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On April 04 2011 07:24 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2011 17:26 Lightwip wrote:On April 03 2011 15:49 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 11:17 Lightwip wrote:On April 03 2011 09:09 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 08:19 Random_0 wrote:
I have no idea why Hydra has been left off the list. Hydra won an MSL 2 months ago, and has been playing in middling fashion in Proleague since then. This is certainly better than Stork and Horang2. Please read comments and discussion before posting questions with obvious answers: On April 02 2011 18:00 Mortality wrote:On April 02 2011 16:39 ShadeR wrote:On April 02 2011 16:20 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Stork nose-dived last month going 0-3 vs fantasy and 0-3 vs Zero, also stopped producing in PL and doesn't get dropped. Stork goes 5-6 the next month, but retains rank 7. Two average months got Hydra knocked out of the PR. Why is Stork still here, other than his reputation, as usual -__- TBLS got rep... Shouldn't be shocking that the 4 pillars need to prove "less". Stork has also toppled some strong players since his OSL loss including Flash, Fantasy, Bisu (x2), and Stats. In fact every single loss on his record has been to a strong vP player, by ELO the weakest of whom is Baby, by reputation probably Shuttle who is a PvP specialist. And more importantly... doesn't anyone actually watch Starcraft anymore or are we just going to quote results all day long?Compare to Hydra: 3-7 in his last 10 ZvT's (mostly against good players, but varied competition), including 1-4 since his MSL win with somewhat embarrassing losses to Really and Iris (watch the games and see for yourself), getting WTF!pwned against Kal in a manner that suggested he was unfamiliar with the timing of reaver/sair and looked... not as strong in ZvZ as he did during MSL even just a few days later. Personally, I kind of like Hydra. Fuck this shit about how he's "boring," he's managed to figure out how to deal with the timing of the current Protoss attack and he successfully engineered his timing vs Great mid-series. But he's still got some holes in his game that need filling. I wrote this just one page back and so far we are only on page 4 so length of the discussion is no excuse. I really think your standard is ambiguous. Yes, it's important to see what fashion players win and lose in, but would you really give the nod to someone with awful results that 'played well'? You could always be missing a big flaw in their play, and you have to ask yourself why they can't beat good players when they play so well. Stork is the best example of this. You somehow think that just because he lost to only all the good vP players he's played, that "playing well" makes him deserve a spot. It sure is a lot easier to play well against weaker opponents too. I could potentially look brilliant playing against a bnet scrub, and Stork could vs average A-class players. + Show Spoiler +Your points honestly remind me of fanatacist's troll guide.
ME 1
Thread Title: "Bisu for Bonjwa"
First post:
"Bisu should be considered a bonjwa due to his dominant performance"
Second-Nth post:
"I completely agree, Bisu did blah blah blah #1 PR blah blah ELO PvP blah rape Savior blah"
Tank post:
"Bisu is beyond terrible, how can anyone consider making him a bonjwa?"
Response:
"Are you retarded? Bisu is the best!"
Tank post:
"He lost to _____ (noob player here)"
Response:
"Who cares? He still has the highest ELO and 3 MSL badges."
Tank post:
"MSLs aren't worth shit, I'm pretty sure Stork is the better player."
Response:
"Stork has a losing record against Bisu in the past year and has been getting raped over and over in the past few months."
Tank post:
"Record doesn't matter you idiot, what matters is their play man, their PLAY. You are all noobs and wouldn't understand."<-this line here I've never said that record doesn't matter. But FFS dude, aren't you even going to try to point out faults in game play? I'm not unreasonable -- look at last month's discussion and you'll see that I was willing to revise my assessment of Horang2 based on Oystein's comments because he talked Starcraft and he made sense. I'm waiting for you to add something to this discussion beyond what any blind idiot is capable of seeing. Yes Stork lost to his toughest opponents in March. Your point? That also does a very good job describing Bisu. If we were considering stats alone then neither would be on the PR. But in case you haven't noticed, PR has always, ALWAYS attempted to fill in gaps that stats alone cannot do. Hmph. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree; at this point I don't see you ever changing your mind. Though I have to say that while I usually agree with you for the most part, I think your logic seems to be off in this specific case. Though out of curiosity, what games of Stork's impressed you so much this month? At this point I'm coming to the conclusion that you don't actually watch Starcraft since you are completely unwilling to talk Starcraft. At this point the best thing for me to do would probably be to dismiss you as a lost cause, but on this one occasion I will humor you. The best starting place perhaps is with Stork vs Stats. This is the best starting place because it establishes the best baseline for comparison between Stork and Bisu. I already discussed Bisu's PvP losses earlier in the thread. The reason why is that this is exactly the kind of game Bisu has been losing lately against a player Bisu has never beaten (Stats is 2-0 vs Bisu). Watch how Bisu consistently eats Kal's storms with his reavers in their midgame clashes and then watch Stork's reaver micro against Stats, consistently saving reavers and sniping Stats' reavers in the face of beautiful storms. Following this, we may as well continue talking about that same match. Stork played Action next in a fantastic PvZ on a map that favors Zerg. As we both know, Action is a player who is very inconsistent, sometimes playing at a high level (see also Action vs Bisu back in December) and sometimes playing like donkey balls. That night Action brought his A game. Finally you have Stork vs Flash in the final boss role. Stork did not do anything wrong to lose that game. Some people including myself thought at the time that he should have chased Flash's marines but this would not have affected Flash's timing window. And as Yxes2211 pointed out, Stork's play vs Jaedong wasn't really a worse loss than Bisu's vs Jaedong. And similarly on the subject of losses, Baby countered Stork's build exactly, which is similar to Leta vs Bisu. (Btw, even though the medic was never really used, it was genius to make it: since Baby managed to scout Stork's build he knew that Stork's obs count was going to be low hence if Stork tried to follow up with "safe" play it would have backfired equally due to blind.) Yes there was a bit of scrappiness in his control but it wouldn't have mattered. Stork was sick on that particular day and it showed in his somewhat scrappy win over Mind. Stork vs Shuttle was a total build order loss. Shuttle went 2 gate range so Stork went 3 gate range... but Shuttle was sneaky and made a late hidden citadel. Normally after Stork's probe left you would cancel range for the gas, but Shuttle kept it researching and cut dragoons instead for the extra gas. When Stork snuck his probe back in it saw range still researching so he had no reason to expect dt. Stork's only option was to try to force an elimination race which failed. Stork vs Horang2... I feel like this was more a good example of how PvP can be very fickle rather than a failing of Stork's. He was playing superior Starcraft most of the game and when his psi storms lit up Horang2's army I thought it was won but Horang2's position just turned out to be a key factor since he was able to stream his zealots onto Stork's goons on the far side from Stork's reavers while his own reavers were able to fire on Stork's zealots. But no matter how much we'd like to criticize Horang2's scrappiness he's #1 PvP for a reason. Stork vs Zero was just brilliant play by Zero, period. Yes I'd like to see from Stork some indication that Zero won't decimate him every time they face but that game was more Zero's credit than Stork's discredit. I'll pass the wins over Mind, Hero, and Crazy-Hydra without too much remark. Stork rolled them as we'd expect, although Crazy-Hydra actually played pretty good. The game vs Hero was just LOL. So again, I'm going to say that any standard that removes Stork from the PR removes Bisu as well. The opponents Bisu lost to were of similar standard and the opponents he beat were actually of lower standard overall (bear in mind that Soulkey and Really have been slumping). Off the top of my head, at least two of his wins were more to his opponent's discredit than Bisu's credit and one of his losses in particular was just a horrible, horrible game. 5-4 does not impress me any more than 5-6 after considering the competition.
Mortality, have I told you how much I love you? <3
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Wow FBH is relevant again, woohoo. And finally some more positive recognition for Fantasy. The guy is the usually the measuring stick of inconsistency and therefore bad rep.
And I will apologize beforehand, but how can I type the progamer's names with their race logo. (I'm sorry, I'm new to the posting on forums.)
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United States10328 Posts
On April 04 2011 10:11 night terrors wrote:
Geez TL so bitter loving.
Psh, can't you read the post above you? ^.^
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On April 04 2011 06:44 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off. I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player. Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games. On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up.
But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before.
I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
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On April 04 2011 13:27 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 06:44 Mortality wrote:On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off. I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player. Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games. On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up. But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before. I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
You can better imagine that ACE's spirits is high, their 3 aces, Ruby, FBH and GGaemo qualified for a starleague, theyre gonna be trigger happy =D
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everyone needs anger management after the new power rank comes out... Take it easy guys!
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On April 04 2011 13:27 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 06:44 Mortality wrote:On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off. I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player. Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games. On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up. But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before. I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be.
Your word choice is very interesting. You use the word mediocre in a very literal manner. I think the connotation is stronger than you intend, in a bad way that is. Solid and mediocre aren't words I would usually string together...
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On April 04 2011 15:19 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 13:27 Slow Motion wrote:On April 04 2011 06:44 Mortality wrote:On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off. I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player. Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games. On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up. But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before. I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be. Your word choice is very interesting. You use the word mediocre in a very literal manner. I think the connotation is stronger than you intend, in a bad way that is. Solid and mediocre aren't words I would usually string together...
Medium strength then. That is what I mean.
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When I almost want to damn the rank of April 1st, I restrain it because I know this is at TL, it will easily be banned for two days or longer, and I could don't see sc2 rank if I dislike it. I just don't realize April 1st means what, it really fool me! Well done! Good writeup for bw power rank!
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Taiwan619 Posts
fbhhh <3
come back to khan you rebel
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On April 04 2011 15:27 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 15:19 Mortality wrote:On April 04 2011 13:27 Slow Motion wrote:On April 04 2011 06:44 Mortality wrote:On April 04 2011 00:50 Slow Motion wrote:On April 03 2011 10:39 Mortality wrote:On April 03 2011 10:24 Slow Motion wrote:
I always thought that the power rank is trying to list the players who, based on the results from the past month, you think are the best players right now. So it can't just be about statistics or results, but what you think those results show in terms of that player's current skill.
Having said all this I have to say that while there is an arguments that FBH should be where he is based on the number of his wins, I doubt anyone could say FBH is the 5th best BW player right now. It'd be different if he suddenly took down a number of the strongest players last month. That would show a definite ability that might mean he's legitimately better than Baby, Stork, or Bisu right now.
But I think when you look at FBH's wins in the context of the WL structure and the weakness of ACE's other players, then maybe a string of wins against mediocre to weak players is, while still impressive, not an indicator that he is a top 5 player. 1. PR has always been a rank of how hot players are, although exactly what that means varies a little bit depending on who's doing the ranking. 2. I hardly think it's fair to call FBH's list of opponents "mediocre to weak." Unless of course you think that team you claim to support -- Fox -- is a team full of mediocre chumps considering FBH managed a 3-kill against them. I support Fox cause of NaDa. And I'm realistic about them. Aside from Baby who is strong, the rest of them ARE mediocre to weak. Roro is solid but basically the definition of mediocre. And that's where I see FBH is at. A solid, mediocre player right now who is favored vs weaker players, 50/50 against other mediocre players, and disfavored vs. strong players like Baby, Stork, or Bisu. Anyway, I'm not super offended by FBH's position because I can see where it's coming from. I just can't agree with it. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the coming months will prove me right and FBH will drop off. I <3 NaDa too, but you know he moved on to SC2 a while ago. Also, a pet peeve of mine is when fans wear a team badge but don't actually care for a team, just a particular player. Nobody is saying that in skill FBH matches Bisu or Stork or anything like that. We're totally fine with FBH dropping off the ranking later if he flops on his face when fighting difficult competition. If we want a more "consistent" ranking then we really need to consider a longer time period (e.g. each ranking considers the past 3 months results). When you say FBH should be lower, you aren't really doing so looking at last month and what he did but from a much longer history. You're looking at his mediocre record over the past 2-3 years and the fact that Ace players never advance very far. Although I think you are also looking at his results in the wrong way in that you think that when he stops advancing that's it, show's over. I don't think that way. I think what he did for his team deserves consideration as well and I think this is one of the things that separates PR from ELO and KeSPA rank: we can consider the meta effect of lifting the spirits of a team that was on a 16 match loss streak. Even after FBH stops performing, if his team can pull together even just a few wins next round then I would argue that FBH has played a huge role in making that possible even if he loses his games. On an unrelated note: long post about Stork coming up. But see I don't think the Power Rank is just who performed the best last month. We can all see that from the stats. I see it as being who is the most skilled at this specific point in time, given what happened last month. And if I discounted FBH's performance last month and took into account his play over a longer period, then I would rate him even lower. It's his solid performance last month that convinced me that he is a mediocre player and that his skill has improved from before. I didn't really consider the effect FBH has on ACE's spirit as a factor in the power rank. I always though of it as an evaluation that was focused on individual skills. But I guess this is what makes Power Rank fun, is that it's not really defined and everyone has their conceptions of what it should be. Your word choice is very interesting. You use the word mediocre in a very literal manner. I think the connotation is stronger than you intend, in a bad way that is. Solid and mediocre aren't words I would usually string together... Medium strength then. That is what I mean.
I'm pretty sure that you are using the word correctly. Just saying that calling someone second-rate (synonymous) is usually taken as an insult although strictly speaking it isn't and probably is an accurate depiction of FBH's current skill. I just found it to be an interesting choice of words. You don't usually think of someone as stepping up their play to be mediocre.
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Why so much reticence it calling Fantasy S. His has accomplished more in the past two years than any players but Flash and Jeadong. If you don't count him as a S player, I don't see how you could say Stork and Bisu are S. I don't think his wacky style discredit him. Sure it means he will sometime loose miserably to players he should have beaten but it's also an advantage when facing top players. Fantasy is unpredictable.
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On April 05 2011 00:52 kamizushi wrote:
Why so much reticence it calling Fantasy S. His has accomplished more in the past two years than any players but Flash and Jeadong. If you don't count him as a S player, I don't see how you could say Stork and Bisu are S. I don't think his wacky style discredit him. Sure it means he will sometime loose miserably to players he should have beaten but it's also an advantage when facing top players. Fantasy is unpredictable. That's exactly what has been keeping him from entering the S-class: losing in silly, gimmicky ways to players he should have had no trouble beating.
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On April 05 2011 00:52 kamizushi wrote:
Why so much reticence it calling Fantasy S. His has accomplished more in the past two years than any players but Flash and Jeadong. If you don't count him as a S player, I don't see how you could say Stork and Bisu are S. I don't think his wacky style discredit him. Sure it means he will sometime loose miserably to players he should have beaten but it's also an advantage when facing top players. Fantasy is unpredictable.
It's the eternal question of "What is S class?" though, almost as hard as the bonjwa thing. In theory-world we say:
S-class (ideal): incredibly consistent against worse players including A-class, only loses to other S-class (Flash, Jaedong, ?)
A-class (ideal): beats worse players, has a chance against the best players but loses most of the time (basically consistency: Sea is probably the epitome of the A-class, and unique in almost never slumping out of it).
The thing is, no-one actually plays S class all the time, so imo there's basically two classes of players:
S-class (reality): Can play at S level for streaks, even months at a time, never drops below A level.
A-class (reality): Plays at A level most of the time but slump will drop out of this.
This is why Stork, Bisu, and even Jaedong can be considered S-class - they're almost always playing at least an A game.
Similarly, we consider Calm, Kal, ZerO, free, etc. A class players - they periodically play really bad (50% or so) for months at a time even though they've got a really high peak.
(I'd argue we really ought to say there's a third "B class" of decent players - RorO, Stats (so far), Movie: players who can maintain a 50% (+ or - a bit) and beat good players but aren't really "good"; or players who are really streaky (Shine, Hyuk).)
The thing about fantasy is that he's better than A-class when on but unpredictable as my "B" class when he's off. S-class? Kind of... I mean when Flash got bounced from leagues last season it was a WTF moment of epic proportions, but it would have been a "meh" moment for fantasy. I guess that's the difference.
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I think Fantasy's consistency is underrated. He's been consistently floating around 65-70% wins for close to a year now. He's not really a gimmicky player anymore if he ever truly was one. Yes he has always done a lot of wacky builds but he's always been geared more towards macro play. Fantasy still has his share of WTF moments but he's a really, really solid player. Over the past year he's been the third best player in the world.
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???
What happened to that Hydra guy who won the ZvZ MSL? Champion's curse or something? Fluked?
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On April 05 2011 06:49 vnlegend wrote:
???
What happened to that Hydra guy who won the ZvZ MSL? Champion's curse or something? Fluked?
Read the thread, damn it.
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On April 05 2011 05:57 Mortality wrote:
I think Fantasy's consistency is underrated. He's been consistently floating around 65-70% wins for close to a year now. He's not really a gimmicky player anymore if he ever truly was one. Yes he has always done a lot of wacky builds but he's always been geared more towards macro play. Fantasy still has his share of WTF moments but he's a really, really solid player. Over the past year he's been the third best player in the world.
At the same time, if we look at the results over the last 4 months (since Dec 1 2010, or a starleague "season" (in most cases) length) for TBLS+J, we'll see a pattern. Spare me the "but stats can only..." talk, I realize this, but we can still eyeball it and say, "Should he have lost to this guy?" Cheese happens, I realize, but in the grand scheme we can discount it. I think.
 Stork: 38-20 (65.52%) Losses to Shuttle,  BaBy,  ZerO, Flash, Horang2 (x2), Jaedong, Sea, Stats, ZerO (x4), Fantasy (x3), HiyA, LuCifer, RorO, Shine
LuCifer sticks out like a sore thumb on that loss list. RorO imo is a bad ZvP player (and his winrate agrees). Otherwise, every one of these players is A or better vs Protoss; with 2 "bad losses" that gives Stork a 3% "bad loss" rate on games played.
Bisu: 39-14 (73.58%). Losses to Jaedong, Stats, Leta, free[gm], Stork (x4), Kal (x2), HiyA, Hydra, Flash, Action.
Leta in his current form and TvP reputation is a bad loss. Action is a player Bisu shouldn't lose to no matter how epic the game. That's 2 bad losses for 4%.
Jaedong: 39-19 (67.24%). Losses to Bisu (x3), s2, Flash, Neo.G_Soulkey, BByong, Light (x2), Hydra (x4), Snow (x2), Violet, Stork, HoGiL, HiyA
Except for BByong - and maybe HiyA's TvZ - every single one of those is an A or better, or a Zerg. Even JvZ has to take some losses, and it's hard to predict which ones: JvZ still went 15-7 over this timespan. If we include HoGiL, that's 2 bad losses total, or again a 3% "bad loss" rate; with HiyA it's 3 for 5%.
Flash: 34-10 (77..27%). Losses to BaBy, Tyson, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Hyuk, Classic, Ssak, Kal, Light.
Six of those - BaBy, Calm, Stork, ZerO, Kal, and Light - are A or better. Of the other four he shouldn't have lost to, Tyson's got a mean PvT, Classic has proved he's got good TvT (especially vs Flash for whatever reason), and Hyuk is Hyuk, leaving Ssak as the sole "???" result - and judging by WL playoffs maybe it's not that weird. Anyway, call it 3 bad losses - Tyson, Hyuk, and Ssak - for 7% "bad losses".
I find it interesting that Flash has the highest "bad loss" rate here (kind of sort of maybe), even though he's got the highest win rate by a significant margin.
In comparison:
Fantasy: 39-23 (62.90%). Losses to Jaedong (x2), Stats, Movie (x2), Sea, Reality, Calm (x3), Horang2, Stork, ZerO, ggaemo, Jaehoon, Flash, Tyson, Neo.G_Soulkey, TurN, XellOs, Violet, Modesty.
While the overall record is in line with the four accepted "S class" players of today's scene, the losses are much wilder. Movie, Reality, Horang2, ggaemo, Jaehoon, Tyson, TurN, Xellos, and Modesty are none of them players an S-Class Terran should lose to. (Movie and Modesty I'd accept as okay losses for a Zerg; Horang2 for a Protoss). With not one but two losses to Movie, that's a total of 10 "bad losses" - 16% of games, which is double Flash's and three times higher than the other three, in the last four months.
If we assume that he's played a similar range of players, what that does mean is - since his win percentage is similar - that he's even better against S- and A-class players than Stork and Jaedong at least - but that is exactly what he's accused of: unpredictability. Beat Stork, lose to Jaehoon.
Overstated? Probably, just like Bisu's PvT problems. But like anything overstated, it's got a kernel of truth.
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EPT
