuck his probe back in it saw range still researching so he had no reason to expect dt. Stork's only option was to try to force an elimination race which failed.
Stork vs Horang2... I feel like this was more a good example of how PvP can be very fickle rather than a failing of Stork's. He was playing superior Starcraft most of the game and when his psi storms lit up Horang2's army I thought it was won but Horang2's position just turned out to be a key factor since he was able to stream his zealots onto Stork's goons on the far side from Stork's reavers while his own reavers were able to fire on Stork's zealots. But no matter how much we'd like to criticize Horang2's scrappiness he's #1 PvP for a reason.
Stork vs Zero was just brilliant play by Zero, period. Yes I'd like to see from Stork some indication that Zero won't decimate him every time they face but that game was more Zero's credit than Stork's discredit.
I'll pass the wins over Mind, Hero, and Crazy-Hydra without too much remark. Stork rolled them as we'd expect, although Crazy-Hydra actually played pretty good. The game vs Hero was just LOL.
So again, I'm going to say that any standard that removes Stork from the PR removes Bisu as well. The opponents Bisu lost to were of similar standard and the opponents he beat were actually of lower standard overall (bear in mind that Soulkey and Really have been slumping). Off the top of my head, at least two of his wins were more to his opponent's discredit than Bisu's credit and one of his losses in particular was just a horrible, horrible game. 5-4 does not impress me any more than 5-6 after considering the competition.
Mortality, have I told you how much I love you? <3
Wow FBH is relevant again, woohoo. And finally some more positive recognition for Fantasy. The guy is the usually the measuring stick of inconsistency and therefore bad rep. And I will apologize beforehand, but how can I type the progamer's names with their race logo. (I'm sorry, I'm new to the posting on forums.)
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before.
I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before.
I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
You can better imagine that ACE's spirits is high, their 3 aces, Ruby, FBH and GGaemo qualified for a starleague, theyre gonna be trigger happy =D
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before.
I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
Your word choice is very interesting. You use the word mediocre in a very literal manner. I think the connotation is stronger than you intend, in a bad way that is. Solid and mediocre aren't words I would usually string together...
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before.
I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
Your word choice is very interesting. You use the word mediocre in a very literal manner. I think the connotation is stronger than you intend, in a bad way that is. Solid and mediocre aren't words I would usually string together...
When I almost want to damn the rank of April 1st, I restrain it because I know this is at TL, it will easily be banned for two days or longer, and I could don't see sc2 rank if I dislike it. I just don't realize April 1st means what, it really fool me! Well done! Good writeup for bw power rank!
On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote: I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player.
1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking.
2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them.
I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu.
Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off.
I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player.
Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games.
On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before.
I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
Your word choice is very interesting. You use the word mediocre in a very literal manner. I think the connotation is stronger than you intend, in a bad way that is. Solid and mediocre aren't words I would usually string together...
Medium strength then. That is what I mean.
I'm pretty sure that you are using the word correctly. Just saying that calling someone second-rate (synonymous) is usually taken as an insult although strictly speaking it isn't and probably is an accurate depiction of FBH's current skill. I just found it to be an interesting choice of words. You don't usually think of someone as stepping up their play to be mediocre.
Why so much reticence it calling Fantasy S. His has accomplished more in the past two years than any players but Flash and Jeadong. If you don't count him as a S player, I don't see how you could say Stork and Bisu are S. I don't think his wacky style discredit him. Sure it means he will sometime loose miserably to players he should have beaten but it's also an advantage when facing top players. Fantasy is unpredictable.
On April 05 2011 00:52 kamizushi wrote: Why so much reticence it calling Fantasy S. His has accomplished more in the past two years than any players but Flash and Jeadong. If you don't count him as a S player, I don't see how you could say Stork and Bisu are S. I don't think his wacky style discredit him. Sure it means he will sometime loose miserably to players he should have beaten but it's also an advantage when facing top players. Fantasy is unpredictable.
That's exactly what has been keeping him from entering the S-class: losing in silly, gimmicky ways to players he should have had no trouble beating.
On April 05 2011 00:52 kamizushi wrote: Why so much reticence it calling Fantasy S. His has accomplished more in the past two years than any players but Flash and Jeadong. If you don't count him as a S player, I don't see how you could say Stork and Bisu are S. I don't think his wacky style discredit him. Sure it means he will sometime loose miserably to players he should have beaten but it's also an advantage when facing top players. Fantasy is unpredictable.
It's the eternal question of "What is S class?" though, almost as hard as the bonjwa thing. In theory-world we say:
S-class (ideal): incredibly consistent against worse players including A-class, only loses to other S-class (Flash, Jaedong, ?) A-class (ideal): beats worse players, has a chance against the best players but loses most of the time (basically consistency: Sea is probably the epitome of the A-class, and unique in almost never slumping out of it).
The thing is, no-one actually plays S class all the time, so imo there's basically two classes of players:
S-class (reality): Can play at S level for streaks, even months at a time, never drops below A level. A-class (reality): Plays at A level most of the time but slump will drop out of this.
This is why Stork, Bisu, and even Jaedong can be considered S-class - they're almost always playing at least an A game. Similarly, we consider Calm, Kal, ZerO, free, etc. A class players - they periodically play really bad (50% or so) for months at a time even though they've got a really high peak.
(I'd argue we really ought to say there's a third "B class" of decent players - RorO, Stats (so far), Movie: players who can maintain a 50% (+ or - a bit) and beat good players but aren't really "good"; or players who are really streaky (Shine, Hyuk).)
The thing about fantasy is that he's better than A-class when on but unpredictable as my "B" class when he's off. S-class? Kind of... I mean when Flash got bounced from leagues last season it was a WTF moment of epic proportions, but it would have been a "meh" moment for fantasy. I guess that's the difference.
I think Fantasy's consistency is underrated. He's been consistently floating around 65-70% wins for close to a year now. He's not really a gimmicky player anymore if he ever truly was one. Yes he has always done a lot of wacky builds but he's always been geared more towards macro play. Fantasy still has his share of WTF moments but he's a really, really solid player. Over the past year he's been the third best player in the world.
On April 05 2011 05:57 Mortality wrote: I think Fantasy's consistency is underrated. He's been consistently floating around 65-70% wins for close to a year now. He's not really a gimmicky player anymore if he ever truly was one. Yes he has always done a lot of wacky builds but he's always been geared more towards macro play. Fantasy still has his share of WTF moments but he's a really, really solid player. Over the past year he's been the third best player in the world.
At the same time, if we look at the results over the last 4 months (since Dec 1 2010, or a starleague "season" (in most cases) length) for TBLS+J, we'll see a pattern. Spare me the "but stats can only..." talk, I realize this, but we can still eyeball it and say, "Should he have lost to this guy?" Cheese happens, I realize, but in the grand scheme we can discount it. I think.
Stork: 38-20 (65.52%) Losses to Shuttle, BaBy, ZerO, Flash, Horang2 (x2), Jaedong, Sea, Stats, ZerO (x4), Fantasy (x3), HiyA, LuCifer, RorO, Shine LuCifer sticks out like a sore thumb on that loss list. RorO imo is a bad ZvP player (and his winrate agrees). Otherwise, every one of these players is A or better vs Protoss; with 2 "bad losses" that gives Stork a 3% "bad loss" rate on games played.
Bisu: 39-14 (73.58%). Losses to Jaedong, Stats, Leta, free[gm], Stork (x4), Kal (x2), HiyA, Hydra, Flash, Action. Leta in his current form and TvP reputation is a bad loss. Action is a player Bisu shouldn't lose to no matter how epic the game. That's 2 bad losses for 4%.
Jaedong: 39-19 (67.24%). Losses to Bisu (x3), s2, Flash, Neo.G_Soulkey, BByong, Light (x2), Hydra (x4), Snow (x2), Violet, Stork, HoGiL, HiyA Except for BByong - and maybe HiyA's TvZ - every single one of those is an A or better, or a Zerg. Even JvZ has to take some losses, and it's hard to predict which ones: JvZ still went 15-7 over this timespan. If we include HoGiL, that's 2 bad losses total, or again a 3% "bad loss" rate; with HiyA it's 3 for 5%.
Flash: 34-10 (77..27%). Losses to BaBy, Tyson, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Hyuk, Classic, Ssak, Kal, Light. Six of those - BaBy, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Kal, and Light - are A or better. Of the other four he shouldn't have lost to, Tyson's got a mean PvT, Classic has proved he's got good TvT (especially vs Flash for whatever reason), and Hyuk is Hyuk, leaving Ssak as the sole "???" result - and judging by WL playoffs maybe it's not that weird. Anyway, call it 3 bad losses - Tyson, Hyuk, and Ssak - for 7% "bad losses".
I find it interesting that Flash has the highest "bad loss" rate here (kind of sort of maybe), even though he's got the highest win rate by a significant margin.
In comparison:
Fantasy: 39-23 (62.90%). Losses to Jaedong (x2), Stats, Movie (x2), Sea, Reality, Calm (x3), Horang2, Stork, ZerO, ggaemo, Jaehoon, Flash, Tyson, Neo.G_Soulkey, TurN, XellOs, Violet, Modesty. While the overall record is in line with the four accepted "S class" players of today's scene, the losses are much wilder. Movie, Reality, Horang2, ggaemo, Jaehoon, Tyson, TurN, Xellos, and Modesty are none of them players an S-Class Terran should lose to. (Movie and Modesty I'd accept as okay losses for a Zerg; Horang2 for a Protoss). With not one but two losses to Movie, that's a total of 10 "bad losses" - 16% of games, which is double Flash's and three times higher than the other three, in the last four months.
If we assume that he's played a similar range of players, what that does mean is - since his win percentage is similar - that he's even better against S- and A-class players than Stork and Jaedong at least - but that is exactly what he's accused of: unpredictability. Beat Stork, lose to Jaehoon.
Overstated? Probably, just like Bisu's PvT problems. But like anything overstated, it's got a kernel of truth.
On April 05 2011 08:12 VGhost wrote: Flash: 34-10 (77..27%). Losses to BaBy, Tyson, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Hyuk, Classic, Ssak, Kal, Light. Six of those - BaBy, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Kal, and Light - are A or better. Of the other four he shouldn't have lost to, Tyson's got a mean PvT, Classic has proved he's got good TvT (especially vs Flash for whatever reason), and Hyuk is Hyuk, leaving Ssak as the sole "???" result - and judging by WL playoffs maybe it's not that weird. Anyway, call it 3 bad losses - Tyson, Hyuk, and Ssak - for 7% "bad losses".
Stork cheesed Flash, BaBy cheesed Flash. Kal won with carriers on Aztec, Tyson won with Carriers on BR.
Losses to Calm, Zero, Hyuk, Classic, Ssak and Light were legit games where Flash was outplayed. I wouldn't call a loss like Tyson a "bad loss". I would call it Carrier PvT on BR.
Personally I see Fantasy as S-Class. TBLS is simply an elite clan within the S-Class designation. Fantasy is my favourite Terran because of his funky builds, so I don't mind if he loses more to worse players.
Kal should be S-Class if he weren't so terrible at times. I await the day that he finally delivers. And of course Effort will return in less than 5 months and could join the ranks. Ideally we will have TBLS + Fantasy + Kal + Effort as S Class this fall. I can hope.
Fantasy had a rough spot briefly in December. On the whole, otherwise speaking, he's been incredibly consistent since May of last year (without using TLPD... 66% since May 1, I believe?).
In December, for a brief while, for reasons I cannot make sense of, Fantasy looked shaken and I've never really understood why since he was coming off the hottest win streak in his career when that happened.
Edit: Okay, verified, 66% since May 1, 2010, rounded to the nearest integer of course.
21-14 (60%) TvT. 7 of those losses were to Flash (3-7 since May 1). When you win 60% and a third of your games are against the world's best player I think that says something. Two of his four losses against "weak" opponents were picked up in his December slump.
36-16 (69%) TvZ. 0-3 vs JD and 1-4 vs Soulkey are the only bothersome things here. Soulkey's ZvT for a while had been considered really good (mid 2010) and beat Fantasy twice then, although right now it sucks. Fantasy lost to it twice in December but beat it more recently. All other players who have beaten him that have played more than 1 game against Fantasy during this time are at best 50% against him including Calm, Zero and Effort.
28-14 (67%) TvP. The only player to have faced him more than once and still hold a winning record over him is Snow (2-1).
And this is just looking at raw stats, not taking into account caliber of game play. I think he's very consistent and while yes, he's less consistent than Flash (who isn't?), and yes he sometimes loses games in absurdly retarded ways that make us slap are heads, these incidents tend to get hyped up tremendously. I also think that many people look too much at Flash when they make comparisons. Don't forget that Flash stands out next to anyone right now. If you look at other players... okay, Bisu might have a nice win record recently, but when was the last time he made it past Ro8 in SL? What about mid last year where he went on what, a 6 game loss streak? Then floundered up until the current season? What about Stork, whose record is similar? Even Jaedong, whose consistent dominance is only surpassed by Flash's, spent an entire season unable to win over his most difficult opponents.
On April 05 2011 09:14 Mortality wrote: Fantasy had a rough spot briefly in December. On the whole, otherwise speaking, he's been incredibly consistent since May of last year (without using TLPD... 66% since May 1, I believe?).
In December, for a brief while, for reasons I cannot make sense of, Fantasy looked shaken and I've never really understood why since he was coming off the hottest win streak in his career when that happened.
Honestly I don't really follow fantasy's play beyond making sure to watch any recommended TvZs, because those tend to be his best moments - so I'm not as familiar with specific games etc. and I'm going off stats. Also while I've followed PL etc. more or less for a while it's only in the last few weeks that I've (re)started watching a significant number of games (and registered, incidentally).
Disclaimers aside, I'd make two caveats to your post. First, going by the results list, the losses to Jaehoon and ggaemo were both in January, as were a number of others - his "mini slump" did extend that far. Second, while indeed you're right about his May-now run, if you go back to April (because why not, get the whole year) you have to add in losses to Kwanro, Pure, and HyuN as "bad". Pure was on his run, and HyuN's sporadically good (as attested by ELO). And yes, fantasy's May-November streak with literally no bad losses (judging by player rep, at least) is truly remarkable, I have to admit - but I think you might find streaks like that for TBLS without the random months where they lose bunches of games to 2nd string players. I could be wrong.
All that said, fantasy is, if not S-class, the closest thing to it of anyone not in TBLS. 65% winrate doesn't just happen over a full year to random decent players. At the same time, if he's S class, he's the "worst" of them (OSL notwithstanding) at the moment, in part because of the random losses to B players - and thus the debate exists.
(For fun and giggles: Hydra's at 61% for the last year; Stats is at 61%; RorO is at 60%; Snow is at 61%. Are these your "S Class threats"? RorO is clearly nobody's idea of S-class, Stats inspires significant doubt. Hydra and Snow have both been near acknowledgement though. The other interesting thing is that there seems to be a clear cutoff between the 60%+ and the 55%-ish players (everybody good who's not TBLS, fantasy, or these 4), which I find interesting. Why do we not have players in the 56%-59% range? Statistical fluke?)
On April 05 2011 09:14 Mortality wrote: Fantasy had a rough spot briefly in December. On the whole, otherwise speaking, he's been incredibly consistent since May of last year (without using TLPD... 66% since May 1, I believe?).
In December, for a brief while, for reasons I cannot make sense of, Fantasy looked shaken and I've never really understood why since he was coming off the hottest win streak in his career when that happened.
Honestly I don't really follow fantasy's play beyond making sure to watch any recommended TvZs, because those tend to be his best moments - so I'm not as familiar with specific games etc. and I'm going off stats. Also while I've followed PL etc. more or less for a while it's only in the last few weeks that I've (re)started watching a significant number of games (and registered, incidentally).
Disclaimers aside, I'd make two caveats to your post. First, going by the results list, the losses to Jaehoon and ggaemo were both in January, as were a number of others - his "mini slump" did extend that far. Second, while indeed you're right about his May-now run, if you go back to April (because why not, get the whole year) you have to add in losses to Kwanro, Pure, and HyuN as "bad". Pure was on his run, and HyuN's sporadically good (as attested by ELO). And yes, fantasy's May-November streak with literally no bad losses (judging by player rep, at least) is truly remarkable, I have to admit - but I think you might find streaks like that for TBLS without the random months where they lose bunches of games to 2nd string players. I could be wrong.
All that said, fantasy is, if not S-class, the closest thing to it of anyone not in TBLS. 65% winrate doesn't just happen over a full year to random decent players. At the same time, if he's S class, he's the "worst" of them (OSL notwithstanding) at the moment, in part because of the random losses to B players - and thus the debate exists.
(For fun and giggles: Hydra's at 61% for the last year; Stats is at 61%; RorO is at 60%; Snow is at 61%. Are these your "S Class threats"? RorO is clearly nobody's idea of S-class, Stats inspires significant doubt. Hydra and Snow have both been near acknowledgement though. The other interesting thing is that there seems to be a clear cutoff between the 60%+ and the 55%-ish players (everybody good who's not TBLS, fantasy, or these 4), which I find interesting. Why do we not have players in the 56%-59% range? Statistical fluke?)
I edited my above post. And for the record, I think you will find minislumps in TBLS, especially in Bisu and Stork, that match Fantasy's little slump in December/early January.
Edit: also I rate Fantasy as #3 over the past year. He's attained results. Stork and Bisu haven't. At the end of the day, win percentage is nice, but if you lose the maximum number of games and win SL that's still better than losing the minimum number of games and going home a loser. I guess I should revise that Stork's results are actually not too far behind Fantasy's. But Bisu... he needs to break deep into SL.
The whole TBLS thing doesn't even really make sense. Fantasy is just better than Stork now. His stats are better than Stork's and he's accomplished more than him over the past couple of years. Stork's been solid for decades, but when was the last time he actually did something, other than make it the OSL finals and lose to Fantasy?
On April 05 2011 08:12 VGhost wrote: Flash: 34-10 (77..27%). Losses to BaBy, Tyson, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Hyuk, Classic, Ssak, Kal, Light. Six of those - BaBy, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Kal, and Light - are A or better. Of the other four he shouldn't have lost to, Tyson's got a mean PvT, Classic has proved he's got good TvT (especially vs Flash for whatever reason), and Hyuk is Hyuk, leaving Ssak as the sole "???" result - and judging by WL playoffs maybe it's not that weird. Anyway, call it 3 bad losses - Tyson, Hyuk, and Ssak - for 7% "bad losses".
I'm not sure it's fair to say "Flash had a higher percentage of bad losses"--the actual number of bad losses by Flash wasn't much more than the rest of the "S-class." But Flash has fewer losses overall, so the percentage of "bad losses" just looks bigger.
On April 05 2011 10:47 GolemMadness wrote: The whole TBLS thing doesn't even really make sense. Fantasy is just better than Stork now. His stats are better than Stork's and he's accomplished more than him over the past couple of years. Stork's been solid for decades, but when was the last time he actually did something, other than make it the OSL finals and lose to Fantasy?
He also made it into the MSL semis (and yes, lost to ZerO, badly). I think the upcoming Starleague season will say a lot about where the two of them are compared to each other.
@Mortality: I could accept fantasy as #3 (I was in fact arguing for him #1 in PR earlier in the thread) but imo he's not higher than #4 overall as I'd put Stork ahead. (And Bisu maybe - he's been a Proleague machine.) The OSL win was fantasy's first deep starleague run since his losses to Jaedong, I think, while Stork's been hanging around consistently even if not advancing really far, and made deep runs in both leagues, even if he didn't win anything.
I'm also not convinced we really disagree about anything factual here so much as interpreting it differently. 4th (even 5th) or 3rd isn't a significant difference, we clearly both think he belongs in the S-class discussion at least, and so forth. The one other thing I'd mention is that Stork has a worse environment, being the only really good player on his team atm while fantasy splits ace duties with Bisu and sometimes whichever of s2/Hyuk/BeSt etc. is streaky-good at the time. With nearly identical results, I think that tips the balance in Stork's favor.
On April 05 2011 11:03 VGhost wrote: I'm also not convinced we really disagree about anything factual here so much as interpreting it differently. 4th (even 5th) or 3rd isn't a significant difference, we clearly both think he belongs in the S-class discussion at least, and so forth. The one other thing I'd mention is that Stork has a worse environment, being the only really good player on his team atm while fantasy splits ace duties with Bisu and sometimes whichever of s2/Hyuk/BeSt etc. is streaky-good at the time. With nearly identical results, I think that tips the balance in Stork's favor.
Though Stork doesn't necessarily have another S-class player on his team, I think (despite their slumping) his supporting cast is comparable to SKT-sans-Bisu. Jangbi was good at some point; Great did make an individual league final; Turn, Brave and Grape are up-and-coming (and arguably? better than Ssak, Sun, Paralyze, but this is debatable). Best, s2, Hyuk vs Jangbi/Great seems pretty even to me.
On April 05 2011 11:03 VGhost wrote: I'm also not convinced we really disagree about anything factual here so much as interpreting it differently. 4th (even 5th) or 3rd isn't a significant difference, we clearly both think he belongs in the S-class discussion at least, and so forth. The one other thing I'd mention is that Stork has a worse environment, being the only really good player on his team atm while fantasy splits ace duties with Bisu and sometimes whichever of s2/Hyuk/BeSt etc. is streaky-good at the time. With nearly identical results, I think that tips the balance in Stork's favor.
Though Stork doesn't necessarily have another S-class player on his team, I think (despite their slumping) his supporting cast is comparable to SKT-sans-Bisu. Jangbi was good at some point; Great did make an individual league final; Turn, Brave and Grape are up-and-coming (and arguably? better than Ssak, Sun, Paralyze, but this is debatable). Best, s2, Hyuk vs Jangbi/Great seems pretty even to me.
Yah, but "sans Bisu" is a pretty big qualification. I don't mean to post one-liners... but there's not that much else to say about it.
Okay, I'll grant that *after* Bisu KHAN may be better, but they still lack the "second ace" option that SKT has - and KT (Stats), Stars (free/ZerO/Light), Entus (Hydra/Leta?/Snow?), or MBC (before the Light transfer) have, which imo has to be huge in terms of stress level even if it isn't actually reflected in results.
it's so funny to look back on all the FBH hate in the GOMTV MSL LR threads
"OMGGG FUCK YOU FIREBATHERO I HOPE YOU BURN IN HELL DISRESPECTFUL FAGGOT"
"NOOOO FUCK THIS CHEESY TERRAN FHAGJHGKJAGLKA"
and now he's one of the most liked progamers lol.
fantasy is ranked too high imo. the fact that he keeps getting destroyed by jaedong speaks for itself, but that might be because he's pretty bad at tvz. other than that, really good ranking. glad to see stats on there.
On April 05 2011 10:47 GolemMadness wrote: The whole TBLS thing doesn't even really make sense. Fantasy is just better than Stork now. His stats are better than Stork's and he's accomplished more than him over the past couple of years. Stork's been solid for decades, but when was the last time he actually did something, other than make it the OSL finals and lose to Fantasy?
He also made it into the MSL semis (and yes, lost to ZerO, badly). I think the upcoming Starleague season will say a lot about where the two of them are compared to each other.
@Mortality: I could accept fantasy as #3 (I was in fact arguing for him #1 in PR earlier in the thread) but imo he's not higher than #4 overall as I'd put Stork ahead. (And Bisu maybe - he's been a Proleague machine.) The OSL win was fantasy's first deep starleague run since his losses to Jaedong, I think, while Stork's been hanging around consistently even if not advancing really far, and made deep runs in both leagues, even if he didn't win anything.
I'm also not convinced we really disagree about anything factual here so much as interpreting it differently. 4th (even 5th) or 3rd isn't a significant difference, we clearly both think he belongs in the S-class discussion at least, and so forth. The one other thing I'd mention is that Stork has a worse environment, being the only really good player on his team atm while fantasy splits ace duties with Bisu and sometimes whichever of s2/Hyuk/BeSt etc. is streaky-good at the time. With nearly identical results, I think that tips the balance in Stork's favor.
You're right that this argument isn't terribly important since we both seem to think Fantasy is S-class and deserves to be listed next to TBLS. However, a couple mistaken points made me want to address this anyway...
How exactly do you consider this season to be Fanta's first deep SL run when we had Flash vs Fantasy in Bigfile semifinals pushing a BONJWA into a tense 3-2 series that started out with arguably the greatest TvT game ever played?
And Stork dropped to Zero in the Ro8 of MSL, not the semis. Semis were Hydra-Jaedong and Zero-Great. MSL starts bo5 at Ro8... Stork's appearance in semis was at KA2 OSL. Interestingly, he managed to push JD to a 3-2 series, although the games were ridiculously scrappy considering who was playing.
However, other than these results, Stork's best result was just making it to Ro16 in KA1. In Hana Daetoo he was 2-0'd in Ro32 and in MST during Bigfile season he was dropped to offline prelims. Ouch?
Compare WCG 2010: Stork got eliminated in his first round while Fantasy made it 3 rounds (note: Stork was seeded higher but that's not an excuse because Fantasy beat Zero and then faced Flash). Granted Fanta faced a scrub in first round, but still. I wouldn't give him credit if that was all he had done. Fantasy also made Ro16 in Hana Daetoo MSL and passed Ro36 in both KA1 and KA2 OSL, losing a tie-breaker in KA1.
Basically, for the past 3 seasons, this was the first that Fantasy didn't make it to at least Ro16 in both leagues simultaneously and he made up for it with a 3-0 roflstomp of Stork in OSL finals. Meanwhile, Stork wasn't doing anything in OSL that Fantasy wasn't doing elsewhere and Stork was completely unable to achieve results in MSL.
Hence why it was Fantasy, not Stork, who was breathing down the necks of Flash and Jaedong in KeSPA ranking, which has a strong emphasis on individual league performance.
...okay I guess I'll shut up about fantasy vs Stork now, thanks for the corrections. Although I seriously didn't remember fantasy really being in a league like at all lately before this last OSL, gotta go upgrade my memory I guess.
On April 05 2011 16:38 ghrur wrote: While talking about Fantasy's OSL run... those games against calm will forever burn in my memory as some of the crappiest Semi-final games ever. T_T
Probably because you didn't watch Nukethestar's commentary. I certainly found them intertaining. I mean, one base into a single BC? wut? And it worked? I was ROFL so hard. Fantasy isn't known for his BM but that was just brutal.
On April 05 2011 16:38 ghrur wrote: While talking about Fantasy's OSL run... those games against calm will forever burn in my memory as some of the crappiest Semi-final games ever. T_T
Probably because you didn't watch Nukethestar's commentary. I certainly found them intertaining. I mean, one base into a single BC? wut? And it worked? I was ROFL so hard. Fantasy isn't known for his BM but that was just brutal.
Sure, because the follow-up to a blocjed 4-pool is a testament of skill... I mean, yeah, that was entertaining, but what did it show ? Fanta's play might not have been that bad in the serie (I thinkhe even played pretty well in set 5, and ok in set 2 even though Calm lost that game absolutely on his own), but please, game 1 contained maybe the worst decision making I have ever seen in a pro sc game. It was so retarded... It has its place among the worst Jaehoon/Canata failure
On April 05 2011 16:38 ghrur wrote: While talking about Fantasy's OSL run... those games against calm will forever burn in my memory as some of the crappiest Semi-final games ever. T_T
Probably because you didn't watch Nukethestar's commentary. I certainly found them intertaining. I mean, one base into a single BC? wut? And it worked? I was ROFL so hard. Fantasy isn't known for his BM but that was just brutal.
Sure, because the follow-up to a blocjed 4-pool is a testament of skill... I mean, yeah, that was entertaining, but what did it show ? Fanta's play might not have been that bad in the serie (I thinkhe even played pretty well in set 5, and ok in set 2 even though Calm lost that game absolutely on his own), but please, game 1 contained maybe the worst decision making I have ever seen in a pro sc game. It was so retarded... It has its place among the worst Jaehoon/Canata failure
I'm not saying it's a testament of skill. Calm had already lost. It was 100% BM I say. Calm should have GGed, Fantasy humiliated him and he had nobody to blame but himself. Doing a 4 pool is a bit like rolling dices. It's still legitimate since no player can afford to become too predictable, but I agree that it doesn't require the best mechanics to execute or to counter. Any B- zerg players could easily beat Flash with it if he doesn't see it coming.
Holy shit I had no idea that FBH went 13-3 thats insane really, it is also great that Jaedong is once again showing why he is the best Zerg out there :>.
Bisu is Bisu and I kinda advocate his TOP 3 but yet many peepz doubted that he should be getting that high and he proved that he deserved to be high by ACING JD!
On April 07 2011 01:50 Hazard wrote: Bisu is Bisu and I kinda advocate his TOP 3 but yet many peepz doubted that he should be getting that high and he proved that he deserved to be high by ACING JD!
Between JD playing not so great (and it being his 3rd game), the fact that's his only game so far this month, the fact it's Bisu's best MU, and the fact that Bisu totally didn't play that well last month... yeah, no.
I mean, Bisu aces WL playoffs and shows well entering R5/OSL prelims/MSL? top 3 is possible. But there wasn't anything to keep him there this time.
On April 07 2011 01:50 Hazard wrote: Bisu is Bisu and I kinda advocate his TOP 3 but yet many peepz doubted that he should be getting that high and he proved that he deserved to be high by ACING JD!
Between JD playing not so great (and it being his 3rd game), the fact that's his only game so far this month, the fact it's Bisu's best MU, and the fact that Bisu totally didn't play that well last month... yeah, no.
I mean, Bisu aces WL playoffs and shows well entering R5/OSL prelims/MSL? top 3 is possible. But there wasn't anything to keep him there this time.
JD didn't play that great? Have you watched the game? JD must've cloned off like half a dozen corsairs and microed his mutas to pick off ATLEAST a control group of zealots...when there were like 2 archons there. I would say JD played pretty well...
On April 07 2011 01:50 Hazard wrote: Bisu is Bisu and I kinda advocate his TOP 3 but yet many peepz doubted that he should be getting that high and he proved that he deserved to be high by ACING JD!
Between JD playing not so great (and it being his 3rd game), the fact that's his only game so far this month, the fact it's Bisu's best MU, and the fact that Bisu totally didn't play that well last month... yeah, no.
I mean, Bisu aces WL playoffs and shows well entering R5/OSL prelims/MSL? top 3 is possible. But there wasn't anything to keep him there this time.
JD didn't play that great? Have you watched the game? JD must've cloned off like half a dozen corsairs and microed his mutas to pick off ATLEAST a control group of zealots...when there were like 2 archons there. I would say JD played pretty well...
I didn't feel that Jaedong was playing bad, but Bisu atleast was awesome that game. Great multitask and agression, it was awesome, even as a Jaedong fan.
On April 07 2011 01:50 Hazard wrote: Bisu is Bisu and I kinda advocate his TOP 3 but yet many peepz doubted that he should be getting that high and he proved that he deserved to be high by ACING JD!
Between JD playing not so great (and it being his 3rd game), the fact that's his only game so far this month, the fact it's Bisu's best MU, and the fact that Bisu totally didn't play that well last month... yeah, no.
I mean, Bisu aces WL playoffs and shows well entering R5/OSL prelims/MSL? top 3 is possible. But there wasn't anything to keep him there this time.
JD didn't play that great? Have you watched the game? JD must've cloned off like half a dozen corsairs and microed his mutas to pick off ATLEAST a control group of zealots...when there were like 2 archons there. I would say JD played pretty well...
I didn't feel that Jaedong was playing bad, but Bisu atleast was awesome that game. Great multitask and agression, it was awesome, even as a Jaedong fan.
Bisu makes PvZ look really unfair. Jaedong makes ZvT look unfair and Flash makes TvP look unfair but they're not quite at the same level of complete domination that Bisu's PvZ is currently at. It's the most impressive matchup of any current player.
In my opinion, there were several issues with Jaedong's play. Two main points:
1) The first was mainly strategic. Taking the far away natural, plus going muta, played into the hands of Bisu from the very beginning. Continuing to sink money into defending it - and trying to expand behind it when it was never really secured - cost him the game.
2) If Jaedong was going to successfully go air, he needed better scourge control. Contrary to renzy, I thought his air micro was lacking. Certainly he scourged a couple sairs in the early/early-mid game, but past that point he didn't challenge the air control enough to be able to take map control. Bisu was forced to make a few archons, rather than storm, but these were just as effective.
In short, while the mutas looked like they were "holding off the inevitable" due to good micro, Jaedong's micro and decision-making was lacking in several places that could have made the loss much less inevitable.
Of course, none of this changes my main point, which is that Jaedong beat Bisu just a couple weeks ago - a single game going the other way doesn't prove anything.
On April 07 2011 06:33 VGhost wrote: In my opinion, there were several issues with Jaedong's play. Two main points:
1) The first was mainly strategic. Taking the far away natural, plus going muta, played into the hands of Bisu from the very beginning. Continuing to sink money into defending it - and trying to expand behind it when it was never really secured - cost him the game.
2) If Jaedong was going to successfully go air, he needed better scourge control. Contrary to renzy, I thought his air micro was lacking. Certainly he scourged a couple sairs in the early/early-mid game, but past that point he didn't challenge the air control enough to be able to take map control. Bisu was forced to make a few archons, rather than storm, but these were just as effective.
In short, while the mutas looked like they were "holding off the inevitable" due to good micro, Jaedong's micro and decision-making was lacking in several places that could have made the loss much less inevitable.
Of course, none of this changes my main point, which is that Jaedong beat Bisu just a couple weeks ago - a single game going the other way doesn't prove anything.
Which expansion are you suggesting Jaedong to take? The one in the open field that is pretty much impossible to simcity with? Plus, ummm, fall into Bisu's hands...really? Zergs in the past year have been doing what Jaedong is doing..., and how is the far expansion any harder to defend than the one in the open when you could simcity? =.=. Plus, I thought Jaedong's scourge control was quite good already. You can't expect him to still focus on his scourges when theres a dark templar in the natural. And I thought Jaedong did challenge Bisu's air enough, the only reason Bisu was able to drop him once in his 12 O clock expansion was because Bisu's zealot archon army was at Jaedong's 3 O clock, which drew his mutas back to defend. Bisu wasn't free to move his air units around as he wish, and although Jaedong didn't take map control, it was because of Bisu's archons mostly, while the corsairs were only a threat.
I wish I had the post from NrG. God, but he was explaining Jaedong's 4 base strategy, which was to delay Bisu's army with Muta-ling until hive tech, and push out with 4 gas with hive tech units.
IMO Flash's TvT is the most impressive match-up of any current player. Both in terms of quality of play, my feelings about their skills (Bisu tends to be a bit more metagame and map dependent) and statistics (comparable statistics for this season even with those god awful matches in MSL; Flash has higher lifetime -- also highest current AND lifetime ELO of any player in any match-up, not to mention a much longer streak: 17 consecutive TvT wins from 12/19/2010 until 3/22/2011).
Currently Zerg players are struggling with Bisu's revised timing (which forced JD to sunken up more than is ideal) as well as well as the fact that the map pool plays pretty strongly to Bisu's strengths as a player. I do think his PvZ is amazing. His corsair play is pure art. Take a look at that moving shot use in his game against Jaedong while CLONED scourges chase him around. Ridiculous. In order to get control of that match-up JD needed to delay Bisu's third but he couldn't.
I think Jaedong played the match well. Certainly not badly, there were so many little bits of micro he was doing to try and keep his 4base intact and mutas alive i was outstanded he lasted as long as he did. I think just strategically it was maybe just the wrong idea though and once Bisu had air control and decided to take 3rd base it was over. But Bisu and other P's are very good at just raping scourge these days.
The problem is that due to the way Fortress is set up there's a limit to how well JD can control Bisu's expanding without aerial dominance which he was struggling with due to Bisu's corsair play. Expanding to a 4th was the correct option and he had to do it to 12 main, but this allowed Bisu to do that cute little shuttle play to apply additional pressure. Losing the air battle cost JD the match.
JD vs. Bisu came down to scourge control and the DT that snuck into JDs third. If JD was going to go air, he had to get rid of the corsair mass which he really didn't do. It's that simple. How much money did JD sink into scourge? Alot. I think the announcers also said JD's loss came down to scourge... could be wrong tho.
I don't think JD played bad, I just think Bisu has better PvZ than JD has ZvP at the moment.
I'm the last person to take the word ''imba'' in my mouth, at least in a serious way, but I have a special appreciation for when players reach those astronomical heights in their race's ''hard'' match-up. Bisu's PvZ (that is currently at 2300+ ELO and 70%+ in life-time winrate) is flabbergastingly impressive. It makes me speechless when he displays his mastery vs the poor Zergs.
That being said, I have to agree with Mortality that Flash's TvT (well, all his match-ups to be completely honest ) is just something else. I mean, look at that win-streak. Look at the insane comebacks he makes. Look at his defensive skills (let's just ignore that game vs Baby, ok? XD). Look at the way he 1a-steamrolls opponents with simple BO rapes. His TvT really gives an aura of complete, utter, total fucking invincibility. You just can't beat him when he's in shape.
On April 07 2011 12:07 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: I've always wondered if any Protoss was/is as dominant in PvP as Flash is in TvT and Jaedong used to be in ZvZ.
Damn, now I remember how much I love watching JvZ, and how much I miss the time when he had 80-81% ZvZ 2 years ago. Good times.
Best, 17-game PvP winstreak. Looked untouchable... then Stork 3-killed SKT en route to his championship.
On April 07 2011 11:38 Holgerius wrote: I'm the last person to take the word ''imba'' in my mouth, at least in a serious way, but I have a special appreciation for when players reach those astronomical heights in their race's ''hard'' match-up. Bisu's PvZ (that is currently at 2300+ ELO and 70%+ in life-time winrate) is flabbergastingly impressive. It makes me speechless when he displays his mastery vs the poor Zergs.
That being said, I have to agree with Mortality that Flash's TvT (well, all his match-ups to be completely honest ) is just something else. I mean, look at that win-streak. Look at the insane comebacks he makes. Look at his defensive skills (let's just ignore that game vs Baby, ok? XD). Look at the way he 1a-steamrolls opponents with simple BO rapes. His TvT really gives an aura of complete, utter, total fucking invincibility. You just can't beat him when he's in shape.
In my opinion, Flash's TvZ and TvP are everything you would expect from a bonjwa but otherwise speaking a tad overrated. His TvT is, if anything, underrated. Whenever people mention a "best match-up" for Flash I always see TvZ or TvP listed. I could compare his TvZ and TvP to past players and I'm not even sure he'd win that argument (Flash fans would argue otherwise, but for sure at least in TvZ I would not rank him #1 all time, probably #4 actually). But in TvT... I've never seen anything like it. Already a year-ish ago I was ready to give him the crown, but he's only continued to look more scary since.
On April 07 2011 07:10 Mortality wrote: IMO Flash's TvT is the most impressive match-up of any current player. Both in terms of quality of play, my feelings about their skills (Bisu tends to be a bit more metagame and map dependent) and statistics (comparable statistics for this season even with those god awful matches in MSL; Flash has higher lifetime -- also highest current AND lifetime ELO of any player in any match-up, not to mention a much longer streak: 17 consecutive TvT wins from 12/19/2010 until 3/22/2011).
Currently Zerg players are struggling with Bisu's revised timing (which forced JD to sunken up more than is ideal) as well as well as the fact that the map pool plays pretty strongly to Bisu's strengths as a player. I do think his PvZ is amazing. His corsair play is pure art. Take a look at that moving shot use in his game against Jaedong while CLONED scourges chase him around. Ridiculous. In order to get control of that match-up JD needed to delay Bisu's third but he couldn't.
While Flash is getting better results (note winstreak, elo etc) Bisu is having very similar long term winrates in PvZ. If we compare their winrates from the start of 2010 and 2009 until now they show up with 2009-now Flash 76.98% with Bisu lagging slightly behind with 74.47%. Now if we look from 2010-now Bisu is actually ahead with 78% vs 76.62%, for 2011 Flash is crushing with 93% against Bisus 85%.
Now I would argue that PvZ is a harder matchup to get consistent good results in than TvT, and I would say its well proven by the fact that other "good" PvZ players are often hanging around in the mid 50s and nobody else is breaking into the 60s beside people like Brave with a rather small samplesize. Looking at the other side of the matchup there is plenty of ZvP players with winrates around 60 and a few 65+ (if you look at older retired players, there is a lot of people with 65+, but there is no PvZ experts with good winrates).
TvT on the other hand have several other decent TvT players with winrates around 60% and you even have the odd man out Skyhigh sitting at 67% who was even at 70% before his recent slump and demotion to B team. Also I think its easier to take the game "safely" into the latter stages of the game in TvT, because of the defensive powers in the matchup, where the better player should have a better chance of winning. Another way to compare their ELO peaks is looking at the closest #2 in the matchup, for Flash hes 91 points ahead of Skyhighs peak while Bisu is 89 points ahead of the retired Nal_Ra and 101 points ahead of the next currently playing player, Stork. Pretty similar once again.
Now obviously what Flash have been doing in TvT is absolutely batshit insane, but he have peers not too far behind. Bisu on the other hand is the sole bright star in an otherwise a bleak PvZ universe. So IMO their dominance is their respective matchups are pretty equal in my mind
On April 07 2011 07:10 Mortality wrote: IMO Flash's TvT is the most impressive match-up of any current player. Both in terms of quality of play, my feelings about their skills (Bisu tends to be a bit more metagame and map dependent) and statistics (comparable statistics for this season even with those god awful matches in MSL; Flash has higher lifetime -- also highest current AND lifetime ELO of any player in any match-up, not to mention a much longer streak: 17 consecutive TvT wins from 12/19/2010 until 3/22/2011).
Currently Zerg players are struggling with Bisu's revised timing (which forced JD to sunken up more than is ideal) as well as well as the fact that the map pool plays pretty strongly to Bisu's strengths as a player. I do think his PvZ is amazing. His corsair play is pure art. Take a look at that moving shot use in his game against Jaedong while CLONED scourges chase him around. Ridiculous. In order to get control of that match-up JD needed to delay Bisu's third but he couldn't.
While Flash is getting better results (note winstreak, elo etc) Bisu is having very similar long term winrates in PvZ. If we compare their winrates from the start of 2010 and 2009 until now they show up with 2009-now Flash 76.98% with Bisu lagging slightly behind with 74.47%. Now if we look from 2010-now Bisu is actually ahead with 78% vs 76.62%, for 2011 Flash is crushing with 93% against Bisus 85%.
edit: derp, just realized you were comparing flash's TvT to Bisu's PvZ, not his TvZ.
Sorry, I'm not sure where else this comment should go, but... how long until we see an SC2 Power Rank? I imagine it is much harder to place both foreigners and Koreans in the same set of 10 top players, but TL has never disappointed before so I'm looking forward to the day we see one.
On April 10 2011 02:32 Psyqo wrote: Sorry, I'm not sure where else this comment should go, but... how long until we see an SC2 Power Rank? I imagine it is much harder to place both foreigners and Koreans in the same set of 10 top players, but TL has never disappointed before so I'm looking forward to the day we see one.
There's no real sense in doing an SC2 power rank until things settle down a bit. Have patience.
On April 10 2011 02:32 Psyqo wrote: Sorry, I'm not sure where else this comment should go, but... how long until we see an SC2 Power Rank? I imagine it is much harder to place both foreigners and Koreans in the same set of 10 top players, but TL has never disappointed before so I'm looking forward to the day we see one.
It was about 5 years before TL got their first BW power rank, I don't think SC2 is getting too poor a look right now.
I'm so embarrassed to admit I've not been watching too much BW lately, but from what I've seen I completely agree with the power rank. <3 you flamewheel.
On April 10 2011 14:19 Djabanete wrote: Bisu looked incredible in his games against both Flash and Jaedong. Wow. When is this man going to win another individual title?
as long as its not osl maybe this season? i can see him grabbing an msl
On April 10 2011 14:19 Djabanete wrote: Bisu looked incredible in his games against both Flash and Jaedong. Wow. When is this man going to win another individual title?
as long as its not osl maybe this season? i can see him grabbing an msl
Has to get through the group of Flash/JD/Sea first. TBH, I don't think anyone can talk about probable MSL winners until that group shakes out.
On April 10 2011 02:32 Psyqo wrote: Sorry, I'm not sure where else this comment should go, but... how long until we see an SC2 Power Rank? I imagine it is much harder to place both foreigners and Koreans in the same set of 10 top players, but TL has never disappointed before so I'm looking forward to the day we see one.
It probably won't happen until all the leagues solidify (an International League, perhaps?). The BW power rank didn't first occur until 2006 with Savior, long after the beginnings of TL. On top of that, all of the BW pro games are concentrated in S.Korea with a tight pool of players. As of now, we have to worry about North American, European, AND Asian players, all without consistent ways to measure their skill against one another due to the various leagues out there.
And this, people, is why fantasy isn't S-class. Yes, it was a group of all his worst MU. That means he only had one MU to practice. And the best of the Zergs was Calm, who's his own inconsistent self.
On April 18 2011 21:28 VGhost wrote: And this, people, is why fantasy isn't S-class. Yes, it was a group of all his worst MU. That means he only had one MU to practice. And the best of the Zergs was Calm, who's his own inconsistent self.
You are completely disregarding the fact that soulkey played amazing. Sure, fantasy didn't do himself justice, but I'd see today's results as "soulkey's v mech genius" rather than "fanta is not s-class".
And this, people, is why fantasy isn't S-class. Yes, it was a group of all his worst MU. That means he only had one MU to practice. And the best of the Zergs was Calm, who's his own inconsistent self.
Indeed, There were no S-class players who dropped out of the MSL round of 32 last time...
Stay out of the PR thread if you don't want to get games spoiled. How the fuck could one discuss how to rank people without talking about the games that have been played?
From my view, the result was inevitable, but it wasn't because "omg Fantasy has to play TvZ" but more like what the situation looked like. It's worth noting that Soulkey is currently 6-1 vs Fantasy lifetime. Soulkey just seems to have Fantasy figured out and so for the second season in a row it's Soulkey who single-handedly knocks Fantasy out of MSL.
I haven't seen the games, but I was not really surprised by the result. Had Fantasy faced Calm or Roro in the first and/or third match, I'm confident he would have escaped the group.
Winning 2-0 in the group of death is pretty big, but playing THAT good and dominating both matches completely without any slip up or moment being behind...
On April 21 2011 21:48 gen.Sun wrote: Flash made so many unforced errors, I don't understand, no more god sense from him?
Well, look at the game he had right before that. Flash is definitely still capable of entering GODMODE, but I guess he has been slipping up a little more often recently.
I wouldn't look to much into the JD vs Flash game. JD could advance from this group purely by playing vs T, where Flash was bound to play at least two different matchups.
Not to take anything from JD, he played amazingly, hopefully they'll meet again in BO5.
On April 21 2011 23:00 L0thar wrote: I wouldn't look to much into the JD vs Flash game. JD could advance from this group purely by playing vs T, where Flash was bound to play at least two different matchups.
Not to take anything from JD, he played amazingly, hopefully they'll meet again in BO5.
That wasn't a complete guarantee. There was a chance of Bisu beating Flash, in which case, JD would have to play vP.
On April 21 2011 23:00 L0thar wrote: I wouldn't look to much into the JD vs Flash game. JD could advance from this group purely by playing vs T, where Flash was bound to play at least two different matchups.
Not to take anything from JD, he played amazingly, hopefully they'll meet again in BO5.
That wasn't a complete guarantee. There was a chance of Bisu beating Flash, in which case, JD would have to play vP.
Which JD could lost and then advance by beating Flash or Sea in final match...
On April 21 2011 23:00 L0thar wrote: I wouldn't look to much into the JD vs Flash game. JD could advance from this group purely by playing vs T, where Flash was bound to play at least two different matchups.
Not to take anything from JD, he played amazingly, hopefully they'll meet again in BO5.
That wasn't a complete guarantee. There was a chance of Bisu beating Flash, in which case, JD would have to play vP.
Which JD could lost and then advance by beating Flash or Sea in final match...
Dante's Peak, and most likely facing Flash in final match. Either way, I'm just glad Jaedong advanced. That group took several years off my life....
Hmm, no Oz or KT games this month. That makes things slightly more difficult. 1 Flash - meh 2 JD - I'd really like to see more games from him, but he's definitely on the way up. 3 Bisu - Quite a few achievements this month, but still needs some refinement. He should've won that last game vs Flash.
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
There's still SPL this month, but no KT vs Oz. There's still SKT vs KT, if that may count for anything.
Hm, not too many games this month. I guess I would have put Bisu at #1 if he would have advanced (2-0 or 2-1) from this group, after sniping JD and Flash in SWL-Playoffs. Technically Jaedong did better than Flash against SKT than Flash (2-1 vs 1-1, both losing to Bisu. Horrible match for Flash though). Coupled with today's result, and more importantly the quality of Jaedongs games (he looked so strong in both games today and also against SKT... Bisu's PvZ is just something else), I think he deserves #1 over Flash this month.
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
Because there are fewer games (OSL, where are thou?), the Power Rank has become more volatile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Jaedong deserves #1 unless he like chokes vs khan and loses a game and an ace game or something. I think his ZvP is still a bit suspect but there's absolutely no reason to say anything besides Jaedong #1 Flash #2 right now for PR's sake. I say this despite thinking Flash is still the better player.
On April 21 2011 23:13 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, no Oz or KT games this month. That makes things slightly more difficult. 1 Flash - meh 2 JD - I'd really like to see more games from him, but he's definitely on the way up. 3 Bisu - Quite a few achievements this month, but still needs some refinement. He should've won that last game vs Flash.
The last game? The last game was just Flash being generally more solid in a long game. Bisu should've won the first game when Flash handed him a massive advantage on a silver platter and he proceeded to give us a Jaehoon from 08 level PvT.
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
Because there are fewer games (OSL, where are thou?), the Power Rank has become more volatile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Yeah, it has become even so volatile, that a 5-time Champion can replace another 5-time champion on the throne. Ridiculous.
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
Because there are fewer games (OSL, where are thou?), the Power Rank has become more volatile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Yeah, it has become even so volatile, that a 5-time Champion can replace another 5-time champion on the throne. Ridiculous.
After Flash trounces JD in yet another final, JD fans will find solace in the May PR. :p
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
Because there are fewer games (OSL, where are thou?), the Power Rank has become more volatile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Yeah, it has become even so volatile, that a 5-time Champion can replace another 5-time champion on the throne. Ridiculous.
The group of death today had 13 starleague golds between them. That is... insane.
Well, I'm not gonna spend any time arguing for Flash at #1 anyway. I love both of them and JD played amazing SC today. I don't mind. It will all be settled for real when they face each other in the final to fight for the Golden Badge and tying Nada anyway.
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
Because there are fewer games (OSL, where are thou?), the Power Rank has become more volatile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Yeah, it has become even so volatile, that a 5-time Champion can replace another 5-time champion on the throne. Ridiculous.
After Flash trounces JD in yet another final, JD fans will find solace in the May PR. :p
I won't. But just because Flash is the best player doesn't mean he needs to be #1 every month or that he is the best every single month. Sometimes other players just perform better. But that doesn't make the PR volatile.
Compared to last year the entire BW scene has been volatile though. Last year it was all Flash #1 and JD #2 all the time. Almost literally. Recently we've seen Stork have a crazy run, Fantasy tearing shit up, Bisu looking unbeatable, both Flash and JD showing weakness... right now though things are going back to normal. :D LeeSang FTW!
1. JD 2. Flash - back in January/February during WL Flash was looking basically unbeatable and the only mark against him was his piss-poor December performance. In March I commented that Flash looked maybe a bit more beatable than before, but he was still the obvious candidate for #1. Right now he's still a strong, solid player, but he was not the best player last month. 3. Bisu - Under other circumstances he could have been #2 but I think that Flash proved that Bisu's win on Aztec was just one game. 4. Fantasy - learn how to overcome Soulkey please. I'll admit that Soulkey is a player with a lot of ability (even if he doesn't always show it), but not so much that he should be 6-1 against you. However, there is no doubt in my mind of Fanta's ability, nor of his hotness. Soulkey stepped up for the win rather than Fanta stepping down.
Edit: Also PR worthy IMO but I'm not going to bother ranking: Stork, Zero (statistics do not do justice to how solid he is right now), Hydra (his MSL gold was not a fluke), Light (with all new and improved TvP!).
And possibly: Mind (currently a bit of a dark horse... producing solid results lately without attracting attention), Leta (a couple months ago on the worst loss streak of his career, but solid play lately, 8-2 in his last 10 and I don't know how he managed to get away with 14cc vs 9hatch ling rush and then AGAIN vs 4pool).
Hard/impossible to rank: Baby has not played at all this month even though he's been so strong lately. Stats only played 1 game (loss to s2 on Zerg haven Icarus). Sea had the bad luck of being in group D.
CBNC: Soulkey: want on rank? Show us more than just 2 good games. FBH: bad luck to face Stork twice.
On April 21 2011 23:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong deserves #1 unless he like chokes vs khan and loses a game and an ace game or something. I think his ZvP is still a bit suspect but there's absolutely no reason to say anything besides Jaedong #1 Flash #2 right now for PR's sake. I say this despite thinking Flash is still the better player.
On April 21 2011 23:13 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, no Oz or KT games this month. That makes things slightly more difficult. 1 Flash - meh 2 JD - I'd really like to see more games from him, but he's definitely on the way up. 3 Bisu - Quite a few achievements this month, but still needs some refinement. He should've won that last game vs Flash.
The last game? The last game was just Flash being generally more solid in a long game. Bisu should've won the first game when Flash handed him a massive advantage on a silver platter and he proceeded to give us a Jaehoon from 08 level PvT.
I think bisu could've won that. He basically was doing fine until that horrible attack at 6, even though he started with a disadvantage.
On April 21 2011 23:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong deserves #1 unless he like chokes vs khan and loses a game and an ace game or something. I think his ZvP is still a bit suspect but there's absolutely no reason to say anything besides Jaedong #1 Flash #2 right now for PR's sake. I say this despite thinking Flash is still the better player.
On April 21 2011 23:13 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, no Oz or KT games this month. That makes things slightly more difficult. 1 Flash - meh 2 JD - I'd really like to see more games from him, but he's definitely on the way up. 3 Bisu - Quite a few achievements this month, but still needs some refinement. He should've won that last game vs Flash.
The last game? The last game was just Flash being generally more solid in a long game. Bisu should've won the first game when Flash handed him a massive advantage on a silver platter and he proceeded to give us a Jaehoon from 08 level PvT.
I think bisu could've won that. He basically was doing fine until that horrible attack at 6, even though he started with a disadvantage.
Yes he "could" have won that game if he didn't make that attack at 6. But he chose to make the attack. And even if he hadn't the game would have been about even. Flash was the better player that game, ergo Flash deserved the win.
Anyway, it's not really relevant to the PR anyway since Bisu's position of #3 is pretty much locked and the debate about Flash vs JD in 1/2 is more of an issue of JD's ZvP. But me speaking, I'd give JD #1 this month.
On April 21 2011 23:23 Holgerius wrote: Is JD guaranteed #1 over Flash though? I wouldn't mind, and he's certainly in a good position, but how safe is he?
Because there are fewer games (OSL, where are thou?), the Power Rank has become more volatile. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Yeah, it has become even so volatile, that a 5-time Champion can replace another 5-time champion on the throne. Ridiculous.
The group of death today had 13 starleague golds between them. That is... insane.
AFAIK the only comparable group in history was NaDa/Oov/July/Clon in IOPS. At the time Nada had 5 golds, Oov had 4, and July had only 1 so far, and in terms of ability definitely comparable to FJB. However on the issue of the 4th man, Clon was never a heavyweight in 1v1 (although he managed to take out Oov in their match -- very ironic because as I recall Oov picked him to be an easy win) and Sea has consistently been a top 5 Terran for about 5 years now.
This MSL's group D was the death group to end all death groups.
On April 22 2011 10:36 gen.Sun wrote: Why is bisu #3 locked? Stork should be three if he beats hydra.
Because he beat Jaedong and Flash causing SKT to win the SWL.
He beat Flash once, on Aztec, followed by losing to Flash twice on maps that are fair for pvt.
Beating Jd once is impressive, of course, but hardly enough to lock in #3 if Stork is able to topple Hydra.
So a map with the great sample size of 2 games is a fair map? Or how about that map where no toss have won in broadcasted games vT and all PvT wins comes from superior P players beating chump B teamers in offliners?
On April 22 2011 10:36 gen.Sun wrote: Why is bisu #3 locked? Stork should be three if he beats hydra.
Because he beat Jaedong and Flash causing SKT to win the SWL.
He beat Flash once, on Aztec, followed by losing to Flash twice on maps that are fair for pvt.
Beating Jd once is impressive, of course, but hardly enough to lock in #3 if Stork is able to topple Hydra.
So a map with the great sample size of 2 games is a fair map? Or how about that map where no toss have won in broadcasted games vT and all PvT wins comes from superior P players beating chump B teamers in offliners?
To be fair, there were only two games played on the map that were relevant in the match-up, this one, and Stork losing to Mind... with 12 nexus getting bunker rushed. So yeah, I can see some favourable feature for t on the map (seems good for vulture harass, easy 4th), but I'm not sure it's really that screwed in Ts favor. And to see how the map really had any influence on the Flash vs Bisu game, where Flash looked beatable, and Bisu made some glaring mistakes. Maybe I fail to see something.
On April 22 2011 10:36 gen.Sun wrote: Why is bisu #3 locked? Stork should be three if he beats hydra.
Because he beat Jaedong and Flash causing SKT to win the SWL.
I don't feel like the WL win was extremely legit, as yesterday showed, Bisu's glaring weakness in pvt is not something you would expect from an S class player.
Taking down hydra in a series would mean a lot more. Also SPL is returning. I hope to come back in a few days and argue for stork #2 if he takes down jaedong.
This is going to sound stupid, but i think the order should go jd bisu flash
both bisu and flash have 3 wins two losses bisu(flash JD sea)(flash flash) flash(bisu bisu s2)(bisu JD) A loss to flash is comparable to a loss to jaedong, so let's ignore those bisu(flash JD sea)(flash ) flash(bisu bisu s2)(bisu ) While I would argue that bisu beating flash is more impressive than flash beating bisu, let’s say that they are equal, and take them out. bisu(JD sea) flash(bisu s2) Two games left, and both of bisu's are more impressive. Flash beat bisu in his historically weak matchup, while JD has no weak MUs. That, and Sea is a better player than S2. This combined that Bisu's wins (final game of playoffs day 2, final game of championship, msl group game) are more important than flash's (a game in the championship (not last one) and 2 from MSL groups) means bisu had a better month, despite losing the head to head.
so JD, then bisu, then flash. Unless bisu drops a game or JD drops two, that’s the way it should be.
Power ranks aren't math equations. If you saw the Bisu v. Flash games, Bisu clearly showed a weakness unlike JD and Flash who look much more scary. I don't think you will find anyone here who thinks Bisu should be above Flash. He is a strong contender for #3 however.
Really you are trying to infer too much from too little. At the end of the day you're faulting Flash for having the same record over only FIVE games while facing a *marginally* easier line-up when the truth is that the only players either person lost to is a member of TaekBaengLeeSsang. I hate to break it to you but Flash has limited control over which opponents he faces... you really can't blame him for shrugging off s2 unless you think he should have just decided not to play as his team's ace in the WL finals...
And while PvT is indeed Bisu's historical weak point it clearly isn't right now; PvP is. Take a look at his recent games against Free and Perfectman, not to mention that lately he can't seem to beat Stork at all, and that he's been out-played in some other games as well.
On April 21 2011 23:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong deserves #1 unless he like chokes vs khan and loses a game and an ace game or something. I think his ZvP is still a bit suspect but there's absolutely no reason to say anything besides Jaedong #1 Flash #2 right now for PR's sake. I say this despite thinking Flash is still the better player.
On April 21 2011 23:13 Lightwip wrote: Hmm, no Oz or KT games this month. That makes things slightly more difficult. 1 Flash - meh 2 JD - I'd really like to see more games from him, but he's definitely on the way up. 3 Bisu - Quite a few achievements this month, but still needs some refinement. He should've won that last game vs Flash.
The last game? The last game was just Flash being generally more solid in a long game. Bisu should've won the first game when Flash handed him a massive advantage on a silver platter and he proceeded to give us a Jaehoon from 08 level PvT.
I think bisu could've won that. He basically was doing fine until that horrible attack at 6, even though he started with a disadvantage.
Yes he "could" have won that game if he didn't make that attack at 6. But he chose to make the attack. And even if he hadn't the game would have been about even. Flash was the better player that game, ergo Flash deserved the win.
Anyway, it's not really relevant to the PR anyway since Bisu's position of #3 is pretty much locked and the debate about Flash vs JD in 1/2 is more of an issue of JD's ZvP. But me speaking, I'd give JD #1 this month.
Agreed on both points, but what I was trying to say is that Flash doesn't look as invincible as before. It wasn't a one-sided game even though Flash started off with a decent advantage. JD's ZvP problems haven't come up for a while. His ZvT has always looked good, though since he was losing to Flash and Light it seemed more like noob-bashing. but he's shown good games against Fantasy and Flash since, so yeah. Whoa, high templar now!
On April 23 2011 00:40 Mortality wrote: Really you are trying to infer too much from too little. At the end of the day you're faulting Flash for having the same record over only FIVE games while facing a *marginally* easier line-up when the truth is that the only players either person lost to is a member of TaekBaengLeeSsang. I hate to break it to you but Flash has limited control over which opponents he faces... you really can't blame him for shrugging off s2 unless you think he should have just decided not to play as his team's ace in the WL finals...
And while PvT is indeed Bisu's historical weak point it clearly isn't right now; PvP is. Take a look at his recent games against Free and Perfectman, not to mention that lately he can't seem to beat Stork at all, and that he's been out-played in some other games as well.
And that is why the PR is sticky. Yes, flash is a better player than bisu. But if the PR was just who is best, Flash should be #1 this month, and every month for the past 2 years. With a bigger sample size; yes, flash would have probably had a better showing overall, but we can only work with what we are given. I don't think FBH is one of the top 10 players, but we can't ignore the record he had last month, and he deserved a spot on the PR. similarly, S2 and/or ssak are not top 10, but they will most likely get a spot next month. Could Baby (a player we can agree is better then those two) control who he played this month (not counting losing his prelim group, which we can't hold against him because it didn't happen this month)? No, but a 0-0 record isn't going to get him on the list.
On April 23 2011 00:40 Mortality wrote: Really you are trying to infer too much from too little. At the end of the day you're faulting Flash for having the same record over only FIVE games while facing a *marginally* easier line-up when the truth is that the only players either person lost to is a member of TaekBaengLeeSsang. I hate to break it to you but Flash has limited control over which opponents he faces... you really can't blame him for shrugging off s2 unless you think he should have just decided not to play as his team's ace in the WL finals...
And while PvT is indeed Bisu's historical weak point it clearly isn't right now; PvP is. Take a look at his recent games against Free and Perfectman, not to mention that lately he can't seem to beat Stork at all, and that he's been out-played in some other games as well.
And that is why the PR is sticky. Yes, flash is a better player than bisu. But if the PR was just who is best, Flash should be #1 this month, and every month for the past 2 years. With a bigger sample size; yes, flash would have probably had a better showing overall, but we can only work with what we are given. I don't think FBH is one of the top 10 players, but we can't ignore the record he had last month, and he deserved a spot on the PR. similarly, S2 and/or ssak are not top 10, but they will most likely get a spot next month. Could Baby (a player we can agree is better then those two) control who he played this month (not counting losing his prelim group, which we can't hold against him because it didn't happen this month)? No, but a 0-0 record isn't going to get him on the list.
It's not just about who is best and if you think for a moment you should see how that can become sticky too: the "better" player might not live up to expectations and then what?
But even if we pretend that plenty of games were played this month -- laugh -- if two players produce comparable results in a given month and one of them has been ahead for the past 4 months + won in head-to-head (2-1) + is more well rounded, then I don't see why he should be ranked lower.
Furthermore, PR is a ranking released monthly, not a ranking that forgets the results of previous months.
If there is a limit to how far we can reach back, where is it? I thought the first of the month made for a great cutoff point, but you seemed to disagree.
sorry if you found the sarcasm offensive. I didn't think it was that bad, but alright then.
edit: come to think of it, I don't think that the power ranking is based on "greatness". If it was, than shouldn't the power rankings just be who won "things" and not just games? This month it would be bisu with cluch playoff wins, then s2 with finals mvp award, then fantasy for day 1 performance with a 3 kill, (possibly hydra because he won an MSL, that wasn't this month, but I'm still confused by how far we can look back into history). Flash getting second in a Ro32 group is far from "greatness".
On April 23 2011 10:08 hacklebeast wrote: If there is a limit to how far we can reach back, where is it? I thought the first of the month made for a great cutoff point, but you seemed to disagree.
sorry if you found the sarcasm offensive. I didn't think it was that bad, but alright then.
edit: come to think of it, I don't think that the power ranking is based on "greatness". If it was, than shouldn't the power rankings just be who won "things" and not just games? This month it would be bisu with cluch playoff wins, then s2 with finals mvp award, then fantasy for day 1 performance with a 3 kill, (possibly hydra because he won an MSL, that wasn't this month, but I'm still confused by how far we can look back into history). Flash getting second in a Ro32 group is far from "greatness".
I do agree nada is the greatest so far.
I'll apologize because I was taking out some frustration on you that you didn't deserve. Lately I feel like this forum has declined a bit with people acting stupidly.
Every writer has there own take on exactly how much data to consider. In my mind there isn't really a limit, but rather a sort of weighting. Data from the past month gets weighted much more heavily and as you go back in time the weighting tapers off rapidly. But I don't personally just consider my perception of skill or the raw results (which may differ from my perception of skill -- remember when JD was 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT? Was it because he sucked? No. It was because his last 10 ZvT at the time were all vs Light and Flash. A player 10-0 vs scrubs has not proven he's better than 3-7 vs two of the greatest TvZers ever.), but also momentum and to some extent "meta" stuff, like how FBH lifted the spirits of Ace, a team that had been on a 16 game losing streak.
Bear in mind that even if you say you are only looking at the past month you aren't. When you think about Flash and Bisu and guys like that you are automatically going to have a bias based on the accomplishments they have accumulated in the past. If a player breaks Flash's tank push you will view it differently than if a player breaks Light's push even if they played an identical game of Starcraft. You will more readily dismiss a Protoss victory over Light since he has a reputation of failure in that match-up. So I actually think it's sort of hypocritical to view only one month's results.
For the past few months, Flash, Jaedong and Bisu have all been looking real strong. Jaedong was struggling a bit if you go further back but has been progressively building momentum. Flash looked stronger a while ago and has been very, very slowly losing momentum, like a faucet that drips a single drop of water only once every hour. Bisu has been a little more sporadic, a little more unpredictable, following up a stretch of suspect game play last month with a complete dismantling of Jaedong (note: the difference between Bisu in March and in April is clear by watching his games against JD... in March he wasn't able to achieve strong aerial dominance and so lacked the scouting information that would have enabled him to block those lurkers; in April his corsair moving shot on Fortress was just breath-taking, but the side of that which the observer can easily forget is that with his corsairs able to buzz around so much he acquires more information, allowing for better choices). Coming into this month I rate Flash as the leader.
For the past 6 months now, the only black mark on Flash's record was the terrible play (by S-class standards) he showed us in December, a large black mark, but a long time ago now. JD deserves the #1 in my opinion because he totally stepped up his game when it was needed. Regarding Flash/Bisu order, there's just not enough there for me to move up Bisu over Flash. Both of them were very, very solid in April, so I'm inclined to keep Flash ahead. As far as Flash being #2 in his Ro32 group, Bisu was #3 from the same group, so treating only #2 as a black mark for Flash would be an even huger blow for Bisu anyhow. But TBH I don't hold that against either because in the history of SC only a small handful of groups have been anywhere near that level. As I pointed out, the only one I can think of was NaDa/Oov/July/Clon from IOPS and Sea is tougher than Clon was by a lot. Just advancing from that group is a demonstration of greatness. We're talking 4 players with talent to be all 4 in the semis, although Sea has a habit of falling short of his potential in individual league.
TL;DR I'm not inclined to move Bisu ahead of Flash unless either Flash well and truly slips up or Bisu manages to overshadow him. The unfortunate reality for Bisu, as I already said, is that Flash proved (in his two matches against Bisu in group Death) that Bisu's victory was just one game.
Flash is better than bisu, agreed. But if the PR is just "who is the best" than we should copy paste ELO. If the PR is a function of accomplishments and time, the we should just copy paste the kespa ranks, because I feel they have a good formula for calculating just that.
I think the PR should be more volatile than those two; embodying the phrase "what have you done for me lately?" I think that it should be the 10 players who showed the most impressive body of work considering win:loss, level of competition, the stage of competition, and the ambiguous "it" factor that players can show when they dominate an opponent.
Working with those constraints, Bisu has the same win ratio, slightly better competition, and won more on bigger stages. I guess it could be argued that bisu didn't "look" as dominant in his wins, but I felt that all of the TBLS games were rather one sided. And that's why I think bisu had a better month, and therefor should be 2nd.
#1 - Jaedong - having stepped up when it mattered the most #2 - Flash - duh, he advanced 2-1 from the G.O.D. #3 - Bisu - for beating both 1 & 2 when it mattered and then lost (he could have won but he didn't) in the other important one.
for the rest of the ranking, I can't really recall much, so I just won't say anything.
On April 23 2011 12:30 hacklebeast wrote: Bad days are understandable
Flash is better than bisu, agreed. But if the PR is just "who is the best" than we should copy paste ELO. If the PR is a function of accomplishments and time, the we should just copy paste the kespa ranks, because I feel they have a good formula for calculating just that.
I think the PR should be more volatile than those two; embodying the phrase "what have you done for me lately?" I think that it should be the 10 players who showed the most impressive body of work considering win:loss, level of competition, the stage of competition, and the ambiguous "it" factor that players can show when they dominate an opponent.
Working with those constraints, Bisu has the same win ratio, slightly better competition, and won more on bigger stages. I guess it could be argued that bisu didn't "look" as dominant in his wins, but I felt that all of the TBLS games were rather one sided. And that's why I think bisu had a better month, and therefor should be 2nd.
Flash went 1-1 in SWL playoffs and 2-1 in death group. Bisu went 2-0 in SWL playoffs and 1-2 in death group, dropping from MSL (again). I hardly see how this shows either player as having truly had a better month.
And if you've been reading what I say month after month, then you should see that there's a great deal of volatility in what I do to begin with. I don't know where you get the idea that I advocate copying ELO and/or KeSPA; I merely believe that if two players have comparable results then the benefit of the doubt should go to the player with the stronger recent history. That player is Flash.
Edit: I believe you that -- aside from any bias you may naturally have just by looking at your tag and race -- you may be judging Bisu's "superior" month based on critical victories for the SWL crown. But the players knew they were in the group of death and put their all into that as well. Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated.
WL finals isn't a bigger stage than any MSL tournament set. It's like the all star games in sports -- a neat game halfway through the regular season before we get to the real deal of the playoffs.
The WL finals would almost always be a lot more important than the Ro32 group-stage IMO, because normally those are just a cakewalk for the top players, simply a small step on the path leading to greater things. But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL.
On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote: The WL finals would almost always be a lot more important than the Ro32 group-stage IMO, because normally those are just a cakewalk for the top players, simply a small step on the path leading to greater things. But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL.
Also look at the games themselves. Bisu's wins in WL clearly looks like a one time strategy. Not legit IMO.
On April 24 2011 00:10 gen.Sun wrote: Also look at the games themselves. Bisu's wins in WL clearly looks like a one time strategy. Not legit IMO.
Bisu's win was very legit. But it's a one-off trick. It's unlikely to work again and it's unlikely that we'll see a constant stream of different tricks. Group D results happen to prove this.
lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote: lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
Beastie, you may believe what you want regarding how the PR should reflect "importance", but then wouldn't it be called the "importance rank" rather than the "power rank"?
On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote: lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
No one is saying trying to compare the WL finals with an MSL group. The real question here is who was the better player this month?
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Okay great, WL playoffs does matter (although I would argue back and say that Bisu's win on Aztec was the product of a very favorable map constraining his opponent into a predictable build which then Oov and the entire SKT coaching staff probably spent days preparing a counter for).
But does it matter for Power Rank? No, because Bisu did not display power in this month. The one game he won, he basically won because of Aztec, and then when the maps were balanced, he rolled over and died TWICE and condemned his own fanbase to watching him crash out of YET ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL LEAGUE LOLOLOL
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
No one says "Bisu can't win this"; people say that it is not likely that Bisu will beat Flash on a 50:50 TvP map. Does that make sense?
The reverse all kill "defines" (this isn't entirely true, but I'll run with it for a sec) SkyHigh because it was a reverse all-kill in the SWL finals. The Flash vs Bisu match wasn't even an ace game. Also, people have noticed that SkyHigh always seems to step up his game in post season events (11-2 record in post season matches). However, what's really defined SkyHigh's career is his TvT. His TvT is the only reason people remember him. The SWL finals are not trivial, but you're way overstating their importance.
As for Bisu out-classing his opponents, he turned around and got out-classed in return by Flash during MSL. And one might be inclined to point out that in SWL Bisu was able to snipe his opponents on the maps of his choosing.
Impressive as he's been, he hasn't surpassed Flash in "hotness." Individual league results cannot be dismissed.
Edit: People with KT tags please stop arguing. I'm seeing some pretty ridiculous shit get spewed out. This is becoming a case of Don't Shoot the Message. To give an example, Fortress is not favorable towards P, it's just a strong map for Bisu in particular. And he didn't win vs Flash on Aztec because of Aztec but because he played a better game of Starcraft that particular game. Jut like how Flash did not beat Bisu because of map balance in MSL but because he played better Starcraft that day. This whole Flash vs Bisu thing is coming down to fanboyism. I don't think I want to bother taking part in this discussion anymore if it's going to continue in this direction.
On April 23 2011 17:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: WL finals isn't a bigger stage than any MSL tournament set.
On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote: But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL.
On April 23 2011 15:30 Mortality wrote: Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated.
Yes people are comparing WL to MSL.
You misinterpreted the last part. It wasn't a matter of players. In terms of generic player X vs generic player Y, Player X was ahead the entire game. None of the games JD Flash or Bisu played this month were close, the winner won by a good margin in all of them was what I was trying to say. Because all of them were one sided, I think that equal amounts of power was shown. And Bisu gets a slight edge because he played better opponents.
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Edit in reference to mortality: Ok, so I should have used "most important achievement" instead of "what defines him". That's fine. The point stands about why WL finals is more inportant than MSL Ro32. And While a reverse all kill isnt as impressive as winning the final game. Flash going 2-1 isn't as impressive as hwasin going 2-0. It still isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see through the minor issues it has.
I didn't dismiss MSL, but back to where I started on page 12, I just think that Bisu's 3-2 is against better opponents and on bigger stages is more impressive than flash's 3-2
On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote: lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
I agree that WL finals is more important but it says less about Bisu's skill when he can wait until Flash and Jaedong have to play on a hard map for their race where Bisu has prepared a specific build to counter them. That he can do because his team is so much stronger than Flash and Jaedong's teams are.
On April 24 2011 08:00 hacklebeast wrote: The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Are you referring to me? Because I never said that. What I did say was that Bisu was able to face Flash (and JD) on the maps of his choosing since Bisu was sent as the sniper.
Edit: The only "better opponent" was facing Sea instead of facing s2. Flash was forced to play s2 because s2 3-killed his team. And Flash rolled him. I don't see how you can hold that against Flash. For a player like Flash who has already proven himself, facing a weaker line-up only really means something if he loses. His one weak opponent he defeated easily.
On April 24 2011 08:00 hacklebeast wrote: The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Are you referring to me? Because I never said that. What I did say was that Bisu was able to face Flash (and JD) on the maps of his choosing since Bisu was sent as the sniper.
no it wasn't in reference to you, that was for romantic's 'although I would argue back and say that Bisu's win on Aztec was the product of a very favorable map constraining his opponent into a predictable build which then Oov and the entire SKT coaching staff probably spent days preparing a counter for"
edit: Yep. Flash had a weaker set of opponents, so he needed to go better than 3-2 to show he was better than bisu. It's not his fault (other than not winning more games in the finals, but i'm ignoring that) but that still isn't a reason to bump him up. Again, baby is a good player, and he couldn't control the fact he went 0-0, but we can't give him a spot because of what he probably would have done.
Baby may get a chance to prove himself in SPL anyway, but personally I would CBNC him if he ended the month 0-0. After all, the reason he didn't play is he failed to make it past offline qualifiers (lost to Dear) in early March.
Hypothetical: Player A wins OSL and MSL in June and has win record over 90% from early April to end of June. In July player A does not play because his team has no games and because he's seeded for individual leagues. On the Aug 1 ranking, player A would not drop off the ranking. Unless someone else has been playing comparably good, player A would retain #1. This is the accepted view of PR, dating back to the 4/30/2007 ranking when Savior retained #3 rank despite going 0-2 over the course of April. And the only reason he dropped from rank #2 to rank #3 is that his replacement was NaDa (who had recently beaten Savior in OGN Masters and went 2-1 during that same month).
Now regarding Flash, you seem to have it backwards. He doesn't need to be bumped up. He is the one coming from on top. Bisu is the one who has to bump up and that's the entire point. You're right that Flash hasn't done anything that particular says he deserves to be "bumped" over Bisu, but conversely Bisu has done nothing to show that he deserves to be bumped over Flash. He may have the chance when SKT1 faces KT in SPL (on the 25th?), but if he does face Flash and he loses, then he cannot be ahead of Flash.
Impressive as he's been, he hasn't surpassed Flash in "hotness." Individual league results cannot be dismissed.
Really now? Where where you to argue how Flash's WL streak was enough to place him as #1 over the actual OSL and MSL champions of the past few months.
Individual league achievement has been downplayed for most of this year simply because it doesn't benefit Flash.
Now we have a bunch of people arguing that passing through the first step (r32, but he only won against Bisu a protoss while getting crushed by a zerg, Jaedong), is a sure fire ticket for him to rank better than someone who not only won against most team ace's to win a championship but did so against more diverse opponents (Jaedong as a Zerg, and Flash as a terran)
On April 24 2011 00:10 gen.Sun wrote: Also look at the games themselves. Bisu's wins in WL clearly looks like a one time strategy. Not legit IMO.
Bisu's win was very legit. But it's a one-off trick. It's unlikely to work again and it's unlikely that we'll see a constant stream of different tricks. Group D results happen to prove this.
The strategy was not a one-time strategy, bisu stated that he already used this strategy before in (dunno how many times) a televised match(es). I think it is just a strategy that has limited use and can be easily countered.
Also, I'm always agreeing with Mortality's points, and I don't get why.
On April 24 2011 09:33 Mortality wrote: Baby may get a chance to prove himself in SPL anyway, but personally I would CBNC him if he ended the month 0-0. After all, the reason he didn't play is he failed to make it past offline qualifiers (lost to Dear) in early March.
Hypothetical: Player A wins OSL and MSL in June and has win record over 90% from early April to end of June. In July player A does not play because his team has no games and because he's seeded for individual leagues. On the Aug 1 ranking, player A would not drop off the ranking. Unless someone else has been playing comparably good, player A would retain #1. This is the accepted view of PR, dating back to the 4/30/2007 ranking when Savior retained #3 rank despite going 0-2 over the course of April. And the only reason he dropped from rank #2 to rank #3 is that his replacement was NaDa (who had recently beaten Savior in OGN Masters and went 2-1 during that same month).
Now regarding Flash, you seem to have it backwards. He doesn't need to be bumped up. He is the one coming from on top. Bisu is the one who has to bump up and that's the entire point. You're right that Flash hasn't done anything that particular says he deserves to be "bumped" over Bisu, but conversely Bisu has done nothing to show that he deserves to be bumped over Flash. He may have the chance when SKT1 faces KT in SPL (on the 25th?), but if he does face Flash and he loses, then he cannot be ahead of Flash.
I see where your coming from. We just have fundamentally different ideas about what the PR should be. Working of of your model, yes flash should be ahead of Bisu. Thinking about it, the PR looks more like what you describe than what I am anyway. I guess I just want it to be different.
On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote: lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
I agree that WL finals is more important but it says less about Bisu's skill when he can wait until Flash and Jaedong have to play on a hard map for their race where Bisu has prepared a specific build to counter them. That he can do because his team is so much stronger than Flash and Jaedong's teams are.
I don't think that applies to Jaedong, since Fortress is Zerg favored vs Protoss. (56% if you count only standard leagues, even more if you remove the 2 games Bisu won.)
Edit: should be even more, not less Zerg favored. lol
Impressive as he's been, he hasn't surpassed Flash in "hotness." Individual league results cannot be dismissed.
Really now? Where where you to argue how Flash's WL streak was enough to place him as #1 over the actual OSL and MSL champions of the past few months.
Individual league achievement has been downplayed for most of this year simply because it doesn't benefit Flash.
Now we have a bunch of people arguing that passing through the first step (r32, but he only won against Bisu a protoss while getting crushed by a zerg, Jaedong), is a sure fire ticket for him to rank better than someone who not only won against most team ace's to win a championship but did so against more diverse opponents (Jaedong as a Zerg, and Flash as a terran)
You must not read these threads often. Individual league advancement has ALWAYS been one of the most significant factors in my own analysis.
I just love how I go from being bitched at by Flash fans to getting bitched at by his anti-fans depending on how he's doing and what kind of talk is going on. There are things I have changed my mind about on in the past, but league advancement is not one of them.
On April 24 2011 04:43 hacklebeast wrote: lol at the kt fans saying that WL finals is less important than an MSL Ro32 group.
Can you list how all of the games went in the last group of death (FBH, hwasin, flash, JD)? Can you list how the games went in the OZ vs CJ WL finals from the same year? A lot more people know that skyhigh reverse all killed than hwasin 2-0 ed the group. That reverse all kill defines skyhigh, no one cares about hwasin. If bisu wins the ace game in the WL playoffs for the next five years, it will be something impressive, and will add to his legacy. No one cares if flash makes it to the Ro16 in the next 5 MSLs.
Bisu outclassed his WL opponents. And he went very standard vs jaedong. They were sound victories, I challenge you to find a point in either of those games where you can say "I think bisu can't win this."
I agree that WL finals is more important but it says less about Bisu's skill when he can wait until Flash and Jaedong have to play on a hard map for their race where Bisu has prepared a specific build to counter them. That he can do because his team is so much stronger than Flash and Jaedong's teams are.
I don't think that applies to Jaedong, since Fortress is Zerg favored vs Protoss. (56% if you count only standard leagues, even more if you remove the 2 games Bisu won.)
Edit: should be even more, not less Zerg favored. lol
Ok, I'll say that differently: Bisu could chose which ever map he felt is more p-favored among four maps (since Jaedong had to RAK).
If WL finals were important it'd have even the slightest bearing on the season. It wasn't important last year for KT and, while cool that skyhigh got that RAK, it wasn't that important then, either. No one really cares who won the WL finals whenever the actual post season gets started. The entire thing is an exhibition within the season itself because WL is really popular and gets good ratings. All credit to Bisu for outcheesing the cheese master one game but there's absolutely no way anyone is satisfied with Bisu dropping out of the Ro32 in yet another MSL.
Winners league is very important. Stop being such a flash fan >< I remember all of you pestering the rest of TL the entire year about how Flash won PL and WL last season.
Winning PL is important. The only thing important about WL for KT last year is that the team finally didn't choke in a "finals." And even that had no bearing on the actual season or the PL finals. It's not like by winning WL finals CJ suddenly became a shoe in or in any way more a favorite to win SPL that year, and that's the WHOLE POINT of the proleague regular season -- to see who wins the proleague post season. WL finals is cool but people put too much stake in it. I even said as much last year when KT won.
On April 24 2011 14:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: Winning PL is important. The only thing important about WL for KT last year is that the team finally didn't choke in a "finals." And even that had no bearing on the actual season or the PL finals. It's not like by winning WL finals CJ suddenly became a shoe in or in any way more a favorite to win SPL that year, and that's the WHOLE POINT of the proleague regular season -- to see who wins the proleague post season. WL finals is cool but people put too much stake in it. I even said as much last year when KT won.
I think it is obvious that the players at least take WL very seriously. And the fans too, as you pointed out.
On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote: But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL.
On April 23 2011 15:30 Mortality wrote: Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated.
Yes people are comparing WL to MSL.
You misinterpreted the last part. It wasn't a matter of players. In terms of generic player X vs generic player Y, Player X was ahead the entire game. None of the games JD Flash or Bisu played this month were close, the winner won by a good margin in all of them was what I was trying to say. Because all of them were one sided, I think that equal amounts of power was shown. And Bisu gets a slight edge because he played better opponents.
Wait what? Are you seriously comparing a 1 gate forward expo snipe build on a 2:1 favored PvT map with TWO wins on even maps? What?
Watch the games between Bisu and Flash this month. One game is a prepared snipe build; the other two are Flash displaying why, again, he has 10x better TvP than Bisu has PvT, and why Bisu's game sense and decisionmaking in PvT are so, so suspect as soon as the game goes past the 10 minute mark.
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Edit in reference to mortality: Ok, so I should have used "most important achievement" instead of "what defines him". That's fine. The point stands about why WL finals is more inportant than MSL Ro32. And While a reverse all kill isnt as impressive as winning the final game. Flash going 2-1 isn't as impressive as hwasin going 2-0. It still isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see through the minor issues it has.
I didn't dismiss MSL, but back to where I started on page 12, I just think that Bisu's 3-2 is against better opponents and on bigger stages is more impressive than flash's 3-2
Bisu's 3-2 against better opponents? Flash beat him twice, eliminating him out of the MSL, and if you read Bisu's interview after SKT vs. ACE, you'll see that Bisu cared about that just as much as winning WL. In fact, Bisu was pissed that Coach Park didn't help him at all for MSL... so pissed that he criticized his own coaches live on Korean TV.
Do you know what that also implies? It means that when Flash and Bisu play without coaching support, Flash beats Bisu. Also, it means that Bisu needs a fucking Oov snipe build to beat flash, so normally he can't win, and even lacks the confidence to do so. When Bisu himself goes into a game vs Flash fearing his TvP, who do you think has more power? Bisu? ROFL.
On April 23 2011 17:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: WL finals isn't a bigger stage than any MSL tournament set.
On April 23 2011 22:19 Holgerius wrote: But this was different. The LR-thread for Group D has more pages than most Starleague finals. This was the ultimate group of death, and I honestly think Flash's 2-0 vs Bisu there means significantly more than Bisu's 1-0 vs Flash in WL.
On April 23 2011 15:30 Mortality wrote: Eead the interviews of Jaedong and Flash. The players practiced as if much more were at stake than just a Ro32 group. To say that Bisu's victory over Flash in SWL -- a single game -- matters more than clawing his way past Flash in SL because it was a "higher stage" ignores the fact that Bisu knew that more was at stake than just advancing from his MSL group: to advance would automatically mean that one of his strongest competitors would be eliminated.
Yes people are comparing WL to MSL.
You misinterpreted the last part. It wasn't a matter of players. In terms of generic player X vs generic player Y, Player X was ahead the entire game. None of the games JD Flash or Bisu played this month were close, the winner won by a good margin in all of them was what I was trying to say. Because all of them were one sided, I think that equal amounts of power was shown. And Bisu gets a slight edge because he played better opponents.
Wait what? Are you seriously comparing a 1 gate forward expo snipe build on a 2:1 favored PvT map with TWO wins on even maps? What?
Watch the games between Bisu and Flash this month. One game is a prepared snipe build; the other two are Flash displaying why, again, he has 10x better TvP than Bisu has PvT, and why Bisu's game sense and decisionmaking in PvT are so, so suspect as soon as the game goes past the 10 minute mark.
The argument "Bisu prepared really hard for his match, and flash didn't, so it shouldn't count" confuses me. Maybe you could elaborate?(not to mention that it conflicts with people saying that everyone practiced more for MSL, so you have to explain why that is wrong as well...)
Edit in reference to mortality: Ok, so I should have used "most important achievement" instead of "what defines him". That's fine. The point stands about why WL finals is more inportant than MSL Ro32. And While a reverse all kill isnt as impressive as winning the final game. Flash going 2-1 isn't as impressive as hwasin going 2-0. It still isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see through the minor issues it has.
I didn't dismiss MSL, but back to where I started on page 12, I just think that Bisu's 3-2 is against better opponents and on bigger stages is more impressive than flash's 3-2
Bisu's 3-2 against better opponents? Flash beat him twice, eliminating him out of the MSL, and if you read Bisu's interview after SKT vs. ACE, you'll see that Bisu cared about that just as much as winning WL. In fact, Bisu was pissed that Coach Park didn't help him at all for MSL... so pissed that he criticized his own coaches live on Korean TV.
Do you know what that also implies? It means that when Flash and Bisu play without coaching support, Flash beats Bisu. Also, it means that Bisu needs a fucking Oov snipe build to beat flash, so normally he can't win, and even lacks the confidence to do so. When Bisu himself goes into a game vs Flash fearing his TvP, who do you think has more power? Bisu? ROFL.
I don't care very much for this Bisu vs Flash debate but please don't twist that interview for your own Bisu hating agenda...
On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote: At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1. Right? Right?
When I first posted my top 3 order I didn't realize that there would actually be a number of PL games to be played. Technically JD could drop if he flubs it hard. Unlikely, but possible nonetheless.
Edit: And apparentl JD lost vs Great but I don't know the details...
On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote: At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1. Right? Right?
When I first posted my top 3 order I didn't realize that there would actually be a number of PL games to be played. Technically JD could drop if he flubs it hard. Unlikely, but possible nonetheless.
Edit: And apparentl JD lost vs Great but I don't know the details...
On April 24 2011 14:00 flamewheel wrote: At least you guys agree that Jaedong should be #1. Right? Right?
Edit: And apparentl JD lost vs Great but I don't know the details...
JD 9pool (lair first) vs 12hatch on big 4 player map, Overlord scouts wrong, Greats Overlord scouts an unexpected pattern for JD so he doesn't see it in time (is explained in th LR thread), lings run to the wrong base, game over.
Would have been way too easy if JD just kept on winning this month
JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
Why should a specific race be exempt from their own mirror matchup? A 9pool vs 12 hatch win would be argued for his ranking had he won it but not when he loses?
On April 22 2011 03:32 Mortality wrote: 1. JD 2. Flash - back in January/February during WL Flash was looking basically unbeatable and the only mark against him was his piss-poor December performance. In March I commented that Flash looked maybe a bit more beatable than before, but he was still the obvious candidate for #1. Right now he's still a strong, solid player, but he was not the best player last month. 3. Bisu - Under other circumstances he could have been #2 but I think that Flash proved that Bisu's win on Aztec was just one game. 4. Fantasy - learn how to overcome Soulkey please. I'll admit that Soulkey is a player with a lot of ability (even if he doesn't always show it), but not so much that he should be 6-1 against you. However, there is no doubt in my mind of Fanta's ability, nor of his hotness. Soulkey stepped up for the win rather than Fanta stepping down.
Edit: Also PR worthy IMO but I'm not going to bother ranking: Stork, Zero (statistics do not do justice to how solid he is right now), Hydra (his MSL gold was not a fluke), Light (with all new and improved TvP!).
And possibly: Mind (currently a bit of a dark horse... producing solid results lately without attracting attention), Leta (a couple months ago on the worst loss streak of his career, but solid play lately, 8-2 in his last 10 and I don't know how he managed to get away with 14cc vs 9hatch ling rush and then AGAIN vs 4pool).
Hard/impossible to rank: Baby has not played at all this month even though he's been so strong lately. Stats only played 1 game (loss to s2 on Zerg haven Icarus). Sea had the bad luck of being in group D.
CBNC: Soulkey: want on rank? Show us more than just 2 good games. FBH: bad luck to face Stork twice.
Glad I called Mind. Wow the way he man handled Classic. CBNC might be too low for Soulkey...
On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
I think JD has lost every single 9pool he has done in PL this year. Clearly he hasn't learned anything and this does reflect negatively on him. He got super unlucky in this game but he just shouldn't have done a 9pool in the first place. I'd rather he retake #1 with brilliant play all around than with Bisu and Flash failing harder. But I guess if Bisu and Flash lose to random zergs too in their PL games...
On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
I think JD has lost every single 9pool he has done in PL this year. Clearly he hasn't learned anything and this does reflect negatively on him. He got super unlucky in this game but he just shouldn't have done a 9pool in the first place. I'd rather he retake #1 with brilliant play all around than with Bisu and Flash failing harder. But I guess if Bisu and Flash lose to random zergs too in their PL games...
It's actually something that's been puzzling me this season. I've been wondering why Jaedong has been going 9pool so often nowadays, especially since it seems like it doesn't work that well anymore. Anyone have a theory as to why he's been going 9 pool all the time? Last season he had a period where he kept going 12 hatch.
On April 24 2011 15:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: JD shouldn't drop for losing that game. The only way he's getting passed up is if Bisu or Flash do something amazing in Kt vs SKT, not for losing a bum ZvZ.
Why should a specific race be exempt from their own mirror matchup? A 9pool vs 12 hatch win would be argued for his ranking had he won it but not when he loses?
He's not exempt, but I'd say the same for Flash or Bisu losing a "meh" game if they were the clear #1. I don't think that loss was bad enough to take away his #1 spot.
This month PR is tough to write. I guess it will depend on KT vs SKT whether Bisu or JD will be #1.
All three players had a good month and all three players had some loses.
Bisu had two loses both against Flash (but also wins against Flash and JD in SWL PO and 2-0ed in PL yesterday)
JD has two loses this month, one against great and another against Bisu (but an extreme dominant win against Flash and he finished group D with 2-0...)
Flash had two loses this month, on against Bisu and another against JD.
All three players had games where we have to gave credit to them. I think if Bisu pulls out the win for SKT against KT he deserves to be #1, since JD has done "nothing" this month but beating Flash and Sea once. If Bisu loses, then it is different, then Bisu does not deserves the #1 since Flash clearly shows who's the boss and if they don't face each other and Bisu loses to some other players, then we can start another discussion since JD lost too great and it does not seem relevant at all. So i would rank
if Bisu pulls out the win for SKT
1. B 2. J 3. F
if he's not and Flash wins over Bisu
1. J 2. F 3. B
if he's not and losing to another player but Flash
We are maybe interpreting the games in the group of Death differently, but I feel that there is no way Bisu can be over Flash. Yes Bisu had more success this month - probably - because he won very important games in winner's league. But he is not 'hotter' than Flash and I think every one would bet on Flash to win if they played now. It looked like Flash was the far superior player of the two in group D: Bisu got a good advantage in both games (in the first game more or less for free) and then Flash just won by playing a lot better than Bisu, I feel. Thats why I think the order should be Jaedong-Flash-Bisu. If Bisu has to be ranked higher it would be Flash-Bisu-Jaedong, but I feel that would be incorrect because Jaedong is really looking hot right now in my oppinion: I don't even remember last time some one beat Flash as dominantly as Jaedong did this month, it has probably not happenend since the Power outage MSL.
That being said, Bisu could show that he just had a bad day I guess when SKT plays KT tomorrow.
The last time a zerg did it was Effort in that no lurker game. The last time someone dominated Flash was Baby vs Flash where baby did that crazy proxy fac play.
Why do people keep on saying Bisu had an advantage in the last game of the MSL group? He was at a disadvantage from the very beginning when Flash got away with a Rax-CC, and got even further behind when Flash got his quick 3rd uncontested and fell far behind when he started losing probes to vults. That game wasnt really close, even tho it might have looked that way after Bisus first 2 great pushbreaks, but the fact is Flash always had a shitload of tanks left when the stasis finished with superior upgrades + a map with easy access to more easily defend able expos. Bisu could obviously have had a chance if he didnt lose all his army at 6, but the game was in Flashs favor even if he hadnt lost it all.
TTT is a reasonable dude, but he's way off base here. There's absolutely no way that WL finals aren't important. I'd say that in terms of how much the players wanted to win it, it counts as least as much as the group of death.
Of course, none of this changes that Flash is clearly over Bisu for this month bar some catastrophe in KT vs. SKT.
On April 25 2011 00:09 Oystein wrote: Why do people keep on saying Bisu had an advantage in the last game of the MSL group? He was at a disadvantage from the very beginning when Flash got away with a Rax-CC, and got even further behind when Flash got his quick 3rd uncontested and fell far behind when he started losing probes to vults. That game wasnt really close, even tho it might have looked that way after Bisus first 2 great pushbreaks, but the fact is Flash always had a shitload of tanks left when the stasis finished with superior upgrades + a map with easy access to more easily defend able expos. Bisu could obviously have had a chance if he didnt lose all his army at 6, but the game was in Flashs favor even if he hadnt lost it all.
You have a point about the second game they played, but I felt that Bisu was in a good lead when he beat Flash's first push and killed like half of his tanks.
On April 25 2011 00:25 Tianx wrote: TTT is a reasonable dude, but he's way off base here. There's absolutely no way that WL finals aren't important. I'd say that in terms of how much the players wanted to win it, it counts as least as much as the group of death.
Of course, none of this changes that Flash is clearly over Bisu for this month bar some catastrophe in KT vs. SKT.
I guarantee you every single player in that group of death would want an MSL over a WL victory. The same can't be said for PL finals but, while I'm absolutely sure players train hard and really do want to win WL, MSL is going to be more important.
There were tons of little PL exhibition matches -- this isn't the first coming of the winner's format -- in the past that I'm sure players trained hard for and really wanted to win, but they don't have the same longevity that PL finals or individual league titles have maintained for quite awhile, and therefore don't matter as much.
While it's fair to say that it's not an MSL final and is just the Ro32, that's usually because Ro32 groups are much less challenging usually so it's not as big a problem to shirk practicing for it, that clearly wasn't the case in group D this year. I'm just saying this as a sort of experience that these mid-season proleague "titles" have never been that memorable or important, but pretty much every single MSL champion has been, even if they're remembered less than fondly. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on this, but if I could trade Flash or Statas getting to the Ro16 in the MSL or KT winning WL finals? I'd pick the Ro16 everytime because the WL finals aren't the real deal, whereas the MSL is.
So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
So you don't care about Skyhigh> Oz or the WL finals last year? Willing WL/PL finals is definitely something to care about. Not to mention that's what you get paid for as a progamer. Besides, advancing from a group of death doesn't mean you won the MSL. Winning the WL finals DOES mean you won something though.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
To be fair, if neither Jaedong or Flash wins this MSL people will not care about the results of this group in a few years. Winning the SWL will be remembered.
edit : however if any of them win it will obviously make the win sweater and more memorable.
Edit2 : not saying bisu should be ranked higher than flash, but people are downplaying the importance of wl, especially for skt since it was the only throphy they lacked
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
So you don't care about Skyhigh> Oz or the WL finals last year? Willing WL/PL finals is definitely something to care about. Not to mention that's what you get paid for as a progamer. Besides, advancing from a group of death doesn't mean you won the MSL. Winning the WL finals DOES mean you won something though.
No, atleast not as much as OSL, MSL, or PL finals. As you can see absolutely nothing has come of Skyhigh RAKing a bad team -- I bet the vast majority of people here can't even name the two nobody protosses that Oz threw at him before the final game, or the maps, or anything because it wasn't that big a deal. It was a cool moment but it meant nothing in the course of the actual proleague. I already said how little it mattered to me that KT won last year -- the only important thing was winning the whole she-bang (and stopping SKT).
I'm not saying I don't care about SWL finals, I just care about MSL more and when the calibre of the players are the same I put MSL> Non-pertinent SWL games. It's not like Winner's League is an entirely different season from the rest of PL or the games wouldn't count to overall record. It's a micro-playoffs with far, far less games to test merit that don't affect the outcome of the actual season. The only league it's worth more than is the STX Master's cup which is just a mockery anyhow.
If we ignore the context and just look at the actual games played I'd say Flash showed during the three games he played head to head vs Bisu this month that he is the superior player. I'd definitely favour Flash, by a quite wide margin, if they were to play a Bo5 right now.
But if you happen to think the WL final means significantly more than the ultimate group of death (something I do not agree with), then I can definitely see why you'd want Bisu over Flash. It really comes down to how you view the PR, what you prioritize. There is no well defined equation to it, we all have our own subjective take on it and I suspect most of us make slight subconscious deviations over time due to our bias.
Totally agree that flash should beat bisu in a BoX. Looking only at head to head, then yes, flash should be ahead. But Bisu>JD and JD> flash can not be overlooked. And I think that once that is factored in bisu's 2-2 is equal to flash's. Then you look at their final games to see bisu beat sea and flash beat s2. Because sea is better than s2 bisu oh-so barely had a better month (not factoring in the 2-0 vs ACE, which matteres little in comparison).
Given what happened this weeked, I would even start to argue that Bisu's 5-2 is more impresive that JD's 4-2.
It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
I think that the top 3 is definitely TaekLeessang but the order of them SOLELY determines on tomorow's match and the MSL at the 28 and the 30 of April but Imo, I would put Jaedong first(I am a little biased toward my race, yes) , then Flash, then Bisu, then that Neo.GBonjwa dude guy. I would put then Mind because he is playing awesome StarCraft these days.
On April 25 2011 06:24 hacklebeast wrote: Totally agree that flash should beat bisu in a BoX. Looking only at head to head, then yes, flash should be ahead.
Great, we agree.
But Bisu>JD and JD> flash can not be overlooked.
Really? You said yourself that Flash will beat anyone in a Bo5. How is JD>Flash then?
And I think that once that is factored in bisu's 2-2 is equal to flash's. Then you look at their final games to see bisu beat sea and flash beat s2. Because sea is better than s2 bisu oh-so barely had a better month (not factoring in the 2-0 vs ACE, which matteres little in comparison).
Because your Bisu>JD>Flash>Bisu reasoning isn't true (because Flash is not necessarily < JD, and Bisu is also not necessarily > JD--you need to prove that point rather than just stating it) then your subsequent reasoning is irrelevant and Bisu's 2-2 is definitely not equal to Flash's.
Given what happened this weeked, I would even start to argue that Bisu's 5-2 is more impresive that JD's 4-2.
Rofl, I'll leave it to Quasar to argue against this
According to Flash's interview he wasn't in good shape lately. And actually his games in group D was so-so. Bisu failed to grasp the MSL 16 slot only due to his total lack of PvT game-sense. I think SKT vs KT can shed more light but personally I don't see how Bisu can be placed over Flash. Bisu is S-class but always lacking something. My chart: JD Flash SoulKey Bisu
On April 25 2011 07:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
This post is just ridiculous. Sending zealots is just about as much a cheese as 2 fac.
On April 25 2011 08:21 Yodo wrote: According to Flash's interview he wasn't in good shape lately. And actually his games in group D was so-so. Bisu failed to grasp the MSL 16 slot only due to his total lack of PvT game-sense. I think SKT vs KT can shed more light but personally I don't see how Bisu can be placed over Flash. Bisu is S-class but always lacking something. My chart: JD Flash SoulKey Bisu
Bisu's winrate over his last 25 PvT's: 77%.
Flash's winrate over his las 25 TvP's: 77%.
Im not saying that Bisu is on par with Flash's game-sense in the matchup because it simply isnt true, but statistic-wise, keep in mind that this 77% winrate comes also from the best TvP'ers in the scene (excluding fantasy), you'll have a tough time arguing that Bisu was a total lack of game sense in the matcup.
Aaaannnd I know someone will argue about Bisu not facing Fantasy and yada yada yada he's one of the best TvP'ers but on that note, Flash hasnt played Stats and by the games he showed last month he has a fierce PvT when he is on his game.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
So you don't care about Skyhigh> Oz or the WL finals last year?
Ehem. If WL finals really are as much more important than MSL death group as people are saying... shouldn't we remember that SkyHigh's RAK was two years ago? Just saying.
Anyway, this discussion is getting silly now. Hopefully tonight we will see Flash vs Bisu and the matter will be settled.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
So you don't care about Skyhigh> Oz or the WL finals last year?
Ehem. If WL finals really are as much more important than MSL death group as people are saying... shouldn't we remember that SkyHigh's RAK was two years ago? Just saying.
What does that have to do with anything though? Yes it was two years ago, and we remember it. No one is saying that it matters currently.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
So you don't care about Skyhigh> Oz or the WL finals last year?
Ehem. If WL finals really are as much more important than MSL death group as people are saying... shouldn't we remember that SkyHigh's RAK was two years ago? Just saying.
What does that have to do with anything though? Yes it was two years ago, and we remember it. No one is saying that it matters currently.
So you're saying that SkyHigh RAK WL final is the only worth remembering, screw the year that he did that?
On April 25 2011 08:21 Yodo wrote: According to Flash's interview he wasn't in good shape lately. And actually his games in group D was so-so. Bisu failed to grasp the MSL 16 slot only due to his total lack of PvT game-sense. I think SKT vs KT can shed more light but personally I don't see how Bisu can be placed over Flash. Bisu is S-class but always lacking something. My chart: JD Flash SoulKey Bisu
Bisu's winrate over his last 25 PvT's: 77%.
Flash's winrate over his las 25 TvP's: 77%.
Im not saying that Bisu is on par with Flash's game-sense in the matchup because it simply isnt true, but statistic-wise, keep in mind that this 77% winrate comes also from the best TvP'ers in the scene (excluding fantasy), you'll have a tough time arguing that Bisu was a total lack of game sense in the matcup.
Aaaannnd I know someone will argue about Bisu not facing Fantasy and yada yada yada he's one of the best TvP'ers but on that note, Flash hasnt played Stats and by the games he showed last month he has a fierce PvT when he is on his game.
Personally (and correct me if I'm wrong) but Fantasy and Flash are the only two Terrans who are actually good against Protoss. Hiya (10-4, loss to Paralyze and dropped a game vs Pusan),and Bogus (6-3, losses to Jaehoon and... dropped a game to ROCK?) are also pretty good, but the next tier consists of Sea (9-8 this year, losses to M18M, Grape, and Dear), Baby (5-6 this year including 0-2 to Dear in MST prelims), Leta (4-3, losses to Perfectman, Flying, Grape)... hardly awe-inspiring. They're all dropping games to these pretty good but definitely inexperienced P, and only Hiya and Bogus are > 2100 TvP ELO.
Meanwhile there are 8 Protoss with > 2100 PvT ELO, and random P's are beating top T's (Tyson vs Flash? Obviously Tyson played great, but... that's something that just shouldn't happen...)
Bisu's PvT has clearly been strong, but his strength is in harass and multitask, not game sense, and it's his strengths that have been winning him games.
On April 25 2011 02:14 hacklebeast wrote: So that means 1st on the PR should be the winner of the pusan qualifiers. The OSL is more important than WL, and more important than the MSL even, so that should carry more weight. And they won so many more games than flash or JD, that it was probably harder in the end. They have ONLY been preparing for those qualifiers with no team league or MSL.
yea...
Hey looks it's a completely extreme view of what I was saying!
It's the MSL AND Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Sea, compared to WL with Flash Jaedong some hite players etc. The quality of opponents was similar and the only difference is what league it was in, I'll take the one people care about in a few years.
So you don't care about Skyhigh> Oz or the WL finals last year?
Ehem. If WL finals really are as much more important than MSL death group as people are saying... shouldn't we remember that SkyHigh's RAK was two years ago? Just saying.
What does that have to do with anything though? Yes it was two years ago, and we remember it. No one is saying that it matters currently.
So you're saying that SkyHigh RAK WL final is the only worth remembering, screw the year that he did that?
You're really putting words in my mouth. You do remember that that happened though, right? Because it's pretty damn important.
On April 25 2011 07:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
This post is just ridiculous. Sending zealots is just about as much a cheese as 2 fac.
2fac is a cheese if you all in with it, mate. Cheeses aren't bad but Bisu is clearly not better than Flash.
On April 25 2011 14:12 ]343[ wrote:Personally (and correct me if I'm wrong) but Fantasy and Flash are the only two Terrans who are actually good against Protoss
Players with more than 33 wins against Protoss, and their lifetime winning percentage:
Only the top 20, to the best of my knowledge. So yeah. I think your impression that there are few Terrans who are truly good (let alone having a winning percentage) against Protoss are few and far between.
The same thing is true in regards other historically disadvantageous match-ups; for Protoss vs Zerg (Bisu has 70% - after that comes Stork, free, Kal, and Movie with about 56% apiece) and for Zerg vs Terran (Jaedong has 63%, Yarnc had 60%, EffOrt, Yellow (obvious suffers some due to playing well past his peak and being compared to other Zerg players still mostly in their prime), Savior, and Zero had or have 55%.)
On April 25 2011 07:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
This post is just ridiculous. Sending zealots is just about as much a cheese as 2 fac.
2fac is a cheese if you all in with it, mate. Cheeses aren't bad but Bisu is clearly not better than Flash.
Bisu certainly all-ined with zealots, didn't he? That's why he didn't expand after his aggression.
On April 25 2011 07:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
This post is just ridiculous. Sending zealots is just about as much a cheese as 2 fac.
2fac is a cheese if you all in with it, mate. Cheeses aren't bad but Bisu is clearly not better than Flash.
Bisu certainly all-ined with zealots, didn't he? That's why he didn't expand after his aggression.
haha I remember some one calling Jaedong's win over Bisu with lurkers a cheese.
On March 30 2011 10:54 Lightwip wrote: At this point, Fantasy should go way up, and Jaedong really belongs somewhere in the middle. If you watch him, you can still see he's not quite there. His "wins against top players" fail to take into account that a few of them were with aggression, not management.
I guess now that Bisu won like that aggression counts as much as management games. Your double standards are... obvious.
But yeah: it is as ridicules in a way to call bisu's attack cheese as to say that Jaedong cheesed Bisu. But still Bisu's win in that game was not as impressive as Flash's win in any of the two rematches for several reasons: in the two other games Flash easily won after a big disadvantage (atleast in the first game) where he showed that he is miles ahead of Bisu in his decision making and his understanding of the match up. The second reason is that it is A LOT easier when you get to pick the map where you play your opponent. Bisu chosed a map where protoss is strong and where he had a very specific build prepared, he only had to beat Flash while flash had to beat SKT.
On April 25 2011 07:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
This post is just ridiculous. Sending zealots is just about as much a cheese as 2 fac.
2fac is a cheese if you all in with it, mate. Cheeses aren't bad but Bisu is clearly not better than Flash.
Bisu certainly all-ined with zealots, didn't he? That's why he didn't expand after his aggression.
You're the guy who, when a terran bunkerrushes a zerg, kills the expansion and then expands after it and doesn't think it's cheese. You can expand after a cheese because the cheese gives you such an overwhelming advantage that you can't stop it
On April 25 2011 07:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'd be dumb to put Bisu over Flash after he got manhandled twice in a row. A good cheese is a good cheese but you can't honestly say Flash didn't prove he was the clearly superior player.
This post is just ridiculous. Sending zealots is just about as much a cheese as 2 fac.
2fac is a cheese if you all in with it, mate. Cheeses aren't bad but Bisu is clearly not better than Flash.
Bisu certainly all-ined with zealots, didn't he? That's why he didn't expand after his aggression.
You're the guy who, when a terran bunkerrushes a zerg, kills the expansion and then expands after it and doesn't think it's cheese. You can expand after a cheese because the cheese gives you such an overwhelming advantage that you can't stop it
Depends.... terran scouts close position 12 hatch? I don't call that cheese.
Well, I haven't seen the games from last night, but I think there is one now.
However, if we're waiting until May 7, then the jury is out completely given that we will see 4+ games from Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu in that time so a lot can change...
Actually, I think it may be for the better to wait since most of this month was off season. If rankings went up on May 1, there would be some players worth mentioning on PR/CBNC with only 2-3 games under the belt.
On April 26 2011 08:18 Evs wrote: hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
Well, if Bisu is really better then more time will only help his case to be ranked over Flash.
Anyway it's far from the first time the PR isn't released on time, don't be stupid.
@Cpadolf: What's so stupid about my remark anyway? All I did was call out on the PR being made to cover more than a month. Do read before you comment.
And yes. previous PR rankings can definitely change if you add the 1st week of the following month. With changes not favorable for those on top some of the time.
On April 25 2011 21:03 flamewheel wrote: In before people start bringing up Flash-BeSt in the Flash-Bisu argument.
Also, I kind of have finals next week. I might delay Power Rank until the 7th of May, when I'm free of purgatory.
I don't see how it's irrelevant. If Flash loses to BeSt (who has awesome PvT in principle but has been slumping hard) but Bisu beats, say, Sea or Stork or something, doesn't that say something about where they are relatively?
On April 26 2011 09:37 Evs wrote: @Cpadolf: What's so stupid about my remark anyway? All I did was call out on the PR being made to cover more than a month. Do read before you comment.
And yes. previous PR rankings can definitely change if you add the 1st week of the following month. With changes not favorable for those on top some of the time.
Would you stop acting like a jerk to forum veterans? Flamewheel has been doing an excellent job and wants to postpone a week so he can take final exams. Don't be so arrogant as to think that your own forum ego is worth more than his real life commitments. Least of all when you only have 150 posts under your belt and CLEARLY have not been reading these threads for very long given the nature of some of your comments. Just so you know, I reported you for violating TL commandment #6. I think you've been pushing the line throughout this thread, but this last post takes the cake.
On April 26 2011 08:18 Evs wrote: hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
Seriously please read all of the posts. the person writing this is delaying it because he has more important things to do (school)
On April 26 2011 09:37 Evs wrote: @Cpadolf: What's so stupid about my remark anyway? All I did was call out on the PR being made to cover more than a month. Do read before you comment.
And yes. previous PR rankings can definitely change if you add the 1st week of the following month. With changes not favorable for those on top some of the time.
Would you stop acting like a jerk to forum veterans? Flamewheel has been doing an excellent job and wants to postpone a week so he can take final exams. Don't be so arrogant as to think that your own forum ego is worth more than his real life commitments. Least of all when you only have 150 posts under your belt and CLEARLY have not been reading these threads for very long given the nature of some of your comments. Just so you know, I reported you for violating TL commandment #6. I think you've been pushing the line throughout this thread, but this last post takes the cake.
Sigh. A jerk huh? All I did was voice my opinion that I don't like how a PR might be moved to cover more than one month. I never said he should forsake his real life commitments to give it out on the 1st of next month.
I understand how you value post counts to reflect authority here but trying to negate my arguments by calling me names instead of refuting me on my claims is imo a worse post than you accuse me of
On April 26 2011 08:18 Evs wrote: hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
In which you showed contempt for the writer and PR, though I took it as a sarcastic statement and had a little laugh out of it.
I'm not even going to talk or argue about the next month's top 3 ranks since it's utterly pointless and the writer is the one who makes the ultimate decision anyway. But I wanna make a possible mention of the lesser known players for next month.
The first player it comes to my mind is s2 from SKT. Seeing his performance in WL finals (3 kills, from KT nonetheless), showing a somewhat good attempt performance against Flash and even before that such as sniping Jaedong, and other zerg players relatively with ease. As well as his even more recent performances of taking down players. I'm not saying he should be suitable in the top 10 but an honorable mention I think is good, maybe even rank 9 or 10. Afterall, he was crowned MVP for WL, his first real award. I'm surprised no one mentioned him with everyone taking mostly about the top 3.
Secondly, I have to say Hyuk. Not for his performances in the games itself but the "behind-the-scenes" situations of powering various players in SKT, including the aces like Bisu. Even on recent interviews, you hear often SKT players mentioning how they couldn't do this or that if it wasn't for Hyuk. Seriously, how often don't you hear that nowadays? You gotta wonder what he really does to make the players mention him every single freaking time but nonetheless, it seems kinda like he's the second Oov or the zerg version of it. Plus he's in MSL ro16, beating Great in a very convincing fashion. He seems to do well always on individual leagues and this time, he has proven him surviving a group what little people thought Hyuk advancing. He pulled a good fight with Leta, made a convincing victory against a terran in loser's match and then outright took out Great. We have to wait and see how he fare against Calm, but if he does happen to beat Calm and move onto Ro8, I think that deserves a spot in the lower tier of PR, like rank 7-10. Or at least honorable mentions.
Not being bias or showing my fanboyism here for SKT players but you gotta consider the facts I displayed and see if you agree with me with these two players. If you know the ace match is s2 vs JD, would you 100%, vote for JD? 50%? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised some people putting down s2 after his micro display in games. And if you know Hyuk is behind that player back, will you not think there's going to be some sort of special build or upgrade or increase of skill of the player?
s2 maybe, hyuk... just no. especially when soulkey, hydra, movie, baby, stork, mind, calm, zero, leta, sea, fantasy, and even grape, ggaemo, and fbh are in contention (or questionably so, but they're closer than hyuk is!) hyuk might be a pr contender if by some miracle he makes semis, but even if he beats calm, ... no.
as for lower ranks: everyone's seen soulkey's ridiculous queen builds, and should definitely get a mid or low spot depending on the rest of the month. leta and fantasy are scary but lose a bit too much. mind is perhaps returning to form. stork is just lolling around. sea is solid but was owned in group D as expected. calm continues to fly under the radar and make his like 5th consecutive MSL ro16 (probably wrong about this but w/e.) zero can beat anyone and lose to anyone. grape and is cool but untested. ggaemo and fbh are legitimate threats on ACE.
movie, s2, and baby have been hot in PL but out of MSL.
On April 26 2011 08:18 Evs wrote: hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
In which you showed contempt for the writer and PR, though I took it as a sarcastic statement and had a little laugh out of it.
A witty one-liner here or there is fine, but when every single post is snarky and antagonistic then it's just down-right disrespectful.
On April 26 2011 12:13 bearbuddy wrote: I'm pretty sure they mean this:
On April 26 2011 08:18 Evs wrote: hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
In which you showed contempt for the writer and PR, though I took it as a sarcastic statement and had a little laugh out of it.
I won't deny that I have been critical of how the PR ranking has been made in this thread. My wording for the post above could have been better but I won't change it now since it is being used against me.
Just to be clear of my intent behind that post:
I don't know whether the PR writer will decide to include next week as part of the coming month's PR. After FW posted of the delay Mortality insinuated that "a lot more can happen" in that extra week to change the rankings. I knew that what he said was true because past PRs can be heavily influenced by the last few games of the month.
I cited Flash because he benefits from this the most: his current WL for the month is 0-2, with the last loss coming from a slumping Best (Yes, Best played amazing but to be the first player beaten by someone who had that loss streak is a black mark on your record.)
I "laughed" at that post because the already long debate for the top 3 ranks will be extended for a week because of the delay. I found the timing of the writer needing to take a break funny because it leaves a lot of PR followers hanging.
I have issues with the criteria for ranking but I have no problem with a writer for prioritizing his real life commitments. I am sure that when he gets back to writing there will be more arguments to muddle the water by then. Most of these will be in that extra week and I feel that that is what will eventually happen in the next PR.
TLDR: I do not hold blame or contempt for the writer when I made that post. I was just making a comment on how even fortune (chance, luck) is on Flash's side because he can still aim higher for the PR with this combination of events.
@Mortality: I do sound antagonistic but it is mostly from my disagreement with the ranking process. Constantly disagreeing with someone's ideas does not equate to disrespect in my book so I guess we are at odds here.
You can defend yourself all you want, your initial statement basically implies that the PR is pushed back to give Flash a chance to prove himself and get a better ranking. I don't see any way to interprete it any other way. If you were making a joke, it doesn't shine through:
hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
The statement is a) offensive and b) ridiculous, given that Flamewheel is probably one of the people on this board who would love to see Jaedong at #1 again the most.
@Malinor: You got it right. I did mean that the PR was gonna get pushed back and it might give a chance for Flash to prove himself. I didn't say I blame the writer for things he has no control of like real life obligations though. The situation was funny to me because the debate will enter a new twist because of unforseen factors.
This is the last I'll reply regarding this matter. I already explained the reasoning behind my message before and how I didn't mean to offend any person for it. I rest my case with this. I can hardly convince you with your interpretation of my sentences even when I'm the one who made them .
Postponing your post of the PR to May 7th is quite alright, Flamewheel.
However, you must make your decision now whether or not to count the results of May 1st through May 7th. For the sake of transparency and lack of bias, you should do this.
Consider this hypothetical situation: You are biased towards Bisu (I know you are not) and he performs well in the first week of May and Flash does not and so you justify this to place him above Flash. OR... Bisu performs terribly and Flash performs astonishingly, but you say "Guys I cut it off at April 30th, and the WL finals just barely edge out the MSL Ro32 so Bisu gets it, sorry I can't count May".
Now this bias can work with any player really, and while I know you try your most to be unbiased, you never know if at a subconscious level you will make a decision like this.
Please take my advice into consideration and publicly make your decision soon. Thank you.
On April 27 2011 08:36 Crisium wrote: Postponing your post of the PR to May 7th is quite alright, Flamewheel.
However, you must make your decision now whether or not to count the results of May 1st through May 7th. For the sake of transparency and lack of bias, you should do this.
Consider this hypothetical situation: You are biased towards Bisu (I know you are not) and he performs well in the first week of May and Flash does not and so you justify this to place him above Flash. OR... Bisu performs terribly and Flash performs astonishingly, but you say "Guys I cut it off at April 30th, and the WL finals just barely edge out the MSL Ro32 so Bisu gets it, sorry I can't count May".
Now this bias can work with any player really, and while I know you try your most to be unbiased, you never know if at a subconscious level you will make a decision like this.
Please take my advice into consideration and publicly make your decision soon. Thank you.
I don't know why you guys make such a fuss of this. It used to be rare that we got the rank within the first week of the month. Of course he is not going to pretend that he didn't see the last games that were played, that would be absurd.
If you're going to bring up precedent, then you know that sometimes that delayed PR's did not include the events of the delay. Usually they did, this is quite true. But since Flamewheel is new enough to not really yet have a delayed PR (nice work so far), he needs to be transparent about his policy so that we know.
On April 27 2011 10:12 Crisium wrote: If you're going to bring up precedent, then you know that sometimes that delayed PR's did not include the events of the delay. Usually they did, this is quite true. But since Flamewheel is new enough to not really yet have a delayed PR (nice work so far), he needs to be transparent about his policy so that we know.
Oh ok, maybe you're right. But I have never seen that during my time here. It would be very strange, imo, to pretend that a certain player is the best for the moment if you know for sure that he isn't - it must make the work of the PR writer quite delicat.
I'll take into consideration the games played. What with the lack of games in April, there's a small sample size. Furthermore, it'd feel really odd writing about how players were a week ago when a week can make quite a bit of difference.
On April 27 2011 11:10 flamewheel wrote: I'll take into consideration the games played. What with the lack of games in April, there's a small sample size. Furthermore, it'd feel really odd writing about how players were a week ago when a week can make quite a bit of difference.
That is quite true. What if (hypothetically) by the time the next writeup comes, Jaedong get smashed and completely raped by Reality??? Despite his impressive performance in MSL against Flash, if Reality proven himself to completely overcome JD 100%, that will definitely have some effect on JD's PR placement if on the other hand, Flash completely destroy his opponent in Ro16. Then people can easily say Flash had a bad day or something and etc.
Even one day can make a huge overwhelming difference in Starcraft. (ie. s2, WL, 3 kill, MVP, etc)
On April 28 2011 03:57 FakePlasticLove wrote: Don't forget Mind. Currently on a 6 win streak. 8-2 in last games playing TvP and TvT exclusively
I think Mind might be coming back from his 3 years mediocre slump. I surely hope so because I was rooting for him like crazy against Bisu because he has beaten Stork and boy he sure fulfilled it (which is ironic cuz he have beaten Stork to advance and just HAD to eliminate FBH )
On April 26 2011 12:13 bearbuddy wrote: I'm pretty sure they mean this:
On April 26 2011 08:18 Evs wrote: hehe, even the coverage month is being changed just so Flash can get a better argument now? Such is how PRs are made.
In which you showed contempt for the writer and PR, though I took it as a sarcastic statement and had a little laugh out of it.
I won't deny that I have been critical of how the PR ranking has been made in this thread. My wording for the post above could have been better but I won't change it now since it is being used against me.
Just to be clear of my intent behind that post:
I don't know whether the PR writer will decide to include next week as part of the coming month's PR. After FW posted of the delay Mortality insinuated that "a lot more can happen" in that extra week to change the rankings. I knew that what he said was true because past PRs can be heavily influenced by the last few games of the month.
I cited Flash because he benefits from this the most: his current WL for the month is 0-2, with the last loss coming from a slumping Best (Yes, Best played amazing but to be the first player beaten by someone who had that loss streak is a black mark on your record.)
I "laughed" at that post because the already long debate for the top 3 ranks will be extended for a week because of the delay. I found the timing of the writer needing to take a break funny because it leaves a lot of PR followers hanging.
I have issues with the criteria for ranking but I have no problem with a writer for prioritizing his real life commitments. I am sure that when he gets back to writing there will be more arguments to muddle the water by then. Most of these will be in that extra week and I feel that that is what will eventually happen in the next PR.
TLDR: I do not hold blame or contempt for the writer when I made that post. I was just making a comment on how even fortune (chance, luck) is on Flash's side because he can still aim higher for the PR with this combination of events.
@Mortality: I do sound antagonistic but it is mostly from my disagreement with the ranking process. Constantly disagreeing with someone's ideas does not equate to disrespect in my book so I guess we are at odds here.
Flash only benefits the most if he plays the best Starcraft and if you have a problem with the player who plays the best Starcraft being higher ranked then you are in the wrong place. The criteria for ranking has never changed very much from the very beginning either, except perhaps in the JWD era when emphasis was placed very heavily on "who had the highest win percentage this month," a useless ranking considering TLPD tells you all that and more.
Flash benefited last season because nobody truly filled his shoes. Stork suddenly tanking out of both leagues in humiliating fashion, Fantasy unable to fully pull his game together until he faced Stork (and to be clear, I like Fanta more than TBLS, but it's the truth that in late December/early January he was looking very scrappy) by which point Flash's SL losses were starting to get pretty far in the rear-view mirror, Hydra struggling to achieve wins in the few ZvT's he played (to be precise, from December until late March his only ZvT wins were over Classic who is not a terribly strong player), and Jaedong losing to literally every single S-class opponent.
But you'll notice that Flash was penalized the month he failed. (In fact I even argued that Calm should have been ahead of Flash as well because I didn't like seeing someone not in either league ahead of someone in both.)
Some people complained then because the "most skilled" player was not ranked #1. Just like you they thought the process for PR is wrong. And so? What do you think makes you any different than them? Why should we take your opinion as more valid when some of those people explained their thoughts more thoroughly AND have contributed vastly more to the community?
The reason you sound antagonistic is not because you disagree with the ranking but because you were making shitty posts. Considering how much time some of us spend discussing placements, do you think someone who comes along out of nowhere and makes sarcastic one-liners should be well received? This is why TLnet commandment #6 exists in the first place. Respect is earned. You can complain about that all you want, but that's the way it is. That's the way it has to be.
I seem to remember somebody once sneaking in at #10 just because they'd taken a game off Flash and there was no other way to decide. But I can't remember who it was so I could be wrong.
That said, Best should probably show a few more good games before he's placed on the PR
On April 29 2011 04:10 Djabanete wrote: I seem to remember somebody once sneaking in at #10 just because they'd taken a game off Flash and there was no other way to decide. But I can't remember who it was so I could be wrong.
That said, Best should probably show a few more good games before he's placed on the PR
On April 29 2011 16:05 Lightwip wrote: DropBear's rank looks fairly reasonable right about now, though I'd say that Iris should be a CBNC too.
On April 29 2011 16:28 One wrote: DropBear's looks good, although i would put Flash below Bisu and switch Mind and Light. Iris instead of BarrackS on CNBC would be good too.
Wowowow, you just suggested a Bisu ranking higher than what Lightwip agrees with! ... didn't know that was possible :O!!!
On April 29 2011 16:28 One wrote: DropBear's looks good, although i would put Flash below Bisu and switch Mind and Light. Iris instead of BarrackS on CNBC would be good too.
Wowowow, you just suggested a Bisu ranking higher than what Lightwip agrees with! ... didn't know that was possible :O!!!
Heh, its more like i find it kinda wierd that flash would be #2 with a 3-3 record with wins only over Bisu and S2, but i guess everyone except jaedong really sucked this month (from the small sample size alteast) so i guess it works.
TBH, when TBLS are on fire it's hard to put anyone over them because by comparison Hydra is unproven, despite his MSL gold. Although I like Hydra a lot, I actually had my doubts that he would be a force to be reckoned with this season. But now I'm thinking those doubts may have been silly.
I don't think the top 3 is as of yet determined since the PR period is going to go for another week. Right now I'd put JD at #1, but you could go either way on Flash/Bisu at 2-3. Bisu's record right now stands stronger, but he's a slightly weaker player and his individual league hopes have been dashed so early yet again. His hopes lie with OSL, but nobody seems to know anything about what's going on with OSL...
Since another week is left, I think 4-5-6 could still get shuffled and 7-CBNC as well. I'm kind of glad to see that FBH is at least a contender for PR this month since so many people were doubting that he would be...
If only FBH hadn't felt the need to pick a fight with Stork...
He has played really well in his other games though, proving that his new TvP is quite solid indeed (not to mention his ZvP :D). I think he should keep a low spot with the way things look right now. Imagine if he could get his TvZ back to the same level it was back in '08 (when he crushed JD with BCs) to compliment it.
I'd probably still favour Flash in a Bo5, but I haven't feared anyone (from a Flash-fan perspective) like I fear the Dong right now for a really long time.
I feel so happy that JD is back at the top. He's the type of person who feeds on winning, and during the last year Flash basically made him his Yellow. It must've been quite depressing for him. Then he had a pretty rough winter and I was on the verge of thinking his era was kinda coming to an end. Fail by me. He's so much stronger than that.
On May 01 2011 01:11 FakePlasticLove wrote: Fantasy is 2-3 this month with wins aginst Much and Roro and losses against SK (2x) and Action. He doesn't deserve #5 or even a spot on the rankings
Win percentage only tells so much, especially when it's only 5 games played. And Soulkey was absolutely amazing in their matches.
On May 01 2011 01:13 lyAsakura wrote: Baby should definitely keep his spot around 5-7th place. Maybe drop to 8 or 9 at the most, but I don't see why he would get entirely kicked out of PR.
bleargh I love baby, but he's not in the MSL and hasn't been great in PL... what's saving him? T.T
I'd probably still favour Flash in a Bo5, but I haven't feared anyone (from a Flash-fan perspective) like I fear the Dong right now for a really long time.
I feel so happy that JD is back at the top. He's the type of person who feeds on winning, and during the last year Flash basically made him his Yellow. It must've been quite depressing for him. Then he had a pretty rough winter and I was on the verge of thinking his era was kinda coming to an end. Fail by me. He's so much stronger than that.
Can't wait for the incoming Flash vs JD final.
JD hwaiting!
I was thinking so too. I mean most progamers don't stay at their dominate form for very long and jaedong's been dominant for 3 years I think? (I don't know for sure so don't crucify me). After his 2010 he just wasn't looking as strong, and I was pretty sure he was going to keep falling. Boy do I feel dumb doubting him ^_^.
Don't know how he does it, but he somehow always comes back stronger then ever :D
Well, really what has changed for JD is his ZvT. His ZvZ is basically the same as always and his ZvP hasn't shown up enough to really see if he's stepped it up from earlier this year (in his past 20 games he's only faced P 3 times, and 2 of those games boiled down to timing attacks). I don't doubt his (projected) #1 position is looking well earned right now, but I don't really think we should say that he's looking "stronger than ever." Compared to late 09/early 10 when his ZvP was looking basically unbeatable... at the very least let's see him sustain this forum for a couple months before we say "stronger than ever."
IMO, his ZvT is currently as strong as it's ever been, ZvZ is somewhat shaky, and ZvP is worse than usual. Maybe that's just Bisu's fault though. His new build wasn't around when JD was dominating.
Flash and Jaedong both looking so good right now. Bisu too. Flash just decimated CJ but I suppose Jaedong trumps everything with his showing in the Group of Death. That was scary.
On May 01 2011 09:13 Mortality wrote: Well, really what has changed for JD is his ZvT. His ZvZ is basically the same as always and his ZvP hasn't shown up enough to really see if he's stepped it up from earlier this year (in his past 20 games he's only faced P 3 times, and 2 of those games boiled down to timing attacks). I don't doubt his (projected) #1 position is looking well earned right now, but I don't really think we should say that he's looking "stronger than ever." Compared to late 09/early 10 when his ZvP was looking basically unbeatable... at the very least let's see him sustain this forum for a couple months before we say "stronger than ever."
JD at the moment is having the strongest ZvT of any player any time in the history of the game. He has now reached a location where no zerg has gone before, pushed the boundaries of what was thought as possible.
jaedong's game with baby reminded me of that game with lomo on gom crazy game usually u expect jaedong to present some skill in any game but his last zvt's are more and more if not even surpassed his glory days of 2008 and back than he was relying on muta micro, now its just late game tech with crazy macro and micro . 200th win in proleague while beating 5/5 terrans this month: fantasy, sea, flash, reality and baby breaking his elo record. morality is right by saying he isnt in his best shape but in zvt i got all the confimation i needed jaedong number 1 !!!!!
On May 01 2011 21:38 pvzvt wrote:usually u expect jaedong to present some skill in any game but his last zvt's are more and more if not even surpassed his glory days of 2008 and back than he was relying on muta micro, now its just late game tech with crazy macro and micro .
He's been doing spectacularly against T for awhile now - since last September he's won 73.91% of the 23 vT games he's played (better than the 63% of 22 vP games, or 71.88% of the 33 vZ games). And since 2011 started, he's won 83% of his vT games with a 15 - 3 record. I remember someone mentioning once how Jaedong occasionally seems to figure out a match-up for awhile (e.g. in 2010 when he won 78% of his vP games, with losses only to Kal (1), Stork (4), and Bisu (1)); perhaps something has clicked for him vT.
On May 01 2011 09:13 Mortality wrote: Well, really what has changed for JD is his ZvT. His ZvZ is basically the same as always and his ZvP hasn't shown up enough to really see if he's stepped it up from earlier this year (in his past 20 games he's only faced P 3 times, and 2 of those games boiled down to timing attacks). I don't doubt his (projected) #1 position is looking well earned right now, but I don't really think we should say that he's looking "stronger than ever." Compared to late 09/early 10 when his ZvP was looking basically unbeatable... at the very least let's see him sustain this forum for a couple months before we say "stronger than ever."
JD at the moment is having the strongest ZvT of any player any time in the history of the game. He has now reached a location where no zerg has gone before, pushed the boundaries of what was thought as possible.
No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
In absolute terms, JD certainly has the strongest ZvT of any player of all time right now, and almost certainly the strongest ZvZ and ZvP (although he hasn't had much opportunity to prove that recently). This is a rather obvious statement, though, like the corresponding statements for Flash (all matchups), Bisu (PvZ).
More interesting is who has or had the strongest PvT and PvP. You'd think it ought to be Stork, and right now, but you never quite know where you have the guy.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think.
Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL).
However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
no one has ever been as high in ELO so on one has ever been as good as JD is now, relative to their own time of course. You can talk about past and present all you want, the fact is that JD is at an all time ZvT world record.
Of course comparing JD to flash or light is a fallacy in the first place because those players are not ZvT players, hence they have no say in the ZvT top ranking.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it.
Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you count further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think.
Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL).
However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition.
Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_-
And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think.
Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL).
However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition.
Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_-
And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career.
You can think whatever you like, however the most widely accepted statistical method of ELO confirms that JD at tthis point is the best ZvT player of all time, not only in absolute terms, but also in relative terms, as that is what ELO describes.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it.
Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you counte further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo.
It's a lot more than one game that Jaedong has won. If it was Fantasy or Baby instead of Jaedong I bet you'd be all over the place now lol.
Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history).
The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5.
And quit acting like I anti-fanboyishly hate Jaedong. That kind of fanboyish bullshit is ridiculous. Although I have acknowledged liking Fantasy more than TBLS, I have always been one of the first to be willing to toss him off the ranking when he under-performs. Back in December last year I took flak for saying that he shouldn't be on the January 2011 ranking and in case you've been following, This was not long after fantasy had ELO peaked. So who the fuck are you to criticize me when I've never seen you do anything but wank on Jaedong?
I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think.
Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL).
However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition.
Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_-
And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career.
You can think whatever you like, however the most widely accepted statistical method of ELO confirms that JD at tthis point is the best ZvT player of all time, not only in absolute terms, but also in relative terms, as that is what ELO describes.
Firstly, I don't need to be told about ELO since I visit TLPD literally daily. Secondly, ELO is not an infallible measure of accomplishment from a purely statistical standpoint. ELO does a better job measuring skill under circumstances where a larger number of games are played against a more diverse set of opponents who have all been in the system long enough so that their ELO ratings give a somewhat accurate representation of their skill (e.g. Savior actually lost ELO points when he beat Iris and Hwasin in bo5's even though they were both S-class because neither of them had an ELO rating accurately reflecting their skill at that time). As quickly as SC metagame shifts today, things today are changing at a snails pace compared to how they used to. Thirdly, taking into account ELO inflation -- a phenomenon that has been well documented (roughly 30 points of inflation have occurred over time), Yellow is probably still #1. Fourthly, ELO does not measure -- CANNOT measure -- abstract notions about how a player has impacted a match-up. Make no mistake that Jaedong has done a lot, but Starcraft did not begin with Jaedong by any stretch of the imagination.
On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that.
Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak?
Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today.
However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions.
He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it.
Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you counte further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo.
It's a lot more than one game that Jaedong has won. If it was Fantasy or Baby instead of Jaedong I bet you'd be all over the place now lol.
Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history).
The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5.
And quit acting like I anti-fanboyishly hate Jaedong. That kind of fanboyish bullshit is ridiculous. Although I have acknowledged liking Fantasy more than TBLS, I have always been one of the first to be willing to toss him off the ranking when he under-performs. Back in December last year I took flak for saying that he shouldn't be on the January 2011 ranking and in case you've been following, This was not long after fantasy had ELO peaked. So who the fuck are you to criticize me when I've never seen you do anything but wank on Jaedong?
I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps.
You are right when you say that it is almost impossible to compare older players with newer ones. At least that is what you say whenever something indicates that the newer player has surpassed the older one. But you still claim that the older players were more dominant... Sure higher win percentage isn't everything: the game is more figured out now so it is also less volatile. The best are more dominant. But this also makes it harder for the younger players to change the meta game as much as the older ones.
I'm sorry that I said that you would have reacted differently if it was Fantasy or Baby and not Jaedong: I actually edited that part out almost immediately after posting. You are usually fair and knowledgeable in your judgments. But you have an unpleasant habit of giving credit to some players while only using negative words. You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer.
On May 02 2011 07:14 Mortality wrote:Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history).
The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5.
Yeah, you're definitely using "best" differently than how I would use it. - when I use the term "best" I mean in absolute terms - if you have [Zerg] vs [Terran], and you were picking a Zerg player to play against the Terran opponent, without knowing who it was, who would you pick? You define "best" the way I define "greatest," I think.
Going by your definition, I'd probably agree with you.
I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps.
Yellow did amazingly in that respect - he still had a 60.59% record about four years into his career and 69.72% against Terrans besides Boxer (16 - 23), Nada (10 - 7), and iloveoov (1 - 4) - which is even more amazing when you think of the time period that took place in (January 2001 through December 2004, which meant that it was before a lot of developments in ZvT play.)
On May 02 2011 07:45 Elroi wrote: You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer.
Yes I would. Because he did. Although he did even up the score.
Jaedong slapped Flash silly in Group D. And that's one of the main reasons for why JD is going to be #1 on this ranking. (Technically Bisu also slapped Flash silly, but Flash slapped him right back.) That doesn't change the fact that this was JD's first win over an S-class TvZer since the start of last season in October of last year (1-4 record IIRC without looking at TLPD). And while his win percentage may be higher if we only look at 2011, that's could just be because 2 of those losses happened last year. Changing the snapshot of time does not necessarily mean that anything has changed with the player. JD has to prove it. He's on the road to doing so.
If we're talking best in absolute terms, then that basically boils down to "whoever is best right at this moment." Players don't usually get worse at this game. Rather, the competition catches up. That's why I never bother talking about best in absolute terms. In absolute terms, Yellow's ZvT today is light years beyond where it was back in 2001-2003 when he was at his most dominant. You probably wouldn't even rate Yellow as a top 20 ZvTer right now.
I don't think you can reasonably say an older player had a better matchup than a newer player just because they created certain fundamental innovations -- that's not even close to what we're asking and bending it in that light greatly favors people who were playing the game when Flash was 8 and Jaedong was 10 years old. I understand why you, in nearly every post you make, reference how great the old players were because you were actually around to watch them, but you seem so damned set on purporting that every bonjwa was relatively better at nearly everything than any current players, when I feel both Flash and Jaedong have done enough to prove otherwise. They're both only 1 title away from cracking Nada's major title count, which is probably the most important achievement in Broodwar today -- and I'm pretty sure one of them is going to win two more titles before this year is out.
Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era. And it's not like he wasn't playing top talent since he did to Jaedong what Nada did to Chojja. Jaedong clearly has the best ZvZ ever and is arguable with Savior's ZvT. I thought, for about half a year, his ZvP was right up there in unbeatability with Savior as well. Jaedong's clearly going to go down as more successful than Savior by the time his career is over with, though, so I'm not sure how well that translates, either.
Who's being counted as S-Class, Light and Flash only?
Just by watching the games JD right now is playing the most impressive ZvT i've seen, it definitely feels like he reached a new level in it... putting aside statistics and just going by what we see in the games, thats how i feel about it. But hopefully we'll have a series of it against a top player to really see it. It's hard to compare Yellow to modern Starcraft considering how much it's advanced.
It's definitely true that he seems to figure out 1 matchup at a time so i hope his other matchups have not suffered.
edit: Saviors dominance was all about just how he felt unbeatable and peoples perception of him rather than just stats.. i think JD's stats have been superior for quite a long time.
On May 02 2011 09:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era.
Flash's first standard league game was April 13, 2007. So starting from then:
Wins Losses Year 1 58 34 92 63.04% Year 2 100 46 146 68.49% Year 3 118 33 151 78.15% Year 4 113 36 149 75.84% Year 5* 4 2 5 60.00% Total 393 151 543 72.24% Year 5 = Just started
Year 1 being April 13, 2007 through April 13, 2008; Year 2 being April 13, 2008 through April 13, 2009, and so forth. His third and fourth years have been insanely impressive. And if you take snapshots, like between October 15, 2009 through May 5, 2010, when he won 82% of the 100 games he played, he looks even better. The only years from other players that really compare are Nada's first year (24 - 8; 75%) or iloveoov's first year (42 - 14; 75%).
That's good and all, but Mortality doesn't care about stats so much that it's a complete argument. I'd argue Jaedong is to Flash what July was to Oov, and to a lesser extent Chojja/Yellow to Nada (This one isn't as comparable because I don't think yellow or chojja ever really gave Nada too hard a time). A roadblock early on in their career that they eventually overcome and not only beat, but do it so convincingly as to leave no doubt that there's only them at the top. Same goes for Nada to Savior, I suppose.
And I think that after his double title win against Jaedong, Flash did it more convincingly than any other player besides maaaaybe Nada, and even then I think Nada had an easier time at it considering how many fewer games they had to play back then.
On May 02 2011 09:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era.
Flash's first standard league game was April 13, 2007. So starting from then:
Wins Losses Year 1 58 34 92 63.04% Year 2 100 46 146 68.49% Year 3 118 33 151 78.15% Year 4 113 36 149 75.84% Year 5* 4 2 5 60.00% Total 393 151 543 72.24% Year 5 = Just started
Year 1 being April 13, 2007 through April 13, 2008; Year 2 being April 13, 2008 through April 13, 2009, and so forth. His third and fourth years have been insanely impressive. And if you take snapshots, like between October 15, 2009 through May 5, 2010, when he won 82% of the 100 games he played, he looks even better. The only years from other players that really compare are Nada's first year (24 - 8; 75%) or iloveoov's first year (42 - 14; 75%).
So yes. Far above that.
I used a slightly different metric looking at TLPD (the "all but special leagues" one) and compared our current top 12 ELO in terms of progress in career from year to year.
(Numbers in parentheses are record in current career year.)
Things I noted especially:
- Stork and Sea have been playing for ages. We're talking almost done 7 years for both players. And apart from Sea's 5th year slide, both have been really consistent. Which once again raises the question of when Sea will ever win a league. :/ (Or does it make Stork's win a fluke?) - We thought Bisu was slumping last year but what on earth happened to him in 2008? 2007 (his second year playing) - he beats sAviOr, wins 2 MSLs. Then he fell off the face of the planet until the next fall. - Flash is the only player here to have improved (by this metric) four consecutive years AND every year of his career. Can it possibly continue? Also, Stats is on the same path of continual improvement (though he's clearly not the same kind of prodigy). What's in the water in the KT house? - ZerO shows amazing play sometimes but maybe he's just not S-class good. Of the other players here his career so far looks most like Mind's, but without the starleague run.
None of this actually affects this month's PR, of course, but it's an interesting comparison.
On May 02 2011 12:47 Yxes2211 wrote: JD is KeSPA #1 baby!!!!
That aside, been analyzing JD's ZvT's, and did anyone else notice that Jaedong took his 3rd over 1:30 faster than he usually does in both games?
Because Flash's micro was very sub-par in his game against jaedong.
Anyways, we need a new power rank!!!
won't be until like may 7'th. Hoping for another jaedong vs flash with jaedong winning again in decisive fashion or an epic game either way works for me :D.
On May 02 2011 07:45 Elroi wrote: You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer.
Yes I would. Because he did. Although he did even up the score.
Jaedong slapped Flash silly in Group D. And that's one of the main reasons for why JD is going to be #1 on this ranking. (Technically Bisu also slapped Flash silly, but Flash slapped him right back.) That doesn't change the fact that this was JD's first win over an S-class TvZer since the start of last season in October of last year (1-4 record IIRC without looking at TLPD). And while his win percentage may be higher if we only look at 2011, that's could just be because 2 of those losses happened last year. Changing the snapshot of time does not necessarily mean that anything has changed with the player. JD has to prove it. He's on the road to doing so.
Again, youre comparing ZvT players to TvZ players. This tells us nothing about the ZvT ranking, its like comparing apples to oranges.
Kinda interesting statistic: Firebathero has now played 9 straight games against protoss, and is 6-3 in that time (two losses being to Stork). Not bad for someone who once had a 10 game TVP losing streak.
1 jaedong 2 flash 3 bisu 4 hydra 5 fbh 6 soulkey 7 mind 8 iris 9 light 10 s2 (but only based on SWL final)
cbnc: fanta (only good win vs sea and out of msl), horang2 (loss to hyun bad, others from 7-10 make better claims), baby (not done much wrong but barely played and only 1-2 albeit with losses to JD/Light), stork (could put back on if he turns it around vs hydra, some bad losses and a lack of good wins)
Don't understand how your rank works bra. Iris and fbh and bisu who failed out of the r32 is on the pr. Stork, who passed the round and is doing well in PL is not on.
If stork beats hydra he should be number 3. If he loses he should be 7 or 8.
because iris/fbh/bisu are playing good starcraft and stork isn't
could quite easily make a case for stork to be around 7 if he beats hydra. if not, the only good players he's beaten in the past month is firebathero and a slumping kal.
Well it's not like Stork has had much opportunity thus far to strut his stuff. 8 games, 5-3 record. Wins vs FBHx2, Ruby, Kal and Really. Loss vs Mind(in Ro32 still advanced), Alone and Hydra(down 0-1 so far in their series).
On May 02 2011 21:05 gen.Sun wrote: Don't understand how your rank works bra. Iris and fbh and bisu who failed out of the r32 is on the pr. Stork, who passed the round and is doing well in PL is not on.
If stork beats hydra he should be number 3. If he loses he should be 7 or 8.
doesn't work like that, "bra". PR is largely determined by how the writer perceives the "aura" to be about a player. Three games against Hydra doesn't change 4/5 spots on the PR, especially since Hydra already beat Stork in the first one.
On May 02 2011 10:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's good and all, but Mortality doesn't care about stats so much that it's a complete argument. I'd argue Jaedong is to Flash what July was to Oov, and to a lesser extent Chojja/Yellow to Nada (This one isn't as comparable because I don't think yellow or chojja ever really gave Nada too hard a time). A roadblock early on in their career that they eventually overcome and not only beat, but do it so convincingly as to leave no doubt that there's only them at the top. Same goes for Nada to Savior, I suppose.
And I think that after his double title win against Jaedong, Flash did it more convincingly than any other player besides maaaaybe Nada, and even then I think Nada had an easier time at it considering how many fewer games they had to play back then.
Warning: wall of text incoming.
Stats tell an important picture and I use them all the time in arguments, but there are important factors to consider:
1.) What stats DIRECTLY tell you has changed. Significantly. There was a time in the past where a top player's stats were only being computed from the Ro16 onward. In other words, to make over 78%, you would have to be consistently advancing to the finals and losing only 3 games at most per tournament, despite the fact that you are running into your most difficult competition sooner. More games in lower rounds as well as many more proleague games played have changed circumstances significantly. Consider how many of Boxer's games (as a percentage) were against Yellow or ChRh and that's just two opponents.
The counter argument I always see to this is that "the skill gap has closed" (usually coming from the lips of someone who didn't even watch progaming back then). This is both true and not true (see my next point), but even if you assume it's more true than not true, the game has been evolving in such a manner that the better player is more and more likely to win. By that I mean that if your opponent does X, the "proper" move for you to make is vastly better understood.
2.) From 2000 to 2001, Garimto won 2 OSL titles and established himself as one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. In 2005 when he came back from the military and tried to get back into progaming his performance was pathetic, B-team level AT BEST. Why? Trying to argue he lacked talent is bullshit considering he's a 2 time OSL champ and one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen, sustaining a 60% PvZ win rate back in a time when spawning pools cost 150 minerals and other than Giyom and IntoTheRain and Garimto there was nobody competent in that match-up. It's certainly not lack of effort. He gave it his best, but he found that younger players with less insight and faster hands were winning against him.
Point: the skill set needed to be the best has changed. (This is why I always say NaDa is the greatest: who else has been so dominant across generations of vastly different play? A few others have had cross generational success, but no other to such a degree.)
It's funny that you mention about Flash and JD being 8 and 10 years old waaay back when because that's exactly a large part of why they are so good today. Boxer and Garimto had the right skills for their time: the minds that could figure out how to fucking play this game at all. But Flash and Jaedong grew up in an era when APM was a hot topic and timing was starting to be discussed in a big way. They have been living and breathing this stuff since they were snot-nosed brats and it's paid off big.
This doesn't take away from what they did. It does NOT mean "they're newbs for not figuring this stuff out from the beginning" and it does NOT mean that they couldn't have been great in other eras (although one should be careful not to assume that they necessarily would have been either -- for example, if nobody knows what apm is, nobody is going to train themselves to achieve 400+ apm, and likewise, the first players who do reach that level are not going to know yet how to use it efficiently, etc. -- had they grown up in different eras they might have been known as different kinds of players, or perhaps not even known at all... you simply CANNOT make any inference as to how good or bad they would have been).
What it does mean is that statistics from one generation do not necessarily mean the same as statistics from another. It's a curve ball that is pretty much unique to Starcraft. It is exactly what makes Starcraft different -- BETTER IMO -- than regular sports or other videogames that are simpler: Starcraft is the most complex game that is played competitively that I am aware of.
3.) Factors that statistics cannot pick up -- such as how the degree to which a player pioneers a match-up -- cannot reasonably be ignored in this kind of discussion (that is to say, "greatest players ever").
Point 3 is in fact one of the things that makes Power Rank so interesting to begin with.
When I consider greatest ever I try to balance these things. Because they all matter.
If you want to separate the notions of "greatest" and "most statistically dominant," (where at first glance Flash would appear undisputed) I would argue that one should only consider record against S-class opponents. But then that becomes an issue in that, well, how do you determine who is S-class and who isn't? Some are obvious, but a lot of players are kind of borderline A/S, and even a player who might be considered S-class overall might really only be A-class in a certain match-up and.... you see how this can get ugly real fast and how any thread that attempts to deal with this issue can get overwhelmed by bitching fanboys.
That hasn't even touched on the issue of "greatest" being partially dependent on a player's strategic influences to this game. There's no empirical method that can even be devised for that. Things can get especially difficult when we try talking about pre-LYH since exactly who invented/popularized what is often in dispute (even in the modern era... most players attribute July's role in modern ZvP from around Ever 08 OSL entirely to Jaedong). Maynard is only known for the Maynard transfer and probably half the people reading this thread don't even know what that is. Byun is only known today for the meme "Shut up and 9 drone." St.Eagle -- who is that again? (You might say he's the ultimate grandfather of TvP.)
There's no doubt that good things can and should be said about Flash and Jaedong. Flash is just such a natural whiz kid, a lot like NaDa in so many ways. Jaedong has more tenacity than anyone else to have ever been a progamer.
The best analogy I can think of is this: who is considered the greatest guitarist ever? There are guys today who can do all the same things Hendrix did and then some (albeit perhaps with less showmanship) and it's possible, I suppose -- however blasphemous music aficionados may consider it -- that one of those guys born in Hendrix's time could have been better, but the one who is the undisputed champ, no matter who I ask, is always Hendrix.
On May 02 2011 09:33 infinity2k9 wrote: Who's being counted as S-Class, Light and Flash only?
Yes. Fantasy, Midas, Baby and Sea I would all count as "A-class." Jaedong's consistency against them has been amazing, but I really want to see another series against Light or Flash. Otherwise, it's premature to say this is the best his ZvT ever has been, let alone the best ZvT there ever has been. By comparison, Savior's ZvT had to be tested numerous times against Boxer, Oov, NaDa, Midas, etc., before he earned that title. (And TLnetter tfeign STILL refused to believe Savior was better than Chojja.)
On May 02 2011 07:45 Elroi wrote: You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer.
Yes I would. Because he did. Although he did even up the score.
Jaedong slapped Flash silly in Group D. And that's one of the main reasons for why JD is going to be #1 on this ranking. (Technically Bisu also slapped Flash silly, but Flash slapped him right back.) That doesn't change the fact that this was JD's first win over an S-class TvZer since the start of last season in October of last year (1-4 record IIRC without looking at TLPD). And while his win percentage may be higher if we only look at 2011, that's could just be because 2 of those losses happened last year. Changing the snapshot of time does not necessarily mean that anything has changed with the player. JD has to prove it. He's on the road to doing so.
Again, youre comparing ZvT players to TvZ players. This tells us nothing about the ZvT ranking, its like comparing apples to oranges.
I suggest you re-read what I wrote. How else do measure a player's ability if not by looking at who his wins/losses are against?
Ranking: SUBJECT TO CHANGE GIVEN THIS WEEK'S RESULTS (ranking comes out May 7 according to flamewheel)
1. JD (7-2) - the obvious choice thus far 2/3. Flash (6-3)/Bisu (7-2)... order could go either way right now ---Big Cut--- 4. Hydra - seems the best choice. Although he lost both games vs KT, he's looking so solid on the whole right now. I shouldn't have doubted him. 5. Soulkey (5-2) - what a break out month. 6. FBH (4-2) - bad luck in facing Stork twice in MSL group stages. Current level of play is more deserving than a Ro32 exit from MSL 7. Light (5-2) - this month's dark horse, with an improved looking TvP... but considering how bad it was before, that's not saying too much, 1 game away from breaking into 2200 ELO 8. Mind (5-2) - another dark horse, looking real strong lately, getting close to his ELO peak 9. Leta (3-2) - Currently 1 up over Soulkey, may have escaped his slump but we'll see... worth noting his wins in group stages 10. Zero (4-2) - I feel like every month Zero delivers at least one incredible game. Hopefully we'll see him go places this MSL.
Potential CBNC: (for a variety of reasons, more CBNC than I usually like having -- hopefully as # of results increases I can cut some) Stork (5-3) - arguably more worthy of a ranking than some others. I may still consider moving him up because CBNC feels way too low Baby (1-2) - hardly played this month and his 2 losses were both to very strong players Movie (2-1) - start keeping an eye on Movie again. The last time he was like this he made a finals soon afterward Fantasy (3-5) - gets the boot and will probably lose his KeSPA #1 as well. I think Jaedong might actually be claiming it this month? But I'd comment that his record looks worse than his skill. This isn't like his "slump" in Dec/Jan. Back then he looked spooked. Right now he's playing good SC, but his opponents have been playing better. Sea (3-3) - why does it always seem like Sea faces the most difficult opponents every month? 3 losses to Bisu, JD and Fantasy. Win over Dear is meaningless. Wins over Skyhigh and Fantasy? Poor kid has played 5 out of 6 games against Terran killers. s2 (5-4) - instrumental in securing SKT1's WL trophy, but is that by itself worth a rank? Iris (4-0) - I'd like to see a high profile win before I bump you up to the ranking proper Horang2 (4-2) - Horang2 is likely to make Ro8 in MSL? Horang2?!?! Great (5-3) - Probably should not be included, but I thought he should be mentioned in case he continues wracking up PL wins. Still, not playing up to the measure I expect from ranking proper, let alone a finalist.
Note: I don't want this many people actually listed on CBNC but it's still too soon to make the final call on a number of them...
Firstly, let me say that I don't have a qualified opionion to whether or not Flash is the greatest ever or if Jaedongs current zvt is the best zvt of all time.
Well, there is certainly no doubt that you have a lot of insight into broodwar and its history, plus we all probably enjoy a lot of what you write here (and also learn a lot about broodwar history). But I personally feel you are sometimes too educational. I am pretty capable of making my own mind and don't need to be told which criteria is the most important and which I should never ignore.
For example, I know that Jaedong and Flash have both 5 titles, plus several finals appearances. I know that Jaedong has been considered S-class since ~late 2007, that is such a ridiculous long time and not too far away from Nada anymore. I know that koreans label zvz in periods in "before Jaedong" and "after Jaedong". Before Flash, I watched tvp games with carriers and was furious to how unfair that matchup was. And while we are at it, if it weren't for Bisu, I would consider the game straight up imbalanced in pvz.
Now nothing of the above means that Flash or Jaedong are the greatest players of all time, but they are undoubtly collecting a lot of points along the way. In the end, comparisions between different eras are pretty much just a fanboy-war. Plus, in retrospective, the childhood hero Savior looks way more unbeatable than he maybe ever was. I for example sure as hell don't consider any random zvz-losses of Jaedong (for example vs Hogil which resulted in his OSL-exit) when I tell people how glorious he was/is in that match-up.
The worshipping of the innovators is certainly justified, but personally, the tennis player who invented the one-handed backhand clearly deserves a lot of respect, but at the end of the day, I want to see Roger Federer play it, because he does it like nobody ever before has.
On the stats-part I totally agree with you: comparisions between back then and today are straight up meaningless. It's a fact that there is inflation in ELO-systems and the number of games played today just makes BroodWar a different game than 6-7years ago, where you sometimes had several weeks to prepare for a specific opponent.
To sum up: I appreciate your input a lot, but most people who post regularly in the PR are pretty well informed about the history of BroodWar.
Besides, the surrounding hype about Jaedongs zvt recently is in my opinion merely a reaction to Flashs frightening dominance and the believe, that Jaedong maybe able to take him down in a straight up series again. Plus, Jaedong is just a little bit more loved than Flash at Teamliquid.
On May 03 2011 08:47 Malinor wrote: Besides, the surrounding hype about Jaedongs zvt recently is in my opinion merely a reaction to Flashs frightening dominance and the believe, that Jaedong maybe able to take him down in a straight up series again. Plus, Jaedong is just a little bit more loved than Flash at Teamliquid.
it's more a reaction to the actual games, where jaedong bitchslapped flash/sea something silly
The reason Jaedong's ZvT is getting so much attention lately, is how well he played against Flash. Most of us can't remember a time Flash got manhandled by straight up 3 hatch muta play. Honestly, I don't really know what Jaedong could've done better that game. I know Flash made uncharacteristic mistakes, but that's not on Jaedong.
shit morality that was long , interesting but long i agree with most things you said my issue is if this isnt his best zvt era (jaedong's) then when in your opinion was it ? i admit i havnt followed starcraft from the beginning of jaedong career and i know he was a killer terran at the beginning . but i think he was relying on his 2 hatch / 3 hatch muta a lot back than and i just cant seem to spot a specific strategy he is using in his last games, i agree the amount of games are not that many but the quality of the games are pretty good .. in some games it reminded me of his zvp in 2009 when u just cant understand how to beat him..tough baby was close . anyway my question is when than is his best zvt era was if its not now(granted we need to see more games) ps it may have been long but was very educating to read
On May 03 2011 09:40 Yxes2211 wrote: The reason Jaedong's ZvT is getting so much attention lately, is how well he played against Flash. Most of us can't remember a time Flash got manhandled by straight up 3 hatch muta play. Honestly, I don't really know what Jaedong could've done better that game. I know Flash made uncharacteristic mistakes, but that's not on Jaedong.
Flash really just threw that game away is the problem. He made the exact same stupid mistake that Sea made throwing a hotkey of M&M away at an important time, and THEN DID IT AGAIN A FEW MINUTES LATER. This is not to say JD didn't kill him dead but the game was a big huge mess of Flash completely tanking and not pretty to watch at all.
On May 03 2011 08:47 Malinor wrote: Firstly, let me say that I don't have a qualified opionion to whether or not Flash is the greatest ever or if Jaedongs current zvt is the best zvt of all time.
Well, there is certainly no doubt that you have a lot of insight into broodwar and its history, plus we all probably enjoy a lot of what you write here (and also learn a lot about broodwar history). But I personally feel you are sometimes too educational. I am pretty capable of making my own mind and don't need to be told which criteria is the most important and which I should never ignore.
For example, I know that Jaedong and Flash have both 5 titles, plus several finals appearances. I know that Jaedong has been considered S-class since ~late 2007, that is such a ridiculous long time and not too far away from Nada anymore. I know that koreans label zvz in periods in "before Jaedong" and "after Jaedong". Before Flash, I watched tvp games with carriers and was furious to how unfair that matchup was. And while we are at it, if it weren't for Bisu, I would consider the game straight up imbalanced in pvz.
Now nothing of the above means that Flash or Jaedong are the greatest players of all time, but they are undoubtly collecting a lot of points along the way. In the end, comparisions between different eras are pretty much just a fanboy-war. Plus, in retrospective, the childhood hero Savior looks way more unbeatable than he maybe ever was. I for example sure as hell don't consider any random zvz-losses of Jaedong (for example vs Hogil which resulted in his OSL-exit) when I tell people how glorious he was/is in that match-up.
The worshipping of the innovators is certainly justified, but personally, the tennis player who invented the one-handed backhand clearly deserves a lot of respect, but at the end of the day, I want to see Roger Federer play it, because he does it like nobody ever before has.
On the stats-part I totally agree with you: comparisions between back then and today are straight up meaningless. It's a fact that there is inflation in ELO-systems and the number of games played today just makes BroodWar a different game than 6-7years ago, where you sometimes had several weeks to prepare for a specific opponent.
To sum up: I appreciate your input a lot, but most people who post regularly in the PR are pretty well informed about the history of BroodWar.
Besides, the surrounding hype about Jaedongs zvt recently is in my opinion merely a reaction to Flashs frightening dominance and the believe, that Jaedong maybe able to take him down in a straight up series again. Plus, Jaedong is just a little bit more loved than Flash at Teamliquid.
I don't mean to get too preachy. I realize I sometimes do. Part of the problem is that although some people are very well informed (some maybe better than me), some aren't and I read that shit and go "Jesus, why the fuck would anyone think that?" And I see all kinds of fanboy crap too. And a lot of other people -- some of whom might know a lot more than me -- just kind of shrug and think to themselves "fine, just drown in your own ignorance," but I tend to let myself get caught in it.
You're damn right that TBLS have done great things. In retrospect, it's getting to be ridiculous that JD was never considered a bonjwa and Bisu is pretty damn close as well, and Stork is the only player of the previous generation to have truly thrived in this one. I don't disrespect that. If I seem more critical of them, it's only because I spend more time trying to point out to fanboys that SC didn't begin with TBLS and it might not even end with them.
On May 03 2011 09:42 pvzvt wrote: shit morality that was long , interesting but long i agree with most things you said my issue is if this isnt his best zvt era (jaedong's) then when in your opinion was it ? i admit i havnt followed starcraft from the beginning of jaedong career and i know he was a killer terran at the beginning . but i think he was relying on his 2 hatch / 3 hatch muta a lot back than and i just cant seem to spot a specific strategy he is using in his last games, i agree the amount of games are not that many but the quality of the games are pretty good .. in some games it reminded me of his zvp in 2009 when u just cant understand how to beat him..tough baby was close . anyway my question is when than is his best zvt era was if its not now(granted we need to see more games) ps it may have been long but was very educating to read
Let me preface this by saying that the TL community tends to be absurdly reactionary. Although JD fans tend to be blind to me saying good things about their boy, I remember last year at one point people were talking about how JD was "only 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT" and I was going "yeah, but literally every game was vs Light or Flash." I don't think he was really slumping back then.
And it won't be clear that his ZvT is at its best right now until he's TRULY been put through the wringer. Flash and Light are the biggest tests and those are the tests I'd like to see.
Something to note about this time period is that a large part of his success back then is that he was so mechanically superior to the competition. He wasn't very well-rounded back then compared to how he is now. But it's also worth pointing out that around this time is when it started to become clear that Savior wasn't going to just bounce back. IIRC, Zerg entered a low point around here and JD's 2 hatch muta play was the only thing that was looking successful. A weak point compared to now is that with the JD of this time, there was this sense that "if I just break this one attack I win." And indeed, that was kind of the case... also, there were certain opponents with exceptionally strong defense against muta who JD had a lot of trouble with like Casy, Sheis, and Hwasin. But if you look at the players he beat and the stakes when he beat them... yeah.
Statistically weaker than his current period or the other I posted, but much longer in duration. Basically all of 2009. This was the period where JD started making like he was a bonjwa, but got robbed of the title when the Power Outage made his NATE MSL finals against Flash "an inconclusive test." (Going into the finals, the Korean community was hyped about deciding the 5th bonjwa, but coming out of it the bonjwa talk died down.) This is the period that I think really defined Jaedong as a player. In 2007 he was a player who could basically only win through mechanics and fighting spirit (that's not meant to be an insult: JD's fighting spirit was and still is very intense...), but by late 2009 he had transformed himself into a management based player and become tremendously versatile, and even though he was pushed to the wall so many times, just look at the line-up he faced in series play: bo3: wins- Hwasin, losses- Flash bo5: wins- Fantasy (twice), Canata (on fire), and Flash
Edit: TBH, if I ever faulted JD, it was that back in 2009 I still had a tendency to think of him from the perspective of his 2007 self, rather than acknowledging him as the player he was becoming. Jaedong really changed and I think that if there was a key moment at which he changed it was in August when he was facing a lot of top players and struggling. Losing to Calm in MSL, losing to Fantasy twice in PL grand finals (and had he at least won the second time he would have fought the Super Ace match, but instead SKT1 went home victorious). When I think about Jaedong's tenacity I think that any other player of comparable skill would have gone into that OSL semifinal against Fantasy and lost.
On May 03 2011 11:28 LunarDestiny wrote: The power rank #1 will be based on the games tonight. Hopefully Jaedong and Flash will play each other.
I have a hard time seeing JD not being #1 regardless of what happens tonight. The only way their positions would really switch is if Flash crushed JD convincingly twice, if JD lost to a second tier player like Stats and Oz still managed to take it to an ace match where he loses again to Flash, or if JD gets demolished by any of the rest of KT's players. Otherwise he should remain #1 for the month. Flash shouldn't move up if he doesn't play JD twice or if JD loses to one of KT's other players and he has to play an ace match, since none of the other players on Oz can really give Flash much of a challenge. If Flash loses to a non-JD player, I could see argument for Bisu passing him up to take 2nd on PR, but given how badly Flash dominated him in group D, I'd still be hesitant to do so.
Personally, I think we are going to have JD vs Crazy-Hydra or JD vs. Flash. I just can't see Oz not sending JD out on Circuit Breaker, and I'm sure KT is aware of JDs win/loss on CB. +9 with the second best player on the map being Reality at +5
On May 03 2011 07:35 Mortality wrote:2.) From 2000 to 2001, Garimto won 2 OSL titles and established himself as one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. In 2005 when he came back from the military and tried to get back into progaming his performance was pathetic, B-team level AT BEST. Why? Trying to argue he lacked talent is bullshit considering he's a 2 time OSL champ and one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen, sustaining a 60% PvZ win rate back in a time when spawning pools cost 150 minerals and other than Giyom and IntoTheRain and Garimto there was nobody competent in that match-up. It's certainly not lack of effort. He gave it his best, but he found that younger players with less insight and faster hands were winning against him.
Point: the skill set needed to be the best has changed. (This is why I always say NaDa is the greatest: who else has been so dominant across generations of vastly different play? A few others have had cross generational success, but no other to such a degree.)
When I went back and rewatched the OSL Finals VODs a few months back, I was struck by the change between 2001 and 2005 - there were massive, epochal changes during that period (actual build orders, multi-base play, better and better macro) - and it scarcely looks like the same game.So it doesn't surprise me that a player who didn't play for years and who was from a previous era had troubled adjusting to those massive changes.
I don't know if that failure to adjust was indicative of his talent, which is sort of a hard thing to measure, but I think it was indicative of his skills. There was a higher minimum level of skill needed in terms of playing the game at top levels when he tried to make a comeback. It seems like you're just saying that the skill set "changed," but I can't imagine how you look at a game from 2011 and a game from 2001 and don't think that the game in 2011 shows immensely more skill than the game in 2001 - as would a game in 2007 or a game in 2005 or even a game in 2003, and so forth.
I think that's what made Nada's ability to stay relevant impressive - not just how he survived through major changes in how the game was played, but also staying relevant as the minimum level of skill was being raised - something I remember him being at the forefront of at one point. I'd argue that Jaedong has been about as successful in that respect - he's been playing for five years and has been at 68 - 70% every year since his first, where he was 57%, which is fairly close to what Nada did in terms of longevity - 75%, 70%, 63%, 63%, 53%, 60%, 45%, 49%, 18%. He still managed to get an OSL Silver in the 45% year, as well, though I seem to remember the Power Rank mentioning a relatively easy road.
But I think you wrote more text than the rest of the comments section combined, haha
But I'm not faulting you for it, because it just shows your passion for BW, and it's good that while we argue, we still care about the game this much.
Just remember guys, try not to get too offended or argumentative here; we're arguing points that could honestly go either way depending on what side of the bed you got off this morning. Also, this power rank is not decided by any of us, and by its very definition (written by one person and according to one person's feelings) it is very biased. If you think the power rank is "wrong", that is your right, but remember that the power rank, because it does not measure using actual statistics, can be defined in about a thousand different ways. In essence, though it may be wrong to you and your rubric, it may be completely right to several other people. Your logic is probably perfectly sound, but others' logic is too. Let's try and understand that and not argue too much over who deserves what, etc. Of course, some discussion and argument is actually encouraged, but let's not make this into something huge when it was never meant to be in the first place.
edit: having said all that... I actually don't want to see an FvJ, lol, I actually want to see something really random, like a Hiya VS Stats, or a Perfectman VS Action, or a CrazyHydra VS Lomo. I think these games make me relax and enjoy the game and all their mistakes, and make me remember why I love BW in the first place: it's just damn fun. FvJ is so f*cking tense it kills me. Feels like anything less than perfection is wholly unacceptable and the loser loses everything. It's fun sometimes, but I'm hoping for some hilarity tonight from the two SHALLOWEST teams in the league, KTFlash and JaedongOZ.
On May 03 2011 13:23 Keone wrote: No offense Mortality,
But I think you wrote more text than the rest of the comments section combined, haha
But I'm not faulting you for it, because it just shows your passion for BW, and it's good that while we argue, we still care about the game this much.
Just remember guys, try not to get too offended or argumentative here; we're arguing points that could honestly go either way depending on what side of the bed you got off this morning. Also, this power rank is not decided by any of us, and by its very definition (written by one person and according to one person's feelings) it is very biased. If you think the power rank is "wrong", that is your right, but remember that the power rank, because it does not measure using actual statistics, can be defined in about a thousand different ways. In essence, though it may be wrong to you and your rubric, it may be completely right to several other people. Your logic is probably perfectly sound, but others' logic is too. Let's try and understand that and not argue too much over who deserves what, etc. Of course, some discussion and argument is actually encouraged, but let's not make this into something huge when it was never meant to be in the first place.
edit: having said all that... I actually don't want to see an FvJ, lol, I actually want to see something really random, like a Hiya VS Stats, or a Perfectman VS Action, or a CrazyHydra VS Lomo. I think these games make me relax and enjoy the game and all their mistakes, and make me remember why I love BW in the first place: it's just damn fun. FvJ is so f*cking tense it kills me. Feels like anything less than perfection is wholly unacceptable and the loser loses everything. It's fun sometimes, but I'm hoping for some hilarity tonight from the two SHALLOWEST teams in the league, KTFlash and JaedongOZ.
I think the shallowest team is actually MBSea, because in past rounds, Hiya,Killer,Stats, and Perfective have shown some promise
On May 03 2011 13:23 Keone wrote: No offense Mortality,
But I think you wrote more text than the rest of the comments section combined, haha
But I'm not faulting you for it, because it just shows your passion for BW, and it's good that while we argue, we still care about the game this much.
Just remember guys, try not to get too offended or argumentative here; we're arguing points that could honestly go either way depending on what side of the bed you got off this morning. Also, this power rank is not decided by any of us, and by its very definition (written by one person and according to one person's feelings) it is very biased. If you think the power rank is "wrong", that is your right, but remember that the power rank, because it does not measure using actual statistics, can be defined in about a thousand different ways. In essence, though it may be wrong to you and your rubric, it may be completely right to several other people. Your logic is probably perfectly sound, but others' logic is too. Let's try and understand that and not argue too much over who deserves what, etc. Of course, some discussion and argument is actually encouraged, but let's not make this into something huge when it was never meant to be in the first place.
edit: having said all that... I actually don't want to see an FvJ, lol, I actually want to see something really random, like a Hiya VS Stats, or a Perfectman VS Action, or a CrazyHydra VS Lomo. I think these games make me relax and enjoy the game and all their mistakes, and make me remember why I love BW in the first place: it's just damn fun. FvJ is so f*cking tense it kills me. Feels like anything less than perfection is wholly unacceptable and the loser loses everything. It's fun sometimes, but I'm hoping for some hilarity tonight from the two SHALLOWEST teams in the league, KTFlash and JaedongOZ.
I think the shallowest team is actually MBSea, because in past rounds, Hiya,Killer,Stats, and Perfective have shown some promise
Pretending like CH and Action sucks ass is so sad -____- It's annoying that Action's win over fantasy were regarded as fantasy's lost and not as Action's win..
I don't understand why JD is a lock for number 1. The best people that JD beat (flash flash sea) are similar to the best people bisu beat (flash, JD, sea). Same number of losses, but bisu lost to good people (well person) and JD lost to great. Bisu won a playoff match for his team. Bisu won WL finals for his team, so his wins are on bigger stages that JD's Ro32. Bisu's team is doing better in proleauge (which matters very little I know, but it is something). Bisu won the head to head MU.
The only thing JD has going for him over bisu is one extra win (10-2 compared to 9-2). He will also probably have a 2-0 vs reality, but its reality so not that inportant. I don't know why that is so much more impressive than bisu.
You could make the argument that JD is a better player than Bisu, independent of records. I find that a difficult position to take considering he lost to bisu, but its possible. It is however certainly no "lock"
the only reason bisu beat flash in the finals is because of the map. It was heavily P favoured. Remember he played flash twice after that on normal maps and what happened? He got crushed
Come back when Bisu can ape-smash Flash twice without getting a build order win.
And ya, still being in a Starleague helps a lot too.
Also, it's important that you actually watch the games and not just cite stats. Jaedong's game vs Baby for instance was an absolutely sickening display of skill. Made me go :OOOOOOO.
On May 04 2011 00:21 hacklebeast wrote: I don't understand why JD is a lock for number 1. The best people that JD beat (flash flash sea) are similar to the best people bisu beat (flash, JD, sea). Same number of losses, but bisu lost to good people (well person) and JD lost to great. Bisu won a playoff match for his team. Bisu won WL finals for his team, so his wins are on bigger stages that JD's Ro32. Bisu's team is doing better in proleauge (which matters very little I know, but it is something). Bisu won the head to head MU.
The only thing JD has going for him over bisu is one extra win (10-2 compared to 9-2). He will also probably have a 2-0 vs reality, but its reality so not that inportant. I don't know why that is so much more impressive than bisu.
You could make the argument that JD is a better player than Bisu, independent of records. I find that a difficult position to take considering he lost to bisu, but its possible. It is however certainly no "lock"
I would add BaBy to the list of really good people JD beat, since arguably he is quite a bit better than Sea right now (especially if you consider the game in itself), and Fantasy too now that I think about it. So Jaedong definitely has a better "win" list. And he's in the MSL (as a result of beating the guy Bisu lost to). And he has a better record to stand on from last month.
Bisu is great right now, and should definitely be high on the rank, #2 or #3 for sure, but I think something pretty extraordinary would have to happen in the next few days for him to be over JD.
On May 04 2011 00:34 friendbg wrote: the only reason bisu beat flash in the finals is because of the map. It was heavily P favoured. Remember he played flash twice after that on normal maps and what happened? He got crushed
Theres no question that Aztec is a P-favored map but in no way were the maps they played on "normal". One map had only 2-3 games on it when they played including only the 2nd PvT and the other was 0-4 for Protoss in the MSL. Sure Bisu still lost those games and got outplayed but dont call those maps "normal".
If the Ro32 is really worth that much, I hope to see grape on the list because he 2-0ed as well. Yes JD won the group that had Bisu in it, but Bisu won the WL playoffs that had JD in it. Not only is that one more important, but in only that one did Bisu and JD actually play. So when I said that JD only had a record over bisu, I was counting the fact that WL playoffs/finals carries more weight than the Ro32.
I forgot about fantasy. so JD does have a little better wins, but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes? I don't think the win over fantasy is enough to propel him past bisu by leaps and bounds (because that win is the only think that JD has over Bisu). And bisu lost badly to flash twice, but he beat JD and flash badly as well. There wasn't a TBLS game that was close this month (admittedly I haven't seen the most recent one, but the LR seems to indicate a one sided affair).
On May 04 2011 03:41 hacklebeast wrote: If the Ro32 is really worth that much, I hope to see grape on the list because he 2-0ed as well. Yes JD won the group that had Bisu in it, but Bisu won the WL playoffs that had JD in it. Not only is that one more important, but in only that one did Bisu and JD actually play. So when I said that JD only had a record over bisu, I was counting the fact that WL playoffs/finals carries more weight than the Ro32.
I forgot about fantasy. so JD does have a little better wins, but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes? I don't think the win over fantasy is enough to propel him past bisu by leaps and bounds (because that win is the only think that JD has over Bisu). And bisu lost badly to flash twice, but he beat JD and flash badly as well. There wasn't a TBLS game that was close this month (admittedly I haven't seen the most recent one, but the LR seems to indicate a one sided affair).
Bisu built FlaSh with a prepared strategy on quite an imbalanced map, then proceeded to lose 0-2 to him stupidly in MSL group stages. Oh, Bisu beat Jaedong in his best matchup, they trade wins quite often if you haven't noticed. The only difference though is that Jaedong is much more well rounded, is actually in the Starleagues still, and is up 2-0 against one of the greatest players ever this month.
On May 04 2011 03:41 hacklebeast wrote: If the Ro32 is really worth that much, I hope to see grape on the list because he 2-0ed as well. Yes JD won the group that had Bisu in it, but Bisu won the WL playoffs that had JD in it. Not only is that one more important, but in only that one did Bisu and JD actually play. So when I said that JD only had a record over bisu, I was counting the fact that WL playoffs/finals carries more weight than the Ro32.
I forgot about fantasy. so JD does have a little better wins, but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes? I don't think the win over fantasy is enough to propel him past bisu by leaps and bounds (because that win is the only think that JD has over Bisu). And bisu lost badly to flash twice, but he beat JD and flash badly as well. There wasn't a TBLS game that was close this month (admittedly I haven't seen the most recent one, but the LR seems to indicate a one sided affair).
Ugh... I knew that loss to great would come back to haunt JD on this power rank lol
That game came down to poor scouting. That's it. JD's ling micro is still superb and his ZvZ seems pretty intact to me. The loss to great came down to great sending his overlord in an uncommon scouting patter. It wasn't like JD was just outplayed.
I can see your argument, but honestly, I think the big reason JD is ahead of Bisu now, is because JD did what Bisu couldn't, and that was beat Flash twice. Moreover, Jaedong's loss to Bisu was an exceptional display of skill by both players, with Bisu just being better in that match-up. I think the general consensus is that JD lost that game because Bisu's corsairs > Jaedong's scourge. (Correct me if I'm wrong )
Finally, you're right, the MSL ro32 isn't a big stage. But I think this was an exception given that the 3 best players were placed in a single group. Further, I think Bisu was in a position to win his first game, but didn't adjust his build after the failed proxy rax. Also I would argue that s2 played a greater role than Bisu in SKT WL finals victory. (Of course, they only got there because Bisu beat JD the week before, so take that argument how u want.)
I can see your arguments, I really can, but I just can't see Jaedong being marked down for one loss to great.
That, and ZvZ is pretty much great's only good best matchup. Of all of TLBS, Jaedong - even with JvZ - is the one least embarrassed by a loss to great, at least in the abstract.
1. Jaedong Jaedong has simply been a beast, reaching the 200 PL wins mark, beating Flash twice in a convincing fashion in both PL and the MSL, and sweeping his MSL group. KESPA agrees, rewarding Jaedong with a #1 KESPA ranking, which he last occupied in January 2010. In light of Flash's lukewarm performance in April and Bisu's elimination from the MSL, it is clear that
2. Bisu Bisu may have been knocked out of the MSL, but his amazing PL performance recently combined with the SWL wins over Flash and Jaedong should earn him second. In fact, Flash is the only player that Bisu has lost to since the beginning of April. Bisu's strong multi-tasking could not overcome the Terminator, but he is still comfortably dominating everyone else.
3. Flash Flash is still Flash. While his record in April/May isn't fantastic (6-4), his only losses are to Bisu, Jaedong, and a surprisingly resurgent BeSt. Added to that, he is still in the MSL. Part of the problem is KT's mediocre performance in PL, which has prevented Flash from showing his potential in commanding ace game wins.
4. Hydra Hydra has been doing well, although not amazing. Losing both games against SKT hurts him, although he is still in the MSL and doing well against Stork. Definitely one of the strongest players for Hite, although his ace performance leaves a bit to be desired. (5-2)
5. Neo.G Soulkey Soulkey has been slowly and steadily rising through the ranks of Woongjin over the last few months, but April has really been his breakout month. Going 5-2 and handily eliminating Fantasy from the MSL are both notable achievements, and he shows no sign of slowing down.
6. firebathero Firebathero has continued to perform for ACE, now that WL is over and ACE once again has a fighting chance - and what a fight they have put up! Firebathero's vP, historically his weakest matchup, has suddenly become his best at 5-2 since the end of March, with his only losses coming from his elimination from the MSL at the hands of former teammate Stork.
7. Mind Mind has been excelling in the PvT matchup, going 4-0, but 0-2 in TvT. He is definitely playing some of the best Starcraft of his life, and may soon break the 2200 ELO mark and his current peak of 2199.
8. Light Light is doing well since the beginning of April (5-2) with his only losses from Hydra. Another one of Woongjin's solid but unremarkable players who has been playing very well recently.
9.Iris Iris is on an incredible roll in PL, going 4-0 with an ace win over great, but it remains to be seen whether he can maintain the momentum that he has built up. Worth keeping an eye on.
10. Stork Maybe this is just fanboyism, but I think Stork still deserves a Power Rank. Going 5-3 isn't terrible, with his losses coming from Mind, whose TvP has been very good, Hydra, and Alone. He hasn't had a chance to really prove himself in Proleague as January has been mad trolling again recently.
CBNC:
ZerO - Performing well, but nothing impressive. Wins against mostly A-Class players.
Fantasy - How far you have fallen since your KESPA #1 ranking...
great - Being eliminated from the MSL at the hands of Hyuk hurts, although winning the ace against STX certainly helps. Maybe January isn't entirely crazy?
Leta - Leta is looking somewhat back in form and doing well in the MSL, although his PL performance leaves much to be desired.
Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
Isn't that just speculation? According to JD himself, he didn't even know Flash irradiated his mutas: + Show Spoiler +
The game was an unexpectedly easy win. Some games will end quickly, but others are drawn-out struggles. I don't know why, but this game just happened to be short and sweet. I didn't even see the first muta get irradiated, so I didn't know about it until I watched the replay afterward. I saw the second irradiate, but I really didn't even catch the first one.
That kind of makes me think if Flash had gotten a full-hp muta that it would have done more damage. Yes, JD is known for beastly splits. I've seen him split 6 ways in under a second before. However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them, which is likely why he didn't even know about the irradiate. We don't know how the game would have turned out had Flash gotten a full hp irradiate off, but it could have changed the game greatly.
On May 04 2011 03:56 dani_caliKorea wrote: lol at Hacklebeast. Please stop your campaign for Bisu #1. Not even SKT fans agree with you.
/agreed
swl playoffs actually carries as much weight as WCG korea finals (ie nothing), its the SPL finals that actually mean anything
knowing who you are playing against to snipe isn't hard (bisu only had to practice against jaedong and flash in ace), moreover since bisu can rely on his team. jaedong and flash had to practice all 3 respective matchups since they couldn't rely on their teams
campaign for bisu having the easiest month, #5 power rank
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them
I somehow doubt that!
No, of course you've got a good point. Flash was very unlucky. Jaedong still played like the beast he is though.
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
Isn't that just speculation? According to JD himself, he didn't even know Flash irradiated his mutas: + Show Spoiler +
The game was an unexpectedly easy win. Some games will end quickly, but others are drawn-out struggles. I don't know why, but this game just happened to be short and sweet. I didn't even see the first muta get irradiated, so I didn't know about it until I watched the replay afterward. I saw the second irradiate, but I really didn't even catch the first one.
That kind of makes me think if Flash had gotten a full-hp muta that it would have done more damage. Yes, JD is known for beastly splits. I've seen him split 6 ways in under a second before. However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them, which is likely why he didn't even know about the irradiate. We don't know how the game would have turned out had Flash gotten a full hp irradiate off, but it could have changed the game greatly.
I just rewatched that scene, Flash had 8 Marines left when the first Irradiate went off, only 5 of those marines in firing range.
Maybe JD didn't watch at that second, but if you ever watched a first person VOD, you know that he doesn't spend more than 1-2 seconds away from muta microing. I doubt that it would have changed anything, JD had 6 or 7 mutas there, and 10 zerglings ran into Flashs base 5 seconds after that irradiate, while Flash had only 2 Rax pumping Marines.
Imo, there is no way that Flash could have held that, he simply choose the wrong build and executed it poorly.
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them
I somehow doubt that!
No, of course you've got a good point. Flash was very unlucky. Jaedong still played like the beast he is though.
Agreed. JD is most definitely a beast. It's actually true that he doesn't watch his muta the entire time he's microing though. During the Hyungjoon becomes a progamer series, when JD was teaching HJ how to muta micro, he mentioned, "Do you only focus on your muta when microing?" It's also pretty evident if you watch his FPVODs that he'll jump to check on other stuff in between volleys. It's only for a split second to a second or so, but that's plenty.
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
Isn't that just speculation? According to JD himself, he didn't even know Flash irradiated his mutas: + Show Spoiler +
The game was an unexpectedly easy win. Some games will end quickly, but others are drawn-out struggles. I don't know why, but this game just happened to be short and sweet. I didn't even see the first muta get irradiated, so I didn't know about it until I watched the replay afterward. I saw the second irradiate, but I really didn't even catch the first one.
That kind of makes me think if Flash had gotten a full-hp muta that it would have done more damage. Yes, JD is known for beastly splits. I've seen him split 6 ways in under a second before. However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them, which is likely why he didn't even know about the irradiate. We don't know how the game would have turned out had Flash gotten a full hp irradiate off, but it could have changed the game greatly.
I just rewatched that scene, Flash had 8 Marines left when the first Irradiate went off, only 5 of those marines in firing range.
Maybe JD didn't watch at that second, but if you ever watched a first person VOD, you know that he doesn't spend more than 1-2 seconds away from muta microing. I doubt that it would have changed anything, JD had 6 or 7 mutas there, and 10 zerglings ran into Flashs base 5 seconds after that irradiate, while Flash had only 2 Rax pumping Marines.
Imo, there is no way that Flash could have held that, he simply choose the wrong build and executed it poorly.
It's very likely that JD would have won regardless, but 1-2 seconds is a lot of damage when you also add in the time that it takes for the muta to fly out of the irradiate radius. It's got a 2 hex splash range, so combine 1-2 sec of not seeing the damage with another second for reaction splitting and a second or two for the muta to fly out of irradiate range and it'll add up to 40-50 damage, which is a pretty significant portion of damage to all of the muta. Also remember that a proper SCV drill can hold lings quite well and block them from ever getting to the marines. It would mean Flash would have to play flawlessly, but it's possible he could have held it. Also, I wouldn't say picking the wrong muta to irradiate is bad execution. It's really just luck when muta are stacked like that. You don't really get to choose which one to hit.
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them
I somehow doubt that!
No, of course you've got a good point. Flash was very unlucky. Jaedong still played like the beast he is though.
Agreed. JD is most definitely a beast. It's actually true that he doesn't watch his muta the entire time he's microing though. During the Hyungjoon becomes a progamer series, when JD was teaching HJ how to muta micro, he mentioned, "Do you only focus on your muta when microing?" It's also pretty evident if you watch his FPVODs that he'll jump to check on other stuff in between volleys. It's only for a split second to a second or so, but that's plenty.
On May 04 2011 04:36 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Also I gotta say everyone in the Live Thread was saying FlaSh was unlucky etc, but would that one irridiate really saved him? Jaedong isn't some scrub, he'd split the mutas quickly and still be able to have won with his current units.
Isn't that just speculation? According to JD himself, he didn't even know Flash irradiated his mutas: + Show Spoiler +
The game was an unexpectedly easy win. Some games will end quickly, but others are drawn-out struggles. I don't know why, but this game just happened to be short and sweet. I didn't even see the first muta get irradiated, so I didn't know about it until I watched the replay afterward. I saw the second irradiate, but I really didn't even catch the first one.
That kind of makes me think if Flash had gotten a full-hp muta that it would have done more damage. Yes, JD is known for beastly splits. I've seen him split 6 ways in under a second before. However, he also isn't always watching his muta while microing them, which is likely why he didn't even know about the irradiate. We don't know how the game would have turned out had Flash gotten a full hp irradiate off, but it could have changed the game greatly.
I just rewatched that scene, Flash had 8 Marines left when the first Irradiate went off, only 5 of those marines in firing range.
Maybe JD didn't watch at that second, but if you ever watched a first person VOD, you know that he doesn't spend more than 1-2 seconds away from muta microing. I doubt that it would have changed anything, JD had 6 or 7 mutas there, and 10 zerglings ran into Flashs base 5 seconds after that irradiate, while Flash had only 2 Rax pumping Marines.
Imo, there is no way that Flash could have held that, he simply choose the wrong build and executed it poorly.
It's very likely that JD would have won regardless, but 1-2 seconds is a lot of damage when you also add in the time that it takes for the muta to fly out of the irradiate radius. It's got a 2 hex splash range, so combine 1-2 sec of not seeing the damage with another second for reaction splitting and a second or two for the muta to fly out of irradiate range and it'll add up to 40-50 damage, which is a pretty significant portion of damage to all of the muta. Also remember that a proper SCV drill can hold lings quite well and block them from ever getting to the marines. It would mean Flash would have to play flawlessly, but it's possible he could have held it. Also, I wouldn't say picking the wrong muta to irradiate is bad execution. It's really just luck when muta are stacked like that. You don't really get to choose which one to hit.
irradiate does like 7 damage per second? 40-50 damage would be like 6-7 seconds? that seems quite a lot for a progamer like Jaedong... and even if his mutas were idling that long - that just means he would have killed even more of those few marines that were left for Flash.
And I didn't say that this irradiate was bad execution, the overstimming and positioning of the marines was bad on Flashs part.
Firstly, there are so many fools saying that the irradiate wouldn't have done enough damage.
Guys. Seriously?
Irradiate doing damage is the MINOR part. The MAIN part is that it forces the Zerg to retreat and stop attacking by splitting his mutas and leaving the scene.
You guys amaze me, do you ever play Terran??? Against a good zerg, NO TERRAN expects Irradiate to do a lot of damage. It has one main purpose, and that's to stop the effectiveness of Mutalisk harass, because they can't clump anymore. The other one, if you're lucky, is that it does significant damage to the mutas, but that's only against noob zergs.
If that irradiate had worked, several things would have happened.
1. because JD would have had to split the mutas AWAY from the Terran base, he couldn't pressure the attack anymore. His lings wouldn't have been able to run up at that timing because the marines would have made tomato soup out of them.
2. If JD for some reason decided to split the mutas in any direction apart from directly away from the base, some would have died to turrets, because Flash had 3 in his nat and more in his main.
3. Flash wouldn't have had to pull the 4 marines out of the bunker in front, which he ONLY DID because the Irradiate fail. This allowed the zergling runby. And before someone stupid says something about how the runby would have succeeded anyway, the point of the placement was that the bunker can kill the lings on the ramp while SCV's block their path.
4. Finally, even if JD had quickly removed the irradiated one, and returned, this would have allowed Flash exactly what he wanted: TIME. Irradiate is, again, not used to KILL mutalisks (well, except one), it's made to PREVENT their attacks. This would have allowed Flash another round of marines, and time to start rebuilding or repairing his turrets.
I can't believe the people on TL who are saying how "dumb" Flash was, and act as if they knew exactly why he did what. This is Flash. Don't insult him by trying to say you know strategy better than him. He had a game plan and it failed in a manner that no one has ever seen an irradiate fail. Seriously, when's the last time you've seen that? I don't think I've ever seen an irradiate like that before, and I'm sure Flash had rarely, if ever, had that kind of situation, and he would not have expected that to come up in a game VS JD. His game plan was solid.
Having said all that, JD's game plan was solid and his execution was flawless. He did everything exactly right, and I'm sure he didn't mean to end it that quickly, but he's JD, he will destroy if given the slightest chance. Everything JD did was perfect and nothing but full credit to the guy.
The only thing I'm trying to say is, stop this "Flash never could have won because of his crappy build order etc. etc.". That's nonsense. Flash knew what he was doing and it failed in dramatic fashion. When's the last time you've EVER seen a progamer so surprised? (seriously now.) Even Flash's twitch madness was nothing compared to the reaction we got yesterday.
Having said all that, JD should be at #1 in this next PR. I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that. As for #2... I have no clue, because Bisu dropped out of Starleagues (what a surprise). And I think Sea in the past has proven that SPL alone is not enough for a good PR ranking.
Flash lost because of overstimming no +1 and no range primarily, not the irradiate. Flash was fucked simple as that, there's no point in long discussions about it.
On May 04 2011 06:43 Keone wrote: Firstly, there are so many fools saying that the irradiate wouldn't have done enough damage.
Guys. Seriously?
Irradiate doing damage is the MINOR part. The MAIN part is that it forces the Zerg to retreat and stop attacking by splitting his mutas and leaving the scene.
You guys amaze me, do you ever play Terran??? Against a good zerg, NO TERRAN expects Irradiate to do a lot of damage. It has one main purpose, and that's to stop the effectiveness of Mutalisk harass, because they can't clump anymore. The other one, if you're lucky, is that it does significant damage to the mutas, but that's only against noob zergs.
If that irradiate had worked, several things would have happened.
1. because JD would have had to split the mutas AWAY from the Terran base, he couldn't pressure the attack anymore. His lings wouldn't have been able to run up at that timing because the marines would have made tomato soup out of them.
2. If JD for some reason decided to split the mutas in any direction apart from directly away from the base, some would have died to turrets, because Flash had 3 in his nat and more in his main.
3. Flash wouldn't have had to pull the 4 marines out of the bunker in front, which he ONLY DID because the Irradiate fail. This allowed the zergling runby. And before someone stupid says something about how the runby would have succeeded anyway, the point of the placement was that the bunker can kill the lings on the ramp while SCV's block their path.
4. Finally, even if JD had quickly removed the irradiated one, and returned, this would have allowed Flash exactly what he wanted: TIME. Irradiate is, again, not used to KILL mutalisks (well, except one), it's made to PREVENT their attacks. This would have allowed Flash another round of marines, and time to start rebuilding or repairing his turrets.
I can't believe the people on TL who are saying how "dumb" Flash was, and act as if they knew exactly why he did what. This is Flash. Don't insult him by trying to say you know strategy better than him. He had a game plan and it failed in a manner that no one has ever seen an irradiate fail. Seriously, when's the last time you've seen that? I don't think I've ever seen an irradiate like that before, and I'm sure Flash had rarely, if ever, had that kind of situation, and he would not have expected that to come up in a game VS JD. His game plan was solid.
Having said all that, JD's game plan was solid and his execution was flawless. He did everything exactly right, and I'm sure he didn't mean to end it that quickly, but he's JD, he will destroy if given the slightest chance. Everything JD did was perfect and nothing but full credit to the guy.
The only thing I'm trying to say is, stop this "Flash never could have won because of his crappy build order etc. etc.". That's nonsense. Flash knew what he was doing and it failed in dramatic fashion. When's the last time you've EVER seen a progamer so surprised? (seriously now.) Even Flash's twitch madness was nothing compared to the reaction we got yesterday.
Having said all that, JD should be at #1 in this next PR. I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that. As for #2... I have no clue, because Bisu dropped out of Starleagues (what a surprise). And I think Sea in the past has proven that SPL alone is not enough for a good PR ranking.
maybe you should rewatch the game before you start calling people fools.
There were 8 Marines left, including the four from the bunker (which he pulled before the irradiate), when the irradiate went off, another 2 dying when the irradiate is cast. There was no nearby turret left.
And buying time for another round of marines, I was never good at math, so can you tell me how much a round of marines from 2 Rax is?
On May 04 2011 03:41 hacklebeast wrote: but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes?
Fuck, I can't believe I'm going to respond for something this stupid.
Do you even fucking watch SC? Because it looks like you don't. The difficulty with ZvZ -- the reason it is known for being the most unstable match-up -- is that you are locked into your build before you have a chance to scout. JD tried to do something very sneaky (hint: watch his OL scouting pattern) but when he failed to receive information he: a.) attacked the most likely base of his opponent given what he knew b.) if his opponent was at the other base (the less likely one), he could more quickly reinforce, so even if the probability was 50/50 he made the right choice
JD badly outplayed Great that game, but bad luck gave Great an insurmountable advantage.
If Bisu died to an unscouted 5 pool would you go "omg, I guess Bisu sucks now?"
@Mumei (since I'm already posting): Modern SC shows different skills than old SC. You're looking at old school SC strictly through the eyes of a modern gamer, thinking about notions like "timing," "midgame plan," mechanics, etc. The ability to develop these notions (not to simply refine a timing, but to think of the game in terms of timing windows when NOBODY else in the ENTIRE WORLD is doing that...) if that's not a skill then I don't know what is.
The very most blatant example: Maynarding workers is blindingly obvious... except it wasn't. It just wasn't something you did.
This isn't just nostalgia. Any old schooler (provided he doesn't have an attitude like Idra) will tell you that Garimto was one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. That's what made things so frustrating for him: this is a STRATEGY game after all, but when you live in an era of standardized strategies (that have become standard based in large part on YOU) and you find yourself losing simply because your opponents are better at building more units...
(I'm not saying strategy is dead. It isn't. But the "correct" approach to Starcraft has changed and the only reason the "correct" approach of today is better is that we already understand those things we learned in the past. If we did not understand those things, then today's approach would not work because it is predicated on that groundwork. It would be like trying to build a theory of calculus without even knowing what a number is.)
P.S. DJetter was unbelievably biased in his commentary. His rankings weren't as bad, but I'd hardly call them ideal. NaDa was ranked #3 below Anytime when he beat Anytime for his golden mouse and then ranked #5 when he achieved OSL silver against Savior. And then there was Nal_Ra whose PR entry literally said "PLEASE LOSE."
Firstly, there are so many fools saying that the irradiate wouldn't have done enough damage.
Guys. Seriously?
Irradiate doing damage is the MINOR part. The MAIN part is that it forces the Zerg to retreat and stop attacking by splitting his mutas and leaving the scene.
You guys amaze me, do you ever play Terran??? Against a good zerg, NO TERRAN expects Irradiate to do a lot of damage. It has one main purpose, and that's to stop the effectiveness of Mutalisk harass, because they can't clump anymore. The other one, if you're lucky, is that it does significant damage to the mutas, but that's only against noob zergs.
If that irradiate had worked, several things would have happened.
1. because JD would have had to split the mutas AWAY from the Terran base, he couldn't pressure the attack anymore. His lings wouldn't have been able to run up at that timing because the marines would have made tomato soup out of them.
2. If JD for some reason decided to split the mutas in any direction apart from directly away from the base, some would have died to turrets, because Flash had 3 in his nat and more in his main.
3. Flash wouldn't have had to pull the 4 marines out of the bunker in front, which he ONLY DID because the Irradiate fail. This allowed the zergling runby. And before someone stupid says something about how the runby would have succeeded anyway, the point of the placement was that the bunker can kill the lings on the ramp while SCV's block their path.
4. Finally, even if JD had quickly removed the irradiated one, and returned, this would have allowed Flash exactly what he wanted: TIME. Irradiate is, again, not used to KILL mutalisks (well, except one), it's made to PREVENT their attacks. This would have allowed Flash another round of marines, and time to start rebuilding or repairing his turrets.
I can't believe the people on TL who are saying how "dumb" Flash was, and act as if they knew exactly why he did what. This is Flash. Don't insult him by trying to say you know strategy better than him. He had a game plan and it failed in a manner that no one has ever seen an irradiate fail. Seriously, when's the last time you've seen that? I don't think I've ever seen an irradiate like that before, and I'm sure Flash had rarely, if ever, had that kind of situation, and he would not have expected that to come up in a game VS JD. His game plan was solid.
Having said all that, JD's game plan was solid and his execution was flawless. He did everything exactly right, and I'm sure he didn't mean to end it that quickly, but he's JD, he will destroy if given the slightest chance. Everything JD did was perfect and nothing but full credit to the guy.
The only thing I'm trying to say is, stop this "Flash never could have won because of his crappy build order etc. etc.". That's nonsense. Flash knew what he was doing and it failed in dramatic fashion. When's the last time you've EVER seen a progamer so surprised? (seriously now.) Even Flash's twitch madness was nothing compared to the reaction we got yesterday.
Having said all that, JD should be at #1 in this next PR. I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that. As for #2... I have no clue, because Bisu dropped out of Starleagues (what a surprise). And I think Sea in the past has proven that SPL alone is not enough for a good PR ranking.
Thank You! Exactly what I've been thinking but been too lazy to write.
In the 41 seconds that the mutas were in the base, JD killed 12 marines, 3 turrets and an SCV before the irradiate even was cast. Pretty sure thats what won the game.
Also the 4 marines had left the bunker before the irradiate was cast.
Second place is the most interesting now. I think that Flash deserve it more than Bisu. Bisu's statistic looks good but, cmon, he did nothing to break image of one-mu player, all his wins are versus zergs (ggaemo, Hyun, CH with fail cheeez and yes, SWL win over JD ) and his vT is weak, and we have no clue about current state of Bisu's PvP. SWL wins vs MSL loss, which one is more important? For me, SWL hero is S2, not Bisu and MSL's group of death - were the real field to show your skills.
1. It is natural to want to compare #1 and #2 head to head, but why do we want to do it through flash? Bisu played JD, Why is that less important than JD>flash, flash>bisu? If Flash is that good that everyone should be compared to how close they are to being as good as him, shouldn't we put him first?
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
And a clarification for mortality (who I understand is trying not to post here, so I'm ok with no response):
I understand that ZvZ is volatile, and that it is hard to be consistent at it, but that argument is undermined by the fact that JD has a 75%+ win rate at it. And JD had the BO win, which makes losing even more his fault. 9 pool counters 12 hatch, and if he then had a 2/3 chance of finding his opponent (can scout one location and then send lings to a second), than he loses 4/9th of the time, wins 2/9th and faces a mirror 9 pool the other third. He tried to play mind games and picked a strategy that doesn't work well on that map, and loss. I see no reason to excuse that (and all that is assuming that there is no skill involved which 75%+ disproves).
If bisu had lost to a 5 pool, I would not say he is bad, but I wouldn't be arguing he should be #1. No need to be mean though
I don't think there is something inherently flawed with your logic (talking about the #1 debate, not about the Jaedong vs Great game), but it just reminds me of a social scientist who developes this great and logical model how the world should function on paper only to step out in the real world to see that things are different there.
Bisu has not done something worthnoty in the individual leagues for probably ~2 years now. The Playoff GrandFinals might be the biggest stage in whole StarCraft and the WinnersLeague Playoffs might also be very important, but to be considered the best player in the world it is not enough to get a clutch win in some team finals, you have to do something in individual leagues. This boils down to a fact that you might not like: Bisu has to do more than Jaedong or Flash to get #1. Flash is maybe the best player ever and Jaedong is the only one that can be considered to be in the same league as Flash, just look at the results in the last two years and this becomes evident even if you don't watch StarCraft. If we have a three way fight for the #1 spot, Bisu has to show that he is not only on par with those two, but that he is better than them, because they will get the benfit of the doubt. Not because it is unfair, but because they have earned it.
Now what do we have to work with here? Flash and Jaedong picking up the pieces of their teams performance during the SWL playoffs, which results in a situation where Bisu can train only to snipe those guys, even on a map of his choice, while the other two have to prepare 3 different matchups on basically 4 different maps. It was a very good job by Bisu, but to be honest, he had a clear advantage here. Now they meet again in the group of death, where Bisu can prove that he can do well in individual leagues again, and he simply gets crushed like a fly, even unable to adapt to his massive advantage with scouting Flashs proxy rax.
There may very well be a case that Bisu should be above Flash, sinds Flash did not have a good month. But the way Jaedong is playing, beating the best player in the hardest zerg-matchup twice, he must be first. There is no way around it, even if he lost to Bisu.
On May 04 2011 03:41 hacklebeast wrote: If the Ro32 is really worth that much, I hope to see grape on the list because he 2-0ed as well. Yes JD won the group that had Bisu in it, but Bisu won the WL playoffs that had JD in it. Not only is that one more important, but in only that one did Bisu and JD actually play. So when I said that JD only had a record over bisu, I was counting the fact that WL playoffs/finals carries more weight than the Ro32.
I forgot about fantasy. so JD does have a little better wins, but that loss to great is too important to overlook. Shouldn't the best player only lose to other S classes? I don't think the win over fantasy is enough to propel him past bisu by leaps and bounds (because that win is the only think that JD has over Bisu). And bisu lost badly to flash twice, but he beat JD and flash badly as well. There wasn't a TBLS game that was close this month (admittedly I haven't seen the most recent one, but the LR seems to indicate a one sided affair).
...There wasn't a game that was close? What about the one where Flash failed a cheese against Bisu, was at a big economic disadvantage, and then won? Or the next game where Bisu was up 6 bases to 3, but then lost due to poor stasises and getting a bunch of troops trapped at the 6? Bisu had every chance to win both games, but showed terrible decision making.
On May 04 2011 08:27 Yodo wrote: Second place is the most interesting now. I think that Flash deserve it more than Bisu. Bisu's statistic looks good but, cmon, he did nothing to break image of one-mu player, all his wins are versus zergs (ggaemo, Hyun, CH with fail cheeez and yes, SWL win over JD ) and his vT is weak, and we have no clue about current state of Bisu's PvP. SWL wins vs MSL loss, which one is more important? For me, SWL hero is S2, not Bisu and MSL's group of death - were the real field to show your skills.
Really? Are people saying his PvT is weak just because he lost to Flash a couple times? That would mean every other Protoss's PvT sucks too. Im tired of reading these statements when simply, Bisu's PvT has been doing quite well this season.
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: 2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
OK. This is why: Bisu just sat back and waited until Flash and Jaedong both had to play against the entire SKT team. He could then pick the map that he wanted to play on and that he had prepared for. In the Starleague he couldn't hide behind his team anymore and it showed that Flash was clearly two steps ahead of him.
The second reason why you can't compare Jaedong and Bisu right now is that Jaedong is playing the Starcraft of his life. I don't know if you have seen his games recently but they are... incredible. Go watch how he played against Baby and then watch other zergs play zvt. Try to find one game were the zerg snipes drop ships as well as Jaedong did in that game. Jaedong killed 60 marines with scourge ffs.
If bisu had lost to a 5 pool, I would not say he is bad, but I wouldn't be arguing he should be #1.
This is not how it works, anyone can lose to a 5 pool. I repeat: watch the games. The level of play people show in games is a very important indicator of how good some one is for the moment (more so than the size of the stadium). I don't think you have been watching the games you are talking about or you wouldn't talk so much about that game vs Great that was obviously a fluke (for reasons that Mortality already has pointed out).
This is not to say that Jaedong is necessarily more skilled than Bisu in an absolute sens. It is just this month. Maybe Jaedongs hot streak ends next month and Bisu takes over, but now you can't really compare them.
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: 2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
OK. This is why: Bisu just sat back and waited until Flash and Jaedong both had to play against the entire SKT team. He could then pick the map that he wanted to play on and that he had prepared for. In the Starleague he couldn't hide behind his team anymore and it showed that Flash was clearly two steps ahead of him.
The second reason why you can't compare Jaedong and Bisu right now is that Jaedong is playing the Starcraft of his life. I don't know if you have seen his games recently but they are... incredible. Go watch how he played against Baby and then watch other zergs play zvt. Try to find one game were the zerg snipes drop ships as well as Jaedong did in that game. Jaedong killed 60 marines with scourge ffs.
If bisu had lost to a 5 pool, I would not say he is bad, but I wouldn't be arguing he should be #1.
This is not how it works, anyone can lose to a 5 pool. I repeat: watch the games. The level of play people show in games is a very important indicator of how good some one is for the moment (more so than the size of the stadium). I don't think you have been watching the games you are talking about or you wouldn't talk so much about that game vs Great that was obviously a fluke (for reasons that Mortality already has pointed out).
This is not to say that Jaedong is necessarily more skilled than Bisu in an absolute sens. It is just this month. Maybe Jaedongs hot streak ends next month and Bisu takes over, but now you can't really compare them.
That's definitely not true for KT. Remember, the last time they met, Stats AKed SKT, so I would think Bisu was the one that prepared more (and he did, at the expense of MSL practice time according to his interview.)
While I find the Marx comparison rather unsettling; your post makes a lot of sense. And your right about me not liking it Although it's not because by that logic bisu wouldn't be #1 (believe it or not, I'm not a bisu fan), but because it not only involves going back into the past at least 7 months, which almost defeats the purpose of a monthly ranking. But as I said, you make a lot of sense.
On May 04 2011 11:23 hacklebeast wrote: (believe it or not, I'm not a bisu fan)
But he did do enough to overcome flash. Right?
uh yeah, i dont really believe you.
although bisu did beat jaedong and flash this month, most people on TL would believe that in a bo5 on pretty even maps with even amounts of preparation, jaedong and flash destroy bisu. most people who believe otherwise has an SKT symbol under their signature
Actually, I wouldn't know what to expect from a Bisu vs. JD Bo5. Bisu just broke 70% PvZ and Jaedong hasn't been playing much ZvP. So I can't make a judgment call on that.
On May 04 2011 12:53 Yxes2211 wrote: Actually, I wouldn't know what to expect from a Bisu vs. JD Bo5. Bisu just broke 70% PvZ and Jaedong hasn't been playing much ZvP. So I can't make a judgment call on that.
Yeah, it's really hard to say. Bisu's PvZ has been looking almost unstoppable and has beaten JD convincingly several times now. However in proleague, Jaedong is always at a disadvantage since he needs to prepare for Bisu, Fantasy, and the zerg snipers. Jaedong does much better in individual leagues whereas Bisu hasn't been able to accomplish anything in individual leagues since forever. It's really hard to predict who's going to win.
On May 04 2011 07:08 Mortality wrote:This isn't just nostalgia. Any old schooler (provided he doesn't have an attitude like Idra) will tell you that Garimto was one of the smartest players to have ever played this game. That's what made things so frustrating for him: this is a STRATEGY game after all, but when you live in an era of standardized strategies (that have become standard based in large part on YOU) and you find yourself losing simply because your opponents are better at building more units...
I agree that I'm looking at this through modern eyes.
And to be honest, it does sound a lot like nostalgia. I didn't keep up with the scene, as it were (TL scared me off for some reason), but I watched professional games starting back in 2001 or 2002 whenever it was that replays were available (and were much more readily available than they are today), and continued watching StarCraft through around 2005 - 06-ish. I missed most of Savior's revolution in how the game was understood, when I started watching again in 2008, but since it had been so long since I had watched those games, I didn't really notice that these players were necessarily playing better - in terms of, yes, timing, mechanics, etc. - until I saw the OSL Finals VODs topic and went back and watched them. It was a real eye-opener in terms of how much the game had changed, and I could see how the difference before and after Boxer in terms of how people were microing, how iloveoov and Nada caused something of a macro revolution that made Boxer-esque one-base play almost obsolete, how Nada's mechanics created a new standard, how Savior exploited timing windows in a way that changed how the game was approached and helped give him his nickname.
And I'm not really sure saying that Garimto lost simply because his opponents were better at building more units is fair to his opponents. He lost because his opponents were better at playing the game; part of the game includes the ability to macro. I wouldn't be surprised if he were also losing because of inferior micro (another part of the game), and a relative dearth of practice compared to when he was at his peak. I don't want to discount understanding the game as important (and it's obviously possible to comprehend a plan better than you are able to execute it, or discount the importance of the players who came up with these innovations in the first place, but I can't agree with the notion that it's simply "different." Players today play the game better than their predecessors did before. I don't think the fact that they're playing in a post-macro revolution, post-timing windows world takes away from that.
BTW, Leta was 8-3 in March, beating Bisu, Baby and Soulkey in the process. Not PR worthy?
While I agree Flash should be over Bisu after the bashing he delivered Bisu in the MSL I really don't think you can count the all-star game where they off-raced in your statistics.
Also you are ignoring the fact that Hydra is on a 3 loss streak, we are counting the games since May like Flamewheel said previously.
Actually most of your stats are weird, you say FBH beat Stork which he didn't, you count Flash losing to Jaedong twice, but only count Jaedong winning against Flash once, you count FBH beating by.sun in march but don't count the win against Jaehoon the same day, etc.
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold.
First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players.
Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2.
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold.
First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players.
Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2.
The team league playoffs are far more important than the ro32 in the MSL.
It's the WL playoffs though not overall Proleague playoffs which definitely would be more important. Bisu failing to get far yet again in an individual league is a pretty bad mark against him, and his points about Bisu actually having backup in his team is perfectly valid.
I think we should always analyze actual games instead of statistics like so many do. Bisu's WL play-off win was perfectly good (and not cheese like some suggest), but the game was basically decided from the beginning. So in the power rank, other than it was an important game, did it look that particularly powerful? In my opinion not really. It was a well practiced snipe and helped heavily by his team playing well enough to get Flash out early on Aztec.
Still though, except Jaedong no one else has a particularly dominating record either. Bisu would be second if it wasn't for the fact it's Flash that he lost to multiple times. Can't justify him ahead of Flash when he lost very convincingly more times than he won against him.
I think Jaedong is quite clear for #1 and he really deserves that (his ZvT is so beautiful right now).
Concerning Flash/Bisu for #2, I believe Flash deserves this spot. He had really bad month but still this month he is 2:1 against Bisu, so it would be quite weird to place Bisu #2. I am not saying that Bisu had bad month, just both Jaedong and Flash had better one. I wouldn't give so much for WL finals (honestly, it was more s2 winning and Bisu snipping "just" Flash than Bisu winning it for SKT).
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold.
First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players.
Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2.
The team league playoffs are far more important than the ro32 in the MSL.
I believe one of the point he is trying to make, correct if I'm wrong, is that KT is more heavily dependent on Flash in the WL, while SKT has players like Best, Fantasy, and Bisu.
Bisu has a lighter load to carry, compared to Flash, when you consider that SKT has other players that can snipe Flash. Even with his lighter load, Bisu is unable to advance any further in the MSL, while Flash and Jaedong still can. That's what I took from his post.
On May 04 2011 08:47 hacklebeast wrote: There are two things I can't wrap my head around:
2. I would love some one to make an argument as to why MSL Ro32 should be weighted more heavily than WL playoffs should. Here is what I see: Finals has a special bigger stadium with bleachers full of people, Ro32 has the normal stadium. When Bisu won he put on a new shirt announcing his victory and hoisted a cup into the air, JD bowed and walked back stage. Ro32 had the three best players in the world and sea, WL playoffs had the best three, along with fantasy, stats, and leta (if you don't want to include players that Bisu didn't play in playoffs, I don't see why we should include bisu as a part of that MSL group when talking about how hard it was for JD). In playoffs, players had a week to prepare for each set, in Ro32 all of the games were played the same day, and players had about 2-4 days to prepare. JD dominated his opponents (in Ro32), Bisu dominated his opponents (in playoffs). Why is the Ro32 more important?
The reason why the MSL RO32 should count more than WL playoffs is twofold.
First, WL playoffs is a team event. Oz and KT are incredibly sporadic, sometimes the teams play well sometimes they play awful, JD and Flash are literally the only 2 you know will play well on those teams. Bisu has a deep team, he can sit back and play on the map he wants to snipe these players.
Second, Bisu has yet again exited early from the only relevant individual league. I think almost everyone here will give Bisu an easier time considering group D's makeup however, the result is the same. There will be no Bisu in any BOX series. I think that until Bisu can make a SL semifinal I have a hard time justifying why he should be in the top 2.
The team league playoffs are far more important than the ro32 in the MSL.
I believe one of the point he is trying to make, correct if I'm wrong, is that KT is more heavily dependent on Flash in the WL, while SKT has players like Best, Fantasy, and Bisu.
Bisu has a lighter load to carry, compared to Flash, when you consider that SKT has other players that can snipe Flash. Even with his lighter load, Bisu is unable to advance any further in the MSL, while Flash and Jaedong still can. That's what I took from his post.
In WL? You do realize, that Stats had higher number of victories (and losses) than Flash in WL? KT isn't bad allways, they like, perform one half of the time (only Flash and Stats are somehow consistent at all time, CH, Action, barracks, tempest, perfective and violet (before cancer) has their time of grace). Just some days they perform.. Some days.. They don't. Example of this is the difference between the vs STx, vs Hite and vs Oz matches. One shows KT performing, other is KTFlashish ( I hate this term to the button of my heart), last is everybody being shaky which actually sums the team's performance up good.
As I see it the MSL Ro32 won't make your position, but failing in the Ro32 will break your PR. Also it's about the quality of the games. Bisu didn't look good in the MSL games vs Flash. Flash didn't look good vs Jaedong. Jaedong is looking fucking scary.
On May 05 2011 13:01 ReketSomething wrote: I can't wait for flamewheel to make Jaedong #1. :D
and power rank used to be delayed something like 2-3 weeks lol. Those were the days before flamewheel...:O
the bygone days of fakesteve, when the world was somewhat young, all the women were strong, all the men were good-looking, and all the children were above average.
On May 05 2011 22:55 Sight- wrote: Ok, I don't know where to ask this but I haven't kept up with BW for a while. Did something happen to the OSL?
Yeah, it changed its format to allow for non-progamers to participate in open qualifiers all around the country. This means it'll take a lot longer for it to reach the stage where the "real" tournament beings (probably another month or so).
In my mind Flash is still player in the world one would least want to go up against in a Bo5, regardless of match-up. I am 100% behind JD as #1 though, because he has plain and simple been getting better results than Flash overall recently, trashed Flash in their two head to head face offs, and has shown absolutely sick games in general.
On May 05 2011 22:55 Sight- wrote: Ok, I don't know where to ask this but I haven't kept up with BW for a while. Did something happen to the OSL?
Yeah, it changed its format to allow for non-progamers to participate in open qualifiers all around the country. This means it'll take a lot longer for it to reach the stage where the "real" tournament beings (probably another month or so).
That's actually pretty sweet. Honestly that seems to indicate that OGN at least has been paying attention to what's made the SC2 foreign scene take off so fast (apart from massive PR campaigns) - good signs for BW enduring going forward if they're looking at a more popular approach.
Not that that really has anything to do with the PR, just saying.
On May 06 2011 00:34 Holgerius wrote: In my mind Flash is still player in the world one would least want to go up against in a Bo5, regardless of match-up. I am 100% behind JD as #1 though, because he has plain and simple been getting better results than Flash overall recently, trashed Flash in their two head to head face offs, and has shown absolutely sick games in general.
agreeing on that flash in my opinion is still the scariest guy to beat in a best of 5 (talking as a huge jaedong fan) thats not me agreeing on flash having the better odds on taking jaedong in a bo5 in his current state but vs a random guy i agree flash is scarier however another month like this one and i would even suggest jaedong odds to win vs flash in a bo5 would be to his advantage
On May 06 2011 03:54 Yxes2211 wrote: Anybody else notice Flash fell below 70% vZ
I know its still pretty much at 70% (actually 69.95%), but I honestly can't remember a time when Flash wasn't above 70% in every match-up O.o
Last time he wasn't over 70% in everything was April of 2010 when his vP was like 69%
He was below 70% overall as recently as the end of January 2010 (69.83%); when he had 73% vT, 69% vs Z, and 67% vP. At the end of January 2009, he was at 66.18%, with 69% vT, 61% vZ, and 67% vP. People sometimes forget that Flash wasn't always 70%+ in all three match-ups; it's the result of two years of winning 75 - 77% of the time.
He's also dipped below 70% vZ on a couple occasions besides this.
On May 05 2011 13:01 ReketSomething wrote: I can't wait for flamewheel to make Jaedong #1. :D
and power rank used to be delayed something like 2-3 weeks lol. Those were the days before flamewheel...:O
the bygone days of fakesteve, when the world was somewhat young, all the women were strong, all the men were good-looking, and all the children were above average.
On May 06 2011 00:34 Holgerius wrote: In my mind Flash is still player in the world one would least want to go up against in a Bo5, regardless of match-up. I am 100% behind JD as #1 though, because he has plain and simple been getting better results than Flash overall recently, trashed Flash in their two head to head face offs, and has shown absolutely sick games in general.
I quite agree. My impression is that Flash has now what Jaedong had when he was at his peak. He just knows he's the best, that's why he doesn't always give a 100% or sometimes tries to put on a show for his fans instead of "just" winning. It takes a loss to really "wake the dragon", so that he develops a hunger to absolutely demolish his opponent.* That's why I think he's still the scariest player in a BoX.
On May 06 2011 00:34 Holgerius wrote: In my mind Flash is still player in the world one would least want to go up against in a Bo5, regardless of match-up. I am 100% behind JD as #1 though, because he has plain and simple been getting better results than Flash overall recently, trashed Flash in their two head to head face offs, and has shown absolutely sick games in general.
I quite agree. My impression is that Flash has now what Jaedong had when he was at his peak. He just knows he's the best, that's why he doesn't always give a 100% or sometimes tries to put on a show for his fans instead of "just" winning. It takes a loss to really "wake the dragon", so that he develops a hunger to absolutely demolish his opponent.* That's why I think he's still the scariest player in a BoX.
This doesn't make sens. If Flash lost games because he doesn't take his opponents seriously that would hit him in random proleague games, not in games he has to win like in the starleagues or the WL final, or just about any game he plays against Jaedong. Those are games he wants to win against people he doesn't underestimate. If anything the strange build against Jaedong in their second game suggests the contrary: he is scared.
Besides, the timing is just awful. He could have had this last season just after taking dual golds. Now he must feel that he has a lot to prove after being knocked out in the round of 32 in both starleagues and losing his kespa rank.
The thing about Flash in Bo5s is his ability to totally predict his opponents builds. Flash maybe worried in single matches, but I would say his comfort level in a Bo5 is pretty high. Watch Hana Daetoo MSL finals and watch that frickin game sense. It turned me into a Flash anti fan for awhile.
Still, I think Jaedong is definitely making the rivalry more interesting.
On May 06 2011 00:34 Holgerius wrote: In my mind Flash is still player in the world one would least want to go up against in a Bo5, regardless of match-up. I am 100% behind JD as #1 though, because he has plain and simple been getting better results than Flash overall recently, trashed Flash in their two head to head face offs, and has shown absolutely sick games in general.
I quite agree. My impression is that Flash has now what Jaedong had when he was at his peak. He just knows he's the best, that's why he doesn't always give a 100% or sometimes tries to put on a show for his fans instead of "just" winning. It takes a loss to really "wake the dragon", so that he develops a hunger to absolutely demolish his opponent.* That's why I think he's still the scariest player in a BoX.
This doesn't make sens. If Flash lost games because he doesn't take his opponents seriously that would hit him in random proleague games, not in games he has to win like in the starleagues or the WL final, or just about any game he plays against Jaedong. Those are games he wants to win against people he doesn't underestimate. If anything the strange build against Jaedong in their second game suggests the contrary: he is scared.
Besides, the timing is just awful. He could have had this last season just after taking dual golds. Now he must feel that he has a lot to prove after being knocked out in the round of 32 in both starleagues and losing his kespa rank.
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that every single one of Flash's losses can be accounted to him not taking his opponents seriously. There are games where he makes too many mistakes or gets outplayed too. That build vs. JD recently doesn't suggest anything in my book. It was what it was - a somewhat incomprehensible choice of opening.
Furthermore if the "timing" is right or not doesn't really matter as I just stated an impression of mine. To me it feels like Flash enters "wrath of god mode" when he loses a game, as if he feels insulted that someone dared to beat him, resulting in a stronger performance in the next game. This characteristic, among other things of course, makes him very dangerous to face in a series. Whether my assessment is correct or not remains to be seen. Besides, it's just a subjective opinion anyway.
- Any last word? ▲ Recently, I had a few personal issues which made it difficult for me to play.
Clearly, he is not at top form now. Hope he will sort out all his problems.
Uhhuh. Remember JD used the same line during his late 2010/early 2011 "slump"? With all due respect to the players, we cant deny that sometimes they just look for excuses instead of straight up admitting "i got owned", especially the top players, because the whole reason they are able to stay at the top, is the deep belief that they ARE the best. This is emotion what gives them the will power, the creativity to use their abilities to their fullest extent, that less than top tier players are not able to. If they admitted straight up that they got owned, it would prevent their "winning emotion" from making them play at their best.
Try not to overemphasize Flash's build choice in KT vs Oz. They have used lots of builds against each other, some more frequently than they would against a random player. Flash 14ccs so often vs Jaedong, sometimes he pulls out killer valkonic, sometimes 5rax, or what about Triathlon? If memory serves, he 14cced straight to starport off of one barracks. Meanwhile, Jaedong has 5pooled, 3hatch before gas to lurkers, to 2base lurker/drop play. His picking fast vessel doesn't have anything to do with being scared - he must have thought he had good chances with it. It's not gimmicky play that failed. Sometimes you just lose.
On May 06 2011 19:34 oBlade wrote: Try not to overemphasize Flash's build choice in KT vs Oz. They have used lots of builds against each other, some more frequently than they would against a random player. Flash 14ccs so often vs Jaedong, sometimes he pulls out killer valkonic, sometimes 5rax, or what about Triathlon? If memory serves, he 14cced straight to starport off of one barracks. Meanwhile, Jaedong has 5pooled, 3hatch before gas to lurkers, to 2base lurker/drop play. His picking fast vessel doesn't have anything to do with being scared - he must have thought he had good chances with it. It's not gimmicky play that failed. Sometimes you just lose.
It might well have been scared - seeing how JD basically hard countered the midgame mnm pushed of flash in their msl group d match, so flash wanted to get to lategame asap by skipping the marine push phase
On May 06 2011 19:34 oBlade wrote: Try not to overemphasize Flash's build choice in KT vs Oz. They have used lots of builds against each other, some more frequently than they would against a random player. Flash 14ccs so often vs Jaedong, sometimes he pulls out killer valkonic, sometimes 5rax, or what about Triathlon? If memory serves, he 14cced straight to starport off of one barracks. Meanwhile, Jaedong has 5pooled, 3hatch before gas to lurkers, to 2base lurker/drop play. His picking fast vessel doesn't have anything to do with being scared - he must have thought he had good chances with it. It's not gimmicky play that failed. Sometimes you just lose.
It might well have been scared - seeing how JD basically hard countered the midgame mnm pushed of flash in their msl group d match, so flash wanted to get to lategame asap by skipping the marine push phase
On May 06 2011 19:34 oBlade wrote: Try not to overemphasize Flash's build choice in KT vs Oz. They have used lots of builds against each other, some more frequently than they would against a random player. Flash 14ccs so often vs Jaedong, sometimes he pulls out killer valkonic, sometimes 5rax, or what about Triathlon? If memory serves, he 14cced straight to starport off of one barracks. Meanwhile, Jaedong has 5pooled, 3hatch before gas to lurkers, to 2base lurker/drop play. His picking fast vessel doesn't have anything to do with being scared - he must have thought he had good chances with it. It's not gimmicky play that failed. Sometimes you just lose.
It might well have been scared - seeing how JD basically hard countered the midgame mnm pushed of flash in their msl group d match, so flash wanted to get to lategame asap by skipping the marine push phase
Huh? What are you talking about? oO
It seems that with Jaedongesque micro and well timed production, it is possible for zerg to take map control during the mid game while maintaining tech progress, despite what the regular meta game suggests(especially against a 4 barracks terran).
By the way, I have no clue what's been going on for the last two weeks, so this is going to be an interesting tomorrow what with moving home and MSL and PR and whatnot.
P.S. DJetter was unbelievably biased in his commentary. His rankings weren't as bad, but I'd hardly call them ideal. NaDa was ranked #3 below Anytime when he beat Anytime for his golden mouse and then ranked #5 when he achieved OSL silver against Savior. And then there was Nal_Ra whose PR entry literally said "PLEASE LOSE."
A bit late to comment on that but still : I loved DJEtter bias. Because imo, it didn't interfere too much with the ranks and because it made it look funny. It's much better than being biased and trying to argue that you're not by bringing silly numbers
And Nada ranked #3 while Anytime was #2 wasn't bad really. Anytime played great during the whole OSL while Nada barely made his way to final, going through tiebreakers because he had trouble to beat Dongrae. He ended up winning 3-2, he didn't overwhelm Anytime.
Well enough with this old stuff, i hope the new PR is out soon
P.S. DJetter was unbelievably biased in his commentary. His rankings weren't as bad, but I'd hardly call them ideal. NaDa was ranked #3 below Anytime when he beat Anytime for his golden mouse and then ranked #5 when he achieved OSL silver against Savior. And then there was Nal_Ra whose PR entry literally said "PLEASE LOSE."
A bit late to comment on that but still : I loved DJEtter bias. Because imo, it didn't interfere too much with the ranks and because it made it look funny. It's much better than being biased and trying to argue that you're not by bringing silly numbers
And Nada ranked #3 while Anytime was #2 wasn't bad really. Anytime played great during the whole OSL while Nada barely made his way to final, going through tiebreakers because he had trouble to beat Dongrae. He ended up winning 3-2, he didn't overwhelm Anytime.
Well enough with this old stuff, i hope the new PR is out soon
NaDa played Dongrae in Season3 and defeated Anytime in Season2
NaDa went 13-3 in Season2 only dropping games to TT and Anytime.
You're right, i got my memories mixed up. I had to dig up the R&S threads to get them in order:
Truly, in season 2, Nada faced almost no good players. Who remember Zergman, Jy or TT (the original afrotoss, the damn guy who stopped Yellow with that cheese on Tau Cross) ? Almost no one. Light was notorious for his bad TvT at that time. You can argue about GF, he was good, but he choked often and Nada was his former mentor....
On the other hand, Anytime met : Midas, a very red hot Midas at that time, he was amongst Savior rivals. GGplay and Gorush, rather good players at the time (both are on that first ever PR!) and pvz isn't easy. July, does he need an introduction? Casy, the title holder at that time, even though he never deserved that title, considering how awfully bad his tvp was.
And, as DJEtter noted, Nada was losing to Mingu on proleague at this time....
the thing that bothers me with Flash is that he's so obsessed with small details such as if his wrist is in top condition or how many millimeters is the distance between his keyboard and screen. While his perfectionist nature is a big reason for his beastly winning percentage, I don't like how he always points out in interviews how the condition in which he played was not absolutely perfect.
Okay... my ranking. Don't think I'm missing anyone, but you never know.
Caveat: I haven't had much chance to catch up on watching games that have been played since my last ranking (May 3), so there may be some big things that I miss that stats alone can't tell me. (Stats are taken since April 1.)
1. Jaedong (9-3): Same as where I placed him on 5/3, see no reason to change this. I'm certainly not ready to say this is the best JD has ever been (in a relative sense) but he has a fire going that we haven't seen in a long time now. The new KeSPA #1 rank (replacing Fantasy after only 1 month) is well deserved.
2. Bisu (8-3): There's a part of me that doesn't want to see Bisu here after he was eliminated yet again, but really, had it been any other Ro32 group in history would Bisu have dropped out? I'm inclined to say no. Of course, without MSL, Bisu had better advance in OSL, whenever that happens, or he'll drop like a stone. Bisu is the kind of kid who aces all the pop quizzes (PL/prelims) but then bombs the exams (SL) and at the end of the day I'm tired of dealing with the lack of exam results.
3. Flash (8-6): This ranking is more like 2.00001. Flash's current record belies his skill... Most likely he is still the best player in the world and I feel like his opponents have played very solidly to beat him. But the fact of the matter is that he's getting beaten lately... a lot. Well, a lot by Flash standards, but still. There are shades of last December here. I don't feel like he's dropping the ball as much or as badly as he did then -- and indeed, he's continued advancing in MSL -- but after last season's flop it's important that Flash do well this season if he wants to retain his status as best in Broodwar.
4. Hydra (6-4): It feels odd for me to give Hydra #4 in a month where he tied his worst loss streak, but this month has also shown us Hydra facing S-class competition 5 times and winning 4 of those encounters. Other than a couple (freak?) losses to mediocre Zergs, Hydra has been ripping it up against a difficult line-up. Note: ranks 4-7 are all real, real close.
5. Mind (7-2): Rommel is back it seems, blazing his way into MSL Ro8. Mind has been a player I've been calling a dark horse lately. It's time to give him some spotlight. But while his record soars, it's unclear as of yet how he will stand up against a tougher line-up. Worth noting that he's only 10 points away from ELO peaking.
6. Leta (4-3): Leta hasn't been getting as much attention lately, perhaps because he's bouncing back from the worst slump of his career. But boy, oh boy is he bouncing back. How the hell did he overcome ling rushes twice despite going 14cc both times? Since when is 14cc > 5pool? In retrospect, I don't see how Leta was overlooked last month, but I know that overlooking him this month -- when he overcame Soulkey for a Ro8 spot -- would be criminal.
7. Soulkey (8-3): With a record like that against competition like that -- not to mention after playing like that -- it would seem Soulkey is very low. Ultimately, with ranks 4-7 I favored the 3 players who advanced to Ro8 over the one who didn't. It's a tough break and I almost feel like I'm cheating him, but I also feel like he's still got something to prove. Here's hoping for OSL!
8. Zero (6-4): Stop. If there is anybody on Earth who wins vs Bisu and then loses vs Jaehoon in the same month, who do you think it is? That's right folks, it's Zero! Zero's inconsistency never ceases to amaze me. Zero is quickly becoming known as that player who will give you the game of your life and I find him highly entertaining to watch, but what I really want to see Zero do is take off. Well, in the Ro8 again, maybe he has a shot.
9. Light (6-5): The Invisible Terran actually played a pretty hard line-up, but his failure to deliver Rommel's head and his two losses to Hydra keep him down here while they stand up there. However, since transferring to Woongjin, Light's TvP (lack of) skills (which have kept him off numerous PR's) appear to have started improving. Still, considering how bad they were (are?) that doesn't say much.
10. Stork (6-4): Honestly, there's a large part of me that would rather give this spot to FBH, but I can't deny that Storky beat him. Still, Stork has been struggling with the problem of a lack of momentum for months now and is now out of the MSL. It's worth mentioning that the only one of Stork's wins that comes from a player in my top 9 was in a series he lost 1-2.
CBNC: FBH (4-4): The fact remains that of those 4 losses, 3 were to known Terran killers.
Movie (3-1): Not many games played. The main reason I even put Movie in CBNC was for his performance against Zero. Worth noting that his loss was to Flash and he also won vs ggaemo, so it's not necessarily a bad month.
Iris (5-1): The Berserker has been posting results, but the competition he's been facing... not unskilled, but none of them are over 2150 ELO, none are over 2100 ELO vs T, and only one of them is even being mentioned on my ranking. Not to mention that Iris has been looking worse than Light in TvP lately. In other words, I'm hesitant to think that Iris could produce results against better players.
s2 (5-5): s2 is that player being mentioned. He gets a mention because of what he did in the SWL playoffs. Otherwise he's been atrocious.
Notably Not Ranked: Fantasy (3-6): Fantasy's current stats betray his skill. He's playing better than the 33% win rate he's giving us. But only 3 wins in 9 games... One month after attaining KeSPA #1, Fantasy made it clear he isn't ready for it.
Baby (1-2): With only 3 games played it's hard to judge Baby fairly. But you have to realize that the reason Baby only played 3 games (2 to guys on the PR) is that he didn't pass the offline prelims for MSL. Tough break, but I don't want to clutter my CBNC needlessly.
Sea (4-5): Sea has had a busy month against top players, but on the whole has failed to meet the challenge.
Horang2 (5-4): I don't see why some people want to rank a sniper who barely made a winning record against mediocre competition and failed to advance in the match he's known for.
Great (5-3): [In the voice of Treebeard] A finalist should play better.
That is a really good rank, Mortality. I felt the same way about Flash: that he probably have to drop after losing straight up against Much today... But damn it feels like he is too good for that rank. I probably would have switched soulkey and light though because I was very disaponited with Soulkey's performance against Leta. But he was astonishing before that and I haven't seen all his PL games.
It's interesting to notice the amount of players that can play very well and very badly from game to game right now. I think especially of Hydra, Soulkey and Zero. But Flash too looks as brutally dominant as ever one day, and then he looks like just another terran the next day.
On May 08 2011 12:08 flamewheel wrote: Hi guys, so I accidentally napped for 9 hours upon getting home today? I'll try to have something in the next three-four hours.
On May 08 2011 12:08 flamewheel wrote: Hi guys, so I accidentally napped for 9 hours upon getting home today? I'll try to have something in the next three-four hours.
DO NOT RUSH
We waited 7 days so we can wait 1 more if needed. A crappy ranking isn't worth it. If you need time to think things over and review games then take that time. So long as you keep us informed and everything and don't spend time on nothing but DOTA it's alright.
Okay, fair enough. I'll take the night to continue assessing and get it tomorrow. There are a few more games I want to watch, especially the SPL games last night.
On May 08 2011 15:13 oldgregg wrote: but the spl games last night weren't in the month of april... how would they affect april's standings?
That's how many PRs of the past are written. The first two or even second weeks of the next month is factored in for a better analysis. Personally I'm not a fan of it, unless absolutely necessary (aka there's a drought of games for that month, then wait a bit till games are actually played). As it is, I think many things have happened in April that w/e happened in May shouldn't matter.
Yeah, watch Baby's game tonight and I hope that will push him up to atleast CBNC or a low spot on PR. Mind is playing really well lately, too, but nobody is arguing that.
On May 08 2011 14:42 flamewheel wrote: Okay, fair enough. I'll take the night to continue assessing and get it tomorrow. There are a few more games I want to watch, especially the SPL games last night.
On May 08 2011 14:42 flamewheel wrote: Okay, fair enough. I'll take the night to continue assessing and get it tomorrow. There are a few more games I want to watch, especially the SPL games last night.
In all honesty, the Bisu/Flash placement is really the most dividing issue of the PR. While Flash has rapidly been losing force this time around, Bisu has been doing great except for that one series in the MSL group. He did do excellent in WL though. Also, Reality deserves at least a shoutout for that evil build.
It can't be that dividing. Flash has had some cruddy losses so that's more than enough reason to put him at #3. Bisu lost to Flash a couple times to get knocked out of the MSL so that's a reason not to put him over Flash. Either version is completely reasonable.
On May 08 2011 15:13 oldgregg wrote: but the spl games last night weren't in the month of april... how would they affect april's standings?
That's how many PRs of the past are written. The first two or even second weeks of the next month is factored in for a better analysis. Personally I'm not a fan of it, unless absolutely necessary (aka there's a drought of games for that month, then wait a bit till games are actually played). As it is, I think many things have happened in April that w/e happened in May shouldn't matter.
It would be rather silly to post a ranking based strictly on April when new data is available that could potentially invalidate such a ranking.
Regarding the current ranking: Stork drops to CBNC. Fantasy moves up to CBNC. Consider adding Baby and Horang2 to CBNC. Either FBH or Movie slides in at #10. Mind and Hydra switch places (Mind now #4). Consider bumping s2 off CBNC.
On May 08 2011 15:13 oldgregg wrote: but the spl games last night weren't in the month of april... how would they affect april's standings?
That's how many PRs of the past are written. The first two or even second weeks of the next month is factored in for a better analysis. Personally I'm not a fan of it, unless absolutely necessary (aka there's a drought of games for that month, then wait a bit till games are actually played). As it is, I think many things have happened in April that w/e happened in May shouldn't matter.
It would be rather silly to post a ranking based strictly on April when new data is available that could potentially invalidate such a ranking.
Not necessarily. If the point of the monthly power rank is to chart how well progamers are doing each month, then a ranking based strictly on April would make perfect sense. (If it's to approximate an up-to-date current ranking of progamers then no matter how up-to-date it is when released, it loses relevance as the month goes on.)
On May 08 2011 15:13 oldgregg wrote: but the spl games last night weren't in the month of april... how would they affect april's standings?
That's how many PRs of the past are written. The first two or even second weeks of the next month is factored in for a better analysis. Personally I'm not a fan of it, unless absolutely necessary (aka there's a drought of games for that month, then wait a bit till games are actually played). As it is, I think many things have happened in April that w/e happened in May shouldn't matter.
It would be rather silly to post a ranking based strictly on April when new data is available that could potentially invalidate such a ranking.
Not necessarily. If the point of the monthly power rank is to chart how well progamers are doing each month, then a ranking based strictly on April would make perfect sense. (If it's to approximate an up-to-date current ranking of progamers then no matter how up-to-date it is when released, it loses relevance as the month goes on.)
1.) It's not particularly meant to be a "monthly chart." It's a ranking released monthly rather than a rank of only one month's play. (Everyone who I have ever seen claim they are talking about one month's play was lying anyway -- they ALWAYS draw on historical precedents to shape their perceptions, which is OKAY, but it's not "one month only" if you do that. A true one month only ranking would effectively be like setting everyone's ELO to 2000 at the start of the month, every single month, which is not what anybody does.)
2.) Not many games are played per month so our perceptions of skill are shaped by a very limited amount of data. New data puts older results into perspective. The more data points (games played), the easier it is to correctly gauge a player's strengths and weaknesses.
3.) Everyone has already seen the new games and will be talking about them and questioning why you ranked things the way you did when new data suggests that a certain result was a fluke or that Player A happens to be really good at a certain strategy, but is not looking well-rounded, etc.
Let's go back in time one month. Suppose the 4/1/2011 ranking had been postponed to like 4/10/2011. Can you imagine the squawking that would have occurred over Bisu being ranked #8 after the way he played in the SWL playoffs? (And to be clear there is no way that based on March I would have been okay with Bisu at anything above #6 at the very highest, but based on data from early April there would be no way to justify keeping him out of the top 4.) Discussion over PR can be very fun, but it starts getting frustrating when you have 100 pages of redundant fanboy bitching.
EPT
Crazy-Hydra - Out of nowhere CH comes in gets an AK against MBC, culminating in a tense game against Sea. If Horang2 weren't randomly producing results, I'd say CH would be a good contender for #10, but not nearly as good, considering this is completely out of the blue.
free - Off the B-team, back on the bench. Free's definitely looking better, though his MST game against Canata almost put me to sleep. Still, I'd like to see a bit more out of him before he makes it back on the PR.
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1760359/bisu.png)
![[image loading]](http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg)
